Tech Briefing: New Bikes, Waterless Cleaner, Accessories & More - June 2019

 @tegnamo: nope, mid 30's guy who likes to ride fast down technical trails and not looking forward to lazy kooks on mopeds going up those trails at 15mph.

 @tegnamo: another 31y old here who hates E-Bikes in the woods.

 In the winter I’ll make trips to Sedona and Moab frequently. Despite signs that clearly state no ebikes they certainly were plenty out there. That said not one single negative experience with people riding them - only prob is the amount of people on normal bikes with no trail experience / etiquette

 @Grmasterd: that's the majority of my experience too. Until recently it was mostly 50/60 year olds (or people who weren't fit) on them who were riding pretty slowly, and it sounds like that's what you're seeing.

But just wait for a few of the people you say have "no trail experience / etiquette" to get eBikes. That's when the problems get even worse and it's starting to happen in my area. Giving people who behave badly on trails 750 additional watts to be stupid with pours gasoline onto their stupidity.

 @tegnamo: No he comments like a reasonable person given the situation ~ hope you meet one of those nit wits hauling ass up while you're hauling ass down on a blind switchback.

 If it is a two direction trail (both up and downhill), you shouldn't go fast downhill anyway. It doesn't matter much whether someone is climbing at 15km/h or 25km/h when you're descending at 40km/h. And maybe a climber with pedal assist will look up and ahead instead of someone without pedal assist who's climbs whilst staring at his front wheel.

Either way, I've got no bad experience with bikes (or any experience at all, actually) so I won't jump on bandwagon nor hate train anytime soon. I'll just ride my bike instead .

 @vinay: but strava

 @vinay: going fast downhill, but leaving yourself enough margin to stop for hikers and bikers, is one thing. going fast downhill, but having to leave yourself enough margin to stop for someone going uphill at 15-20mph is quite another.

 @gumbytex: a lot of trail conflicts could be resolved simply by designating more directional trails and new trail systems that are designed as directional

 @tegnamo: except for the junkyard.

 And stay off my lawn!!!

 @Grmasterd: I've ridden them, I don't like them and though older (57) will continue to pedal my slow decrepit arse up the hills and then ... wait for it.... descend as I've fully earned my turns

 @vinay: young guys on eBikes in my area are going up climbs in 10 minutes that pros (like top 15 in the USA, XC) do in 15 minutes going fast. it's a big difference.

there's no comparison between a pro on a regular mtb and someone letting a motor on turbo mode do most of the work. I'm not making this stuff up.

 Which leads to who has the right of way.

Currently, uphill rider.

But if the rider is now climbing at 30 km should the rules of the trail be updated?????

Additionally, many ebikes are modified before they leave the dealer to remove speed limiters etc... at this point they are no longer bicycles under Motor Vehicle Act they are motorcycles. (I have been passed in my car while i was doing 55+ km by an ebike going up hill).

Soon there will be no more gas dirt bikes, time for ebikes to just take over their trails.

Motor = Motorcycle end of debate

 @vinay: electricbikereview.com/forum/threads/tested-turbo-levo-watt-output-surprising-results.14452

I can put out a sustained 360W for 15min or so. Not near pro, but pretty solid for just a local guy.

A Turbo Levo can sustain 660W. 660 + 360 = 1,020. If I was a young stupid guy (which I was at 23) I could go up 15 minute climbs on a Turbo Levo at a sustained 1,020 watts. Hence the problem.

 I want normal bikes off the trails! They are slow, dumb, and archaic.

 @HARv379: This actually made me think.

Part of the problem is that ebike riders are coming from a mt bike background. Hence they want to ride Mt bike trails.

Does anyone know any ebikers who came from a dirt bike background? If so where do they ride? Do they ride what they are familiar with ie the dirt bike trails or do they ride what they used to the dirt bike trails?

 I can imagine a place for pedal assist when you've got a long uphill slog on a paved access road or a gravel forest service road. There's plenty of space to get around people without being a jerk about it. And while they (or I) will grumble at you, it's not really affecting anyone negatively.

Where it *does* affect me negatively is when I'm lapping my local short loop. It's a 60 second downhill, and a 5-6 minute single-track climb. Throw a couple e-bikers in the mix, and suddenly I'm having to stop and pull off the trail for 2-3 times on every climb so they can pass me, at literally 3x my speed.

And of course if it's not a great time for me to stop to let them pass (like, I'm on the steep section where I don't want to stop), I get increasingly insistent "ON YOUR LEFT!" proclamations. I know you are dude, and I don't care.

 Right now, Pivot is on my list of bikes not to buy. At our town’s recent outdoor fest, they opened one loop to e-bikes for demo. But, next thing I’m getting passed by a guided group of Pivot Shuttles going up a trail that they are banned on. I politely let them know that this trail doesn’t allow e-bikes, the leader tries telling me that the trail is a Class 1 trail. When I call him out on that and say BLM has banned them, he just responds, well it’s just new technology they will open them soon and keeps leading the group.

I’ve been a part of trail advocacy since 1990. The whole argument for access has been that our bikes don’t have motors. Somehow, I don’t see the hiking and equestrian groups buying into this new tech, especially when the users disregard closures. I’m totally down with handicap placards for older people and those with disabilities getting access with an e-bike, but the other guys are going to eff it up.

 @igxqrrl: we ride our dirt bikes, ebikes and mtbs on the same trails around my part of the country. There are "motorized use" trails, "non motorized use" and some hiking only trails. A few places (within a 2 hour radius of my house) have mtb only trails that you are allowed to ride ebikes on, but I can only think of one or two spots. We ride ebikes only where we ride our dirt bikes. We also mountain bike on those same trails. We have no user issues between the three. Our problems are the hippie hikers and the old grouchy horse people. They are the ones who seem to have user conflict.


This shit is pretty simple, everyone on here is just salty af. Yield order is ALWAYS moto > ebike > bike > hikers > (damn) horses

 This could all be solved by only riding park/dh

 Have never been to or ridden in the US, how is it that people cant handle their shit and adding a >1hp electric motor causes so much hate and outrage? Where i am from trails are managed by local clubs or trail centres who generally do a great job, there are specific up and down trails, 2 way trails are marked & you sure as heck dont see people bombing down them at 40kph. E bikes are welcome anywhere and people who use them are generally older and the ones who are younger/more fit use them responsibly, people respect the trails & each other (generally) and get on with their lives.

 @zyoungson: Because Merica f**k yeah.

Finally saw a couple of e-biker toss pots (for the most part ebikers are just regular bikers) recently at a trail centre and if they spread as fast as enduro bro's we're all doomed.

 @gumbytex: no one is riding an ebike up a Single-track hill at 15-20mph. One of my bikes is an ebike and my average speed for an ebike ride is only 2-3mph faster than riding my full suspension bike.

We have lots of ebikes around my area and non of this stuff you guys are complaining about actually happens. There are no noobs trying to crush trails they shouldn’t be, no guys crushing up switchbacks at 15mph, no trails being destroyed.

We get it, you hate ebikes. Just don’t buy one. Stop bitching about other people owning them.

 @zyoungson: they can’t handle their shat. It’s insane. They think you are on some rocket propelled sled swing a bat at others as you ride by.

 @Grmasterd: this sounds a little negative but i can see a challenge for MTB in general through greater access to more capable bikes, e-bikes that can take a rider further faster - combine this with an inexperienced biker and it wont be long before the authorities start noticing accidents and close trail access etc. I hope it wont come to this, but i recall getting my first full-sus and it shocked me how much faster i could go in a straight line - shame i couldn't corner at the same speed - went back to a hardtail shortly after and developed my skills before my next full-sus. ????

 @gumbytex: this guy talks truth.

 @gumbytex: Alright, I understand that the US scene is quite typical and Pinkbike was supposed to censor this type of content for the North American audience. Actually, I though they said they'd do that. Not sure what went wrong.

Some of what you mention from over there is quite different from what I'm used to over here. Notably:

. Beginners typically start on cheap bikes over here, mostly hardtails. If they have more money, they may get more/better suspension (including rear suspension). I understand US beginners are getting e-bikes which I can imagine can be difficult to handle due to the added weight and indirect response to pedal input.

. People tend to mess with the electronics over there to make them faster. I haven't noticed any of that over here. It may happen, but the overall majority that I have seen doesn't seem to exceed 25km/h.

. People seem to expect slower climbers to pull over and stop on a climb. I've never encountered this. For most people, stopping on a challenging climb implies the end of their climb because it is too hard to start riding again. So no one expects that from someone else. It would be a bit unfair. Of course I also encounter slower climbers (even though I don't have pedal assist) who get a bit nervous and embarrassed and pull over even though I don't require them to. Which is a shame of course. So usually I maintain a fair distance (to not upset them) until I spot a section where I can overtake and that's where I pedal past them. I don't think everyone maintains that distance but I've never had someone overtake me on a climb in a way that I had to pull over and stop. I doubt anyone would dare to because it wouldn't make you any friends. Apparently the mentality is different in the US. Just like the situation @whambat points at. Breaking rules doesn't help the lobby. Same would happen if that trail guide would bring a group of (unassisted) mountainbikers on dedicated hiking trails where cycling is not allowed.

Other than that, I don't get how power comes into the discussion. I road traffic, we just have maximum speeds. Some cars need more power to reach that speed than others and that's all fine. As long as they just don't exceed that maximum speed and I think that's fair. I think that is just as fair for bicycle speeds on a trail. It takes just as much anticipation to react to a 110kg heavy guy going up a climb as it takes to react to a 55kg lady going the same speed, even though the heavy guy is pumping out double the power (ignoring bike weight).

Accepting the power statement then, basic physics tells that if people travel in opposite directions on the same trail, they're not going to have a 15 minute encounter. Now I don't know much about power outputs but I suppose a good few athletes can pump out those 1020W for a shorter time without any assistance. What if you meet them just when they happen to do just that? How would that be any different to the situation where someone would pump out that same power seven minutes before and after your encounter?

@fabwizard: How was this right of way rule (of having the climber having right of way) constructed? My guess (mind you, guess) is that it was because it is harder to get going again from a standstill, which isn't quite the issue on a descend. Of course pedal assist kind of alleviates this though I am not sure how well these perform in a low speed high torque situation (that is, to get going on a climb from a standstill). But yeah, maybe we will eventually see a change in rules like we see in naval traffic. Like how sailboats have priority over motorboats etc. Either way, I doubt the right of way rule is constructed just because climbing traffic is slower. Hence being able to climb faster doesn't change much about it. Then still, on a descend you still quite quickly exceed the 25km/h someone with pedal assist would theoretically climb at.

Finally, there seems to be a perception that someone who climbs a fireroad under his/her own power is more suitable to ride a tech descend than someone who doesn't. It may go in some cases, but in at least just as many it doesn't. A fit clipped in high saddle roadie may be great at rolling a mountainbike up a long fireroad, but it doesn't necessarily make him/her better at the descend than someone who comes from BMX racing or dirt jumping who has a go at mountainbiking and isn't too great at pumping out steady power for extended climbs. And indeed as @bushwacked pointed out, anything that makes bike safer at speed makes it more dangerous for the inexperienced rider, because it just throws you off at a higher speed. More/better (rear) suspension, stable geometry etc all do that. A bike with pedal assist at worst would throw an inexperienced rider (provided that rider is willing to part with that kind off cash) off on a climb or level section at 25km/h where you'd go slower unassisted. But it is nowhere near the danger of sending an inexperienced rider down an long gravely descend on a modern (unassisted) 150mm travel enduro bike.

 @gumbytex: yup. Because physics????

 @igxqrrl: This exactly.

 @aceface17: yeah, maybe I'll get some bionic legs to make running easier too.

 @zyoungson:
Agree with zyoungson's comment above . I've been riding an ebike for the last 6 months. I'm riding way more and way further than I used to. So much fun I've sold my other bikes. Almost everyone I meet on the trails is enthusiastic about this new way to ride and comment that their next purchase will be an ebike. My local bike shop can't believe the demand. He sells Giant and Merida ebikes and can barely keep up with customer orders. Around here (South Coast NSW) I haven't seen or heard of any problems re standard bike vs ebike riders. After riding BMX & MTB for around 35 years I've joined the ebike revolution and I'm loving it!

 @rstwosix: definitely don't want to be a hater and I'm glad you're having fun - that's what it all about. I just live in a tourist destination at a pretty legit altitude. Fitness is the only thing that will get you on some pretty amazing dirt. We already have massive amounts of conflict and traffic in town and on the ski area. Sorry, but the LAST thing I want to see is dozens if not hundreds of bikes choking up our trails. If you've been in the game for 30 years, you know the drill - pain and fitness gets the goods for those who are willing. Cheers man????

 @rstwosix: sorry for the ???? ????

 @vinay: I think the IMBA came up with the uphill rider getting the right of way as a way of controlling the DH riders speed. Knowing the uphill rider has right of way forces the DH rider to maintain a certain level of control.


Here in BC if your gas motor is small enough, just like pedal assist electric, you are considered a bicycle(motor vehicle act). How would other trail users feel if I slapped a gas motor onto my Mt Bike and rode the trails. I imagine the outcry would be heard pretty quick here on PB.

I think that gas dirt bikes are going to go the way of the dinosaur in the long run, why cant the ebikes take over the rift left by them? Honestly, if i had a ebike i would want 50 hp not 1 hp. Why have a motor if you cant roost.

 @gumbytex: prove it.

 @PtDiddy: ya just making a bunch of claims no one can fact check.

This is normal American behavior now.

 @reverend27: actually makes sense that his average speed is only 2-3 mph faster. The up probably faster and down probably slower due to extra weight of bike not handling as well.

But remember 3 mph is 20% would be approx 20% faster if your average is 15 mph(which is quite fast for trail riding average)

 @fabwizard: so far my average speed on my ebike has been between 11-12mph. I’m between 7.5-9.5 on my hardtail on same or similar trails. I’m in eco mode about 90% of the time. I use trail or turbo mode for shuttling up access roads.

The downhill speeds are as fast or slightly faster for me. Pretty close to the same though. I haven’t had the levo long so I’ll probably get a little faster on the downs. But I was really surprised how well it shreds downhill. The only thing needing to get used to is a little more braking time before a turn on steep switchbacks. That’s due to the extra weight. The rest of the time the bike feels pretty stinking playful. At least until I get back on my hardtail, which then feels super light and playful.

 @zyoungson: we like to over react and have strong opinions on things we know little to nothing about - just how a lot of us roll

 @gumbytex: You cannot go uphill at 15-20 mph on an ebike. Until you go for a ride on one, you might want hold off on the judgement. Arguing without accurate, factual data is pretty pointless.

 I get there is a place for ebikes for older, injured, less fit folks. I would probably like to ride one to get to across town or on a long double track, FSR or rail trail - but not on a mtb trail. These e(motor)bikes simply do not mix safely with mtb's for the reasons gumbytex and others have outlined. I prefer to mtb on challenging trails and i enjoy climbing to earn my descents and luckily there is a decades long tradition of building great trails where i (and probably you all) live - for pedal MTB's. Dropping motorized bikes that weigh twice as much, can move uphill many times faster, onto trails designed for pedal bikes is asking for trouble when riders mtbers and ebikers are mixed on same trails. Kinda like letting motorized boats into traditional wilderness canoe routes - both valid pastimes but not a smart/considerate/necessary mix. On some easier trails, more urban areas, purpose built multi-use trails etc., where mixing not such a potential problem - great. But on more challenging trails built by mtbers for mtbers lets keep em seperate (at the discretion of the experienced local trail society). Surely passionate ebikers will build their own trails that cater to their needs. When i choose to ride an ebike i will accept that i should not be on the same trails i used to ride on my mtb. First time i (or you) meet someone doing 25kph uphill on an ebike and i"m doing 40 kph down on my mtb on a traditional mtb trail, it will be too late for this discussion to be had sensibly.

 @brentkratz: Thank you for the calm demeanor. My background. I am 49, have been mountain biking since 1984. I have ridden every type of bike since then. I have been building trails (a lot) for the past 20 years at Dry Hill in Port Angeles, WA. I have been riding ebikes for the past 4 years now, almost exclusively. I have yet to have a single negative interaction on the trails. The ONLY drama with these happens on the internet.

It seems to me that most of the drama stems from two things. 1. people that have never ridden one and don't have an accurate sense of what they are capable of (Most times a little less than you think) and 2. an assumption that people that ride them are a$$holes.

Here are some of the arguments:
Myth
"Ebikes are going to be going uphill too fast and will cause a collision with someone going downhill in the opposite direction.
Fact
Ebikes (Class 1) DO NOT go 20mph uphill. If you are going up a trail on a standard bike at 5mph, you would not exceed 8ish mph on an ebike. This is something that will only be understood by riding one. Not in the parking lot, on a trail.

Myth
"MTB trails were not designed for the weight of ebikes"
Fact
Your average weight increase from a standard bike to an ebike is 15lbs. This is nothing compared to the variance of weight of riders. I weigh a fuzz under 200 and I ride with people from 140 to 240. The bike is in no way relevent to the conversation.

Myth
Ebikes are going to enable too many people into the way back that shouldn't/couldn't get there on their own power.
Fact
The majority of people buying $5-8K bikes are existing mountain bikers that want to experience this new thing that has come to our world. If there are 100 mountain bikers now, in the future we will see 80 of them on standard bikes and 20 on ebikes. Not 120 bikers.

Again, I'm super old, and we had a very similar conversation (sans internet) about suspension believe it or not. There were purists who said that it didn't belong in mountain biking. And this was before there were MTB specific trails. The races were all at ORV parks.

I have been blissfully avoiding the argument for a while now (it use to spin me up quite a bit), but now I just ride when/where I want, and don't be an a$$hole about it. I do more trailwork than almost anyone I know. I have a mini fleet of ebikes that I share with whoever wants to try it, and I feel strongly that they will blend in like suspension and disc brakes in the future. I am still plenty fit to ride my standard bikes. I do however find that I have more fun and ride more often on my Levo and Kenevo, which is making me fitter because I ride everyday again.

 @gumbytex: You are 100% wrong about everything you just said. I'm sure you know that, but just pointing it out.

 @brentkratz: olympicdirt said it better than I could. Why would you ever be in a situation where an ebiker is riding up a downhill trail? (good) trails in my area are definitely directional. it isnt going to happen. Also more ebikers in the sport means more people to build etc.

 @zyoungson: Well Kiwi's are generally very considerate polite people! But even here in Oz where we are much ruder on the whole and there are plenty of e bikes I see no real angst on our trails. No shortage of e bike dislike from some quarters but only grizzle I saw was when someone put an ebike on a shutte

I'd be willing to bet there are plenty of keyboard warriors anyway and most trails systems in the US people get along too, I haven't ridden there but visited several times most Americans are more polite than Aussies too

 @olympicdirtsociety:
Agree totally with your post olympicdirtsociety. Thanks.

 @olympicdirtsociety: Hey thanks for the sober and informative reply! I am a really old guy! - at 61 had my share of full rigid, hardtail, race XC and full suspension bikes, coached and mentored a lot of young people into the sport, worked on more than a few trails, and still climb up to rip down a pretty good BC black trail - hell i even road ride. I have no 'religious' opposition to ebikes and sheepishly admit i haven't ridden one yet, so i do appreciate your experience. I completely agree with you that much of the drama exists only in the anonymity of the internet and that much is accomplished in the real world by heeding that sage adage, "Just don't be a dick!". I guess my problem with ebikes really boils down to a belief that they are fundamentally different from mtb's (motorized vs human powered, 'cheating' vs natural), and therefore will create a diverging experiences that may collide (figuratively and literally lol). Pretty sure i would enjoy riding trails with you on your ebike. As you and @aceface17 have confirmed, the ebikes make mtbing easier - you can get up the hills faster with less effort so you get in more rides per day and can ride more days per week. Making the sport easier will bring more people to the trails - the previous natural selection no longer applies. Trails already hurting with changing climate and '6 day endurobro race' holidays. I can see the 3 of us riding challenging trails and then you guys naturally tiring of how slow i am going back up the mountain and saying 'see ya dude, off to get in more laps'. Here is the seperation. The less considerate worry me more. The hackers will surely get their faster/further ebikes into places they previously had no interest in since it was too hard, and the social media experience seekers may follow - not only more people on the trails but people who dont share the same appreciation for getting there the human-powered way (litter, party speakers etc). Already seen problems with MX riders taking to mtb trails. Guess my canoe/motorboat analogy expresses it, but can see how ebikes more similar to mtb. I hope you are right about ebikers likely being ex-mtbrs. That said i think the core ebike people need to organize and communicate with the core mtb/trail society people and work out the ground sharing rules rather than just letting this happen willy nilly. Just really want to maintain a wonderful healthy outdoor experience, so hopefully we can stem the seperation between ebikers and mtbrs and emphasize the similarities going forward. Cheers!

 Can this tech briefing be re-posted without any E-bikes? I think everyone missed the really cool orange skull on the front of the bike and how that would really change your riding experience? JKN

www.pinkbike.com/u/stiingya/blog/the-end-is-nigh-or-a-few-more-last-minute-ideas.html

 I think those guys are off due to unforseen sickness.

 @h82crash: Not unforeseen radness?

 I am guessing its right next to that special place in Hell for snowboards made in the 80's and 90's?

 I dig a lot of trail, a whole lot of trail. Sometimes I have remind myself to to take a day off from digging to go ride. I hope that Ebikes, mountain bikes and even hikers enjoy my trails. Not everyone enjoys digging and that's just fine with me but I hope they enjoy the trails in whatever way they choose. You couldn't have said it better when you say that people need to stop worrying and focus on what they bring to the party. Trails for all. Trail forever.

 @pbuser23411:
You bet!

 Apparently, Ray, the guy in charge of day-to-day there broke both his arms.

 Child seats using that shotgun type design existed long before the macride was introduced

 Hey @husstler – Dan here from Shotgun. Mac-ride is a great product, I created the shotgun seat because it wouldn't fit my bike as I'd cut down my steerer. But @Vulhelm is right, it's not exactly new. We have another child seat in NZ called 'Do Little' which has been around for 20+ years here. Cheers, Dan

 Sorry, I know, sometimes it irks me too. But only so many URL's out there to grab with "bike" left in them...

 Not really the ones that hate the idea of ebikes won't listen to reason at all.

I remember someone telling Sam Pilgrim he would stick a stick in his spokes if he caught him on "his" trail on an ebike.

Then I laughed at the thought of Sam smashing his ass.

I don't have an ebike but kind of want one just to see who would want some shit from me.

 @reverend27: So many pros been pimping the e-bike. Aaron Gwin, Matt Hunter, Sam Pilgrim, etc. Gwin says he uses it for recovery rides instead of riding the road bike for recovery which makes sense.

 that it might make a lot of cents

 Why u dont put youface on it instead ?

 Awww, a "troll" would have been a great idea. Next time! I added a wolf?

www.pinkbike.com/photo/17300240

 @stiingya: I can even model it in 3d. I made this sketch 2 years ago:
www.instagram.com/p/BryVfTlF3Ot/?igshid=1x47d72nkqabb

 @WAKIdesigns: very cool! I'd be afraid of it not fitting many frames if it extended back so far. But definitely cool that way!!

 @stiingya: do you model it by hand amd then make a negative form or on computer?

 @WAKIdesigns: Digital sculpting, block up in Rhino, then to Zbruh, or just all in Zbrush.

I'm not talented enough to sculpt in real life!

 Whys that?

 @nordland071285: its to brittle of a metal, and not strong enough for a DJ frames needs. When it does break, it snaps and absorbes no energy, so your body takes all the energy when you hit the ground. Anyone that has watched Ti bikes break know what I'm talking about.

 @H3RESQ: thanks dude, I dunno why I thought it was the king of metals for bike frames, hence the price
Thanks for the education!!