Video: $1100 vs. $6500 In Upgrades On A Used Mountain Bike - Budget vs. Baller Episode 5

 Two weeks ago this was next year's first episode. Just sayin'

 *could have

 They need to replace budget with well considered upgrades that make an improvement for a reasonable price. Vs just buying the most and least expensive parts available.

 I'm enjoying the series, but I agree that it's not really practical information.

Who would take a mid-tier used bike and put junk components on it just for the sake of replacing them? Also, who would take a dated frame (admittedly not that bad... I have one) and put all the most expensive parts on it when better performance could probably be achieved for the same cost on a newer frame with mid level components?

I'd like to see the same series redone with any 2 bikes aiming for maximum cost vs performance ratio then comparing them to some of the latest super bikes to highlight the true performance difference vs the best available.

I'm partial to enduro bikes again, but that's just me.

 @matttie: ya they could just have 2 different budgets and be able to buy used to score better parts

 Now do it again and spend your money on the budget bike like it was actually your money and had to last and it actually mattered if you could get service or support for that fork in 6 months.

 @matttie: agree to this like upgrading your yari fork by replacing its damper, changing brake levers to a higher end version

 @Caligula1620: *coulda

 Next run - Henry and Jason switch bikes.

 @trillot: Wanted to say same thing- that would make a lot of sense!

 @Capable: .....could have*

 @CSdirt: I've already had this argument and again if it was just cheap crap vs expensive they shouldn't be on the same frame. No one I have ever met is downgrading a Reign to be a piece of shit bike. Those parts are upgrades only when used on a bike with shittier parts. Tell me who in their right mind would buy that Chinese fork before rebuilding the Yari? Nobody that's who.

 @CSdirt: It's called, "budget VS baller" NOT "absolute cheap crap for laughs VS baller" I think they missed their own point?

 Perhaps the issue is that series wasn't set up properly. What question was it trying to answer? If the series was about whether the cheapest available parts are really that bad it might have been better received. Simple answer... In most cases, yes! I also think the only people don't know the answer to that question are not in this audience, so maybe it's not relevant.

That brings us back to the question that does matter to this audience. Since we're all constantly complaining about the cost of bikes, is there a cheaper way to achieve most of the versatile performance of a premium bike?

 Its "like early 2000's tweener reality show"'ERA' for PB right now

 @zacjob: I totally agree...but I bet that the differences wouldn't be as big as the marketing folks want us to believe.

 @trillot: so Jason spent 6500 upgrading a bike. Could have bought a new bike for that much. That would have been baller.

 @matttie: See how Donut Media did it with their Toyotas, that was a success

 @weebleswobbles:
Could have bought a Stumpy Evo alloy that Kazimer liked the best in the trail bike field test.

 @Garantson: he paid all that money to be faster than Henry on the second lap

 @Y12Sentinel: next thing that might come up is "PB Big Brother" with the editors...

 Well I'm enjoying this for some mindless silly fun. Not all pb material needs to be educational like most whingers here seem to want. Just relax and have a bit of fun
I also suspect that it's Henry's influence, the style is a bit more British (a la top gear) and may not be as appreciated by our North American friends.

 @CSdirt: If everyone is missing the point, and your (pinkbike/outside) entire existence is to communicate effectively with it's consumers, I would argue that perhaps pinkbike has failed.

I agree with your last point. this entire series could have been an 8 minute video. We bought identical bikes and put the following crappy parts on one and expensive parts on the other. Look at the time differences and now we'll talk for 1 minute each about how we think they ride differently. GMBN does a decent job of this.

 @CSdirt: I 100% agree. I feel like this was a light hearted way of saying "if you don't have the talent, your budget doesn't matter". A fast guy on junk is still going to be faster than someone with less ability, even on the best parts. It wasn't a "here, these are your only two options" kind of thing, nor was it meant to be practical. Where is the entertainment in practicality? I think they probably had a blast making the series. And THAT was the point.

 @inside-plus: 100%
I don't mind how PB did this show, but it would be more informative and less frivolous if they took Donut's approach to next season.

 @Caligula1620: I appreciate the grammar check there @Caligula1620, but I was just trying to mimic or even outdo the OP. I imagined it in some British slang.

 @Garantson: Do you know if you can set the stumpy Evo alloy as a dual 27.5 or if you have to run 29 mullet?

 that's not gonna happen dogg we're here to sell bikes!

 That's the part I don't understand. As the title sponsor Jenson has tons of budget parts that they could have easily used and gotten double the exposure while making this a much more worthwhile challenge... $200 stem vs a $40 stem, $2K wheels vs $400 wheels, AXS vs NX or Deore. Oh well, always next season.

 I think this could have been really good if it was done with 3 versions of the bike (could be only 2 bikes) High end, ridiculously low end and what you should pick for quality budget parts. Have a quick talk about the downfalls of going too cheap aka tires that aren't really all worthwhile. It would keep it informative and entertaining for everyone.

 @mtbman1980: or the 3rd bike could have the same budget as low end and pick used parts from the pinkbike buy and sell

 @OCSunDevil: But are they actually going to do that? The ultimate conclusion is that most of us are just fine on Deore and OEM/Mid level parts. It's all diminishing returns after that. No one is buying Absolute Black stuff after that series, unless they're a dentist.

 @OCSunDevil: Jenson actually joined the comments on one of the earlier episodes to suggest that for season 2

 Agreed. Let’s be honest, most Pinkbike readers / viewers are huge geeks when it comes to technical details. Hopefully the next time they do this series, they spend more time analyzing the differences between the two levels of components, and just what you are (and aren’t) getting for your extra money.

In fact, maybe for the end of THIS series, they can do a whole episode on this. It would be a great educational tool for serious bikers to show their non-biker friends and family exactly why that Amazon or Department store budget parts aren’t really the same as quality components from a real bike company. I mean, have you ever had to have that conversation with someone before? I know I have.

An episode like that would redeem this whole series, and be something we could all refer our skinflint spouses, co-workers, parents, and friends to whenever they say something dumb like, “I saw an identical bike at Walmart for only $400!”

 @MB3: I believe there are a chunk of PB readers that are up on some/most of the specs for new stuff, but I can't help but think that Pinkbike hopes that things like this grow past their normal viewership and reach/draw in a wider audience, especially with a video series like this. That wider range of viewers on platforms like Youtube may need more spoon-feeding of specific details and differences, like Worldwide Cyclery does in there videos where they break down every detail between each Shimano vs. SRAM groupset, etc.

 That‘s most likely too revealing - and would run counter to PB‘s source of income, the bike industry.
Consider: with 100% certainty a pro-level rider on a 5-year-old entry-level CC bike would just crush any average Joe on a 2022 top-of-the-line enduro anywhere. Realizing that, a few people would not buy the latest and greatest…

 It'd probably be counterintuitive to the nature of their marketing as well as probably be very rider dependant. Some pros are very particular others can shred anything. Along with other things riders can be sensitive too, you'd need multiple top level riders to get a good feel for it. Also depends on clapped out in what way, and how much older of a model. And then even could be more brand specific.

 Not really feasible. Maybe have two equally matched riders do timed trials. Going fast is a skill and even many very good riders don’t have it.

 They won't do that. PB's sponsors, and bike companys want the viewer to buy the new bike. You go upset the business model and bad things will happen

 Steve Peat put out a vid not long ago riding back to back laps on an old V10 and the latest and greatest iteration (if my memory serves…). Bottom line, was only marginally slower on the old, outdated, “unrideable” bike.

 @VtVolk: Yes I saw it, that's sort of the Vibe I'm talking about. Steve Peat races his 2006 V10 and I race his 2022 V10. Hilarity ensues, then myself and PB make millions!!!!!!!

 @VtVolk:

That was a great video.

To be fair though, DH bikes have had better geometry than trail bikes for ages. Given DH bikes have grown in reach some as well, but their HTA hasn't changed all that much. On the flip side I'd say the average trail/all mountain bike 10 years ago had what... 3-6 degree steeper HTA than they have now? Plus the reach has grown... 50-100mm? Thats a pretty large change.

Its definitely still the rider for the majority. Just saying that I think trail bikes have changed more than DH bikes, so maybe there would be "some" more difference between a 15 year old average trail bike and ... something like the Transition Sentinel/Norco Sight/Ibis Ripmo (trail/all mountainish bike).

 It is not the bike. End of the series, thx for watching see you next year it'll be even faster.

 @VtVolk: iirc many years ago when Peaty was riding Orange, MBR (?) got him to do timed laps on a reader's bike vs the reader on his bike. However, the reader didn't own an Orange, so he had to ride the cheapest shiny new Orange hard tail instead. Pretty sure he destroyed the reader anyway. How on earth does my memory hold this utterly useless information???

 @Heidesandnorth: While it is true that rider skill plays the biggest role, pros are still working constantly to get all the speed they can out of their bikes. Things like changing the shock linkage for different tracks, wiring the spokes to make the wheels stiffer, filling the open spaces with foam to hold less mud etc make enough difference to be worth it.

 @Patrick9-32: given how much of top level riding is in the head, having something that the rider perceives to be an advantage IS an advantage, regardless of whether the bike is fundamentally any quicker or not

 Or just run it similar to top gear. They all run the exact same model of budget bike, and have a star on a reasonably priced bike. I would be okay with having multiple sizes available so they all get thr proper fit to eliminate that variable.

 I would find it interesting to see what budget parts these bike reviewers would actually choose for themselves. I would like to see them start with a frame, but I'm guessing it's a fairly large majority of riders who buy complete bikes.

 @AndrewHornor: completely agree. you see a lot of presenters/reviewers mention things like XT shifters on an SLX derailleur instead of an XT derailleur with SLX shifter. the former being much more cost effective for the performance. the reviewers are seasoned riders compared to most so their methodology and thought process on picking "budget parts" would be of much more value than comparing top end vs bottom of the barrel. both categories that a good amount of riders will not spend money on.

 @blamalamadingdong: they choose the xt shifter because it does double down shifts, that's only a feature on xt and xtr.

 @blamalamadingdong: that's my exact shifter and derailleur combo, and a classic min/maxing example! I don't remember where I got the idea but I didn't come up with it by myself. That kind of content is of real world value.

 @AndrewHornor: yup. first thing i upgraded on my enduro since it came with an SLX shifter. i had the double tap on my 11speed hardtail and cant be without it anymore! this is an incredibly cheap "upgrade" with a lot of potential. there are other small things to save cost as well like using an SLX or deore cassette/cranks (at the expense of some grams, but noticeable cost) without sacrificing big performance.

this series almost convinced me to do my own budget vs baller series, i just dont have the cash to do it lol

 @blamalamadingdong: going to the bank like hey, I need $15k to buy bike parts, and don't worry, half of them will be value oriented...
I actually have an instagram account documenting how I try to keep my mountain biking affordable. Coming up with content is challenging. You'd need to buy a lot of stuff to make it interesting.

 Outside+ already invested in square wheels' Kickstarter - they see some potential sales there.

 New bearings is a must on a used frame, preferably, high quality German product.

 bwah!

 Nicely done

 Did the same thing too on a 2017 Trance. My build came to about $1500. www.pinkbike.com/photo/21580653

 what I would have upgraded on the budget bike:

www.m-suspensiontech.com/mst-yari-kartusche-v2

new Front tire if the rubber of the old one wasn't good (magic mary or dirty dan for that weather)

some used/cheap shock maybe tuned by mst like dpx2, topaz/suntour

reach extender headset

XT shifter

brakebleed

that would set me back around 700€ and it would be a way better bike compared to the turd they built up

 It sounded like the budget wheels were actually a pretty decent set… it was the tires that they chose to put on them that were crap.

Also, they could have cut that $1,000 figure down a bit by opting to service the existing fork instead of buying a no name new one.

 Walmart sells mountainbikes.

 A brand new Specialized Rockhopper is like $5-600 depending on where you buy it. You can go and ride that in normal athletic clothes and a pair of trainers and a $50 helmet and have fun on the trails for years without spending anything more than wearing parts like chains, cassettes and brake pads. The idea that you need to have high end kit to have fun on a mountain bike is ridiculous. If you want to be a competitive racer you need to spend a lot more money, if you want to have the latest kit you need to spend a lot more money.

If you are doing back to back comparisons of ride quality with much more expensive stuff and you expect it to perform the same you are being ridiculous.

You don't need to spend $2000 on a mountain bike for it to be fun. You certainly don't need to spend $10,000. These arguments are like people saying that Ferraris cost $500,000 so the car industry is catering only to rich people.

 @IntoTheEverflow: yep, and yet we never see any content that covers the realities of getting started in the sport and sticking with it. if you get into the sport seriously, that walmart bike isn't going to hold up unless you dump cash into it regularly to keep it from falling apart. realistically if you buy a $500 bike and ride it regularly, you'll probably dump another $500 into it before the year is out.
I love the argument too that "there are cheap bikes out there". like ya there are slow ugly cars out there too but if you're getting into the sport of racing, they're probably not going to do you much good.

 @Patrick9-32: well ya every argument becomes ridiculous when you bastardize it lol. I'm not saying you have to have a top tier bike to have fun, but this idea that a $500 bike is going to hold up to years of serious riding and not run you 2x-3x the original cost in upkeep is laughable. It shows how few people have worked in a shop or actually tried this method. Those $50 tune ups pile up quick when your whole drive train is shimano Acera lol.

"These arguments are like people saying that Ferraris cost $500,000 so the car industry is catering only to rich people." Again, not my argument but since you're using the analogy let me correct it for you. What you're essentially saying is "you don't need a race car to race, you just have to have a car and the desire" while you're not wrong, you are being incredibly disingenuous about the experience one would have with one over the other. Average cost of quality MTB tires is probably somewhere around $50-$60, average helmet around $80-$100, pedals usually around $40-$50 average since they're not always included, not to mention the bike being around 5-$600 as you mentioned, as well as tubes/lube/pumps and everything else you need to keep the bike running, $50-$100. Now that's not even including gloves, hydration, changing any components, and the upkeep I mentioned.


Bottom line, you're right you can get into the sport for under $2k, but you're being ignorant of the implied costs that come up from high usage on low quality parts.

 @Caligula1620: You absolutely do not need to spend that kind of money to have fun on a bike. The idea that you need $50 tyres and an $80 helmet to even go on your first mountain bike ride is completely false.

MTB helmets are $25 for a reasonable one without features that passes safety standards that will keep you safe enough for entry level mtb trail riding
MTB tyres are $10 for ones with tread and a hard compound that will allow you to have fun once you skid all the tread off of the ones which came on the bike.
Plastic MTB pedals are under $20.
Learning to work on your own bike is life affirming and costs only a few bucks in simple tools and some time watching youtube videos.
That Shimano Acera Derailleur is $20 so when you do smash it you can replace it yourself in half an hour for the cost of a meal out.
Gloves? - Gardening gloves cost a couple of bucks
Hydration? - My kitchen cupboards are half filled with water bottles I have been given as promotional items for free and tap water costs almost nothing.

You are building barriers that simply don't exist. Even if you destroy the fork on your entry level bike you can replace it for like $150.

Comparing riding a mountain bike in the woods with your friends to going track racing in a car is ridiculous. Beginner mountain biking is closer to being able to drive to somewhere nice with your friends in the car when you first get your license, to do that you need a running, driving safe car and you can have fun.

If you are comparing going to an enduro or downhill race and being competitive then it is probably a better comparison but I have been riding bikes for over 20 years and only ever done one race and didn't really enjoy it. That's not the MTB experience for many riders. Even if that is where you want to go, the cheap bike and the skills you build at first will put you in a better place when you do save for the expensive, discipline specific bike.

 @Patrick9-32: dude, please do not encourage people to go riding with a $25 helmet. unless they're making helmets with MIPs for that cheap nowadays, you're essentially riding with an egg carton on your head.
$10 tires, ok ya be prepared to replace those within the first month of regular use.
"only cost a few bucks in simple tools" LMMFAO, ok tell me you have never worked on bikes without telling me. unless you're talking about just buying an allen wrench set, you are insanely mistaken that bike tools are "only a few bucks".
duckduckgo.com/?q=shimano+acera+derailleru&atb=v246-1&ia=web (notsure where you're seeing derailleurs for $20, cheapest I'm seeing is around $40 and that's pretax and shipping, not including installation.
omfg dude if you didn't want to compare it to cars why did you bring up the analogy? lol.



bottom line, I'm agreeing with you that you can absolutely get started for cheap in the sport. But acting like someone can ride technical/rough trails on a Walmart bike for any prolonged period of time without spending money constantly on upkeep just exposes your ignorance on the subject. And ya we can all go riding in hard hats and gardeing gloves with our work boots on and our bikepacking packs as hydration packs, but is that what most people do? no. that's my point. you're essentially pointing out that it's possible to do, what almost nobody does, and all I'm saying is that ya it's possible but not popular or practical.

I'm done with this discussion tho, you lost me at "bike tools are cheap" rofl.

 because I can spread that $6500 out over 2 years and maybe my wife won't notice.

 @deez-nucks: finance my friend. Finance.

 @deez-nucks: Sorry you have to do that. That sucks

 Yep, this isn't budget vs baller, they've unintentionally made a series called WHAT NOT TO DO. And in both cases it's put a bunch of crap amazon parts on the bike AND hang a bunch of overpriced parts for full MSRP off an old frame that you don't even know how much damage it has from previous owner.

We're entering Yeti/Pivot/Transition/etc numbers and i lol'd when they said we're only half way through. So they're gonna ball out on brakes and drivetrain and it's probably going to finish around 10k... You can get a mid-high spec Specialized Enduro for that money. Or a damn e-bike, and not a shit one either.

They definitely went for entertainment and advertising over education on this series :/

 @deez-nucks: telling for a friend : she notices the same way you notice her massages she gets and thinks you don't notice

 @lepigpen: It does seem like the target audience (average rider) has been intentionally botched with this series. Nobody is dropping the cost of a bike in upgrades and nobody is considering generic suspension. They have to know this, I mean c’mon. It’s just easier and more fun to do it this way than actually making sense, that’s all I can think.

 @emptybe-er: If their goal was to gain a lot of negative attention to put the series in people's minds... In order to have a more successful season 2 with possibly an improved methodology...

Well, that would be incredibly smart. But that's conspiracy think

 Yes. The name should not have been 'budget VS baller', but: 'Watch rider suffer as we load his bike with crap components while his friend gets the high end' And Levy would have played that part better. Henry is just too laid back.

 Because the presentation of "budget" is disingenuous at best.

 So far, this episode might be of more relevance to a novice rider who doesn’t know why the Fox fork costs so much more than the Amazon one… as far as that person can tell, the only appreciable difference is the name and sticker price.

In that respect, this series is a good learning tool for why serious bikers spend serious coin.

 To be fair, they did opt to service the rear shock on the budget bike, instead of getting an Amazon knock-off there.

 From memory that fork uses a cartridge that can’t be opened, so you’d need to kill it just to have a look inside

 I stopped using my old hero 3 because everyone nowadays uses hypersmooth cams and my footage always just looks to shaky. But holy smokes maybe not even as shaky as the footage in this video. Whats up with that?

 Almost any other concept would be more interesting.

 @panaphonic: i'm willing to bet they can find another useless concept lol

 I hope they add an extra lap for the final test, but swap bikes. We need to know who's faster.

 10000% agreed. no one would waste their money on those horrible tires etc. instead they should fix up the parts they already have on the bike. it's not helping people who are actually trying to budget upgrade.

 I suffered through all the comments to find this one.

 yes, i dont understand why they downgraded the bike lol

 XO1 vs Microshift would be legitimately interesting.

 Too right, I’m embarrassed for those pair of goons.
Expensive over stock is useful but expensive over the worst parts possible is just for retards.

 It would be nice to see if you could acctually make an old bike ride well. This is my hobbie, i like to take old bikes and upgrade them to see if i can make them ride well. Currently im riding an 05 santa cruz nomad and a 2003 dekerf implant. Ive ridden new bikes and can honestly say i enjoy riding these older bikes just as much. Its cool to me to see old bijes get new life! Would be a cool series to see some of this happen to show new riders you dont need to buy the latest and greatest to have a blast in the sport!