Yamaha to Launch Their Own eMTB Lineup
The Yamaha PW-X motor system.
Yamaha Motors is launching a new division, dubbed "Yamaha Bicycles," to enter the electric-assist fray with their own line of complete bikes. Previously they'd supplied eMTB motors to companies like Lapierre, Giant, Haibike, and more, but it appears they will now also be bringing an in-house offering to market.
Our own Richard Cunningham has been predicting motorcycle companies' entry into the eMTB market for quite some time now, and with both Yamaha and KTM (via Pexco) developing eMTBs it certainly feels like a significant shift is underway.
We've heard many anecdotal stories about eMTB users often coming from the motorcycle world, and Yamaha is clearly taking aim at those riders who will recognize a familiar name. It is possible that motorcycle brands like Yamaha will come in and eat traditional bike manufacturers' lunch with eMTBs. Surely Yamaha has some competitive advantages over the companies that they supply motors to, but will they bring enough bike experience to the table to create a compelling offering?
 | Bicycle makers, most of which are staffed by ex-competitors, will wage a technology war against each other, both on the racetracks and in their boardrooms, and in doing so, will win the battle for the motor makers. (...) When that happens, bike makers will have nothing valuable to sell them that couldn't be produced elsewhere for less. Read more... |
Another major question will be on pricing, which is yet to be announced. Yes, the familiar refrain of "I could buy a motorcycle for that" could ring out—more ironically than usual; but it is possible that Yamaha's economies of scale and production efficiencies could result in lower, disruptive prices.
Their focus here is clearly the US market, where many feel that eMTBs could threaten trail access. While some eMTB manufacturers that are selling in North America have chosen to not address trail access issues, it seems likely that Yamaha will work to help safeguard our sport's most important resource. Conversely, Yamaha being a motorcycle company may fan the flames of opposition to eMTB access.
No word yet on distribution channels, but we expect Yamaha to open accounts in traditional IBDs as well as leverage their existing dealer network.
Will they bring a motorcycle-influenced approach (KYB? Öhlins?) to their suspension? Will they use the same motor technology they offer to other bike manufacturers? Will they make non-electric bikes as well? Yamaha were tight-lipped about their plans, but with Interbike just days away we're sure to get some answers soon.
Press release below.
Yamaha Motor Corp., USA, Entering U.S. Electric Bicycle Market, All-New Prototype Models to be on Display at Interbike
CYPRESS, Calif. – September 12, 2017 – Yamaha Motor Corp., USA, announced today it will enter the U.S. electric bicycle market in 2018. Yamaha will launch its “Yamaha Power Assist Bicycles” brand to the U.S. at Interbike, the largest bicycle trade event in North America. Yamaha invites bicycle retailers to visit its booth at Interbike in Las Vegas, September 20-22, 2017, for a first opportunity to view prototype models, as the company establishes relationships with specific retailers currently servicing cycling consumers.
“Yamaha has been a pioneer, inventor, and innovator in electric bicycles for more than two decades,” said Terry Okawa, President, Yamaha Motor Corp., U.S.A.
Yamaha Motor Company, Ltd. (YMC) launched the world’s first electrically power assisted bicycle in 1993 and has since produced more than 4 million drive units and sold over 2 million Yamaha power assist bicycles. YMC supplies class-leading e-Bike Systems to select OEM partners worldwide.
“Everyone at Yamaha is excited to be entering the rapidly expanding U.S. e-Bike market and sharing Yamaha’s passion for exciting products and legendary product performance, innovative design, quality and reliability with the growing e-Bike audience,” said Rob Trester, Division Manager, New Business Development Division which is launching the Yamaha Power Assist Bicycles brand.
Yamaha’s Power Assist Bicycles are scheduled to be available at U.S. dealers starting in 2018.
Learn more starting September 20, 2017, at yamahabicycles.com and follow on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.
About Yamaha Motor Corp., USA
Yamaha Motor Corporation, USA, (YMUS) headquartered in Cypress, Calif., since its incorporation in 1976, is a leader in the outdoor recreation market. The company’s ever-expanding product offerings include Power Assist Bicycles, ATV and Side-by-Side vehicles, motorcycles, outboard motors, personal watercraft, snowmobiles, boats, outdoor power equipment, accessories, apparel and much more. Yamaha also has facilities in Wisconsin and Georgia, as well as factory operations in Tennessee and Georgia. For more information on Yamaha Power Assist Bicycles, visit www.yamahabicycles.com.
CYPRESS, Calif. – September 12, 2017 – Yamaha Motor Corp., USA, announced today it will enter the U.S. electric bicycle market in 2018. Yamaha will launch its “Yamaha Power Assist Bicycles” brand to the U.S. at Interbike, the largest bicycle trade event in North America. Yamaha invites bicycle retailers to visit its booth at Interbike in Las Vegas, September 20-22, 2017, for a first opportunity to view prototype models, as the company establishes relationships with specific retailers currently servicing cycling consumers.
“Yamaha has been a pioneer, inventor, and innovator in electric bicycles for more than two decades,” said Terry Okawa, President, Yamaha Motor Corp., U.S.A.
Yamaha Motor Company, Ltd. (YMC) launched the world’s first electrically power assisted bicycle in 1993 and has since produced more than 4 million drive units and sold over 2 million Yamaha power assist bicycles. YMC supplies class-leading e-Bike Systems to select OEM partners worldwide.
“Everyone at Yamaha is excited to be entering the rapidly expanding U.S. e-Bike market and sharing Yamaha’s passion for exciting products and legendary product performance, innovative design, quality and reliability with the growing e-Bike audience,” said Rob Trester, Division Manager, New Business Development Division which is launching the Yamaha Power Assist Bicycles brand.
Yamaha’s Power Assist Bicycles are scheduled to be available at U.S. dealers starting in 2018.
Learn more starting September 20, 2017, at yamahabicycles.com and follow on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.
About Yamaha Motor Corp., USA
Yamaha Motor Corporation, USA, (YMUS) headquartered in Cypress, Calif., since its incorporation in 1976, is a leader in the outdoor recreation market. The company’s ever-expanding product offerings include Power Assist Bicycles, ATV and Side-by-Side vehicles, motorcycles, outboard motors, personal watercraft, snowmobiles, boats, outdoor power equipment, accessories, apparel and much more. Yamaha also has facilities in Wisconsin and Georgia, as well as factory operations in Tennessee and Georgia. For more information on Yamaha Power Assist Bicycles, visit www.yamahabicycles.com.
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What the f*ck!?
The sooner gearbox use becomes more widespread, the sooner the technology will improve.
www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiY9p-BoKPWAhVExlQKHc6oAyoQFgguMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denverpost.com%2F2017%2F03%2F21%2Febike-debate-hits-jeffco-trails%2F&usg=AFQjCNEd3lA_tJNz3pBL86rE4LHUquz4kg
www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjZ7vfSoKPWAhVIxFQKHUfOADUQFghRMAc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hcn.org%2Fissues%2F47.12%2Fillegal-mountain-bike-trails-and-a-forest-service-crackdown-divide-an-arizona-town&usg=AFQjCNFQLU9oHUUwgU9pUXDqHErKGYWWXA
Motorcyles and mopeds don't belong on trails with signs like these: www.unicor.gov/shopping/catalog/P7104A.jpg
This should be the norm for new hiking / biking trail signs: cdn.mos.bikeradar.imdserve.com/images/news/2016/06/14/emtbtrails-1465908396589-17uavklof9q1j-1200-80.jpg
Hahah
More lobbying and trail access funding is great, but bigger companies aren't effectively incentivized with the land's best interests in mind. Corporations serve one purpose: to make money. As you say, achieving a positive outcome requires "working with the new kid". And this kid only wants your cash.
"... it just allowed me to mountain bike longer... shredding down."
"It wasn't tearing up the trail at all"
e-Bikes allow you to ride more with less pedal energy. You can cover more trail. Every time you ride a trail, you wear it out, requiring trail maintenance. If you ride 20% more each time, trails will break down 20% faster. If 10% more bikers get into the sport by buying e-Bikes, that increases trail wear: > 30% faster. I'd be comfortable with a $75 per e-Bike tax to cover additional trail maintenance and advocacy.
If trails were uncrowded, if land use was uncontested, and trail options were vast and limitless then I'd say "bring on the e-Bikes!" But trails are precious and limited.
My concerns are:
1) e-Bikes are capable of accelerating trail wear at a rate higher than previous technological improvements, with zero planned support for increased trail advocacy and maintenance
2) e-Bikes are technically motorized vehicles which are currently prohibited on many trails
3) In many areas, especially those in the coastal US, where even acceptance of self-powered mountain bikers on trails is a delicate balance, e-Bikes may increase friction between non-bikers and bikers. (You could also argue that Strava has contributed to that effect too)
How should we treat those issues above? With increased support for trails. In places like the US, that's already hard to come by (decreasing park funding), and the "free market" can't be expected to sort that out to the world's benefit, as always. I don't expect e-Bikes to increase trail advocacy per capita, I expect a decrease, and a decrease in public perception of "mountain bikers".
A professional corporation ready to revolutionise the bike industry? This can only be good. Better products, QC, no changing standards every year and cheaper too.
Downvote, top right if you made it this far.
But you must think we are idiots if you think anybody believes any corporate bs about, "being aware of the issues" and, "already been working with several National sustainability groups and local land managers to help riders where we can. I'm sure Yamaha donated some money to some random organization they never expect to hear from again and I highly doubt anybody from Yamaha is going to be helping to preserve trails and repair the damage their motorbikes (that's what they are) are doing. This is for money, we know it and Yamaha knows it, I'm sure you do too in reality Drew.
Mountain biking is only half about going downhill, the other half is going up hill, via pedalling yourself with your own fitness level. Want to go faster or further? Ride more. Imagine if somebody came out with eRunning? Bionic leg attachments or something. It would completely defeat the point of running, just like this defeats the point of half of the benefit of being a cyclist.
"Bitch
"Pussy"
"Disabled."
Well, now we know how Trump fans feel about e-bikes...
Or in this case why don't we bully the "new kid" until he disappears forever?
Much better choice.
As a disabled veteran let me first say toss right off, you toothless Canadian hillbilly.
I don't want or need an eMTB to be able to enjoy trails in my condition, nor so I want one.
Sincerely,
- all real bikers
So it compensates for a lack of *something* in a rider that was preventing a longer riding day (stamina), and will make it more likely to bonk unexpectedly.
Gotcha.
However, an E-MTB does not have a throttle, it provides assistance to the rider while they are PEDALING. The rider is still proving the majority of the power to the bike and is fairly worked after a ride, what really changes is the average speed and distance covered over the average ride. There are a few people who can really make use of E-MTB's such as but not limited to:
*Trail builders: allows them to get in and out of the work area more quickly with more tools to get more done.
*Older riders: Some old bastards are crazy strong and have wicked bike handling skills, however these people can sometimes have cardiovascular problems that prevent them from getting into the trails they really want to be on.
*Commuters: There are a bunch of people who live 15-20 km from work, an e bike can be the dfference between them riding or driving. I'm all for lower emissions and less congested road ways.
*Asthmatics: A good friend of mine has REALLY gnarly asthma but is otherwise super fit, he can descend for days at a time without any issue on any difficult trail. He can climb maybe 100m before he has to turn arround because he cant breathe an E-MTB would allow him to climb and descent with regular folk who aren't being murdered by their own lungs.
I would really really recommend you try one before you knock it. They have allowed for for more trail work to happen on my local trail network this year then in years previous.
Companies who want hardcore riders to support them have got to take a stand against these bikes in the USA to differentiate themselves from the other soulless corporations willing to risk our entire sport to attract people who don't like to pay their dues to get in good enough shape, break a sweat, and challenge themselves to improve enough to ride without a motor.
To call it a motor bike is a closed minded knee jerk reaction based on fear and an unwillingness to accept something new. That is nothing new to human nature though.
With that mindset even within the mtb community let alone the people against regular mtb's I predict issues for sure.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCmoWO3BXTA
1974 gold cup.
so good.
But you are not making mountain bikes. You are making electric motor bikes with token pedals attached.
Comments?
Better to adapt to change than fight it. The best way to defeat an enemy is to make them your friend!
They. Are. Not.
If you don't pedal, they literally go nowhere, they require manpower in order to move. The assist level can even be turned off completely and you can even still ride it. If you turn the engine off on a motorbike you can't ride it at all.
The arguments against them are so flawed it is laughable.
If Yamaha pushes the power envelope on these bikes...soon bicycle manufacturers are going to be forced to answer back. Next thing you know, E-Bikes are going to be nothing more than E-dirtbikes with pedals...and that is going to cause a major problem with trail access...especially as inexperienced cyclists start to hurt themselves or other trail users.
Standards need to be defined and lines need to be drawn otherwise it is going to ruin it for the masses.
Pinkbike had this article on their site months ago...With Yamaha, a motor sports company, entering the game...sounds like this is how E-Bikes could be evolving...which isn't good...but that is only my opinion.
www.pinkbike.com/news/history-and-deception-opinion.html
First and foremost, this has nothing to do with trail access restrictions, this is about you promoting degeneracy.
All sports require a certain level of fitness. If you don't have a certain level of fitness, you don't deserve to enjoy the sport, period. Shredding trails is not a constitutional right, it's not something everyone's entitled to regardless of how slow, fat or unfit they are. That's my meaningfull message to everyone.
I only moved here 3 years ago from BC, Canada and it has been a real eye opener.
There is a motor plain and simple.
The only time any electricity can get involved is if the bike is powered by a human riding it like a regular bike. Otherwise, it won't move an inch.
Yours Truly
Triggered Mountain Biker
Ive rode one at seaotter. Im just saying there is a emotor on the mountain bike.
And that is what people are up in arms about. I live in California and trail access here is a very touchy subject and this is being seen as an emtb with and electric motor on it regardless if it is just pedal assist. Do i want to lose trail access because of an emtb?? Hell no i dont.
I say this because of the amount of eMTB being sold in the Europe is absolutely mind boggling. 3rd year in a row of ebikes dominating the show floor at Eurobike. I went down to VDS for the WC ahead of Eurobike this year and was blown away with how many eMTB that were out being used at various trails along the drive. Even at VDS, there was a large amount of ebikes on the grounds of the event
ebikes (motorcycles) are already fast and will continue to get faster and lighter. These mixed use trails are not a good place for motorcycles.
As from a local perspective in my area, can you please provide detailed notes on the land access meetings you have attended? Can you provide details notes on Sierra Club and Equestrian perspective (remember, my local trails) on multi use trails and their view on MTBs? Can you please provide notes on the insults, trail booby trapping and overall bike bans proposed by non-bike riders in Colorado? Seriously, all of us here are eager to hear you enlightened perspective. I mean, someone calling another 'Dipshit' surely is at an academic level higher than most of us.
As for the articles, I again apologies for posting the wrong ones. Below are a few with some highlighted quotes for you:
www.coloradoan.com/story/news/local/colorado/2017/08/06/e-bikes-gain-popularity-colorado-land-managers-ponder-future/543033001 --- as a note, this one is a debate /forum with several land managers chiming in.
""As it stands, public-land managers in the Roaring Fork Valley regard e-bikes as motorized vehicles. They are banned on routes where motorized uses are prohibited. Glenwood Springs is easing its ban on city trails during the Grand Avenue Bridge closure that starts Aug. 14. The Roaring Fork Transportation Authority board of directors will consider in August a request by the Colorado Department of Transportation to open the Rio Grande Trail between Glenwood Springs and Carbondale during the 95 days the new bridge is under construction this fall."
www.gjsentinel.com/news/articles/ebike-trend-hits-roadblock-on-local-trails - Reducing and or pulling funding...
"Local commission leaders fretted that GOCO might deny funding for trails, or even worse, force the community to pay back the millions of dollars already invested in the cement path that extends from Palisade to Fruita."
Here is a link for a Google search for hiker, biker conflicts in Colorado. While not a comprehensive list, you can the general gist of the attitude. This is just for hikers, equestrian are a whole different (better funded) group to deal with
www.google.com/search?biw=1330&bih=648&q=hiker+%2C+mountain+bike+trail+conflicts%2C+colorado&oq=hiker+%2C+mountain+bike+trail+conflicts%2C+colorado&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160k1.16724.17793.0.18057.10.8.0.0.0.0.214.762.0j2j2.4.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..6.4.760.RXdTgmf3XUY
So please, tell me again about 1) my local trail access issues (looks like you live in Nevada, I am in Colorado) & 2) Tell me just how I am being "fleeced by the PB idiots about ebikes threatening trail acces...." I welcome you to come on over to Colorado and maybe you can call everyone in my riding groups or locals how we are 'Dipshits' because we are validly concerned about trail access in the hostile environment we live even WITHOUT ebikes, much less as they become more prevalent. I am sure you are a big enough man to do this in person right?
Gear boxes have so much potential, I'm excited about them.
Does it have a motor ? YES
Is it a bike ? YES
Therefore intelligent beings would easily conclude that it is a MOTOR BIKE...Now, closed minded jerks may have a hard time wrapping their heads around that concept ;-)
"Eighty percent of our customer base is gray-haired,”
“It’s very easy to see — they’re going faster uphill than most people,” Tennenbaum said. “It’s becoming more of an issue.” (yet fails to mention exactly what that issue is!)
"A lot of mountain bike purists criticize use of e-bikes to climb a trail. Pritchard said when cyclists are huffing and puffing their way up a climb, it strikes some of them as cheating when they encounter an e-biker covering the same ground quicker and easier. “There’s just something weird that goes on in your brain,” he said."
Look, hikers, the horse folks, and the government trail nazis aren't singling out ebikers, they are targeting everyone on a bike. eBikes are banned from most trails because they are motorized. The clowns building illegal trails and the industry as a whole celebrating the guys that drift every berm and ride like asses are the reason your trails are threatened.
Sell your sb5, you're not a MTB rider anymore, your an ebiker now.
It's not an evolution, that's like saying a trolling motor is the evolution of canoeing.
Nothing was lost in translation here either.
I'm an asthmatic who commutes 12 miles a day and ride my MTB when I can.
I did fold and buy a commuter bike - It's a 7 year old road bike.
I just lift up my skirt, grab my inhaler and ride my bike. It's not hard.
Pinion and Effigear are already producing amazing products. Currently the only real drawback are weight and grip-shifts. (Effigear actually offer a modified SRAM trigger shift option)
Imagine what they'll be like when they're light weight with electric shifting!
Kawasaki's getting ready to build emtb's too! 4life.
Just my .02, but I would say 1.pollution, 2.noise . Would be major trail closures. At least in my area for all off road vehicles.
Spending time with your family doesn't mean that you have to do everything together, I don't take him to my MMA trainings either if I know he'd probably get a heart attack after 5 minutes.
Yamahas engine engineering, which is very advanced, is not involved.
If they have a powerband and a grip shift actuator I will buy one!!! @wakaba:
I have nothing against eMTB other than the possibility of it conflicting with the years of painstaking hard work that has gone into gaining trail access to public lands for us mountain bikers here in the US.
These are not "mountain bikes" in the same sense that I would guess most of us enjoy this sport so passionately and got into it in the first place. YES they have pedals, so they blur the lines between a motorcycle and a bicycle. But they are MOTORCYCLES none the less, and frankly I think this audience could say "they're not for me"
I would also guess that the folks at Pinkbike are peppering in these articles and testing the waters to see how the audience responds. Because after all, eMTB is getting very big and there is the possibility of massive amounts of advertising dollars to be had for them.
LET'S VOTE NOW AND TELL PINKBIKE IF THIS IS WHAT WE WANT TO SEE ON THIS SITE ONCE AND FOR ALL
UPVOTE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE "eMTB" TAKING OVER PINKBIKE!!!
It might result in more trails being opened up and stricter policing of people riding like knobs.
If you like your backcountry, then fine, that's cool too.
How does an eBike ruin things? Do you mean physically? I guess the extra weight on the soil could be detrimental. Or do you mean they ruin it like the naughty kid who ruins a birthday party?
Anyway, you'll get upvoted. Ill get downvoted. The world keeps turning.
Pinkbike is a global community as is the bike community. The bike community needs to move forward as one and not make stupid divisions about what you ride. Too much judgement is placed on what someone rides without asking why. Someone on a eBike could have respiratory or cardiovascular problems, arthritis or old injuries from riding.
Do you want to deny someone riding because they 'shouldn't'?
I think what's immediately obvious in this topic is the discrimination many MTBers have. It doesn't really surprise me as people voted for Trump and voted for Brexit so being introverted seems to be the theme over the last year.
Examples of people who ride with injuries and physical handicaps:
- A one-legged mountain bike racer: www.si.com/edge/2016/05/04/salinas-california-kc-fontes-one-legged-mountain-biker
- And an entire amputee MTB site: www.mtb-amputee.com/main_page.htm
e-Bikes are marketed at a crowd who share these commonalities:
- Are willing to spend a few thousand dollars, similar to a mid to high-performance MTB
- Want to ride farther and/or steeper terrain than they *desire* to pedal on their own
The minor few % in eBike companies' crosshairs are people with significant limitations, short-range adventurers, and trail builders.
If your legs are limp enough to justify motoring your PinkBike, we are sorry for you and you will be redirected to what you're looking for in a few seconds , if redirection doesn't work, please click here.
True, but they could just as easily ride a 50cc pit bike or a real electric motorbike, I have no problem if they ride a gasoline motor bike or an electric one but they must ride them on MOTOR bike trails.
It looks like around 42% of unique page hits daily come from the US with another 18% from Canada - I think you will see that most of the eBike vitriol comes from North America so it makes a lot of sense that the comments are dominated by people who want nothing to do with these things. In fact, I bet that Pinkbike could tell you what the percentage of comment and content contribution is that comes from North America and that it would be higher than the 60% you see here.
There is definitely a sense of NIMBY here from outsiders looking in but it may be justified. The community has struggled for its place in the outdoors and truly not gotten very far by the standards of availability of open space versus actual access. To then have a motorized vehicle (intentionally inflammatory but grammatically correct) attempt to slide in to hard earned access as a pedal bike is akin to the parenting behavior of the cuckoo.
Please don't assume this is a single political side and associate those of us who think electric assist bikes should be treated as a different class of off road recreation with the likes of Trump or Brexit voters or with being snowflakes or whatever you feel is most derogatory. None of those things are relevant to this discussion.
Anyway, as long as the research has not been done, we can only make some educated guesses. Blame my education, but my guess is that bikes with pedal assist won't necessarily cause more trail erosion than bikes without. From what I've read, mountainbikes cause most erosion on the descends and as we know, the motor doesn't do much there so they're basically equal. On the uphills then. That's where a bike with pedal assist performs differently. More erosion? Where I see erosion on the uphills is where people spin out due to insanely light gearing. The motor won't make people spin out. On the contrary, probably. The added weight then. Now I have to admit I don't really know the weight of my bikes. My hardtail is probably 13kg or so, my fully 16 or 17kg. If you'd strap the weight of my Camelbak to the fully, that'd easily reach the 22kg of a full suspension e-mtb. Do we have a max weight for bikes. Are people obliged to be weight weenie, go all carbon and aluminium to stay below a certain weight? It makes sense that a heavier system (bike, rider and gear together) cause more trail damage. Heavier braking, heavier climbing, heavier cornering. But the rider will always be the dominant weight and also see the largest variation. I'm about 75kg, my girlfriend 57, some other dude may go over 100kg. If trail damage is an issue it makes sense to set a limit to the weight of the rider (and their descending and cornering style). The variation of bicycle weight seems pretty irrelevant in that perspective. Finally, do people with e-bikes ride more and does that cause more trail damage? See, I work four days a week. I make less money but got more time to ride. If I needed to cough up for an e-bike (and for all the accelerated wear of components) I'd need to work more. I definitely wouldn't get to ride more eventually.
- eBike prices aren't "prohibitive for anyone except the insanely rich" - they cost the same as mid-grade MTB's. (check out Giant's site for a list of eMTBs $2.3k-6.9k) The mountain bikes PB reviews are usually in the same range.
- Revising trail access regulation is easier said than done. Governments are slow to react. How do you quantify and enforce per-user or per bike weight trail impact? I mean, are you interested in a yearly weigh-in, strava history review, and bike assessment for permission to ride trails? It's easier to regulate based on key differences. (Is it solely human powered or not? is a good starter)
- Having a motor allows you to save energy on the uphills and use it for the downhills. eBikes enable way more downhill miles per effort spent, assuming the same fitness level, hence more erosion.
- In the PB e-bike week there was an article on the added wear of bicycle components like tires and rims. That adds up quickly. And still, from those reviews I got the impression that the e-bike version is often about 2k more expensive than the analog alternative. 2k, that's already a bike for a potential riding buddy.
- Back in the day as a kid watching American movies, often in a panic situation you had someone yelling "but we've got to do soooomething!" which got me thinking if you can't think of anything effective, you may be better off doing nothing at all. What I wrote was meant to illustrate, as you agree, that the things that would make a difference are near impossible to enforce. But that doesn't mean it is effective to call out an easily identifiable scapegoat to reduce trail.
- There are different ways to save energy on the uplift. Pedal assist is one, other means of uplift have already been pointed out. Or just ride a really lightweight XC bike, should help too. Sure it takes move skill but contrary to popular PB-belief, watching the XC worlds lately makes me think XC riders would do just fine on most descends. Especially if they bother to drop their saddles. It doesn't really stand out. Plus of course as I mentioned, I don't think people who ride a bike with pedal assist actually get that much time to ride. They're mostly working class and probably work loads to afford a bike like that. Which implies their riding time is limited. Before I got kids, I rode two hours a day, four or more on weekend days. No way the e-bike rider is going to trump that. If people are making miles, it are probably the late teens and young adults on regular (analog) mountainbikes. And despite their likely contribution to trail use, I wouldn't necessarily call their participation to the sport a bad thing.
But again as I mentioned, most of what we're saying is based on assumption and hearsay. If this is such a huge issue, it really calls for some proper research before it make sense to change whatever regulation.
See, what I'm trying to point out is that the motor may not make that much of a difference compared to an enthusiastic rider on a regular bike. What used to piss me off was races on my favourite trails, actually. First the trails needed to be widened and dumbed down because the racers needed room to overtake. And then the racers came and completely ripped the thing apart. Especially when it was wet, they just dragged the rear brake down the hill instead of being sensitive with the front brake. They didn't care about the trail, they only cared about the race result. So yeah, that's the kind of intensive use that bothers me. I see what it does to the trails and it bothers me. Unlike you of course, I've not noticed any mountainbiker with pedal assist where I've ridden so far. But I don't necessarily expect them to have that arrogant "racer" attitude. After all, you can't prove anything if you've got a motor so there is no point going into racer mode. Unlike racers they won't be too bothered to loose momentum waiting for a safe and sustainable way to pass a slower rider in front. I just think it won't be too bad. But then again maybe experience with people in my region is different from yours.
We seem to be talking past each other, you and I. I think you're right, we're in very different regions. eBikes are just fine for uncrowded trails in localities where there isn't friction between riders and hikers. Substituting electricity for muscle power is more a personal choice at that point.
A different example, I also ride MUni (mountain unicycle). Low risk, low maintenance, good fun. As by law this is a pedestrian here, I rode it on the steeper hiking trails in the dunes. Pace is comparable with a trail runner, erosion is very limited as it is really hard to skid on one wheel. Done it for years, all fine with rangers, hikers, deer and all. I got off or they stepped aside when we needed to pass, smiles, greets, all good. Then one day I was halted by a ranger. I couldn't ride there. Yes indeed it wasn't explicitly prohibited but otherwise I'd tell on Facebook (I don't have an account, but it was his reasoning) that it is nice riding there and next day the place would be flooded with mountain unicyclists. They can't have that. Now I'm not the hot headed type so I never went there again but it is silly as there wasn't anything that justified the prohibition other than a fear for presumed excessive trail use. Luckily on my local mtb trails, mountain unicycling is officially allowed so it is all good. But technically my pace is much more on par with a trail runner than with a mountainbiker.
We don't have much friction between hikers and riders here simply because we don't share the same trails. Officially that is. Yesterday almost ran into a lady on a tight and twisty mtb trail here. There are loads of signs so she must have known. She was wearing earbuds so she didn't hear me coming until I was really close. Walking on the trail is one thing, earbuds is another. i saw her for three laps and there were other riders on the trail so she we must have scared her quite a few times. Not sure why she persisted. But no, friction between rider and hiker here is not common. In the Alps you have mixed trails but these usually also are much more open so you usually see each other from a distance so as far as I know, that usually works out fine too.
David Turner
Turner Bikes
Thank you for this Dave.
If I could start a standing ovation I would.
I just got back from a short ride at La Costa in San Diego. Had an e-Biker sighting. He motored up all the rocky technical climbs like God's gift to the trails, took a casual piss within 10 feet of strangers, and I'm not making this up, when he pointed the thing downhill he reached for the volume button on his backpack-mounted stereo and turned up the wick, so all could hear some random 90's tribute band wailing hot licks as he left a cloud of dust behind his chubby silhouette. It was the embodiment of 'Merica, seeping of casual ignorance and utterly disappointing as a projection of how the community might someday view all bikers.
Thank you for that Dave. We need more voice of conscience. Hopefully it will make some other guys like you to come out of the closet.
After all, big companies already employed the best weapon ever: put a star on such bike and get him shred trails.
Although I find it extremely, awfully ironic how Spec starts their video with Matt Hunter riding an e-bike through a clearcut... it's just a fkng masterpiece.
Had an ebike sighting at Ted Williams yesterday morning. Not sure if it was the same guy but he and his three non-motorized buddies were blaring rock/metal music out of their backpacks. What really pissed me off is that they started climbing UP the switchbacks of mid/upper Sidewalk (i.e. one of the worst places on the trail to go the wrong way) because they were too lazy / out of shape / whatever to take the straight line up the trail. I chased them down (with me riding up the main line) and let them have it purely on the merits of creating a major safety hazard by going up on a tight one-way down trail. Didn't have enough spare breath to launch into a tirade about e-bikes or simply not being a douche by blaring out loud heavy-metal on the trail... We have a fragile truce at TW with the nearby neighborhood and property owners as it is...
@turnerbikes - Its unreal how clueless you are on this topic. Way to completely reinforce the stereotype of the elitist cyclist prick.
"Lazy riders not wanting to squeeze in a couple more rides per week to get their fat asses stronger to hang with their best buds, just more people looking to make excuses for their lifestyle and fix it with a credit card instead of take responsibility and either ride more/eat less or if one is getting old and 'crepid, ride the same amount of TIME and accept we will ride less distance."
This line above that you wrote is the most archaic, misled, uneducated, closed minded, and misguided statement that I have read on this subject yet.
I'm 44, a MTB cycling enthusiast since "88 and far from "lazy". I've riden and raced more hard miles over the years than most and still to this day have a passion for bikes that won't waiver. I'm far from "lazy" and ride at every chance I get. So not "Squeezing in" more rides and not get fitter has nothing to do with my interest in EMTB. I already have earned my turns and suffered more over the years than I care to admit.
But as I've aged, my asthmatic lungs have developed into something an inhaler simply cant cope with. While my legs are still great, my lungs have haven't kept pace and I'm gassed after the first climb these days getting dropped by my group right out of the gate. Am I out of shape and fat / lazy as you state? Not on your life. Your blanket statements are not doing anything to dis prove the pro e-bike stance. In fact your uneducated blanket statements are making you look foolish and are in fact insulting to many e-MTB riders who ride now with "new lungs" with a smile on their faces. I guess your brand doesn't feel the need to remember riding is fun. You seem more interested in making your brand for the "bro down" scene. How very 1999 of you. Good luck with that.
Anyways - I'm sure since your brand is so "core" and legit, you will only start to manufacture bikes with caliber brakes, 3x9 shifting, rigid frames and 60mm remakes of Rox Shocks Mag21's.....because every new feature on your bikes "assist" riders in some form so does this means your bikes are for lazy people too?
f*cking hypocrite.
Please make a choice. Either start a new site with all e-Bike related news on it, or continue to soil this site with e-bike products news and hype. e-Bikes are not mountain bikes, PERIOD.
I understand Pinkbike earns revenue from these media releases, but quite frankly I'm tired of it and I believe it is ruining the industry, the community, and drastically altering the landscape of MTB. Pinkbike is complicit by supporting these initiatives.
If anything e-bikes should be marketed as more sustainable dirt bikes not tried to be pushed down the throats of those of us willing to pedal the way up under our own power.
Signed a PB user since 2001 (current account doesn't reflect it).
Uhh the same way you can look at a human being and determine if they're a male of female based on their biological makeup.
Do I really need to explain to you how a dirt bike and emtb are different? You can google Alta motors and look at an actually electric dirt bike if you weren't aware they existed. And that's not what Yamahas talking about
Gender is not fluid. You're either XX or XY.
An emtb has distinct and obvious differences from an electric motocross bike.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction
Not getting into this with you here it's not the place for it. I'd destroy you anyways so you can thank me now.
papaya = chick
want to be something else? Got to have the hardware to prove it.
Not necessarily a fan just sayin...
Or just waiting for an opportunity to virtue signal?
Here, this might help you: www.genderspectrum.org/quick-links/understanding-gender
But as you seem to enjoy discrete definitions, I'll help you out with a proper one. A bike with a motor is a motorized bike. And therefore does not belong on trails that do not allow motorized vehicles. A bicycle being a vehicle already as it is used to transport people. It's that simple.
In addition, I'm not worried about you "destroy"-ing me. Intellectually I enjoy a good argument. Physically destroying me would be much less enjoyable, but I welcome you to try. Killing you in self defense is legal and, in this case, seems like it would make the world a better place.
Interesting how quickly your "progressive" thinking evolved into implying that because I don't think the same way you do about a particular topic, that the world be a better place if I were killed. Not to mention all your fake science nonsense you keep referencing.
Oh and based on your interesting logic a motorized skateboard should be classified as a car (motorized vehicle) since it has four wheels and a motor. Where you gonna fit the little license plate though??
And yes. I realize you can't change your sex. But we were talking about gender fluidity. I made the argument that gender is fluid, and sex is binary. Any other arguments you'd like to try to change?
Also, anyone who threatens people anonymously on the internet is an ass. Anyone who actually hurts people due to a silly argument on the internet, such as you would theoretically do if you "destroyed" me, deserves to be killed in self defense.
The idea that gender and sex are independent of each other is about the same as believing the earth is flat.
All of the scientific data is clear beyond dispute.
There are however feminine men and masculine women.
So there's biological grounding with variability, as well as a sociological element.
Even if you say gender is perdormative,
Then all its essentially an agreed upon social game. But that's the thing - it's an agreed upon social game.
You don't the adopt the role because it suits how you feel. You adopt the rule so you can use it as a tool to maneuver with in society.
That's why trans men often come out as hyper feminine with high heels, dresses, and makeup. but none of that's biologically instantiated.
But they adopt those roles because people know how to play the game.
Identity is a set of tools to operate in the world. If those tools don't function, you don't have a functional identity.
It isn't something that you put on, because you FEEL that way, it has to be something other people know how to respond to or else you'll become completely alienated.
You dispute the idea that gender and sex are independent of each other, but that gender can be adopted. If sex can't be chosen or adopted, which was already discussed, then gender MUST be independent of sex.
I see gender as a sliding scale, not binary. I don't think people choose or adopt a gender based on trying to maneuver in society. Why would people choose a role that puts them at a disadvantage in society. Traditional roles are what are most readily accepted. That is why people of non-traditional genders hide that fact from society.
And I do agree with you that when your identity doesn't work with how people expect, then it does make people alienated. That doesn't mean it can't be chosen, it just means that it makes getting through society much more difficult.
Good luck with your own journey, hope you complete it before your certainties imprison you permanently.
were not talking about sexuality. Wrong conversation. Keep trying, learning is hard!
- more trail erosion because of their extra torque (not sure how we should think about eagle and front derailleurs then..)
- ebikers are new to the sport and don't know the unwritten rules of mountainbiking leading to conflicts with other users (do novice riders on normal bikes also cause issues?)
- the number of mountainbikers will reach some sort of critical mass (seems probable but isn't it a bit arbitrary to keep out ebikers? Maybe we should ban enduro as well as it attracts a lot of new riders too?).
You'll find way more disrespect to other climbers and to the environment in a local climbing crag next to the road than you will in El Capitan. Same with the trails.
And more affluence of dorks and disrespect for other people and the environment leads to restrictive regulations, it's been like that in every single field I can think about. That's it.
Quite frankly Pinkbike going e-bike is basically admitting that e-bikes are legitimate mountain bikes. Funny times...
Based on PBs coverage of EuroBike, there is a lot of E-bike gear (including "special" "specific" e-bike clothing!) that IS coming. And if PB wants to deal with this level of comments on EVERY article, so be it. But e-bike features will be met with great resistance. Yamaha making an e-"bike" is a joke. It's a way to get around regulations so they can sell motorized vehicles to more people. Yamaha will cash in on the e-"bike" movement. But does PinkBike want to? Or not?
Only problem is that they wouldn't "cash in" because the majority of people on this site wouldn't use the "e" version. No viewers = no money.
1) Keeping visitors stoked
2) Bringing in lots of visitors
Advertising is just the add-on, if nobody comes to the site companies won't pay to advertise, if people don't want to visit the site anymore, companies won't pay.
So by only providing ads to the people that want to see those ads, and not showing the people that don't, PB maximizes it's advertising potential.
Mate, open your eyes. It IS happening.
Beer mfg's sponsor almost every professional sport. Pinkbike IS going the way of every other website that relies on advertising to make money weather you like it or not, to think they wouldn't model it after the guys that exploit it best (FB, IG etc) is crazy.
If mountain bike companies don't care about protecting mountain bike trails, why would a powersports company?
@TEAM-ROBOT: a few reasons.
First, motorsports have gone through lots of land access issues, and Yamaha has supported initiatives and lobbied all levels of government in the past. They've also worked on rider-education. See www.yamahaoai.com or www.marketwired.com/press-release/yamaha-outdoor-access-initiative-awards-more-than-100000-in-q3-2016-2175805.htm or dirtwheelsmag.com/news/yamaha-ohv-access-initiative-awards-more-than-190000-in-first-quarter-2008 etc.
Second, we've done some digging and gotten wind of Yamaha planning to work with some high-level people and putting some serious effort into this stuff. We didn't report specifics because we haven't verified them, but we're doing a lot of work behind the scenes to see if/how people are putting their money where their mouths are.
Third, they actually have the resources and structure to make a real impact if they choose to. Some of the smaller bike brands that are slapping a 3rd party motor on a frame couldn't make a difference even if they tried.
That's not to say with 100% certainty that Yamaha will do anything positive surrounding trail access, only that it seems likely.
CC @bman33 @flipfantasia
Why would they care about land access issues for mountain bikes when they dont produce a non assisted pedal bike. Why would this have any other intention than gaining more access for motorized bikes which is what they make their money on. They are going to sell a teeny tiny amount of these compared to moto bikes. Moto and MTb don't mix on trails.
Report the specifics, reference your sources, your second statement contradicts your article. "Behind the scenes" "gotten wind" give me a break man, your speculating and promoting based on that speculation. I don't believe you, I really don't and no one should. You offer no actual reason they will help mtb, I know pinkbike isn't journalism but man this is some really loose stuff for even and editorial/opinion staff writer. You're a professional do better work
My suggestion, in this HIGHLY "fragile" audience is to get that info, verify it, THEN present it to the people. We've all been f*cked by hopes and dreams "promises" before.
I have no issues with ebikes for riders recovering from surgery or "old" or disabled riders. Problem is I've never seen anyone that appears to be in that category when I see one on the trails.
So agreed. It's embarrassing to see a healthy rider on one. Media squids excluded for event coverage.
Some communities are already posting "no ebike" signs on some of their trails.
I don't know what I just said but I said something.
He could do the climb in 30 mins (it was fire roads) take his battery out for the down and have 99% as much fun as me, and do it twice.
We are in the middle of the Alps though, so trail access isn't really an issue to contend with.
I was very anti them until I saw this. Horses for courses I guess. Where you have to climb 1500m on rough fire roads I can totally see the attraction.
These guys have families to feed and bills to pay, and work in an industry that pays people a modest income to work in a field they love. Never mind that this field of work could be eradicated here in the states by emtbs.
This is not a hill any of them are gonna die on. They'll make it look like they're concerned and deliberate in their coverage of emtbs. But that lip service will be about the extent of it.
These guys aren't gonna miss their mortgage payment because the bike makers have gotten too greedy. And yes, no matter how you slice it, emtbs exist PURELY for profit's sake. "But the sport needs to grow!" "But doesn't EVERYONE deserve to be able to bike in the mountains?" "But they're coming whether you like it or not so SHTFU and sit down!" But my butt!
And here go the bike manufacturers following each other like lemmings into the sea. All the while throwing their idiot hands up in the air tittering "well, everyone else is gonna get rich murdering mountain biking, why shouldn't we?!"
Emtbs are f***ing stupid, end of discussion.
EDIT: and another thing! You've got long time PB users begging you to stop this nonsense. It's not like it's one troll complaining, it's the overwhelming majority of PASSIONATE mountain bikers that visit this site! What do you think pink bike will look like when all of us find somewhere else to get the Real Fix, do you think all those fat lazy weekend warriors are going to keep you guys afloat once they get tired of their emtb? I guess we'll find out...
I just wanted to share my opinion as it appears the vast majority of other commenters have. Electric Bikes are not mountain bikes. They are a completely different machine. By putting a motor on a bike you are making a Motor Bike. Sure it's an Electric Motor Bike, but it's still an Motorbike. So it's pedal assist? Then it's a Pedal Assist Electric Motor Bike.
Am I saying I am against them in general? No. Am I denying that they have a purpose? No. I do strongly feel that Electric Motorbikes should have the same access rights as regular Motorbikes, because that is what they are and I strongly dislike seeing them on the trails that Mountain Bikers built for Mountain Bikes. I don't think we should have to read articles on Electric Motorbikes on the world's biggest Mountain Biking website. I don't expect to read about Mountain Biking on a Motorbike website.
Pinkbike should be absolutely ashamed of itself for not taking into consideration the vast majority of it's readers strong opinions on the prevalence of Electric Motorbikes. It's shameful for a Mountain Bike news outlet to be so influenced by the Electric Motorbike industry. Just because Specialized, Giant, Yamaha or whoever tells you it is a Mountain Bike doesn't mean you have to agree with them, Pinkbike. Shame on you for bending to the will or the greedy Electric Motor Bike manufacturers.
It's possible that as popularity increases and trail use increases that trails will suffer from reduced support and advocacy (can you imagine the folks that buy an electric assisted bike actually using a manual shovel to maintain trails?)
It will take a strong effort of mountain bikers (that's you, Pinkbike supporters!) speaking out, raising awareness, and supporting local chapters to manage the coming e-Bike epidemic accordingly. (treat it like a virus)
We have made so much progress in our state recently, it is hard to see ebikes as anything but divisive and problematic for our sport.
Strava did enough damage to our trails.
We need to build more trails and gain more access not bring more users and lose access.
'To understand why this is important, consider that the solitary reason that mountain bikes gained access to trails where motorized vehicles of any sort were banned was because they are human powered - and it was a tenuous handshake - we were not welcomed by traditional users with open arms. If we had told them up front, that pedaling uphill was too difficult, so we were going to use motors, mountain bikes would have been permanently banned - end of story.'
I think he is correct. What we will now get is ebike trails and non-ebike trails. And in some areas it will be too hard for land managers (since most parks have limited staffing) to distinguish ebikes from standard mountain bikes so they will band ALL bikes from certain trails. Thus less access than we have today.
SO ONCE AND FOR ALL PINK BIKE WE ONLY WANT RACE COVERAGE, AND ONCE EBIKES HAVE TAKEN OVER OUR TRAILS OR REVOCOTED OUR ACCESS TO THEM YOU ARE ALSO SURELY TO BLAME. BUT UNTIL THEN PLEASE LET'S NOT SPEAK OF THESE MATTERS.
An E-Bike is nothing else than a motorised bicycle. Stop calling E-bikes bikes, they are E-Mopeds. If this would be understood by all the Gov. out there we would not have all this discussions. There are different rules and laws for Mopeds and bicycles which would solve a lot of the issues.
I have nothing against E-Bikes for commute or everyday use e.g. for trailer (for kids), shopping ...
But I can not understand the reason for an e-mountain bike. If I want to do off-road without muscle power I can also go and do some MX.
Dear Pinkbike
I do understand that E-bikes are a thing, even in the MOUNTAIN-Bike industry, but as you can see in all the comments please do make an other Site for e-mopeds (bikes) so we all can calm down. You might even get a larger audience with a second site.
Early on I heard rumors of specialized enlisting IMBA to lobby for ebikes. I don't really see anyone talking about it these days though, so who knows if it was true.
Well it is a motor-cycle!
It just kind of defeats a lot of the purpose of being on a bicycle. Why not just ride a dirt bike? Hell, they are probably priced similarly.
But let's say I met a disabled person with an ebike on the trail. Would I chase that person with a stick? Hell no, I would thank that person for helping to keep our trails alive. We don't have any built trails where I live, only old trails made by feet. Many of them are being lost to nature, slowly taking them back and someday they will be gone.
With that being said, I will never go even near an ebike. If my hip breaks down, I will get a new hip and keep on fighting. That's what real swedes do!
If it's not powered by your legs, F**k off. It's a motor bike.
Are cars not cars if they have electric motors?
FFS. This is seriously bad for the sport. Electric motors should be banned from trail centres.
motocross.transworld.net/videos/2017-transworld-slam-alta-motors-darryn-durham/#h4Jh3btBkMqcxJUp.97
To anyone who wants a motorized cycle, why not just pony up and buy a dirt bike? A 2 stroke 125 trail bike is a great place to start, because they are cheap, light, and don't have so much power you'll get into much trouble while you're learning. Not into the noise? an Alta is more costly, but it will depreciate far less than your eMTB.
If you find that there aren't enough places to ride your new motorized two wheeled vehicle, I suggest that you start advocating for more access for motorized use. Here in NW Washington, there's only one place to ride without breaking the law, and I know the dirt bike crowd would be happy to have more advocacy partners in the mountain bike community.
Also I don't think Pinkbike should be admonished for publishing this press release, as it contains a lot of op-ed about what this could mean for the industry and sport.
I'm a "target demographic" for this product, coming off a very severe lower leg break, and I want nothing to do with them. Know what I do when I feel I can't ride any longer? I ride longer! Each day I go further and further
A motor transforms one form of kinetic energy, into another form of kinetic energy, such as the kinetic energy stored in a battery, into the rotational energy of a spinning motor shaft (electric motors).
An engine transforms potential energy into kinetic energy, such as the potential energy stored in a can of fuel, into the rotational energy of a spinning crankshaft (internal combustion engines).
Thus, calling a bicycle with an internal combustion engine a "motorcycle" is actually a misnomer. An eMTB is a true example of the name "motorcycle," but since that name has already been taken by something that isn't actually a motorcycle, eMTB, or some other variation is what we'll be stuck with. Ironic huh?
So when you ride an eMTB on your trail, you're riding a motorcycle in the proper sense.
In my area, I think I have only seen maybe 1-2 E-bikes this summer. As far as I am concerned, they have not presented any issues on my trails. I have also demo'd one this summer - just for fun - and guess what - it was really fun. Was it for me - no, but maybe when I am 60 I might consider it.
Is an E-bike a motor bike - kind of (at least you have to move your legs to get the motor to move). Should E-bikes be on Pinkbike - doesn't bother me - this is really a first world problem!
We get what we deserve. Time to dust off the rollerblades. If your lucky, you'll still be able to mail order a Canyon or a YT in 10 years when eBikes have complete ruined mountain bikers and all the old/feeble/heart conditioned riders that eBikes saved are dead and the authorities no longer care enough to enforce the outright bans on mountain bikes that popped up in the early 2020's.
Making shit up doesn't make it true, even if it's 2017.
becoming motorcycles produced by motorcycle manufacturers. I wonder if they'll evolve into something like Alta Motor's Redshift MX, or sit somewhere in between - MotoTrail..?
Would the pro e-bike folks be OK with gas-powered 250 watt g-bikes? I sure wouldn't! If it ain't powered by you, it is a motorcycle.
I have ridden a couple e-bikes, a Scott hardtail and a Specialized turbo Levo. I totally disagree with your 100 tooth ring on the cassette analogy as the pedalling would be easy but the speed would be slow as hell. But I kind of agree with you but kind of don't when you say "They do not self propel". Yeah, you need to turn your legs, but you barely have to put out any power. It's basically just replacing turning the throttle with your wrist with turning the throttle with your legs. Describing it as merely "pedal assist" is really an understatement as the increased acceleration and sustained higher speeds compared to a regular bike is pretty significant.
Having said that, I can think of a few instances where e-bikes would be great fun and great tools for exploring. Riding them on dedicated mtb trails is not one of them.
Can we all agree that YamahaMotors has big balls for posting and that otto99 is the least liked commentor on this story?
See - consensus can be easy sometimes...
So answer this, you see an "ebiker ebiking his way along" do you verbally abuse him and shout threats? Or is it just for show on forums???
Personally I don't really care what people ride. I would just try to ride as I do. All of the above arguments would say they are shit riders with no power or skill. Should be easy.
Full disclosure. I own one. I also own an enduro bike, a CC hardtail, a road bike, a dirt jumper and a city bike. Until very recently I also owned a full blown motocross bike. I like bikes. A lot.
The is so much false information in the hate being spewed here and there are some facts about PEDAL ASSIST E-bikes that should be set straight.
1. They are motorbikes. They are NOT motor bikes. There is no throttle and you HAVE to pedal to make them go. That's a fact. If there is a throttle and you don't have to pedal then it is absolutely a "motor bike" and should subject to other rules.
2. They will overcrowd the trails! Well then all you of should also boycott any brand the advertises their products for mtb. Since growth in the industry is bad right? There is strength in numbers and we need the sports(s) to grow.
3. They'll wear out the trails!The amount of wear on the trail is the same as any other mountain bike. I depends on your riding style and level of skill. Of course you can get more trails in on a ride. Some trails see high volume and require more maintenance and others don't. That already happens. If you're not doing trails work. You should. The vast majority of riders don't. That's a fact.
4. They're too fast and therefore dangerous. That is also absolutely incorrect. In fact they descend worse ( slower) than a modern enduro bike. At a certain speed (about 15mph for a class 1 e-bike) you get no help from the "motor" anyway.
In addition. Anyone descending on pretty much any type of bike will still be gong faster than any e-bike while climbing. As for people going up "downhill" trails? I regularly run into hikers, equestrians, Dh-er's pushing and lycra clad CC riders going up the "wrong" way all the time. If you're outside of a bike park you always have to exercise caution while descending.
I own one because it's super fun and it allows me to get deeper with more tools and to dig longer on the trails I love.
For others though it can be the difference between enjoying the outdoors and not. Most trails make it impractical for people with disabilities to enjoy them. There is HUGE potential here.
If your argument is that it will allow people onto trails that are not appropriate for their skill level. That's ridiculous. The trail self limits a rider with lesser abilities. I see people get shuttle dropped onto trails that are way over their head all the time.
Resist the urge to have a negative knee jerk reaction and try one...for real, on a trail. Then reevaluate your position.
Ask yourself honestly do you hate them because of what they are or because you feel like you missing out on the fun?
Yes they are expensive. Yes our sport is expensive and you fee like you're getting left behind after every new purchase e or analogue.
There is no real compelling reason for a mountain biker to be against an e-bike. You could say that it's "cheating". It's only cheating of you're competing. f*ck Strava!
I've done lot lot of rides where some were on e-bikes ( due to lack of current fitness for the given ride or injury etc) and others analogue. Everyone got along and had a blast. We're not saving lives here. We're having fun.
This a a time to unite as people who like to put wheels on dirt. There are plenty go people that are opposed to bikes on trails in general. This is not a time to separate into different opposing factions within the sport. Its a time to come together and be a common voice for trail advocacy. Embrace the increase in numbers and resist thoughtless hate.
Peace.
Fact is is that this MTB world is now spewing the hate WORSE than hikers were spewing 15 years ago. Most of you lame pot heads "bros" can't remember that far back I know....but I do.
I wager 98% of the lame haters here have never even tried a pedal assist bike on trail. This means you are entitle to ZERO opinions on the subject. Never tried one? Sit the "F**k down and shut the hell up. Tried one and dont like them? Don't buy one.
The attitude on this site is disturbing to say the least. A bunch of mental midgets with no knowledge or understanding of a product that really is not intended for their use anyways. If one more PB users says "oh but they will really hurt our trails" and then that afternoon goes locking up back brakes to plow dirt around a berm on their "enduro bike" (whatever the f*ck that is), I will literally loose my shit. You ALL are soooo hypocritical and you don't even see it.
"ebikes are wrecking the purity of the sport"? Utter bullshit. I dont think for one second that any 25 year old PB shuttle monkey has any clue about the the "purity or soul" of the sport. The sport was created by those who wanted to access the mountains and have fun with buds. Can anybody on this site name those folks? Didn't think so.
As for the "ebikes are for lazy fat guys who are "noobs" and dont belong on trails anyways" or "if you can't make a climb, this sport is not for you" or "why so we need to grow the sport anyways? My trails are too crowded as it is" Do you hear yourselves? Snobby elitist pricks - every single last one of you. Why grow the sport and include all? Oh I dont know.....maybe because people in the cycling industry like being employed? Do you ass holes honestly think that if bike brands didn't stick their necks out into un chartered waters now and again, you dorks would not have one bit of tech that "assists" you on your rides???
Dear Pink Bike - thank you for remembering that turning over pedals and having fun is what many on this site love. Thank you for covering products and issues from all forms of pedalling on dirt. Please ignore the hate here and carry on. You really should have to pass an IQ test before you get to log on to this site. It sure would make it for a more pleasant experience.
dirtmountainbike.com/bike-reviews/e-bikes/e-mtb-vs-mtb-facts.html
I'm not promoting ebikes in anyway, but people should just have a read of these two articles.
Yamaha have no product to sell a bicycle rider without pushing a needless tech that perverts the spirit of what we do. I don't go to a riding website to look at motorbikes or there bloated mobility scooter owners, and certainly wouldnt entertain a pansies mobilty bike if I wanted back into MX. Certainly the same people who put emasculated men in cheap leather on a Viago are used to entertaining the whims of failed wanna bees with no balls
I would rather suggest eMWP -standing for: Electric Motorbikes With Pedals
The DH tandem mountain bike league is really only missing out on getting into the ebike scene.
You can't stop this, it's happening, so the sooner you get your bigoted asses off the couch (and away from your screen) and get active with local and regional advocacy groups, the sooner a solution can be created to a access issue that isn't going away.
As for Yamaha, they can call their bikes anything they want to.
As someone who has twisted throttles all his life and has tried a variety of ebikes, while I can agree that they are "powered", they have nothing in common with dirt bikes except for the way they will make you grin once you get past your fear of the sky falling.
OK - neg prop me away, but this product isn't going away and people will buy them (period).
I hate ebike, but I'm afraid your comments here are not going to change much...
Make sure your local bike shop do not sell them, make sure you kick ebike out of your local trails. I can't wait to meet one on the trail!
The only way to do this is if trail builders, parks, landowners and government (who will side with $$$) sets the policy now with authority to fine individuals using such vehicles when they enter/leave a trail system and most likely the damage we talk about would already be done.
, but eMTB are not self propelled, they wont spin and churn up the ground, they will go a little fast UP the trail with no speed advantage down (OK- there are and have been self propelled e-bikes for years and I think this is where the confusion is) but eMTB in their core are pedal machines, in fact a pro hill climber will go almost as fast with their abnormal climbing legs on a normal bikes (those people are freaks!!) so how come the fast climbers are not called out as potential trail wreckers?
I dont know when you last rode an ebike or pulled your head out of your mothers arse but the similarities between a so called ebike to a 100cc scrambler is hard to ignore
If that happens then its not the norm at all and you know it - thats twat is not on an e-bike, if he he not using hi pedals, there will always be illegal proper motorbikes destroying trails than there ever will be modded e-bikes, there will always be douches building on private land or pushing the limits of the free access we have, and screwing it for all, - this is our main problem, yes, we build on forestry land but they tolerate it, but when people start taking the piss and building on walk trails or chopping trees, invading farm land or places where we have been politely asked not to do anything - then thats the biggest problem, e-bikes are an excuse for all sides to use as a tool for blame - its those using e-bikes as a tool that need to pull out of orifices and see that the only ones messing things up are rider that dont know where to stop, and think they can do what ever they want to any bit of land -
Everyone seems to skim over the fact that e-bikes are pedal assists and that they are self powered and everyone will mod them and thus all trails will be screwed - someone strapping a 1000w motor to a bike is next level arse for sure
the dude you are on about will be a dick on anything by the sounds, e-bikes for the masses and most users are and will be un-modded and used as intended
omagine the first Nokia brick phones how chunky and had such crude technology, now we have iPhones..
You had it right in 1974, except for the bit about me "someday owning a Yamaha".
c1.staticflickr.com/3/2911/32452083674_3951dd379d_c.jpg
But they have an innovation... a twist ..... instead of the dependency in batterie power and the hustle of charging the batteries . They will offer a motor powered by gasoline!!! So you can just full it on the way to the trail, have some spare gasoline in your camelback for emergency or just pump siome out from vehicles in the shuttle parking.....
They have a new name to it...instead of eMTB they will name it.... mMTB ( Motorcycle MTB) wow!!!
Super heavy duty SIGH
The eBike argument is lame.
Long travel ebikes are actually destructive to the community. They are marketed for "self shuttlers", so you don't have to go through all that pain and suffering of pedalling or driving a pickup out to those difficult access areas. It's kicking sand in the face of trailbuilders who have worked and fought for years to keep something good for the locals, or at least those who are decent enough to ask to be shown things, rather than just demand info.
Hard access is a gateway to gapers. 160 travel ebikes will serve to ruin that. They're fine as commuters, but have NO BUSINESS on the trails!
Gearboxes are rad though. F*ck derailers!
It's apples and oranges... this is not a "mountan bike"and I for one don't want to ever see it on any of the trail networks I ride.
I've a strong disdain for ebikes other than urban / commuting purposes and the last thing I want to see is some dimwit with deep pockets screwing up all the hard work my local trail builders put in (that they'd not be able to get to without help eg eAssist).
It's bad enough having to deal with equine issues and those that are fit enough to get there and obtuse enough not to care about their actions.
I've been an active weekly MTB rider since 1987 and if I can't get there under my own damn power I don't need to go there ~ earn your turns or support your local trail network through shuttle day fund raising events.
Ebikes use a hell of a lot of the same tech as Mtb but they appeal to a new customer type. Suddenly carbon will get cheaper, tires, wheels, maybe even gearbox compatible frames, all getting cheaper!
I don't like razor scooters, but you can bet that little grommet hogging the half pipe draws more public money to the skate park than any trucker hat wearing tough guy. Mommy and Daddy love him and they gave up on you a long time ago.
Rich fat American folks who want to get out and see nature might just do it on an ebike now instead of a Polaris RZR. And when they do they will suddenly care about having more single track to ride. And they actually vote in local elections!
So forget how it cramps your style. Forget how it offends your ipa drinking, $140 helmet wearing, fox sticker in the rear windshield of your Tacoma, dog named sprocket, carbon snorting, cool guy sensibilities and just ride your damn bike!
They don't have the stamina to ride like they used to so they bought an emtb. Now they can ride for an hour rather than 20 min and be blown out.
If it got more people involved in riding mtb bikes ? Isn't that what we want ?
2017 = ebikes
I am very curious how an ebike causes trail damage? Considering it weighs not much more than a low spec enduro bike or the same as a DH bike. Ok so someone can ride further on it. We would all ride further if we had the time.
Im neither for or against. In fact I actually dont care. They are not classed as mopeds etc in law in the UK and I cant see how they would cause access issues.
What i would say is that braking bumps and widened trails around puddles are caused by majority of riders and that actually does cause erosion.
I would suggest that most of you are bandwagoning and actually have no idea what your on about.
Produce a valid argument with backed up evidence of 'actual' increased damage etc and Ill listen.
Until then, emtb is no differant to fat bikes and other niche (well not so niche actually) bikes.
That's an aside though, as the main opposition is not for the (potential) trail impacts that emtbs present--almost no one is arguing against them on that basis. Instead, the opposition is with regard to trail access. From my understanding, it's different in the States compared to most of Europe. We already have very contentious access to mixed-use trails, many groups here would like to see mountain bike riders not allowed on existing trail networks. Putting a motor on what otherwise looks like a bicycle only bolsters an argument to keep bikes off of those trails. Indeed, having a huge YAMAHA logo on the side of your bike makes it that much easier for the unfamiliar to point out such a bike as having a motor. Those of us here that are fearful of losing access to even more trails (happens every season these days) do NOT want to be lumped in with bikes with motors, even if only pedal assist, as it only strengthens a position against allowing bicycle access to vast portions of usable trail here in the US.
I would suggest most of you not living in the States are bandwagoning and actually have no idea what you're on about.
So my comment is valid then. Its all speculation that an emtb (that looks nothing like a motorbike -its an mtb with a fat downtube) 'may' cause access issues. Issues which may exist currently because hardtails, enduro bikes, DH bikes, 26" bikes, 29" bikes etc etc etc have caused or are seen to have caused an issue. Therefore everyone is laying on the hate with little or no substance to their argument.
Whilst I appreciate that Europe has differant access laws (and I live here so dont know the US other than what I read here) having a whinge every time an ebike appears wont help your cause. Not least because I can almost guarantee that most 'critics' have never even seen one never mind ridden one.
Let me tell you what they are like from a Haibike I tried. Its like a slightly heavier mountain bike with a small smart phone on the bars. End of. There is a saying here which I am sure is international. 'If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it probably is a duck'.
There is so much scaremongering and speculation on the issue yet I have never seen one mention of them actually causing an issue in relation to access.
Maybe the solution to the issues in America is to do what the Forestry Commission and other big timber mangers did in the UK and create trail centres. Rather than kick all the illegal mtbers off their land, they embraced them. All over the UK they built carparks, cafes, bike hire shops, family trails, blue/red/black trails, uplifts, horse trails etc and cashed in on it in a big way. The FC would gladly accept an ebikers £3 parking and them buying some cake in exchange for riding.
I realise of course, that I have probably wasted 5 mins of my life typing this but its better than Bake Off or Made in Marbella on tele!
You could have just stopped yourself at the part where you mentioned "...I appreciate that Europe has differant access laws (and I live here so dont know the US other than what I read here)" because that is, as I had already stated, the whole sum of it. You can feel free to familiarize yourself with the battles going on right now in state and federal governments if you so see fit. I can assure you, there is no whining going on merely for the sake of 'hating something new and unfamiliar'. We are losing trails every season, trails sometimes *built* by the cycling community, to be fairly shared with pedestrians and horses, only to have them taken away due to an incorrect interpretation of a law originally written in the 1960s. The scope of the opposition's argument boils down to bikes, though human powered, being 'mechanized transport' and thus not intended to be included in Wilderness areas. So it has been our fight to put bikes in the same category as kayaks, cross country skis, or snowshoes (all allowed) in that they are deserving of inclusion. Now add an electric motor to a bicycle, and all of a sudden our argument gets a whole lot less solid.
This has very little to do with the infighting between mtb'ers and their fragile egos, and a whole lot more to do with mtb'ers and their public perception by those outside the sport. Personally, I could give 2 shits if someone passes me on an ebike, but to hell with the idea that I should lose access to trails I've built and ridden for years so that bike companies can have some shiny new shit to push on people. Is the fear based on 'speculation' as you say? Sure, in a technically pure sense, as we cannot see into the future with 100% certainty. But by that same logic, I am offering you a dogshit sandwich, and you must take a bite before telling me with 100% accuracy that you care for it or not. Saying otherwise is based on 'scaremongering and speculation'.
Why not develop a gearbox (front) - Rohloff/Nexus internally geared rear hub first before these motorized stuff??
They still ride and feel like a mountain bike. As a dirtbike/MX rider they do not resemble, feel or ride like a motorbike in any way.
For me the distinction is clear, I have to pedal the bike and do most of the work, the motor just helps me get up the hills a bit faster.
eMTB ride and feel like a normal MTB, a bit heavier which I prefer as they track the hill better and feel more planted. I live in the UK so there are zero issues with access, and to be honest very few people even notice the difference.
someone once said: If man was made to fly, god would have given him wings......
Luddites...
T
Lets just move past what "presumed" trail damage could happen, or the fact that someone might pass you on the trail and god forbid not be working as hard as you.
These bikes and yes they are still bikes, could help with rehabilitation after injury or just to simply get the less mobile that want to ride but have never been able to out on a trail and your going to piss on that? WHY?
*Except if you want to do something someone doesn't want you do do, go merica!!!
Does this mean that Yamaha will have a Distribution Center in Switzerland in the near future?
Or maybe even a service center?
In Switzerland Giant/Haibike eBikes with Yamaha are very popular and I think one of these things will help the Swiss market.
Let me know
The approach of some many people here is simply making it easier for ebikes to come in as they get victimized by your bullsht. You simply put yourself in "haters" basket. As simple as that. We need people who can formulate arguments not offended snowflakes.
E-bikes are coming. Big time. And they are a problem, Closing your eyes and throwing f*cks is kind of making it worse. But it's a matter of intelligence to realize it.
buyvintage1.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/1936_terrot_14.jpg
They just replaced the engine with an electric one.
I've ridden a couple e-bikes. To be honest I reckon there's a couple instances I reckon they'd be great (for me personally), neither of which are on dedicated mtb trails though.
I think the biggest problem is one people don't like to admit as it comes across as being elitist. With people touting eMtbs as great for growth of the sport it leads existing mountain bikers to question what sort of people it will attract. I mean, it's not like mountain biking doesn't already exist. If it takes an eMtb to attract someone to the sport because "it's easier" what sort of responsible trail user is that person going to be. Are they going to be the sort of person that is always too busy to attend dig days but always has time to ride. Are they going to have an appreciation and respect for the work that goes into the trails. How about their interactions with other riders not on ebikes, will the ebiker understand the effort a mountain biker is putting in to get up a climb when they catch up and expect them to yield...
Then there is the power issue. Regulations in most countries of Europe are clear: max 250W and only pedal activated motor, no idle, no throttle. Now e-bike makers fit their bikes with motors ranging up to 1200W. It is written in the deep monkey part of human brain to makes things easier and cheat the rules. People WILL hack the power control on these things. They just will.
In most of Europe Police is unable to execute the ban. There are commuter e-bikes swishing by me at +30 every now and then. Police does nothing.
It is an extremely deceptive scheme that bike companies are pushing. Not only them, moto companies are also working on short range light weight motos, they see the niche. They recognize the fact that many people are put away by the fact how heavy motorbikes are and how easy it is to get seriously injured when you crash on them.
Nevertheless, this is coming. An idea that many Pinkbike keyboard warriors have to throwing hateful words at the will stop it is just idiotic. We need to find ways of dealing with this problem. We cannot separate ourselves from ebikes either. Bicycle companies make them. People dressed up like MTBers ride them. Many haters here will jump on the bandwagon sooner or later as they get passed by ebikes on climbs.
We have to figure out how to deal with it. It's damn hard. I think the good start would be to make companies fit motors with output no stronger than 250W, if they want to call it a power assisted bicycle.. Another is: force evike "community" to create their own trails, if moto guys could do it, so can they. No motorized vehicle access on hiking trails and leave mtb community a freehand to decide which mtb trails are ok for ebikes to ride on.
I could not agree more. Applying the throttle in a weird way and putting it in a weird spot somehow helps convince people in their heart that it's a mountain bike.
Now a ban on E-bikes is extremely difficult to execute. The dangers they cause are real. "Analog" Mountain bikes cause enough trouble. There's enough inconsiderate dick heads out there, never slowing down, out on a futile pursuit of their stupid brain only knows what kind of achievement. We are already a pardoned, tolerated shit kid in the family. We are like a weed smoking kid in a catholic family. Now your Coke sniffing dad is coming for the party, he will talk horrendous crap, take your bed, and piss in it, then possibly make everyone kick both of you out.
Now take that to the woods... you know what annoys me? That it is us MTBers that will have to clean their sht. As if we didn't have enough bad weed of our own.
@lumpy873 - it will take people years to get used to bikes riding uphill as fast as downhill... as I wrote above - we have to clean their poop. I truly welcome e-bike club in my town. Please, advocate for trails, just sort your sht out on your own. I don't want to be apologetic on their part. Well I can wish whatever I want.
Bike companies have done little if anything to support any sort of trail advocacy anywhere in my hometwon in Poland or where I live in Sweden. It was the bike shops that support competitions and advocacy. But big companies just pump out stuff and wash their hands from it. It's like selling dynamite to kids who want to go fishing. Like pharmaceutical companies going bananas on antidepressants - We all know that. Does that mean we shouldn't talk about it? I mean... honestly, I am amazed that so few amateur mountain bikers take steroids and other drugs. I can't get it. I want to get testosterone.
then install a throttle (likely to be found real soon on aliexpress)
Finally!!! Come on Yamaha and hurry up!
ebike-mtb.com/en/e-mountainbike-highlights-eurobike-2017/5
Info on the motors
some things dont need to be tried to know you dont like them.
I think the same thing will happen for eMTB vs MTB. People will one day share the same trails and forget there ever was a controversy.
I will ride an MTB as long as I can, but when I get too old and my legs and heart can't follow my spirit, I will switch to eMTB.
BTW, I've seen a few people with disabilities enjoying MTB because they have power assist. I think this is wonderful.
Whinge whinge whinge...... then whinge some more on any article about new 'traditional' bikes too..... ooooh it looks awful.... oh it's too expensive and for dentists....... why is this part not available for my ancient 26" bike.....
Blah blah blah. Get over yourselves for f*ck's sake.
Everyone needs to be careful to consider a broader scope on this issue.
I, however, can think of only one time I would have personally benefited from an e-bike, the mountain variety specifically: A close friend who works a well paying job, loves to snowboard, looking for new summertime hobby... i'm like "hey dude, theres a demo day coming up, why not come with me and give mountain biking a try, you'll love it"... demo day rolls around, everything is going well, until we're 15 minutes in and he's on the brink of a heart attack... had he demo'd an e-mtb that day, I would have been able to enjoy more than 15 minutes of trail, served by a 2 hour commute...
Would I get one? Maybe if I make it to being an old man i'd tool around town on one, sure, they're pretty fun.
We are a retirement community mostly so average age is close to 50. Historically there has been very limited outdoor activities available because the retirees weren't interested. Especially mtb trails. (We are just now getting our first trail)
Ebikes have turned this on its head. Suddenly a 65 year old couple has an outlet to get outside and enjoy nature! Ebikes are selling like hot cakes and land developers are eager to say ebikes are allowed because it gives them numbers. On that same token some people are just lazy but enjoy good trails. Ebikes allow them to get there at their own level of effort. Of course we don't have the same issues with land managers like out west but with the insurgence of ebikes, us traditional bikers are enjoying increased visibility and suddenly we have TONS of proposed trail projects that are being considered by many large agencies. TN state parks has several new employees who are huge Emtb fans and are working to build HUNDREDS of miles thru the state of legit single track that allows these bikes. Mostly because they are becoming so popular and getting more people outside.
Bottom line is It has sustained more bike shops, gotten more trails built, and brought more visibility to the entire sport. You sure won't find me riding an electric bike but I fully support the movement for these and many more reasons! Sorry bout your butt hurt
This is clearly targeted at a younger, fit and dare I say a little wee bit daredevils audience :
www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/mountain-bikes/electric-mountain-bikes/powerfly-fs/powerfly-7-fs-plus/p/2932700-2018/?colorCode=black_grey
I see guys well into their 60"s riding the bike park on DH bikes...you know why ? Because they've never stopped exercising and they are still able to ride hard...If some out of shape retired dude decides to ride a bike to enjoy the outdoor, Its most likely going to be on roads, path or reeeeeally gentle trails.
Still the same platform. Motor is now attached.
Does that mean the skateboard should be considered a car because it has four wheels and a motor?
This is following the logic of all you bright PB turds
Just looking out for y'all I don't want you to be on the wrong side of history.
Just saying.. don't talk shit if you can't even ride
I slap you with my e cock next time i pass you going up the trail
Just saying.. don't talk shit if you can't even ride"
Now that's some funny shit. I remember seeing leelau posting in the NSMB whistler/north shore trail building forum starting back in the mid 2000's, when I started riding. Somehow I doubt obvious troll is a better rider than a passionate builder and rider who's been a noticeable part of the community for over a decade.