Staff Ride: Brian's '10 Year' RAAW Madonna V2 Project Bike
Photos by Devan Francis
STAFF RIDES
Brian Park's '10 Year' RAAW Madonna V2 Project Bike
Brian Park's '10 Year' RAAW Madonna V2 Project Bike
"What bike would you get if you had to keep it forever?"
We're unapologetically into new, exciting tech, but sometimes that cycle of new-new-new for its own sake doesn't sit well with me. Bikes are expensive, have environmental impacts, and should be awesome for many years. Forever is a long time, but over the last few years I've been thinking about what I'd build for the long haul.
For this project I approached the challenge of building what I’d want if I was going to be forced to keep it for 10 years. A decade seems like a reasonable amount of time. And no, I should come clean off the bat, I'm not going to keep this bike for 10 years—I've had it for a year, and I'm definitely going to run it for another year or two at least, but eventually I'll pass it on.
Maybe I'll make it a condition that whoever gets it from me will need to agree to check in once a year about the bike, what's failed, what's working well, etc...
Maybe I'll make it a condition that whoever gets it from me will need to agree to check in once a year about the bike, what's failed, what's working well, etc...
Brian's RAAW Madonna V2 Details
• Intended use: Enduro-ish
• Travel: 160mm rear / 170mm fork
• Wheel size: 29"
• Frame construction: Aluminum
• 64.5° head angle, 440mm chainstays
• Weight: 36.5 lb / 16.6 kg (size M with pedals)
• Price: I don't want to talk about it
• raawmtb.com
• Intended use: Enduro-ish
• Travel: 160mm rear / 170mm fork
• Wheel size: 29"
• Frame construction: Aluminum
• 64.5° head angle, 440mm chainstays
• Weight: 36.5 lb / 16.6 kg (size M with pedals)
• Price: I don't want to talk about it
• raawmtb.com
Basically my approach was to only choose things I believe would survive 10 years of hard riding, not including wear items. I did pay attention to those wear items and didn't choose anything totally disposable, but wasn't going to compromise by running hard compound tires or anything silly like that. I originally made a "no carbon" rule, just for giggles, but recently noticed that the seat shell is carbon, so I'm sorry to have failed you all.
Anyway, lets move on to the build...
FRAME
For the frame I went with the RAAW Madonna V2. It's an absolute tank of a foundation, massively overbuilt with enormous pivots. Mike Kazimer's review was titled 'Ready for the Apocalypse' so it seemed the perfect fit. It's definitely not light at over 9lb (size M, with Float X2). By comparison, mainstream carbon enduro frames are ~7lb, and there are plenty of lighter options out there. Despite the heft, I love RAAW's design ethos of being utterly no-nonsense, and I love that their V2 of the much lauded original design was iterative and subtle, rather than throwing everything out and doing something new for newness' sake. If I'd had the choice I'd have gone with the raw aluminum colour to stick with the theme of longevity—raw just hides wear so well. Unfortunately raw had a crazy long lead time.
A smashy 160/170 enduro bike is definitely overkill for what I like to ride, but after some shoulder and arm surgeries I'm pretty sore these days, so I made the decision to over-bike. I don't mind carrying some extra bike around if it's going to make me more comfortable and safe.
The geometry is modern, but not silly. I thought about getting something slacker, but decided to get more wheelbase out of its 455mm (size M) reach than thinking about its fairly neutral 64.5° headtube angle too much. The Grim Donut is really fun and I do think elements of it are the future of race bikes, but I'm already overbiking with this thing so I didn't want to end up with something unmanageable.
The original setup with the Fox 38. Damn I needed to cut my lawn.
The current setup with the EXT Era.
SUSPENSION
For the rear shock I went with a Float X2, and it's been great. It's taken me the better part of a year to have the time and energy to do enough back-to-back runs that it's dialled in now. But on the fork I cheated a little bit. I had a Fox 38, which I really enjoyed, and then Kaz sent up that EXT Era for a second opinion, and well, I like it more. I didn't realize how much I liked it until I took it off, and then immediately put it back on. I've largely been avoiding this writeup because I am hoping Kaz has forgotten about that fork. I'd really like to cut that extra steerer tube down...
It's worth noting that the recommended settings for the EXT Era were bang on for me. I bracketed in either direction a little, but ended up going back to their original recommendation. Super impressive on their part.
Stupid power.
I think these are the best looking rotors ever.
BRAKES
I went a little bit insane with the brakes. Trickstuff Maximas are already the most powerful brakes out there, and then I paired them to some prototype 223mm rotors that Cornelius at Intend BC had made before he cancelled his brake rotor project. I believe they were made by German disc rotor manufacturer Brake Stuff who still produce a similar rotor called the Punch. They are some of the best looking rotors I've ever seen, and the theory behind them (many little holes rather than a few big holes = smoother braking, less pad wear, more surface area for air to cool) seems reasonable. They've worked amazingly, but I ended up taking them off because I want to save them. I know, I'm broken. Now I've got utterly pedestrian Trickstuff Dachle HD 223 rotors on there (jokes, just in case...).
Anyway the brakes are mindblowing. They've ruined all other brakes for me. Stupid power, zero issues (except for that one time I forgot how to install Goodridge lines—cut me some slack, I hadn't done it in 15+ years). I'm firmly in the you-can't-have-too-much-power-I'll-modulate-with-my-fingers camp. You have to work for a whole year to afford these brakes, and then wait another year to receive them, but I guarantee that these brakes will give everyone else brake envy for at least ten years.
Home brew brake routing, complete with inspirational message.
I struggled a little with brake hose routing. The Goodridge line was too thick to route where it was supposed to go between the BB and the swingarm, plus that routing pulled a lot of housing as the bike went through its travel. To fix that, I 3D printed a guide for the chainstay and a plug for the main pivot axle that has the housing go right through the middle of the pivot. Shout out to Matterhackers for help with the 3D printer and their excellent NylonX carbon fibre filament.
This way it pulls virtually no hose, requires less of it, and simplifies the routing a lot. I hope RAAW incorporates something like this for V3. And while they're at it, the shift routing could be simplified as well—maybe running under the chainslap protector.
This way it pulls virtually no hose, requires less of it, and simplifies the routing a lot. I hope RAAW incorporates something like this for V3. And while they're at it, the shift routing could be simplified as well—maybe running under the chainslap protector.
Ruben please don't sue me for appropriating your brand.
The venerable DT Swiss 240 EXP hubs.
WHEELS
Wheels were a conundrum. I knew I wanted to build something up because I've missed wheelbuilding the last few years, and I knew I wanted to use those new DT Swiss 240 EXP hubs. After a lot of waffling I went with a full DT build: J-bend Competition Race spokes, Prolock Squorx Prohead Alu nipples, and XM481 rims. For those of you counting, yes, I committed the blasphemy of 28-hole rims. I forgot to write the exact weight down, but the wheelset is well under 1800g for a pretty robust aluminum wheelset. To be honest, the 28-hole decision was mostly to see if I could get away with it. I hope I'm not cursing myself here, but so far I've gotten away with it. The rims have had a pretty rough life, but tires still seat just fine, the spokes stay tensioned, and they still run straight.
Originally the tires were Maxxis Assegais with EXO+ casings, because this is more of an overgrown trail bike than a enduro smasher for me. At least that was the idea. Anyway they had tons of grip and I love how predictable they are, but I did get more pinch flats than I'd like so I went with Schwalbe's Super Gravity casing on the Magic Marys I replaced them with. Why not Maxxis again? Well I haven't ridden anything other than Maxxis on my personal bike in years, and that's silly, but also because I like their skinwalls. I'm vain, but I think it looks badass now.
I was running 28 psi rear, 26 psi front with the EXO+ Assegais, but I may drop a few psi with the Super Gravity casing Magic Marys.
The original setup with Fox 38 and Assegais.
DRIVETRAIN
I went with an XT drivetrain, because I thought something a little more workmanlike than XTR would suit this build, but then I threw that blue collar nature out the window and put Cane Creek eeWings cranks on it. They're still a lot of money even if you amortize it over 10 years, but I don't think there's a lighter all-metal crank out there that's rated for any sort of aggressive riding. I've got the crankset in Cane Creek's Hellbender BB, which also makes some bold claims about bearing longevity so I figured this would be a great application for it. The setup has been as flawless as you'd expect.
I put on an AbsoluteBlack chainguide/guard and an oval chainring, just to try. While I can't say I notice any dramatic difference in oval vs round chainrings, it's been just good—no issues backpedalling or shifting or dropping chains.
Newmen cockpit, Trickstuff brakes, and S&M Hoder grips. Not a combination you see every day.
CONTROLS
The cockpit is a 40mm Newmen Evolution SL 318.4 stem and Evolution SL 318 bar. The stem is pleasantly normal with a standard four-bolt design, but it's very light at 90g and has no weight or use restrictions. The 9° back and 9° up bar is really interesting and I like that position. Having that much upsweep almost feels similar to the 12° and 16° backsweep SQ-lab bars I've tried on my hardtail; all of them just feel a little more natural to me than the usual 9° back and 5° up bars out there. I've got S&M Hoder grips on there, which are so long they run right up to the brakes. It's a bit odd having that much grip, but they're a great balance between the softness of my usual favourite Animal Edwins, the tackiness and thinness of Renthal push-ons, and the cushion of ODI Longnecks. I think they're made by ODI as well, they have that feel anyway.
Pedals are Syntace NumberNine2 Titans (size L) because they're light, have a massive platform, and a grease fitting for easy maintenance. I also tried the Pedalling Innovations pedals for a while last year, and while I think there's something to their long platform foot position, I didn't notice a huge change when I went back to the Syntace ones.
Set up with the Vecnum Nivo. The mechanical feeling is a bit different after riding so many smooth feeling cartridge posts, but the action is excellent and it's been super reliable on this bike and now on my hardtail.
I had a Vecnum Nivo 212mm dropper post on the bike originally. It was awesome and super light, but I moved it over to an XC-ish hardtail build I'm working on. I switched to a Fox Transfer, which has a history of great reliability, but the return speed was just too slow for my tastes and I wanted a little more drop. Finally I went to what's probably our favourite all-round dropper right now: the OneUp Dropper v2 (210mm version shimmed down to 200mm). I'm using Shimano's non-series SL-MT800-IL dropper post lever and I think it's the best feeling one out there. The saddle is a Specialized Power Arc. I get along with it, the stubby shape works for my position on the bike and the raised back is nice for pushing into on climbs.
The Kaz-inspired 'Nano Bracket' I designed and 3D printed for holding a tube. If you want to print your own the STL file is here.
DETAILS
Other details include a ti King cage because I'm fancy, a OneUp EDC tool in the steerer, NSB fork cable guide because the 6mm Goodridge lines don't fit in the stock one, Stans sealant, and a 3D printed "Nano Bracket" tube strap holder I designed to hold a Schwalbe Aerothan tube. I've also been messing around with the idea of making a cover for the other side of the main axle void and using that as storage. I haven't quite got the design sorted out but we'll see.
Details... This NS Billet clamp actually fits the 6mm Goodridge hose.
LESSONS LEARNED FROM A YEAR ON THE MADONNA
One year on and I've had a great time on the Madonna. A lot of bikes feel pretty tired after a year—creaks that are impossible to track down, roached bearings, etc., but not this one. After a quick refresh a few weeks ago it feels brand new.
Riding the bike has been amazing. Now keep in mind, I'm not a tech editor and haven't ridden every enduro bike out there, but damn if this thing isn't a revelation. It took a few days at Big White for my brain to get over the crash I had the year before, but I did eventually get up to speed. It's composed, it corners insanely well, and I feel right at home with its geometry. The EXT fork is a work of art, and this bike paired with the Float X2 is just magic.
Moving back to longevity, what wore out? Not much. Although I'm mostly a weekend warrior these days, I did manage to get through a set of Trickstuff pads (Power compound), a set of Maxxis Assegai EXO+ tires, and some Renthal Ultra Sticky push-on grips.
The hubcap-style seals do their job. I preemptively got some Enduro MAX style bearings to replace all my pivots, but after a year of riding, when I went to replace them, the frame's bearings literally looked brand new—even after being ridden a bunch on sloppy winter days, put away wet, and then eventually pressure washed with reckless abandon. Same goes for the Cane Creek BB. I'm going to have to save them as spares for the next owner.
The brakes have ruined me for life. They're so good. I still don't believe that nobody else can make brakes this powerful. It's just leverage after all, not magic. I want Trickstuff to succeed, so this is a bit selfish, but I hope other brands figure out what Trickstuff is doing and get their own brakes sorted out ASAP.
On the topic of brakes, I have a nostalgic soft spot for the Goodridge lines. Can we have those back? Is there a good source for them in North America? I had to raid Levy's stash to find some 20-year-old hose in order to run a longer line when I built the bike up.
Finally, I love how quiet the bike is. The DT 240 hub has an understated, bright-sounding buzz, but otherwise there's zero clattering around.
Okay, let's talk about some issues. The nitpicks are that the cable routing was a little annoying until I made the guides, and you need about 9 different torx and hex keys to work on Trickstuff brakes. A slightly bigger issue is the rear axle's tendency to come loose. It may just be a consequence of non-bridged seatstays, but some Loctite did fix it.
The most significant negative is the weight. Even with what I think is an insanely nice, lightweight build, it's pretty heavy. At 36.5lb it is probably ~4lb heavier than what it could be if I hadn't been choosing overbuilt stuff and avoiding carbon. Are those 4lb the price of longevity? Probably.
Can't wait for summer. The 2x2 motorcycle bike rack was super fun last year.
FINAL THOUGHTS
I get tired of the keeping-up-with-the-jones bike builds on Instagram. While there's nothing wrong with buying new, exciting bike stuff when there's a performance benefit, buying less and better things helps me put aside some middle class guilt about my recreational consumption.
The Madonna ticks all those boxes for me, and puts a smile on my face every time I take it out. This was a super fun project, and I'm confident the bike will provide many more years of service. What a beast.
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*Inquisitive face*
Unfortunately the rebuild took me from old WTB KOM i25 rims to KOM "Tough" i29s which have not just dented but flat spotted after the second ride. Once again though, the nipples are fine!
OUCH
With all the suggestions in here (brass nipples, 32h+, Saint cranks, etc etc.), at some point my already heavy enduro bike would be 40lb. It all adds up.
I want my Madonna V2 to be sub 30 lbs but it ain’t happening. I gave it carbon wheels a few months ago and it’s still heavy AF. The price to be paid for durability in general.
after all brass is an alloy too, and even more so as far as spoke nipples go
Also I put an EXT fork on it, eewings, and trickstuff brakes.
My first couple of bikes I spent loads on upgrades which, when you price it up at the end, meant I could have got a better bike in the first place. I don't do that any more.
Also I put an EXT fork on it, eewings, and trickstuff brakes.
THIS ^^^
Don't get me wrong, VERY cool build. And I appreciate it being shared. But me thinks testing 10 thousand dollar bikes for a living pushes the idea of what "not keeping up with the jones" is like...
Also, as he works in the business, I'm quite sure he gets some stuff cheap or free as a result. He probably also samples a lot of stuff and gets to work out where to spend money to get the best value.
No, its not a budget build but I do think that he's met his build criteria and has a build that should last a long time and not need any money spending on it beyond routine servicing.
I'm not sure why it's making some people so cross?
Also I put an EXT fork on it, eewings, and trickstuff brakes."
You misunderstand. He meant that he was tired of keeping up with the Jones and instead opted to nuke them from space.
I'm moderately confident Trickstuff isn't going anywhere, other than maybe getting purchased by someone bigger for their IP. They've held slow and steady growth for years and have a well established niche. Plus, I have a boatload of spare pads, seals, adapters, and small parts, so I *should* be okay for the long haul. Maybe I'll pick up a set of spare levers just in case...
@dave-f WHy did you have to remind me of Maverick! Such a good bike company. First practical dropper post. Amazing fork. Amazing bike.
@dave-f:
We have been around since 2003 and we still offer service for every brake we have made. We even keep producing spare parts If necessary. No worries.
For Trickstuff Can’t quote, but have read a comment on them still holding parts for their first ever brakes. since long term sustainability is one of their core principles I’d say your more likely to be able to get spare parts from them in 10 years than any other brake realised in 2020.
I'm not saying that the eewings aren't stiff enough as I haven't rode them. Just that when you go thin wall and ti stiffness goes down.
Also when you weld titanium any oxygen contamination makes the weld prone to failure
Design/shape may change things, but comparing material to material, titanium is stiffer than aluminum.
And materials aside, wall thickness doesn’t appreciably change stiffness, OD of tube has far greater significance.
Even on a budget its a blast. Hunting for that lightly used part for less than 1/2 the original price makes the end result feel pretty rewarding. Don't get me started on "new old stock" parts... They're the best. Break something or don't life it? The hunt is back on!
However I think what he wanted to do here is create a bike made of durable parts that would all last 10 years, which I don't see why they won't. Brian never said it was going to be cheap, I think his comment about not keeping up with the Joneses is that this isn't hugely flashy, there's no glossy carbon or super lightweight this or that, yeah the cranks are ridiculous and the brakes too, but apart from that I think it's ok.
"I approached the challenge of building what I’d want if I was going to be forced to keep it for 10 years"
"Building what I'd want" - That answers your question about durability, as it throws in the personal choice being a factor.
"If I was forced to keep it for 10 years" - That answers your question about not keeping it, as he's not actually being forced to.
It's an article on a bike website. These things are as much for entertainment as they are for anything else.
Aside from the aforementioned novelty of a "10 year bike" concept, a few things really stand out to me...
1) Great looking bike!
2) Why would you want to commit 10 years to one bike? You don't know for sure how you will like it.
3) Trends, and standards will certainly change over that 10 year period.
4) This $10-12k bike will be nearly worthless in 10 years... so you have sunk those funds and will ultimately have to do it again from the top.
5) That weight is just a non-starter... 36.5lbs! That's why he's talking about selling it already!
1. That's a very nice looking bike.
2. I like the premise - and as a former serial bike swapper, I have thought myself maybe I could keep my current MTBs for 10 years. Geometry is sorted now, suspension works really well and hub spacings even seem to have settled down recently.
3. I hope it's not going to be 10 years until we get that EXT fork review though.
"hard rotors, soft pads" is a design choice the others did not make. Therefore the others brake less good but the pads do not melt like butter in the microwave as the Trickstuff pads tend to do.
Not trying to diss, I use Trickstuff rotors and pads on all my brakes for this very reason.
Just @brianpark: didn't you just do an E-bike commercial? To me, E-bikes are the epitome of disposability.
One thing you definitely should try is the DPX2 shock with the DM56 or DM55 Madonna tune. It may sound strange, but I absolutely prefer the DPX2 on the Madonna. I have extensive ride time on both shocks and if you are not above 80kg, you'll love the DPX2. It offers a more lively feel compared to the X2 and in my experience also more grip. And it makes the bike a lot more snappy, especially with the firmer climb modes. If you pedal your Madonna a lot, you MUST try the DPX2 =)
It really feels very different and it is stupidly easy to set up just perfect. The X2 is really only a bit more controlled around bottom out/rebound at the end of travel.
Ruben and Fox just nailed the DPX2 tune...
There might be advantages in terms of bite, and degassing of the pads (perhaps at the expense of consistency) from cross drilled pads, but since nothing is forcing the air to go through those cross drilled holes, I suspect the loss in thermal capacity, and hence increase in peak temperature will outweigh any cooling advantage.
That said I haven't had a bike brake on a dyno, so this is speculation!
I never thought the holes on a bike rotor are for performance beyond "nothing weighs less than a hole". Feel free to run 300g solid steel, ill keep my holes. It isnt snake oil, the holes just have different purpose. I've never cracked a rotor, so I'm not going to criticize strength since it hasn't been an issue for me.
The suggestion that the many little hole versions wear pads slower seems plausible. Less room for the pad to get pushed into the hole.
As for the idea that more surface area = more cooling, I don't see how it wouldn't help. Not that I'm taking his word on it, but IIRC Cornelius at Intend did a bunch of heat testing and for whatever reason those Aero rotors did cool more effectively.
Smarter people than me please argue it out!
Not saying I blindly accept this result, but would be curious to hear why the many-small-holes approach isn't a good idea.
Mostly though the Intend rotors look sick, which is the most important thing.
Holes give this debris somewhere to go, so the pad is more effective. That's why I think solid discs aren't used - they might have less friction.
In terms of hole size, going too big is bad - anyone who has tried the galfer wave discs knows that you can feel the massive vents pass through the pads and cause judder, and the wear rate is crazy.
Going smaller on holes will have diminishing gains, until at some point you're just giving a lot of your hard earned cash to the machine shop!
I don't think the cross drilled holes are there for the cooling benefit. With braking it is the peak temperature that is most damaging, and the best way to avoid that is to have more mass in your rotor.
It would be cool to try a soild disc. My money would be on lower brake µ, but there might be benefits in terms of consistency.
The temperature profile can be simplified into two effects:
1) During braking there is a rapid increase in temperature. This is dominated by the power input (brake torque * wheel speed), and the heat capacity (mass) of the disc.
The duration over which braking takes place (e.g. 3sec) is so short that the cooling that takes places is not a significant factor in determining the temperature rise that occurs.
2) After braking there is a long duration over which the cooling takes place. There is no power input into the disc, and the shape of the graph is dominated by the cooling.
I'm sceptical about the graph because in phase 1) the temperature increase during braking is smaller for the aero disc. The most likely reason for this is less power input into the brakes. To trust the power input, they should have logged brake pressure and wheel speed, otherwise there is no proof that the braking power is the same.
The other reason I'm sceptical is because if you compare the cooling gradients where both discs start from a similar temperature, the aero brakes do not appear to cool any quicker.
Their logic does make some sense: many smaller holes does improve surface area over fewer larger holes, but it remains to be seen whether this has a powerful effect on cooling or whether they're chasing expensive diminishing returns.
Going bigger on rotor size would be a far more cost effective way to improve the heat capacity and cooling area!
regarding your "middle class consumption" guilt, try not to beat yourself up too much. the only individuals with enough power to do anything about e.g. the climate crisis is the leaders of industry and government. divert that pressure and stress away from yourself and toward those motherf*ckers!
This. 1000 times this
Love your build.
Maybe that didn't come out right?
If you’re going to claim that the reason for the very expensive bits is a decade of hard use, put in a decade of hard use.
I’d love to see the results-will the stanchion anodizing wear off, even with proper maintenance? Will the brake system take air as the seals wear out?
If the claim for super high-end bits is significantly improved durability, I’d like to know.
Otherwise, I’ll keep buying “mid-priced” 3-5k bikes, wearing them out every 1-3 years, and selling them for a grand.
Either way, there is no substitute for a lot of hard miles. Decade bike? 20k miles, minimum.
Only problem is that I can retire in 2028 and that has to deserve a new bike???!!!
Best tire for that bike is a Kenda K270 Dual Sport Rear Tire Sz 5.10x18.
Changes that bike like you wouldn't believe, smooth enough on the pavement, and amazing on loose gravel/wet etc.
I justified some fancy assed parts because I'm going to ride this bike for 10 years. just kidding, I'll ride it for a couple. You know, less than average of most of you readers, but a little longer than most of us industry folk... bet some of those parts will last ten years tho.
Another positive - I pocketed $1200 after building this out and selling the mega. Kept the Reserves too. Consider it my protest to these insane bike prices. I encourage you all to try and get your hands on one of these! You will not regret it
When I finally got around to using it a few weeks ago it turned out to be a huge pain in the ass. The braided SS lines ruined the blade on my hosing cutter and overall it was just too much effort. Coincidentally it was going to go on my own Armageddon bike: single speed, coil spring fork, not a second tier part and way overbuilt for local conditions. It's been going almost 20 years without any failures.
No big deal if you want the Goodridge bits.
Fox 38 1650€, EXT Era 1750€
100bucks more for the ERA? Any day!!!
One question @brianpark, are you running the stock 36T in the 240 hub?
Looks down sees 1000 dollar cranks looks up and nods
I like it a lot.
People like us visiting from places with clay dirt that are used to spending as much time scraping mud off with a chisel post-ride as we did riding are gobsmacked.
> No gearbox