The details about XTR were announced back in May, and I was able to get an initial ride on the group in June, but as of right now the only people in possession of the new parts are athletes. That means you'll need to wait a while longer before reading any sort of long-term review, but in the meantime, there were still a few lingering questions related to the new parts, and Shimano's development process in general.
To find out the answers, we sat down with Nick Murdick, Shimano's MTB product manager, amidst the hubbub of Crankworx Whistler. When will XTR actually be in stores? Have there been production delays?
Nope, we're on target. We had a fire in April that affected some of our surface treatment processes – that bumped it back a month from what it was going to be. Since the launch timing it's been consistent. Richard Cunningham [Pinkbike technical editor] was there in Japan to see when they were figuring out the actual mass production processes on the cranks; we make a couple, and then run QC processes on them, make a couple little tweaks, and all of that stuff is part of the normal plan. It's when it goes through those QC processes, and then we find a big problem that can't just tweaked away, that's where the delays come from, and we haven't really had anything like that.
I don't want to get any more specific than fall delivery, because I don't want to bum anyone out if it's just a week or so afterward. Fall is technically September 21 – December 21, but I would be disappointed if it wasn't shipping until December.
Keep in mind that our factory's in Japan, bikes are generally getting assembled in the US and Taiwan, and it takes a month for them to cross an ocean. So whatever date I give you could be any point along the way – what really matters is when you can go into a bike shop and buy it.
What's the 2019 / 2020 OEM landscape looking like for XTR? How is the group being received by manufacturers?
It's about what we expected – we knew that there would be challenges with how quickly we could make it. When we're talking about model year 2019 spec, it is what we expected it to be, but some big companies often have to hold off until the next model year, so we're not really going to get a full selection of XTR availability in a complete bike package until model year 2020 stuff from some brands.
Anyone who's shopping with somebody who does a kit build, like Yeti or Pivot or Niner, somebody like that, then that's a flexible enough model that they can just start getting kits in, and that just gets added to the menu, and you get whatever bike you want. Those will be available right away, and there are plenty of sizes of companies that will do a mid-year introduction of an XTR bike.
Shimano's Scylence freehub design.
How are you going to translate the freehub design to a lower pricepoint?
We definitely confirmed before locking in that design that we would be able to make at least an SLX price point version of that hub, and that's going to be relatively easy – we should even be able to go a little below that. We wanted to make sure that we weren't going to make something so complicated that you could only do an XTR version of it.
There were some versions early on that were a way more complicated spline pattern. It's a relatively simple design – they're squared off splines and they're machined into the aluminum.
Now we can do a freehub body for the same price as a freewheel, and we continue to lower that pricepoint over successive generations. This year, for anybody shopping for a new 7-speed mountain bike, now you can get a cassette freehub for the same price as a freewheel from us. So that's how low of a price point we can hit with that old spline pattern that's been around since 1978. It's forged out of steel, and there's very little post-machine work that needs to be done to it.
This new one, we could make it out of steel, but it does require a lot more machining after the forging, so it kind of has to be made out of aluminum, because forging it out of steel, and then machining that steel would be more expensive than just making it out of aluminum. So you can kind of picture the price points that would get an aluminum freehub body.
Why invest in a front derailleur? Why spend all that money on the development, tooling, engineering?
There still is a significant part of the world's population that wants a front derailleur on their bike. It's surprising anytime we hear it, especially living and riding in North America. Overall, it's big enough in parts of Europe to get some OE spec.
All of us at some point over the last couple of years were like, “I'll give this single chainring a shot,” maybe for a lot of us, you could see the potential, but it wasn't quite there yet, and now we're pretty much there.
There are still some compromises – your top speed is lower with a single front chainring typically than it is with a double, so if that's something you care about because you're somebody that can sprint at 38mph on a mountain bike, or you just like being able to pedal back to your house.
If there's somebody that still feels like it's the right group for them, then we don't want to be the ones taking that choice away. That's why, from the beginning, it was worth investing the money to try and make an even better version of a double than we had made before. The compromise that I was speaking about was that some of the gear steps have to be a little bigger when you're talking about a 10-51 cassette in order to get that range; if you want that range without the compromise in gear steps, then that's what a double is there for. If a 10-45 is enough range, then that's the cassette with no compromise in gear steps, so you can run that with a single front chainring, and that's considerably more range than our 11-46, our widest cassette currently.
Shimano increased the number of athletes involved with the testing of the new XTR, a departure from their previous methods.
The mountain bike scene is a little different in Japan compared to, say, the United States. How do you take the lab work from a place that's not known for having a strong mountain bike culture and validate and learn from it?
There's a lot to it, and I'd say it's very different from the way a lot of other people do things. Our R&D department in Japan has really come a long way in the last couple of years. We have one program where engineers will get sent out to work some place in the market somewhere, and just kind of learn about what it's like to work on bikes in a bike shop. I just met the current people that are in North America this year at Mont-Sainte-Anne – they'll bring them out to events too. There's an engineer working at a bike shop in Minneapolis, and one in Toronto; there ends up being a lot of bike builds and derailleur adjustments, to help understand why it's important to make it easy to get the cable out of the shifter and stuff like that, firsthand stuff.
The advanced version of that is we have engineers that will come over and work in the US office for maybe two years. The guy that did that a couple of years ago ended up being, a couple of steps later, basically being in charge of R&D of the XTR group, so he had a really good understanding of the US market and riding style, and it really heavily influenced the technology they came up with for the group.
They'll start collecting this technology, the lab work, for years ahead of time, and when they feel like some technology is ready it'll get put on the spec sheet for potential inclusion on the next group. Some stuff makes it, and some stuff doesn't, but the new brake lever design, with the inboard clamp and the extra bracing position, that was one of the things that came out of that R&D project, and basically specifically from that guy who was able to come into our market and recognize what the problem was and how to fix it.
He's led the charge of getting his team out and riding on weekends. Where a couple of years ago maybe a couple of them had bikes and you could see there little bike workshop area, it wasn't anything really impressive, now you're seeing a fleet of cool Yetis, Pivots, Intenses, and stuff like that. Those guys are going out and shredding pretty hard on the cliffs of Kobe, Japan, on the weeekends; they've taken me down some of those trails and they're pretty terrifying – slippery and steep and roots and rocks coming out of nowhere at you. So that has helped a lot, and I'm pretty stoked to be working with a team like that now instead of a bunch of people who just live inside a computer.
Athletes had more involvement in the development of the new XTR than they typically have in the past. Can you explain that a little further?
We've got a couple of full-time test riders that basically live in secrecy; for forever we've had two legendary guys, Joe Murray and Paul Thomasberg, and we added another guy in Europe this year that's a former World Cup cross-country racer, Emil Lindgren. That's the core team of full-time, super secret test riders. We'll get together and then product managers like myself will hop on and ride some stuff too; I can't push as hard as Jesse Melamed can, but I can tell if something sucks, and Joe Lawwill helps us a pretty good amount with that kind of confirmation.
We really did try to make it a focus this time around to do a lot more athlete testing than we normally would have. We didn't just want to use athletes for confirmation of the final product – we wanted to get people who could push at the current top level harder than somebody who's a retired pro, whether that's Joe Murray or Joe Lawwill – neither of them is Jesse Melamed. So the early brake test was with Andrew Shandro and Thomas Vanderham, they did a lot of back and forth testing of prototype brakes to figure out what the right amount of power and right amount of modulation was.
The brake testing ended up being the most important thing – for whatever reason, it seems like you can develop a drivetrain in a computer a lot easier than you can develop a brake in a computer. It's almost like developing a drivetrain is a science and developing brakes is an art. You kind of just have to make a couple and rely on trial and error.
| The brake testing ended up being the most important thing – for whatever reason, it seems like you can develop a drivetrain in a computer a lot easier than you can develop a brake in a computer. It's almost like developing a drivetrain is a science and developing brakes is an art. |
Did increasing the role of athletes pay off? Will that continue to be the trend for the future?
We want to go even further in that direction. Saint would be the next thing that's got new technology going for it. We'll have a lot of questions about if that brake is still up to the task of modern World Cup racing, because things have evolved a lot – bikes, riders, courses have all changed over the last couple of years. We ask a lot of questions, and then we come up with some theories, and then the next step is to come up with some prototypes and let the athletes start playing around with them.
The price of XTR puts it out of reach for many riders, so when will we see new XT components hit the market? Has the timeline that Shimano traditionally follows been altered at all?
We have a really predictable product cycle – you can kind of expect that we're going to launch something every spring.... and that's about as much as I'm allowed to say.
I think it's just really hard for us to change. We would love to be able to have our delivery of new product match up perfectly with the launching of a new Trek or Specialized bike or something big like that, but from the day that we make the final decision, which is on a pretty set schedule it's realistically, if we wanted our timing to line up we'd have to delay stuff. There's no way you can bump it up...
And we don't want to be holding back on product in order to make it line up with those kind of cycles – I think that would bum people out even more. Maybe we miss half of a model year, but like I said, then it's just early for next year.
Shimano brakes, on the other hand, have never let me down. Elixir, code, and guides have been utter failures and often time catastrophically, so I will stick with Shimano in this department.
Cassettes don't seem to matter either way. Neither do chains.
Just my experience with it.
I plan to ride these for a long time, if they remain solid, but the drivetrain I will swap for new Shimano.
Had some BR-M525 on an older bike that I haven't bleed in 6 years and ran perfectly.
Next summer it's gonna be Hopes or Formulas.
As for mishmasing, I just think having the full XTR works with the hyper guide plus cassette is a bonus over an sram egale cassette. A 12 speed xd casstte for instance will probably work just fine, But personally my fantasy is a full XTR groupset mounted on trusty hope hubs...
XTR is (to use the cliché) for dentists or pros, but in a year or two when the XT version of this stuff comes out, I'll probably get a bike with that groupset. Until then I'll stay on my hard used but utterly bulletproof XT M8000 stuff. Brakes that won't fail in the heat and Shimano shift quality is worth holding off on the 12 speed (and new binders), at least for me.
SRAM pushes new stuff out faster, but has more QC issues. They do innovate, and J. Boobar should be nominated for sainthood for developing the Pike chassis and internals, but when it comes to shifting and stopping, the Japanese S has dialed in the reliability.
Shimano cassettes might weigh more than SRAM ones, but the shifting is already notably cleaner. Sounds like this generation of Shimano stuff shifts even better than current 9000/8000/7000 stuff.
I just got gx eagle stuff for like $350 and it's been unbelievable for the money.
10 speed shimano stuff was the bees knees, as was the m785 brake. Hopefully 12 speed xt/slx are as good as GX eagle or 10 speed shimano and I'll give them another shot. Until then I'm staying with gx eagle.
Now the entire internet will know who to blame if they don't like the new Shimano brakes.
...
your top speed is lower with a single front chainring typically than it is with a double, so if that's something you care about because you're somebody that can sprint at 38mph on a mountain bike, or you just like being able to pedal back to your house."
Shimano gets it.
But you're right - not sure why you'd be willing to get to 40kph after bombing down he trail.
I probably spend just as much time greasing these shimanos as I do trying to shut my hopes up. Cup & cones usually last longer than cartridge if looked after touchwood.
Looked at them but total price and weight is just to high.
Of course there is and always will be! Thank you Shimano for developing side swing - it works great Keep'm coming!
SRAM might fool people in North America to 1x but in Europe we still want to have ability to run 2x.
I don't, don't speak on my behalf! Rude.
Second thing is: you're not obligated to use FD but in my opinion producers should be obligated to give their customers ability to use FD with their frames. In my FS Author Patriot EVO I can use 2x but at any moment I can remove FD. It's just simple thing of true ingeneer who can desing frame properly. If frame is not compatibile with FD for me it's obvious that producers chose "the easy way out" saying go f@ck yourself to potencial buyers who want to have freedom to choose their drivetrain.
And on the top of it are quasi informational web sites who try to fool you that the only way is 1x which is obviously a stinking lie.
From the other point of view: recently my friend got an XC 29er (while being hetero :> 1x11 with 28t up front. Bike was perfect for mountain rides but since he's living in the flats he just couldn't live with such gear ratio so I swapped him to 34t. It's nothing uncommon these days but he said that 2x would be perfect for him out of the factory having faster gears for top speed with avability of granny for mountains etc. and this is exactly my point: 2x is much more universal for every day life. BTW: sram chain whell was incredibly fking EXPENSIVE! Fortunately I've found locally alloy version for less than half of the price of sram.
FD from Shimano are so good now days, especially with Side Swing, that so called "reliability question" is no more. If you don't want to use thats fine by me but I won't buy any frame that has deleted FD option as I ride in very different conditions and I want to have my low range provided by 2x FD.
One of the biggest reasons I love 1x is because for me at least it makes the bike more fun to use.
The problem doesn't lie in the back but in the front with 1x drivetrain. On paper you get the range with even with 42 at the back but in reality it doesn't work as "shown in the commercial web sites"
@Balgaroth for me its the other way around: the FD shows you that most of the "bike designers" were very weak designers as they sstruggle to cope with FD especially with FS frames.
Definition of liberty is in the desing that lets you choose what you want to bolt to your bike.
Second thing: please tell me how much heavier is rear triangle because of fd and I'm expecting some numbers from you.
Intelligent engineering is the way to go, not deleting drivetrain components.
Now If I refuse to give up on my affordable price-point and I refuse to give up weight, no company is gonna be able to make a Meta V4 with the current characteristics AND a FD. So I'd rather give up on a FD.
It's a bit like the old saying: "Strong, Light, Cheap, pick two"
My opinion, on the other hand is quite different because I have a FS bike thats has good suspension and FD as an option and rear trianlge is stiff and rides great. If frame is designed properly it's collision free while still having 160mm of travel without any addtional cost to it.
I'll stand by my opinion and maintain that good frame gives you possibility to use FD if you want it.
I don't understand what you mean by "doesn't work in reality", my 1x works just fine both on paper and when i'm on my bike.
Its also ok, that its more fun for you but I still want to have all my gears for any situation, with touch of a front shifter instead of changing front chainwheel and 1x doesn't provide what I want.
Again, I don't get confused, it's just nicer to use. Just like you can lower a quick release seatpost pretty easily, but still, a dropper is nicer to use. Or you can ride a cheap bike and it will do the job, but a more expensive one is nicer to use.
I still don't understand what you mean. You said even with a 42 you can get the range, but it doesn't work as "shown in the commercial web sites"? What does this mean? Gear ratios don't change from paper to real life.
Why would you change the chainring? You have a cassette that provides a big range, and you select a chainring for your riding style, and stick to that.
Have you actually used a gear calculator to see how much range a 10-50 provides compared to something like an 11-42 with a 36-26?
If not, here it is:
36x11: 3.27
32x10: 3.20
26x42: 0.62
32x50: 0.64
At the top end the difference is 0.90km/h with 29x2.3 wheels, and at the low end it's 0.26km/h...
My man got 28t in the front stock and it was way to soft for the flats so he was force to change chainwheel to bigger one. With factory 2x he wouldn't have to do a thing with his bike.
I don't base my opininon on gear calculator but on my riding experinece and thats why I prefer 2x setup for mountain exploring. If I was a person who constantly rides the same places 1x would have much more sense for me.
Your "man" wouldn't have had to change the chainring if he used a gear calculator and got the proper chainring and/or cassette the first place. User error, simple as that.
I just gave you an example that a single 10-50 cassette can provide as much range as a
common factory 2x, yet you continue saying "1x is only good for riding the same places". That makes zero sense.
What kind of 2x do you ride? 52/10 with 9-55 cassette or something?
Quite simply I don't think you understand how gears work. That's okay, you go by feel. But then don't try to talk crap about something if you don't even understand how it works.
I said it once and I'll say it again: I never judged anything by using things like gear calculator but only from my personall riding experience. Obviously your 1x fan and that's probably good for you but please don't force me to love it because you live by gear calculator.
For my type of riding in very different terrain 2x is the way to go and I'll stick to it so I only look for frames with FD compability.
You still go on about chainging chainrings, but don't understand that a 1x12 has as much range as most factory 2x11 setups. How can you just skip this, and not acknowledge it? I know your english is a bit rough but come on.
Again, two very common factory options:
32T with a 10-50:
0.64 low
3.20 high
36/26 11-42:
3.27 high
0.62 low
How can you ignore this? These are two very common factory options, with VERY similar, pretty much the same range and gear ratios, why would you need to change the chainring on the 1x? Why is 1x limiting, when it has as much range as a common 2x11? Please explain yourself.
Ignoring gear ratios is probably the stupidest thing i've ever heard, and i'm pretty sure you've tried 1x once on your "man's" bike, and that's it. So you go on about saying "personal (or personall as you would put it) riding experience" but i'm pretty sure you have VERY limited, almost zero experience. The guy above me was right, simply resistant to change. I know a lot of guys like you (sadly I actually worked with some), some are even stuck further in time, somewhere back in the 80s. They think all new modern stuff sucks, hydraulic brakes are the devil, and bikes should only be made out of steel.
Anyways, this is getting boring, have fun and I can't wait for the release of your revolutionary drivetrain that was designed only by feel and zero math.
@TheJD
I ignored the XTR 2x for a reason. Our friend here probably has a 2x10 or a 2x11, and as he says it's absolutely perfect, he can climb mount everest then overtake roadies at 80km/h on asphalt.
If someone rides a 2x today it's probably not a 2x12, it usually has an 11-42. If someone is on a 1x11 it's most likely a 10-42, so 1 bigger jump on the bottom of the cassette, and if someone is riding a 1x12, it's the same thing with an extra 50T.
So smaller jumps... Yeah one smaller jump at the high end, but that's about it. Unless for some reason you have something like an 11-32 on your MTB.
And sorry, i'm all about riding for fun, but if you actually need 2x12 you might want to think about your fitness.
Secondly: my exemple was 28x42 1x11 29er so please stop talking about 1x12 with 50t. I explained my view over that factory setup with all its limitations which lead to changing front chainwheel for 34t to get higher top speed for everyday use.
Talking about drivetrain is very much a personal preference so I don't think you have the ability or will to accept my point of view no matter what, and also I find you attitude fanatical to say the least. You live by gear calculator and I choose the things that fits my riding style. I won't forbid you using 1x but I still want to have choice to bolt on FD to my frame and thats the whole point of this discussion.
Another thing: if FD supposed to be a dead end please explain me why Shimano, the biggest drivetrain producer, still develops them and offer for sale with almost all of the groups? My opinion is that people still want to use FD and I won't change in near or not so near future.
@HollyBoni: Yes I understand. 2x11 has just one advantage over 1x12 or E13 1x11 and that is the steps between gears, which are soo big on 1x for riding on flats. When you mention 1x11 with 10-42 or 11-42 cassette, then the steps are the same, but you have still have 2 rings which give you bigger range. Bigger for flats and downhill while smaller for uphill.
It seems to me that most people here are seeing just a pure enduro, trail or xc race use, but there are people who ride xc, don't race and don't ride in mountains, where you can only go uphill or downhill. When you are riding flats on a fast bike, then you need those extra fast gears, because when you are going on a 3 % downhill and it's not technical or twisty, then you would spin out on a 1x. I have eagle with 34t ring and when I am going 45 kph I am spinning out.
Using this factory setup as an example is your biggest problem. You say 1x doesn't have the range and you need to change the chainring, but you base this on 1 (that's one) bike. You can't say that 1x doesn't have the range, when nowadays most decent bikes come with a 32T chanring and a 10-50T 1x12, and now you can get a 11-50 12spd at NX level. I could say that 2x doesn't have the range, because i've seen a 40 year old road bike with a 52/42 crankset and a 14-23 cassette!
I can't accept your point of view when you deny math. As Balgaroth said, that's like saying the Earth is flat. I also can't accept your point when i'm a 100% sure you've never head any kind of 1x on your bike, let alone a 1x12. All of us came from 3x and 2x and we all know that system very well.
Yes, I use a gear calculator, and that way I have a perfect 1x setup for where I ride and how I ride. Your "man" didn't use a gear calculator, and he had to change his chainring. That's why you should use a gear calculator. And if it was a factory setup, they screwed up when designing the bike, or your man bought the wrong bike for the job and he tried to use it for something else other than what it was designed for.
I've never said the FD was dead. Shimano is simply slow right now. They're the biggest drivetrain producer, yet they just released 1x12, when SRAM released theirs back in 2016. Then 1 year later they released GX Eagle, and now 1 year later again NX Eagle. Let's see how long it takes for Shimano to release a 1x12 and/or 2x12spd SLX, and how long it will take for their new standard to be affordable and widely available... Because XD is pretty much standard now.
Yes, your opinion is correct, some people, including you still want to use an FD. But you're just one single person. The Earth is big and a lot of people live on it.
So you can't say that everyone in Europe will want to run an FD because you want to, and you can't say that all 1x systems have limited range and come with the wrong size chainring because you've seen that once.
Here you go:
29x2.3 tyres
34-10 at 90rpm: 40.2km/h
Let's look at a very common factory 2x11, 36/26 with an 11-42, same size tyre, same RPM.
36-11 at 90rpm: 38.7km/h
Okay, let's say you have a hardcore cross country bike with a 38/28.
38-11 at 90rpm: 40.8km/h
So...
Just as a bonus let's compare the low end of a 34T with a 10-50 12spd cassette, and a 28/38 with an 11spd 11-42:
28-42: 0.67
34-50: 0.68
A 1x12 will of course have a bigger range, i'll come back to that when it will be actually affordable. From a few years from now...
In terms of accesabilty to FD I am very calm because I know that Shimano won't stop making them in a very long time. I prefer slow company with bug free drivetrain over that which is setting "new fking standars" every two years.
All I want from bike industry is possibility to run FD with new frames. Deleting this option was like going to PF BB instead of threaded BB.
If I'm one single person with desire to use FD so you are my nemesis with 1x drivetrains, right.
If you do some research you will see that pretty much all hardtail XC bikes that have a 1x will come with a 32T, and the ones with Eagle will usually come with a 34T. You can see trail bikes with 30-32T. I don't know what the F Merida was thinking. The 2018 model at least comes with a 30T and an 11-50.
Don't lie, the owner will go back to 2x because he is your man.
"I prefer slow company with bug free drivetrain over that which is setting "new fking standars" every two years."
Well, we don't know how good Shimano 12spd is, and how good it will be when it trickles down to lower groups. Most of the SRAM 12spd bugs come from user error. People are stupid, working on bikes is easy, a trained monkey could do it. But it seems like a lot of people can't even reach that level of intelligence. I worked as a mechanic for a while, i've seen some really, really stupid sh*t. I've lost all faith in humainty.
You should be very mad at Shimano right now. SRAM came out with XD in 2012. Nowadays it's a widely available standard. It can fit a 10T and a 12spd cassette. Yet Shimano had to come up with a new standard, when they could have just used XD. And right now it's not even an open license like XD is.
Boni sorry but when did Shimano set a "new standard" in past 15 years? What did they changed that made you to swap entire bike set up? I can't remember such thing from them.
I can bet you that new spline will be open license sooner than we think.
Entire bike setup? Not sure, but I can't remember if any other manufacturer did that. Standards? Without googling I can think of a few changes.
Dyna Sys pull ratios, new (and different compared to MTB) road pull ratios, different FD pull ratio for road and MTB, 11spd road cassette spacing (that was a necessity tho), countless I-spec standards, Rapid Rise or low normal derailleurs and shifters, flat mount disc, integrated BB cups requiring like 3 different size wrenches (i know they supply adapters), Hyperglide vs Uniglide, different pull ratio for only Dura Ace back in the day.
That's all I can think of now without google.
I won't turn this into a Shimano vs SRAM debate, neither of these companies are perfect.
We don't have experience with Shimano 12spd now, we don't know how it's going to perform over time, but I can't see why it would need a less perfect setup compared to SRAM. 99% of the SRAM 12spd bugs come from derailleur hanger aligment and wrong B-gap aka user error.
Shimano adopted the offset pulley design, and it's also 12spd with a big cassette, setting it up properly is going to be just as important.
Now SRAM makes a 12spd casette that's compatible with the old Shimano standard while Shimano doesn't... Ridiculous.
From all Shimano components there was one that I newer really undestood or like and it was Dual Control shifters. Even today I think of this as really stupid idea to put it into MTB world.
bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/deorext-m8000/RD-M8000-SGS.html
Of course you could run a 10-42 with a Shimano 2x, that would add a bunch to the high end, but i'm only allowed to talk about factory setups or I get crap.
What if I run a 50T cassette with a 50T front chainring? Do I need to work on my fitness?
Everything you said about chainline, and "higher tension" is wrong too. When you cross chain a 2x or 3x the chain line is so much worse compared to even a 1x12. I know that a bunch of people say that the chain wears faster on a 1x because of the "bad chainline", I haven't seen that yet, and no one actually proved it yet...
A clutch can't and won't add tension, the clutch is a friction device that lives on the pivot point of the cage. The spring in clutch RDs is usually stronger, that adds more tension, but it's negligible. And when you factor in how much a clutch RD improves your riding experience it's especially negligible. What is strange about your clutch argument is that 9 out of 10 MTBs that have a 2x or 3x will come with a clutch RD too...
Some homework:
ride.diamondback.com/friction-profiles-1x-drivetrains
There is nothing wrong with replacing your bike every 2-3 years, if you're jealous of people who do it get a better job.
It's so easy to learn about stuff nowadays, maybe try it next time before commenting rubbish.
Again:
ride.diamondback.com/friction-profiles-1x-drivetrains
+ maybe take apart a clutch RD. You simply don't understand how they work. It's pretty simple tho and the article I posted explains it in one sentence.
"the clutch in this case is a one-way bearing, which permits movement in one direction, but not in the other"
So again, if you don't actually have any experience with the stuff we are talking about please just do a tiny bit of research instead of just pulling out "mechanical facts" out of your backside.
Getting a new bike every 2-3 years is pretty fun!
Conclusion form author:
"The first is that a shifting is simpler with a 1X. You never have to shift the front. In my own experience, this is extremely valuable, though obviously subjective"
and
"Given that the frictional losses do not provide a compelling reason not to run 1X, the aerodynamic argument can then become primary"
None of the above prompts me to change my mind.
Road and MTB 1x systems are barely different (I have a gravel bike too with a Rival 1 groupset). A SRAM road and MTB 1x RD is the exact same thing with modified pull ratio. The article for example explains how clutch RDs work, useful for you.
A lot of road bikes use disc brakes with thru axles, 142x12 spacing but really that's 135mm if you don't count the insets in the frame.
www.pinkbike.com/news/12x142-explained.html
So unless you talk about boost, it's not narrower. But even if you talk about boost, the chainring is offset more on boost specific cranksets. I believe with SRAM it's 6mm vs 3mm. So in terms of chainline it doesn't matter.
Most SRAM 1x road groups come with mountain cassettes, from Rival and up they come with XD mountain cassettes. But road and MTB cassettes are the same overall width anyway, that's what matters (and BTW road cassettes require a longer freehub body). We don't have 1x12 road yet, so yep, on 1x12 MTB stuff the chainline is worse.
But actually, road bikes can have really really short chainstays compared to MTBs, so chainline can be worse.
Yes the article was written by SRAM and it's a big conspiracy theory. The earth is flat.
You said with a 2x I quote "you also have better chain line whatever gear your in". This is not true, because you can cross chain a 2x (or 3x), and believe me, a lot of people do. On a 1x the chainring sits in line with the middle of the cassette, so in both the highest gear and lowest gear the chain is not as crossed as when you cross chain a 2x.
I haven't seen increased chain wear, but to actually prove anything at all regarding chain wear you would have to run a 2x and 1x next to each other in a laboratory so really it's pointless to talk about it.
You also said "a clutch derailure spends more of its life under higher tension which also causes faster wear". Hopefully by now you learned how a clutch actually works, and it's a bit weird to say this because 9 out of 10 2x or 3x systems use clutch RDs nowadays. So unless you ride an older 2x9 or 3x8 or something you most likely have a clutch RD anyways.
@EnduroriderPL:
No one wants to change your mind, you just bashed on 1x while not believing in math, and thinking just because one bike came with a too small chainring all other bikes are like that. The other guy bashed on clutch derailleurs while not even understanding how they work and forgetting that most 2x systems come with it too.
Talking crap about something you don't understand is one of the worst things thing you can do, I just tried to explain some stuff.
There are advantages and disadvantages to everything. You just need to do your research and understand the thing you're trying to criticize.
It's a free world of course so you can just go back to riding a 3x7.
"On a 1x the chainring sits in line with the middle of the cassette, so in both the highest gear and lowest gear the chain is not as crossed as when you cross chain a 2x. "
If you use 2x properly you don't cross your chain more than with 1x and extreme gears (low/high)
Why some people still demand an FD?
First, some people are afraid of change, and/or don't understand how some things function. I worked in a bike shop where we mainly dealt with older, vintage bikes. I've regularly heard the owner saying to customers that all modern components are worse than old components, hydraulic brakes suck and always fail, and all bikes should be made out of steel.
But when I asked him why does he hate all these things, he couldn't really explain it and it turned out he never really owned anything modern, and he barely understood how things function.
Some people actually require an FD, even a triple with a wide range cassette because they for example use their bike both on and offroad, loaded or unloaded, do long tours, etc.
I'm not saying the FD is dead (and there are other bikes not just MTBs), but some people need to understand that a 1x is not limiting anymore, we are not in the 10spd 11-36 days. They need to grab a gear calculator and see how much range a 10-50 adds compared to a 10-42 for example, and they also need to check how affordable is GX Eagle for example.
Also, some people demand a double sided dildo, and there are manufacturers out there that make them, but that doesn't mean you and I need one. So that's not the best argument.
You know what, I'm still in 2x10 with 11-36 and happy with it while riding mountains. Honestly I don't feel any need to switch to 1x.
Shimano: Nope, we're on target. We had a fire in April that affected some of our surface treatment processes – that bumped it back a month from what it was going to be.
Soooooo then there was a delay?!?!?!?
"Since the launch timing it's been consistent."
Apparently production wasn't planned or started at that stage. April was a while ago, wouldn't be surprised they were still finishing development of this group. You only call it a production delay if there is a delay in production.
See, at the time of the fire, some PB visitors (jokingly) claimed it was in their battery production facility (for pedal support and electronic shifting), others claimed it was in their fishing gear facility. I never really dug into it after that but this is the first time an authority (a Shimano representative) admits it was in their bicycle gear facility. He doesn't cover it up. It set them back a month. But this was before launch and as such I wouldn't call it a production delay. What he specifically states is that after launch, they haven't had production delays.
Covering things up would have been when he hadn't mentioned the fire at all and merely stated that strictly indeed they haven't had any delays. He didn't, so I consider his answer fair, complete and honest.
Those are his own words. I guess if you don’t stay what was bumped back then it’s easy to say it wasn’t the production that was bumped. Also if you were only counting production delays as quality control issues then that’s another easy way to show on paper no production delays. I am in inspector who is working building a dam and I am actually quality control for the production of the material that is being used to build the dam. Our flyash plant we were using caught fire and so we had to source flyash from another manufacturer. There was a PRODUCTION delay because we were unable to get an flyash because the factory had burned down. The delay had nothing to do with quality control. See how that works. Also giving a three month window for when customers will be able to get the product and in the same line saying it could be a week or so after and then the next paragraph stating how long it takes to get across the ocean just really confuses everybody. So they honestly have no date is what they really want to say but it could be within this timeframe if we have no production delays.
So let’s see The contractor who is rebuilding the spillway was able to start in March and gave a finish date upon starting of November 1 and was able to complete a massive spillway which has a million more moving parts, design and issues then a gear set and with production delays finished on the exact ending date they said. I guess I should tell them they should get into the bike industry because they will kill it.
1: "We had a fire in April that affected some of our surface treatment processes – that bumped it back a month from what it was going to be."
2: "Since the launch timing it's been consistent."
Sorry for the confusion from my side, indeed I didn't mean to say production delays stem from quality control issues exclusively. If you can't source materials or components in time as is the case with the dam, yes I'd call that a production delay too. If the engineers of the dam couldn't test their scaled model because the hydro lab was frozen over, that would cause a delay too but because it is done before the start of production I wouldn't call it a production delay. From the interview I took that the fire was still during the development phase, so maybe they couldn't finish prototypes or display models.
As for his explanation about the uncertainty in delivery times, I think he was quite clear about that. How fast aftermarket components reach the customer still depends on logistics. I can imagine they may reach Australia and the US west coast well before they reach Europe. If you're talking about finding these components spec'd as OEM on a complete bike, it not only depends on how fast the bike manufacturer assembles bikes but also whether they're willing to take chances to put a bike in their catalog spec'd with components that they may not get hold of in time. A few German bike companies got a bit of a bad name for not delivering bikes in time because they actually had everything stocked and prepared, but were missing that silly but essential components. And especially now that the rear mech and rear hub are a bit of a match (just like the original Saint group) you can't easily swap them out.
So personally I appreciate that doesn't give a hard anwer of "this is when you find the new XTR in store" but instead breaks it down in when he expects them to be finished and what needs to happen after that and why you may not find it on the latest high end Specialized bikes. I also understand that if you were looking for a clear and definite answer, you were disappointed.
Broke a shift tooth on the top gear , 1 tooth on the third gear and most of the shifting gear are worn out on the three top aluminum cogs.
not impressed with a 500 dollar cassette.
Can't speak for Minneapolis but Toronto? That's a veritable mountain bike hot spot if I've ever seen one.
Otherwise, I quite like Shimano, apart from the pins used in their chains, when a missing link would be the preferred option, a la KMC.
The main takeaway, the spring in the above image pulls the yellowish ratchet back INTO the hub. The free hub body with it's spiraled splines grabs it and pulls it back into the green floating ratchet when you pedal. When you stop pedaling the spring pulls the ratchets far enough apart to disengage the splines between them.
@wincobankchef If it disengages the yellowish ratchet entirely, but it looks to me like the inner ratchet is always in contact with the freehub body, just not always in far enough to engage the larger floating ratchet.
Will the new 11spd xtr cassette be compatible with existing 11spd derailleur/shifter, if the hub is replaced of course? Or is the new 11spd spacing different than current 11spd?
XTR isn't for me either. I like what they're doing but I'm not looking for weight saving, to be the first with the new stuff nor for the competitive edge. I'm currently happily riding with Zee. Once this tech reaches that group, I'll look into it. I don't quite like having the clutch teeth being machined out of aluminum but then again if it really turns out to be too soft for the purpose, it should reveal by then. Then again even XTR rear hubs aren't much more expensive than alternatives from the other big competitors so I might still get the XTR hub if it is more durable.
I’m as excited to see the group updated as the next guy but what would people change? I honestly don’t know! Ah yeah maybe the pedals are a bit crap...?
Maybe the whole variable bite point on their brakes. Anodize the pistons.
If the link doesn't work, there's a Shimano compatibility chart that lists it.
productinfo.shimano.com/#/com/2.9?cid=C-432&acid=C-435
The fact they HAVEN’T EVEN STARTED TO WORK ON SAINT is just sad. It’s been eight years since they did anything. And they would rather stick with their rigid and out dated product cycles because that’s the way they have always done it instead of making even a token effort to give the market what it wants. XT isn’t going to be out until this time next year. SLX isn’t going to be out until 2021.
This quote sums it all up “I think it's just really hard for us to change.“
It really just comes down to preference and even saying 3x is "for mountain bikers who ride actual mountains" just comes off as snotty and pretentious. Plus, your anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal. It may have been pedaling uphill with the dualie was harder because of the gearing and that infernal 1x, or because your other bike has your preferred setup/configuration, is your bike and thus more dialed, and is obviously going to take the climbs better and more efficiently since it is a hardtail.
You don't have to hate 1x, love 3x, or fart rainbows to be able to share your opinions without being condescending.