Video: 28 Bikes Bottomed Out In Ultra Slo Mo (1000 FPS)

 I want a podcast about it, describing what happens to each bike

 Maybe a flipbook?

 I would love to see some measurements taken from these video. Which bike had the most front wheel deflection?

 @newbermuda: It'd be Mike on the mic in super slow motion, please NO, thank you!

 @fjopsys: Yes, we want a fancy table with many numbers (the more significant digits the better) and lengthy footnotes so that we dont have to watch this boring video.

 Grim donut is the only bike where the chain hits the ground. Future geometry will certainly be with a gearbox

 ASMR audiodescription

 @nozes @newbermuda Careful what you ask for - we might stretch this out into a month-long series where we talk about only one bike bottoming out for an hour each podcast. Stay tuned for the next episode haha

 @mikelevy: Rigid fat bike huck to flat test....

 I want to see video of Jason's facial expressions while doing the hucks to flat.

 @wheelsmith: ibis mojo?

 A Taj reimagined drawing would really do well to "paint the full picture", if you will...

 @mikelevy: Your guy's Podcasts have been great btw, I like the honest and straight forward discussions and opinions... The on set audio from you guys sounds very good as well... Cheers, thanks for the content.

 @ridayobike: Stoked you like 'em!

 More short shorts

 @wheelsmith: or shimano derailleurs

 Where's the Ransom!!!

 @landscapeben: it was used to buy all the other bikes

 @waldo-jpg: yeah more Shimano vs SRAM

 @mikelevy: you should find a way to compare the flex of the frames as Pinkbike’s unbiased data would be an interesting take on what different brands claim about the stiffness of their frames.

 @likeittacky: good response

 @newbermuda: Preferably in a whisper, right?

 @wheelsmith: last bike too. Ibis mojo

 I would love to see that. Also, if they could throw in some period forks like a Totem, Super Monster T etc.

 Would love to see this as well! Here are some slow-mos from one of Sam Pilgrim's videos: imgur.com/a/LwLDhkA

Even more flex!

 @fjopsys: doing doing doing!

 @fjopsys: wow did not expect that much flex.

 @fjopsys: I guess Dox 40s are stiffer! Those Boxxers definitely wiggle about

 @fjopsys: The Fox 40 makes that boxxer look like a wet noodle

 @fjopsys: Would really like to see USD fork for comparison because they should be aft-stiffer....

 @CustardCountry: other variables at play too. Rear suspension doesn't look similar between the bikes either, which can change how the front suspension moves. Also would make a big difference if anyone is dragging a front brake.

I wouldn't consider that video to mean much in isolation.

 @seismicninja: The 40 is also so stiff that no normal person under 160lbs could ride it.

 WE NEED MORE DATA!

 It bothers me that there are two #2......

 @BMXJJ327: we need more #2

 I gotta a fever and the only prescription is more #2!

 Chill, Calvin had Hobbes scribing... gotta keep Calvin around for his genius imagination.

 more air

 Yeah what he said But seriously that would be enough data for a video!

 @Jordansemailaddress: I'm leaving a #2 while reading this

 Slow motion dis location

 Maybe it's 'working as intended', but it certainly doesn't look very flattering in slo-mo. It's surprising to see the front wheel stop rotating for a split second on the forks with excessive binding. What's going on here?

 @fjopsys: So for the wheel "stopping", you see how the fork is slack? And in the absence of anything else, if you compress the fork, the front axel moves backward relative to the bike? Well when you huck to flat, in this case, the front wheel is moving backward relative to the frame fast enough that it almost stops relative to the ground. That said the frame keeps moving forward.

As for the compression of the forks being non uniform, I had originally assumed stictions on the guide bushings would be to blame. Upon review I believe that the issue is primarily the tire acting as a undamped spring and causing the system to oscillate. As well as the force from the rider taking a little to fully load up the fork.

In steps you have:
1. Tire touches ground and fully compresses to rim, fork is moving very little.
2. Tire starts re bounding and shock starts compressing quicker.
3. Tire finishes rebounding, shock moves back to slower compression with the overall movement of the frame.
4. Riders hands start to weight the bars more as the compression damping and spring force are reacted. leading to a more smooth and steady continuous compression of the fork.

 @tbev: 5. Jason Lucas opens eyes.

 With the exception of the lefty. Would be nice to see an inverted fork for comparison

 @tbev: thanks for the observations, I think your analysis makes sense. Any thoughts on how this oscillation could be mitigated? I wonder if inserts that have an air pocket (Tannus) help dampen the tire?

 @tbev: -Q. I would have thought wouldn't it just be the frame moving forward when the fork compresses. depriving the wheel of that energy to rotate ?? rather than the front axel/front wheel moving backwards??
I really don't have a clue it's just what i thought happened

 @fjopsys: that’s why you #Ride Fox, their through axle system with a pinch bolt eliminates any binding of the stations

 @tbev: Yep I think suspension gurus could analyze this to no end.
Makes you wonder if a forward moving fork wouldn't be better (like the Trust one but going kinda forward or the one made by Rocksled on Instagram).
Or maybe the ideal trajectory would be an "S" : 1st going a bit rearward to swallow the tire "shockwave" then moving forward as the frame pushes the fork into its travel, so the front axle wouldn't lose all its momentum.
But this is what happens on huck to flat, not sure the same happens proportionally on small bumps.

Again it would've been cool to se the EXT Era.

Or maybe a "2 actions" fork (picture a small stanchion at the bottom for instance, or at the crown)

 @orphan: He said "in the absence of anything else the axle moves backward" so I think he meant fix the frame on a stand, remove the pressure in the fork, slide the lowers into their travel, the axle indeed goes upward and backward relatively to were it was. So with a bit of forward momentum, it cancels each other and the wheel stops for a second and the axle stands still.

 @Will-narayan: - i understand what he said and you are saying it's just i'm not seeing it (and trust me i'm deferring to you guys,just trying to understand this)
I want to try your experiment, but is that really recreating the conditions of what is happening ???
Either way thanks for trying to help me - the video of the forces being generated on the wheels and suspensions are great

 @orphan: Well it's not visible in the video, it's just heory.
If you considere a hierarchy where the frame is the master of the frontfork (=considering the frame as the origin of the system) then the front axle is moving upward and rearward when the fork compresses, and it always does just because that's the angle of the fork.
But when the frame goes forward and downward and the wheel hits the ground the axle is temporarily immobile relatively to the world coordinates system (but still going rearward/upward relatively to the frame coord system).
In the bike hierarchy, the front part of the bike are "children" to the frame, but when the wheel hits the ground the front part of the bike is temporarily "binded" to the world so the front part is fixed while the frame keeps going forward/downward. As the wheel eventually starts rolling again the binding to the world comes to an end and the axle starts moving forward again.
It's basic stuff in 3D softwares but I may be badly explaining it^^.

 You guys all study philosophy or what....a lot of bro science going on here...

 @orphan: Well to be exact, I say "it's not visible" but it's kind of visible, you have to isolate the bike from the environment. If you were to paint everything black but the bike, and stabilize the picture on the bike (like an anti vibration software does in a gopro) the frame would be fixed and the front part of the bike would move backward/upward.

 And what I said about an ideal S curve is dumb, well I mean it only works in the case of huck to flat. In the other cases of rolling overobstacle an S curve would not be ideal at all.

 @tbev:
I'd be curious if an inline mass damper could be used to quell the oscillation. With the tires being so big and so softly aired these days, I'm sure the resonant frequencies of the tires and suspension are overlapping.

 @atestisthis: Yeah I think theres a lot of interaction with the suspension on the current high volume tires. Watching videos like this, its clear why 27.5+ didnt stick around. I dont do vibrations for work, and I haven't had a class on vibrations in probably about 10 years; I dont really have the memory fresh enough to give mass dampers a sanity check. Honestly I think the slowmo here is a good selling point for tire inserts, it should limit the compression of the tires and probably damp their uncontrolled rebound a little.

 Looked the most rigid front to back. Having owned and ridden a bunch of them, I'm not surprised. Not saying that less flex is more better.

 I was surprised out how un-bouncy the lightweight cannondales moved through their travel front to back. There were also a few bigger bikes that moved through their travel surprisingly bad. The nomad and slash just looked like crap to be honest. That p train on the other hand looked smooth as silk compressing. The propain looked nice and smooth too through all its stroke as well.

 @cougar797: I think this is more just the wallowy nature if longer travel bikes, obviously what is seen and what is felt are different. The Cannondales definitely looked more composed as did alk the shorter travel bikes but I'm willing to bet the rider felt the shock much more..the big bikes are prolonging the length of the hit so will take longer to reach fulk compression and longer to extend but they will also hit bottom out less abruptly... If you did this test on hardtail rigid fork bike it woyld look great on camera, look completely composed but the rider would feel one hell of a jolt.

 I think it is an optical illusion. You can see the lowers flexing as much as the other forks.

 I request Jason to only have his left hand on the handlebar when hucking the lefty

 @jaame: they have set the shock sag to recommended value (about 30 %) and the fork too.

 Especially the HTs...you can see the pain.

 @ReformedRoadie: - my spine hurt just watching

 @orphan: so does he get, like, hazard pay?

 @conv3rt: No. He was shocked when he found this out.

 @rrolly: shame. I'm sure he'll bounce back.

 I think around the 2:00 minute mark is a Lefty.

 @GTJosh: Oh yeah. I think you're right.

 @GTJosh: that's a stiff one!

 @GTJosh: Crazy how well the Lefty holds its own in comparison to the other forks.

 @mi-bike: it does look like it deflects way less than the other xc trail forks.....plus no chance for csu noise

 Yup, it's in there!

 All these people still skeptical over the Lefty's design....you know this design is the most common car suspension in the world....

 @FurryCrew: Plus a whole axle in the back/linkage in the front.

 @mikelevy: That’s what she said

 It's not - the Lefty is stiffer front to back.

 Here are a few videos: www.pinkbike.com/news/review-trust-shout-linkage-fork.html

www.pinkbike.com/news/review-6-months-on-the-trust-message-linkage-fork.html

 @mikelevy: Very cool articles. But what about the Slowest-of-Mo!!! It is interesting to see how the Trust forks move through the travel, it would be interesting to try out. I know from riding the Structure bike that it gets longer through compression. More supple than my downhill bike and pulled me out of nose heavy landings that would have had me in trouble. You guys should have a regular biking Joe review! I volunteer as tribute

 compare it to the face with the Honzo. Ouch.

 would love to see a Lauf leaf spring fork TBH

 On a proper drop you should have a transition as part of your landing where you can land smoothly and without the Impact of a flat landing

 @RockCrawler: "Should" is the magic word. I thought the big bikes should have reserves for when "should" diverges from reality.

 @Z1-AV69: and when would that happen? it's the perpendicularity that's the issue; unless you've just cased massively or pedaled your 35lb enduro rig to the skate park, it's just not something you'll encounter

 I was thinking the same thing. Unless the Enduro bikes were hucked from a higher drop point... and the XC/DC bikes from a lower. But in the Enduro video, you can see the jump/drop is only 3ft or so. I don't expect to use 160-180mm of travel (all available) on a 3ft drop!

 The reality is that you should have 5-10% suspension available from such a small ramp. Was doing this the other day and the relative issue with all these rear air shocks on display is the double binding effect near bottom out. The shocks are beyond operating range on max pressure and should not be pushed beyond this point. Coming from enduro motorcycles I have coils in both my current bikes (Fuel EX, Rail) and I can tell you that the push modified lyrik and the marzocchi z1 coil would put this lot to shame, ditch these garbage air forks that have zero bottom out support and their foolish followers haha

 @tprojosh: iono air forks just won the national motocross championship and won supercross last year. not that i'm a fan, but i don't know if bottom-out support correlates strongly to coil spring; it's design details..unless you call coil bind bottom out support

 If you are offering the bike up I could snap it no matter what it is just takes the right compression haha but joking aside I think atleast from a metallurgy perspective a lot of headtube design and failure from testing has yielded a few very strong designs and with increased hydroforming in modern bicycle construction. Aluminum in airplanes for 70+ years have yielded high strength I think it may be QC issues in bikes.

 Larger headtubes allow for a larger connection to the other tubes. Better design. Less obsession with weight.

 I agree, but landing to flat is a high-speed compression and Jason does weight 40-ish-lb more than Kaz and I do. We could have weakened the swingarm as well, but not folded that brace like Jason did. I should also mention that my ankles are absolute garbage and they keep me from ever doing anything to flat if I want to walk without a limp on a regular basis, so I try to avoid them.

 Pole

 I actually rewound to see what bike it was

 We need destructive testing next...

 I mean it's gotta flex or it'll just snap. I'm actually blow away by the lack of flex on all these bikes. Even the XC bikes seen stiff as fuck. Really the only part that seems to flex nowadays is the fork.

 Chain bottomed out. Needs more drivetrain ramp-up.

 @mikelevy: need adjustable derailleur volume spacers for that mid stroke support.

 I think they did. I believe they run mid twenties for trail testing and like 35 for huck to flat test. But I’m sure there is someone who can correct me if I’m wrong.

 @Spiral23: That's correct.

 @mikelevy: yeah! Only once in a life time!



Ps: I still hope that second thing I’ll every be correct about is that 29” wheels are not the future!

 those Commencals looked scaryy

 Never mind, it looks like some cobweb that was there on the fall too. Deceiving

 I don't think that would be in the best interests of Kaz and I tho

 www.pinkbike.com/news/field-test-13-bikes-hucked-to-flat-at-1000-fps.html

 @mikelevy: makes you wonder if a progressive derailleur clutch could be a thing.

 I think I take my drivetrain for granted, I had no idea my rear derailleur had to deal with so much flap. Impressive that they work given how bad the chain looks. Would love to see how a belt drive setup (like a Zerode bike) holds up.

 Too bad they haven't figured out a better way to dampen the initial shock.

 Always such a treat riding short cage DH derailers after being on the new big and flappy ones for a while.

 I think body wants to do about the same as chain does, but bones are restricting that.

 the stumpy front end tho..

 The front end isn't flexy. What you're watching is the head angle changing 7.5 degrees (ish) as the fork bottoms out. This is why hardtails with long forks are dumb.

 strong frame. flexy Lyrik

 @PAmtbiker: dumb maybe, but sooo much fun to ride!

 @PAmtbiker: agree. If the back is bouncy and skippy over rough, I want the front to at least mimic that feeling. 130 worked for me.

 I don't know, the compression looked the best on the Propain.

 Same dude, different test series.

 @Ajorda: shuddup