Professional agitators? Revolutionaries? The meteoric growth of Sick Cycles has been interesting to watch from the sidelines. Like many British brands, it was started in a shed, but it was clear from the onset that founders Jordan Childs and Tim Allen (no, not that one) had bigger plans. Innumerable prototypes, radical designs and a notorious social media presence got them noticed quickly and before long they were shifting large numbers of frames. Too many.
Slowly but surely, the forums lit up. Late deliveries, frames being damaged in transit, and radio silence from a normally vocal company. Panic spread among people who had bought a frame. Sick was hit with waves of refund requests and some customers even threatening legal action. Was this to be the end of a company that stuck its head too far above the parapet?
We sat down with Tim and Jordan of Sick to understand what went wrong, how bad the situation got and how they will move forward in the future:
So, your bikes have been on Pinkbike, but you guys as two people have never been featured. Do you want to give a quick potted history of Sick, why you started Sick and to introduce yourselves quickly?
Tim: We decided that we were going to start cross country running because we were too fat and it hurt our shins on hard ground.
Jordan: Maybe a week into doing these cross country runs, we decided it would be easier if we just had bikes. I bought a bunch of bikes off Pinkbike and I said, "You know the problem is that I like different bits of all of these bikes.” I just said, “what we should do...
Tim: ...is find out how hard it would be to make a frame.”
Jordan: My stage of mountain biking was the time it was on the X-Games. There was New World Disorder, Cranked, Earthed. We went into it culturally thinking that everything was still like it was when I stopped riding bikes. Then we discovered that it had changed a lot. It was very technical and it was very performance oriented and it was like the new golf.
Tim: Which I found incredibly off-putting, which is where we thought, "Hang on maybe there's a bit of a niche for that." It wasn't really to be cool. It was purely, "This fits us." It seemed obvious because we were coming from it fresh. We didn't know it was the right thing but it seemed obvious.
| We're a lot less "f*ck you," than we used to be. That's a learned response. That's something that's come over time. |
Jordan: For everyone that was put off by the imagery and vibe, there were enough people that were like, "f*cking hell, this is cool". It gets to the point when we've made our first few bikes and people were like “Well, when are you going to make more of them?” We're like, "I hadn't really thought that far ahead."
I think two things stand out with Sick. The big one is the attitude you mentioned. How did that develop?
Jordan: It really didn't develop, but when we started, we were basically a team of one and a bit. We never sat down to go, "This is going to be the tone of the brand.” It would either be Tim tone or Jordan tone.
Tim: I've never really been comfortable with the word attitude actually as well because I didn't understand at the time. That was a version of me.
Jordan: I think it was as close to the true version as you could be while dealing with a lot of people, dealing with problems, dealing with people coming online calling you a c*nt and disappearing.
Tim: The reason I didn't like it being called an attitude because it wasn't an act. However, I think looking at it now, we're a lot less "f*ck you," than we used to be. That's a learned response. That's something that's come over time. I've had to learn to refine myself. People saw us as disruptors or agitators. Also as uncaring and villainous and ...
Jordan: ...That we were rude to people deliberately. When we tried to make it clear we were only rude to someone if they'd been rude to us or someone else first.
Tim: At that point, we used to fight every battle.
Jordan: We didn't revel in being a dick. It was more that we didn't like people getting away who'd been dickheads to other people or were being dickheads to us. We held them accountable. We weren't thinking about the brand. Sick was just the crew we had around us, and it was supposed to be a fun, honest and real atmosphere. For a start, no one would sit down and take on that much work deliberately. Curating an attitude like that would be so tiring, it would be almost pointless to do it.
I think in tandem with that, was the growth as well. You say you never meant to start a business, but obviously, it's morphed into a business. When did that happen?
Jordan: It's more successful than anything we've done before in terms of with hands off it, it would just keep going. It had its own momentum. I think it became a business when we would do nothing and go to bed and wake up with lots of orders.
How many frames have you sold?
Jordan: In total? Well over 300. In 2017 we sold seven. Then in 2018 it was a lot.
So your business model is to take pre-orders...
Jordan: Not anymore. Was. [As of May 9, 2019, the website still is accepting pre-orders]
… Was to take pre-orders. What made you settle on that?
Tim: Small business is really difficult. There is no government help or funding. It was a case of pre-order to pay for a thing to sell, to put the money back into pre-order, to eventually double our money and accrue stock. Again, that's naivety. I didn't foresee any problems. It was purely, we are not wealthy, therefore the only way we could do it was taking pre-orders and then use that to fund the operation and double down on bikes.
| There are voices out there saying it's a scam and saying we're con artists. I will never justify those. I think that's pitchforks and witch hunts. |
Jordan: I was also worried that if we did sit down and decide to make a pleasing business case, and take a huge loan, that it would cost us a lot more in the long term anyway - while doubling down on risk, doubling down on the pressure to succeed. It seemed like the lightest way of doing that. It also relied heavily that everything was delivered on time, and that people would be prepared to wait.
And if it wasn’t, it would be okay because we had a close relationship with the customer, that there would never be that point where they were really concerned that it was like some kind of pyramid scheme or something like that.
What went wrong and broke that chain?
Jordan: The first break from the chain really was that we took so many orders that we had to have more than one manufacturer. One of them started to fall behind with getting deliveries of parts to complete things. It was as simple as axles, dropouts, bottom brackets and seat collars.
The way that they were held up was frustrating. It was the supplier to the supplier that was feeding the manufacturers was like, "They're literally a week away, don't worry" so we'd be like cool. It's like, "Oh, it's going to be a week more," it's like OK.
Tim: It might be the case that they were promising to us, as we have done, because they thought it would be, and it got held up in its own chain of events. It ran away from there, didn't it?
Jordan: It became that we started saying, "Okay, I don't care what is ready, as long as it's correct, send it." We'd get part delivery, but then the next delivery is still hit by the same set of delays and they were getting worse. They were falling behind, so they would have to catch up with the deliveries they were doing. Then we were adding on more stuff on top of it.
On top of that, the biggest mistake I made was my own passion projects. The titanium frames, the reason that they're on the market for half the price of every other one, was not because there was a shady deal where they were made out of garbage. It was because: One, we brought up someone else's production time that fallen through. And two, that they were loss leaders.
Tim: We wanted to sell them because we wanted to do it and it really did help in our mind with positive marketing.
Jordan: We wanted to make sure we could bring in more frames, and that they would be things that we'd look forward to buying. Challenging things to show people that we had the technical ability to pull it off, that we were making exciting things.
Tim: It's cool to make cool things. We built small amounts of profit into the titanium frames, which was then swallowed up, again, out of naivety. VAT, import fees, postage, handling, packaging, the courier's handling and packaging, all of this stuff. That's not part of the problem. We were learning to build the business and it was something we hadn't considered.
Jordan: Something that I've learned in this industry is that manufacturers with new business always deliver on time or early. Then afterwards, once you get the agreement that you're working together, you will get pushed around when bigger business comes in.
Once again, it's naivety. I'd be spending so much time hassling people to deliver stuff to me, and I'm being hassled at the other end. I ended up with this never-ending daisy chain of paperwork. At that point, something that was only costing you a little amount of money starts to cost you the one thing you don't have, and that's time. You're chasing for maybe 10 frames when there's 50 over here that need your attention.
Tim: All the time while you're doing that, we're not communicating effectively.
Jordan: Then you're getting people asking you the question, and saying they're getting a different answer. You don't want to just turn to the customer and go, "Yeah me too. I didn't know it was going to be like this, it's never been like this before."
Tim: Do you know the money's almost not important but their trust in you is terrifying.
Jordan: It's f*cking depressing.
Tim: We weren't burying our heads in the sand deliberately, we're sitting there going, "what do we say? How do we communicate?” Rather than just going, "Let's just communicate, let's just speak." Everyone just wants to know is my money safe? Is my product safe?
Jordan: You can't see the wood for the trees a lot of the time. I kept saying to myself," but it's my first day, everything is new all of the time". We're doing it now, but this is not what we signed up for. We wanted to make cool bikes and go out riding, see people riding. I love doing live streams, I love doing test rides, I actually like doing events now. It's like Christmas when you get the deliveries and they're actually right, and everything's good and you open up those boxes.
Tim: The biggest thing is that customer photo with some stupid components that look incredible that you would have never thought about. That's f*cking cool.
When did you decide to not do any more preorders?
Jordan: Quite quickly. We've had to choke it like a number of times. The other thing is we're quite careful to realize that our manufacturers are real people too. They're small.
We're taking the burden off them now with bigger manufacturers. We'll probably still put the same amount of business in for different stuff. They have families to support, they’re friends of ours, we're close with them.
We're careful, but we have a responsibility to provide them with work. That's the other thing. People are like, “why don't you get more staff?” Well apart from not haemorrhaging money, we can't just offer someone a job, train them up, and then in six months time say, “We don't need you now”.
Tim: I think it's important to mention as well, the frames that we were having manufacturers build [Tim and Jordan have ordered 150 frames as stock for the future] were ordered and set up and in place way before anything else. As soon as we had enough money to do that, we decided we'd do that because no one likes a pre-order. It's relying on too many things. It was too stressful.
Tim: I don't think we had any other way to do it. There were no capital loans available to us, but right or wrong it was the only way at the time.
Jordan: Would we have taken pre-orders if we knew it would take so long? No. It's hard explaining to people that this makes a lot of work that doesn't need to be done. It makes people unhappy.
Tim: You know what? I think that's the biggest one of it all. Work is one thing if you're working hard and you're getting something out of it and people are happy and coming to you saying "This is great, that's cool," it's rewarding. But when you're turning around and you're apologizing to people, when you're making people feel bad. It's just the worst feeling. It wouldn't be dramatic to say there have been nights when I just couldn't sleep. How am I going to get a handle on this?
Jordan: How are we going to fix it? We're not the sort of people who would walk away from anything.
The backlash to the issues you've had have been particularly vitriolic
Jordan: That's not unusual for us though. Whatever we do, we would always have quite a loud reaction to it.
Do you think people wanted this to happen?
Jordan: Yeah. There are so many people that couldn't wait to see us fail. To see that smug look wiped off my face, it must be a great day for those guys.
Tim: I think there's a clean divide. There are enough people that wanted it to happen, and then there are enough people that are very sad about what happened. It has compounded and become what it is.
Jordan: People that are happy about it are a lot louder than the people that are sad about it. People are on the whole, honestly really supportive.
Tim: London Bike Show was a massive point of anxiety. It was going in and having to put our face up like we have to do this interview.
Jordan: The other thing that's really important is, we wouldn't be in a situation to do well if it wasn't for other, much bigger competitor bike companies literally being like, "This is normal. Just sort it out."
I'm not going to name drop, but some guy from a f*cking huge company drove, we met in Chichester. I sat down and I pulled out my folder of problems. They went, "Is this it? This is the problem that you have? This is business."
Tim: The reason being is because they're all problems with defined solutions.
Jordan: It's not like our problems are continual QA and QC dustbin. You know when you see things come up repeatedly on forums? Oh, they have problems with quality and stuff. I think the only standalone problem we've ever had on a long term basis with quality is frames getting paint damaged in transport.
Tim: Oh, along with the ovalised head tubes because of the packaging.
Jordan: But that was damaged in transit.
Tim: Our packaging wasn't robust enough and they were getting knocked around, ovalised some head tubes, which was then sorted out. That was only literally four or five bikes
Jordan: And the only other problem that we've had is that for some reason, some carbon cranks are so thick that they don't clear the chainstay. When you go look online, we're not the only frame manufacturer that has trouble with extra thick cranks not clearing. You can't really have it all. You can't have a tucked rear wheel and a 73 mil threaded bottom bracket and a three-inch tire.
It's really an overhaul of systems, rather than plugging the leaks and actually being able to stop for a minute to individually reply.
| People are saying that we don't refund anyone, that's absolutely bollocks. We actually did £16,000 worth of refunds in the last six months. |
Tim: There was a lot of firefighting rather than working out what was setting it alight. I think that is a lot of effort, a lot of time we've spent on put it out, put it out, rather than looking at the root cause.
Jordan: In terms of the internet, well people do like to watch something burning.
Tim: Look, I'm guilty of that. I'm no different from anyone else. If I am pissed off with something and I'm not getting treated the way I feel I should be treated, I will be there making some noise about it. I don't think I'm unfair when I do it, but I will definitely do that because it does raise awareness and it does push people into doing something.
Do you think your backlash has been unfair?
Tim: No, no. No, no I don't. I would love to say it's been unfair. I don't think it's been unfair. There may have been individual statements and comments, but those are outliers. I think there's a differentiation between those and those that aren't even a customer and just shouting.
Jordan: We've had customers ask for impossible things. One person, I ended up shutting down and blocking them, which is the wrong thing to do. I was having a continual conversation with them every single day where they said they no longer wanted their frame. I refunded it. He said, "Well I had a bike holiday planned. I've already bought the components, I've already paid for the holiday and I haven't got a frame now. To call it even, send me a frame for free and 800 pounds.” I just said at this point, when you're asking for these things, we're no longer having a conversation.
Tim: The ones that are fair, to list them: Anyone who has complained or who has been put off by lateness; Anyone who's been put off by what they think is going to be a non-delivery; Anyone who's been put off by poor communication. Those three I will validate and justify until the end of time. Every single one of those complaints has been fair.
There are voices out there saying it's a scam and saying we're con artists. No, I will never justify those. I think that's pitchforks and witch hunts and stuff.
Jordan: I had to call someone out on a forum. The guy had claimed that he had bought a titanium frame from us, and that the dimensions were wrong, and that he had broken it. At that point, we hadn't delivered any, so it couldn't possibly have happened. Some people just make up stuff. People have had to wait a long time but you have people like, "Oh, I've waited three years for a frame." Then it's just not true.
People are saying that we don't refund anyone, that's absolutely bollocks. We actually did £16,000 ($21,000 USD) worth of refunds in the last six months.
So, has everyone that has requested a refund got a refund?
Jordan: There are refunds outstanding but when you put something through the resolution centre on Paypal or open a chargeback then we don't have the final say but it actually becomes a longer process because we have to go through the diligence of them. It's sort of out of our hands. If they ask for one they'll get it because they always side with them and we can't manually override that, it just has to go through the process.
So you're not refusing refunds?
Jordan: This is the thing that I want to make clear. There is no way of refusing a refund to a customer. If you paid for it on a credit card, debit card or Paypal, through our site, we're too small a business to refuse a refund. The only time someone would ever get refused a refund is because Paypal or their bank says that they weren't eligible for it, and that would be with proof of delivery from us.
There is no way of with-holding refunds. I ended up going in circles with people because they would be going, "Oh, you're stealing our money". No, you opened a case with Paypal, we respond to that with pretty much a copy and paste thing to say, "Yes, this is delayed, it's a handmade item," and once it's in Paypal's hands it takes as long as it takes. When someone opens a query it takes the money from us straight away and they hold it. We're subject to the financial authority, you can't do that.
How are you working through fixing it and that backlog?
Jordan: The biggest problem is probably that it takes so long once you fix things for them to catch up. We started heavily investing time in January, knowing that we would have to scale up the amount that we're working. The amount of hours that we're doing, how many people, and what tasks people do, which meant that previously where one of us would only have a couple of tasks, they'd have to start early. Zam [Creative Director] was doing stock-taking, fulfillment, logistics, having to learn to do audits and bits to free us up.
Tim: That's been reactive, not proactive. That's come out of the back of it. A lot of the time we were dealing with individual cases as and when they arose because we weren't able to be proactive. You don't know what you don't have.
We didn't have this robust system, all in one place - here are the bikes, here's the QA, here's the dispatch notes, here is the dispatch process, and it's gone. It was in different places, in different people, in different things. Again, because there was no other way of doing at the time. Right or wrong.
Jordan: One of the reasons I had to learn to drive was literally because it takes 10 hours [on the train] to get to Canterbury [where the warehouse is]and back from here. If I leave there at 8am, it's midnight by the time we get back.
Tim: My work has not been kind to me at all. They've taken exceptions to running this business, I haven't been allowed time off. I would like to do things like running down and doing inventory and stuff.
Jordan: I know people have families, I know people have lives too when they work around them, but I already sacrificed two years of my family life to get this to where it is now. I can't continue doing it indefinitely. Otherwise, I'm not going to want to do the job.
Is anyone full time on Sick?
Jordan: I do 30 official hours now but I do a lot more than that. Zam probably works six or seven days a week, handling literally anything that slips through any gap. He will go ahead and just do it. He gave up everything for his job, he moved here.
Tim: He doesn't officially have a full-time job so he probably does now do the longest hours.
How many serious issues do you still have outstanding?
Tim: Define serious
Undelivered bikes.
Tim: How many undelivered? It's one batch. How many people have complained out of those? Or how many is ...
This is the titanium hardtails?
Tim: No, there are two or three of those. How many outstanding? In a batch? There are 30 of them I think
Jordan: As far as people waiting, there's about 14 tickets on my desk in escalation, so it's serious. It's actually quite funny to say 14. It doesn't sound like many at all but it really is. That's double the bikes we sold in the first drop.
Tim: The thing is, even if I know one person's upset and pissed off, I feel shit about that. I'm quite a sensitive soul really when it comes to people's feelings. I really hate upsetting people. This isn't for bumping my ego, it's just I don't want to upset people. I don't want people to be upset because of me.
Jordan: It's also the reverse, it's also the exact opposite of the best part of the job.
When did you see it coming?
Jordan: Last year. We knew that these two to three months would be really hard regardless. Because it'll be the transition from being a small company pretending to be a big company to actually a fairly successful medium company.
We knew that while we were getting ready for that, we would not be as visible, we'd not be as open, we'd not be as communicative, and we would not be able to be as affable and friendly as we would. We knew the business was in the gear changes. It's the bit before you go.
It's incredibly scary going over to Asia and committing to this number of frames. We've sold this number before but those frames could have got us both to put down deposits on houses.
| There is no way on earth that I should be doing any form of customer service |
Tim: I think the most important thing is, we will do right by everyone. We've discussed this. That's the most important thing, is to do right by absolutely everyone.
Jordan: Even people we have already pissed off.
Tim: We won't go into detail on what we're going to do but anyone who has had a problem with us in the past, if they wish to move forward with us in the future, there is something we're going to do later. If you're a previous customer, and as an apology, everyone will be set right. That’s my number one priority.
Jordan: The way that people have been putting it on forums is that our plan was kind of just fizzle out, go bankrupt, take everyone's money and then go scott free.
One, that shows a surprisingly naïve look at how finances work for businesses. You couldn't just do that. Also, I ride bikes. Imagine going to Peaslake on a f*cking Sunday -
"Oh yeah, you're the guy that ripped off all those people." You'd have to give up the thing you love, and I've already given up a lot.
Where are we going? Working with a major bicycle manufacturer to make our stuff and having a lot more stock on shore and ready to sell. I'm hoping that once we do right by everyone and clear everything down, that this very short, but shit period of our business would be something that fades into the background like it has had to for a lot of other bicycle companies.
There has been a laundry list of people that failed in similar ways, and then recovered, and it's just a footnote in the history of the brand, and that's where I'd like it to be. Our only goal now is to continue doing what we're doing in a better version.
Tim: Yeah, cleanly, concisely... I want to hear people happy. I live vicariously through customers, you see. If they're not happy, I'm not happy. I know it's such a bloody cliché as well.
I honestly think if you had said to do this interview towards a month ago, I would have told you to f*ck off. Because I couldn't even concentrate on what was going on in my own life, and that's largely guilt. Guilt isn't exactly a useful emotion with problem-solving. It's, in fact, the complete opposite. It was easy to sit there and wallow and feel bad. Solutions are the most conducive thing here, they will fix things rather than sit there feeling bad.
Jordan: Then following on from that. [The order] is two variants of frames. It's two hardtails, and that's what we're having made in Taiwan. For full suspension bikes, we will continue to use Frank the Welder for a small number of frames and move some production back to the UK.
Tim: And for us it's structure now and lots more staff. People that are better at customer service…
Jordan: …Than we are. There is no way on earth that I should be doing any form of customer service. I just communicate poorly what I mean.
Tim We're personally and emotionally involved in the problems, therefore we react less than constructively at times. There are always people that fall through the net and there are always people that are not happy about what they get. There are always people that are really unhappy and never complaining visibly, but tell their friends, "Do not shop there."
You can't deal with them all. That's okay as long as we are not adding to that. As long as we're not causing it through our own sloppiness or disorganisedness
Jordan: Our attitude to the business is not that we don't care about people and that we don't want to be better and provide good service to people. I don't know where that came from.
Tim: Two years on, we're still not businessmen. 20 years on, we'll still not be businessmen.
Jordan: If we were businessmen, Sick wouldn't be the thing that people like about it. You can't have hot ice. The things that people want from the brand, the things they like about that are caused by who we are.
It’ll be better when we’re able to get on with the things we're good at and have other people that we can employ to do the things that we are diabolically bad at.
Is there anything you want to say to wrap up?
Tim: For what it counts, I'm genuinely sorry if I've upset anyone. Be that if I called someone a dickhead, or I've not been able to meet their expectations. I will do better but that's also not me conceding to the fact that I haven't been trying.
Jordan: My goal is to make it right, no matter how long it takes, even if it's past the point that we could continue doing this. I think that we will stand by our mantra.
Tim: Fixing and doing it right. It is the number one business goal.
Jordan: It doesn't fit into this, but it's something I really want to bring into sharp relief is the things that we haven't sped up was because it was unsafe to do so. Making mountain bikes is an inherently risky thing where you have people's lives at stake. And our laissez-faire attitude to talking to people talking to people and responding to emails does not reflect and has never reflected how seriously we take what we make.
That's why we always set out to make bikes that are really strong, and really trustworthy with a high level of longevity. That's what we set out to do. A lot of the time people are like, "I don't care, I just want my stuff." We could have just gone, “do you know what guys, I told you I need this done by this day. We're a week over now, I don't care how you do it, get it f*cking done. Rush it. I don't care, get it done." We have never done that and we will never do that.
Jordan: We have delivered it late, but we have never not delivered if allowed. Ever.
Tim: A bike delivered late, will eventually be good. But a bad bike will always be a bad bike.
Jordan: When you have your f*cking really whizzy bike there and you go for your first ride, you're like, “this is so f*cking good," everything melts away, but if it's a piece of shit, people will remember that forever.
Well, there you have it. That’s the account the owners of Sick Cycles gave us, in their own words, as to what they claim is and isn't going on. We hope it sheds some light on things for those who have been wondering.
No one needs to read this boring sob story. How did this get published?
Plain and simple: We took money and we didn't deliver.
I seriously doubt people who have been directly involved will value more of the same crap from them. What they might value is a refund, or a frame, or an answer to an email
There's been a lot of drama around this company over the years so I think it's great that it's being addressed.
Only thing I take note of is the guy they've got doing their renders. Dude's legit.
www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=211801
"Been waiting for the frame for almost a year. Ordered one March 2018. Been told when ordering it's 40 day lead time. 2k titanium frame. Been very patient and understanding. Had enough of their bulshit and requested for a refund about a month ago. Still haven't heard from them. Their customer service is as useless. It's a rip off. Pretty pissed off.."
I think anyone that was thinking about buying one but didn't know what was going on is probably having second thoughts.... not really the kind of PR I'm thinking they want.
That's a long time to wait for anything.
singletrackworld.com/2019/05/sick-bicycles-are-things-as-bad-as-they-sound
I was close to ordering one of their original frames, but was decided against based on the answers I got to a few questions (like being given two reach menasurements - one with seat up, and with seat down).
Kudos to PB for giving them an opportunity to clear the air... but, while honest, their responses still smack of arrogance and unpreparedness. These guys are clearly still in way above their heads and don’t seem to be really doing anything except making excuses.
Borrow some money like a real business, and get the job done. Or hire some actual employees to do the job right.
He shows frames being ready 2 months ago which he can’t send as Sick hasn’t paid him for them.
Food for thought for anyone supporting them here.
It's a vanity project.
Beyond that, sure a company or person can f up, and they can say sorry and try to make it right. Doesn’t mean anyone shouldn’t be a bit skeptical if there is a second time for these guys. Especially when they are learning their lessons on customers dime.
Trying to work 2 jobs and run a company at the same time is how you end up in a shit show like Sick are in. They don't have enough time or money to do a proper job of anything. Everything is late, missing, unpaid because they haven't managed it properly.
- Starling, Joe started making bikes in his shed alongside the day job, people started to realise they were good and he got orders, continued to make in shed and do day job / outsourced some production to keep up only after some time did he quit his job and then the premises came later still, I dont know if he has any employees now but its possible not.
- Stanton - Started with a loan from a friend to order bikes from abroad, again no premises, no staff and I believe a full time job which he only quit once business picked up, again no employees to start with.
Superstar Components - I believe started as 'bedroom seller', no employees, no premises to start with, seem to be trading very well now, lots of employees etc.
Works Components - Article on here, shows similar to superstar, started with nothing, no employees to start, still seem small but from what I gather have a few employees now.
Cotic - Similar to the above from what I believe.
Lets put it this way, starting from scratch, with no other income and a £20k loan you wouldnt even open the doors if you wanted a premises and 'operations manager' from day one, you would burn through that £100k pretty fast too e.g. say the directors all want just £10k from Sick a year (not enough to live on) thats £40k, say 2 x 'staff' want £20k and £25k, thats another £45k plus associated costs, thats £85k a year gone already, add up a premises at about £15k and all associated costs and you need to sell a shit load more than 300 frames, thats why it all usually comes slowly, it takes years.
What Sick are doing is pretty typical,start in spare time and go on from there - there are 4 people to spread the workload, they dont need an army of staff and I imagine if they do claw out of this hole they are in if they just simplified the business (e.g. 3 frames bulk ordered from taiwain plus maybe a uk full sus rather than crowd funds, elaborate full sus frames and 10 different models of HT) the actual workload would become quite small and probably manageable by one person and a bit of help, a disorganised business however requires a lot more time and a lot more man-power to sort.
I direct no animosity towards the people at Sick, they are not my 'cup of tea' but thats my proble, not theirs (nobody is forcing me to buy from them / look at their stuff) a failed business knocks on to the families of those involved who are often innocent parties and its really tough starting a small business, been there and done it myself but this mess could have been so easily contained just by stopping pre-orders once the shit hit the fan and building a mail-list of waiting customers and emailing weekly updates to them, every week, even if there is no news, just so the customer knows you are there trying to sort things out for them.
m.alibaba.com/product/60750072359/Custom-titanium-full-suspension-bicycle-frame.html
There is an industry saying that goes something like;
"if you want to make a million in the bike industry, you need to start with two"
In this business the road is littered with brands that didn't make it because passion and creativity aren't enough. It requires start up capital, sound business experience/sense and the ability to manage a problematic supply chain, especially if you are a "design house" that is jobbing out fabrication and finishing. The process is fraught with pitfalls that relate to supply and delivery from frames to the smallest component that can hold up delivery of a finished product. Then there is the whole issue of QC, spoilage, warranty/customer service, etc. (it sounds like they were only shipping frames so some of this doesn't apply, but still).
Given the scale of their orders, I think if they could have kept their manufacturing regional it would have made more sense. Time line would have likely been a bit shorter with lower overhead relative to freight. Also, it seems to me that (probably a big) part of their issue (an assumption based on other information that has come to light) was poor cash flow and not paying their mfg vendors on time which further compounded delays.
From my point of view, these guys are marketing (excluding PR) and product design, they should be working with someone else that has the business chops (project and supply chain management, etc.) to pull the whole thing off.
There are plenty of examples of successful small builders who started small and were careful with their business model and have managed to survive and thrive, but it's still a tough way to make a living.
Small ltd company accounts show almost nothing of use to anyone being realistic.
Also a ltd company in its first year of trading is unlikely to be able to access any form of loan.
My companies accounts are no presntes as you suggest btw.
Absolutely untrue - you can resolve a paypal dispute at any point by granting the refund, the transaction is then cancelled - It is not out of their hands at all, thats entirely the point of the process, why on earth would paypal force both parties into waiting for 20 days.
Its all here:
www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/security/resolve-disputes
The only reason not to just click the refund button is because you are choosing to use the 20 days available to delay the process.
"We're too small a business to refuse a refund." If that were the case there wouldn't be multiple folks waiting on refunds for literally two years that you claim to have processed multiple times.
I am not going down the bitch fest / personal insult route others do and have actually defended Sick in many ways before but feel it’s unfair not to shine some truth on this statement about PayPal - it’s just not true.
Prick Bikes Pyramid scheme garments are good for wiping shit off your tyres, nothing more
It does indeed appear that either;
1. Tim and Jordan are bullshitters.
or
2. Tim and Jordan don’t possess the intelligence to perform basic tasks.
Of course I honked.... se la vie
Son, pre-orders are all you have on your website.
sickbicycle.co/pages/chainbreakers-cc
"Hey Bros! Let's session this 50 meter patch of dirt by roosting the ever living shit out of it of hours on end. Then lets have cheap beer until we're all wasted and drive home drunk."
Culture.
And they seem to wear being bad at their jobs as some kind of badge of honour. f*ck...
Jokes aside, I'm far too much of a hobbit to ride that bike, but it's very nice to look at.
Can I go now?
I'm not sure how I feel about those two personally and have to wonder how many posters here have actually done business with them & got the shitty end of things -vs- just being armchair CEO's who've never run or worked at a small international business started in a shed for pete sakes...
The article was painful to read, the message appeared to me to be two guys that got smacked with a tsunami of attention and made the mistake of trying to be all things to all people (with an attitude) without understanding logistics and human nature (people HATE to wait for anyting these days ~ givememyf*ckingburgeralreadyitsbeentwominutes)
Anyway, my unsolicited two cents in support of your epic pot stirring powers ~ Wakiwon the force is strong in you....
Yes, there will be armchair CEOs and people here just to shovel and throw shit about, however, removing them from the equation still leaves a pile of shit on the floor, of JC and TA's own creation, and it is their job to clean it all up so as not to allow any of it to be thrown about.
I have had dealings close to a decade ago now with ordering frames with Cotic, Stanton (and would have had with BTR if I had had the money at the time), who all started out with an idea for a bike frame the same as JC and TA.
Others have managed the situation, and well, when inevitable issues arose. In my case, Cy at Cotic had to reject a delivery of tubes on QC issues which put back many people's orders and in my case, he kept me informed at all times, and had the factory in Taiwan personally finish off the frame and had that one frame sent to me direct to Japan to fulfil my order ASAP. They were in constant contact and, if they made a promise, they kept it. That is what generates and deserves respect in customers.
Compare that to JC and TA at Sick and it becomes very apparent, very quickly that they have failed to manage the situation, and dismally at that. Read that Singletrack article and it all sinks in.
Cy at Cotic, Dan at Stanton and Tam and Burf at BTR all managed to create killer product and simultaneously deal professionally with customers at all stages of their start up process. In the case of Dan Stanton and Cy Turner, they stumped up the money to make the frames; gambling their own money. Tam and Burf only took orders for what they could make personally from their shed and have grown slowly and steadily; customers at BTR can see their tubes becoming frames on FB. It is all open and transparent.
I for one have concluded from the Sick debacle that I do not trust JC and TA's management ability so, therefore would not trust them with my money. I hope they turn it around, however, I don't see that yet in their answers here; the experiences of the author on Singletrack cement those feelings further.
Just for the record, I have run a business here in Japan for 18 years. We had one complaint 15 years ago, which we fully accepted, and changed our business as a result. We have never had a single complaint since. With integrity, which people like Dan, Cy, Tam and Burf have in spades, it can be done, and done well.
JC and TA don't deserve any more slack, they deserve a kick up their whining arse to sort their mess of a business out;
And to do that, you have to stop adding more bullshit to the ' shit for throwin' ' pile. I just checked and their website says on an Shrike frame "Please note, this is a preorder, we currently do not have a firm date for delivery. Estimated completion date of manufacture is 29th May 2019."
They stopped taking preorders did they? Manufacture date of two weeks?
If you want people to stop throwing shit about, you have to stop bullshiting to start with.
RANT OVER
What I find ironic and fascinating though, is that in many ways, they are the embodiment of the "keep it real MTB company". Sick is what many, MANY people say they want, when they criticize big companies. A little business producing no fks given bikes, simple constructions, going against the tide of overengineered, overpriced tech bullshit. Then, they would never get where they are if cool geometry wasn't on the rise. Finally they are rather big mouth, passionate, outgoing as hell and very accessible.
If you can't build TRUST, you're out. No matter what you sell.
You find them honest, OK. A question then. How would you describe the gap between their claim that they are not taking pre-orders anymore with the demonstrable fact that their website is taking pre-orders?
Honest? Sorry Waki; you talk sense here far more often than people give you credit for, however we will have to agree to disagree here.
I agree with you totally about the tendency of the industry to sex-up everything and everything to ejaculatory gnarly shreddage (Transition BIkes being the undisputed champions of that for over a decade) however whether you are a huge conglomerate or a boutique hand made brand, you have to work to build trust and these two boys have failed miserably in that department.
Honesty builds trust. These gents haven't built any trust.
Be my guest and do the maths.
I selfishly reserve my judgment because I am not going to go around with the weight of accusations on people who do not influence life of mine or any of my farthest associates. Can I muster enough empathy for folks who had problems with them? Not any more than for any person in the world who has problems with getting something they paid for. I am not going to do a research, trying to get to the bottom of things. Definitely not in an recreational manner. I am not going to buy any frame from them and highly possibly from anyone making a similar product, it is just not my thing, no matter how much I may like to see such things existing. As a product.
@orientdave I do need to explain what I wrote. What I meant was, tgat tgere are plenty of folks whining on overpricing, overcomplication and soullessness. One cannot carelessly throw accusations demanding the perfect world, because Here you have an example of the opposite of Spec or Trek, so to sum u: people be careful with what they wish for.
Hope the guys at Sick will read it and reconsider their situation, ... can't believe they are still taking orders.
And honestly nobody knows who is really making their frames and how much profit these people is making.
There are loads of reasons why businesses fail, and 98% it's going to be something the owner did and F'ed up or it was just a bad idea, etc. So, live and learn, and maybe not be self employed. But I don't feel bad for these guys at all since their "business failed"....they obviously just shouldn't be in business, and why anyone would buy a bike from people that don't even ride bikes is incomprehensible!
It's fine to not be business people. Just don't run a business. Problem solved.
Something I don't like about the long/low/slackers is they never explain how they can be equally effective in tight trails, and yet they claim they're just as good.
I've never read such a whiny pile of bullsh!t words before.
That would be like me teaching yoga, even though I have zero interest in yoga but a girlfriend of mine was into it, so....I can probably teach it....and if I walk around saying "namaste" a lot that must mean I know what I'm doing.
I'd never want to buy a bike from people that don't have a deep passion for bikes....just like surfboards...a shaper knows what a different curve or tail will do and how to make a board act a certain way because he's spent years in the water.
I guess in the Insta world people buy into image
I didn't read all the way but I'm guessing they're just clueless dudes that found it a big joke with no concern of creating an actual business.
I am self employed creating one-of pieces for customers and I've been in the position of being backed up, behind schedule, etc. But...I've always communicated upfront and did everything in my power to make sure my paying customer got what they wanted and more! Hence, I have a solid reputation, customers have been returning for years, and I have a job that lets me ride my bike when I want!! It really isn't all that difficult to have a decent business ethic, in fact, with how many flakey people exist, if you have ten percent more ethic then you'll already be winning!
Lack of communication with James (pb) made me look him up and when checked his fb profile saw a picture with no other then sick gang posing and him beside them. At that moment I felt that I was messed around by sick and it was just another way of gaining time.
Lack of responses to emails sent to James in trying to get some info on the process became even more stressful than dealing with sick. It is like you reach out to a drowning person and the let go.. ah, well...
After reading Hannah's piece on stw wish I would have helped her as she seems to have put a lot of constructive work in this.
I ordered xxl titanium gnarcissist luxe on 23 March 2018. Have been told that at the time there were only 3 of them "in the wild". I recently found out that there are 20+. Someone has received no23 in February 2019. This got me fuming!
So,.. I'm wondering where the f***k that frame is.. They definitely been getting or got delivery of those frames. As my was ordered this long ago it was definitely in that shipment. I've been told it should be with me any day now. This was all more than half a year ago. I saw a picture of the frame that looked exactly like one I ordered at the time it was supposed to be delivered but was told it was not mine.
I believe I'm the longest standing outstanding customer (prove me wrong) that has no frame, no refund, no communication. They have paid 16k on refunds..yet I haven't received one when requested..
.. And they say it's not a scam. You've scammed me.
Sick: hold my beer you c*nts!
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/unhappy-sick-bicycles-customers-beware
www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=211801
"...That we were rude to people deliberately. When we tried to make it clear we were only rude to someone if they'd been rude to us or someone else first."
Sorry Bros. People are paying you money. You can't be rude to your customers no matter how much of an a*shole they are to you. Customer is not always right. But that also doesn't mean you can be dick to them. I know you have your Bro image to maintain and all, but customer service ALWAYS comes first. Especially a 'company' as small as this one.
Stick to selling stickers and shirts.
I gave a few hundred, about 7 or 8
And they yelled to the punter, "Yo bro see ya later"
I thought of my new bike
But it's not anywhere
I just paid good money for a load of hot air.
How did this make it to PB’s front page? How did it not get scrapped from minute one of the interview?
"Don't believe 100% of everything you have read."
Jake,
Ignoring the legality of the refund for a second.
Your bike is in a box, done and finished, and is on the process of shipping.
If I give you an exact date and it misses it by a day or so then we will have ‘built up hopes and dreams again’
The delay was in the manufacturing process of the bike. Buts that’s now done, and finished. I would wager it will be with you before the one you have ordered. We originally quoted 30 days as that’s what we were told it would be.
We don’t manufacture bikes ourselves. So we are at the mercy of our suppliers.
You only need to check our IG to see that customers are taking delivery of frames in the same batch as yours, we just need to process all the frames.
You are of course entitled to persue a refund through PayPal: they will open a case for you and we will have X amount of days to respond with our side of the story. But your goods will be shipping very, very soon and probably be with you long before PayPal have resolved it
I would be as frustrated as you, absolutely. But I have to stand by the decision to not refund a custom built, frame we have supplied and paid our suppliers for, purely based on it ending so close to delivery.
Kind regards
James
Customer Service
Sick! Bicycle Co
Now some companies managed to get back in fashion (Evil) it took some time and hard work.
But the fourth one stayed up. And that’s what you’re going to get son, the strongest bike in all of Bellingham.
Hype building != Frame building
They're still lying too - talking about not ding pre-orders any more, while their site right now offers two frames on preorder and one being crowdfunded.
"Please note, this is a preorder, we currently do not have a firm date for delivery. Estimated completion date of manufacture is 29th May 2019."
That was pretty much my point. All the talent in the world doesn't matter if you don't have business sense.
If a business "fails" it's almost always because someone F'ed up. If there is a product that people want...and...the business owners have a solid work ethic then that business will grow. If it falls on it's face, like apparently this one did, then...bye bye.
There are plenty of true bike builders out there that want to make sure you're happy, and they know how to build a bike! I'm sure skull stickers can be found to put on those frames too
Seems Sick were endlessly stalling and in the end failed to answer any questions, strangely this article then pops up.
Is this the pinkbike model of journalism of the future?
So they took pre-orders because they didn't want the risk and "pressure to succeed" that a business loan would have brought, but they're not paying their own suppliers who have already made the bikes? *deep breath* Diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiicks.
Cool, a new bike brand vying for your dollars. Nothing in this "interview" explains their credentials or legacy. It's hard for me to not look at this thru the lens of BMX. Any company worth a shit has a story or an owner with a definable history.
Some are beyond legendary, looking at you J.Rich.
It's something sorely lacking in "watch me skid down this hill" mtb
Translation: We blocked anyone with unfulfilled orders and deleted unfavourable comments.
I can't believe these cowboys are still hiding behind this facade. I doubt they got into this with dishonourable intentions, but their actions are nothing short of fraud.
Even today, posting a vague Instagram post about things changing (with comments disabled). How about be honest with people who have trusted you with their cash? If you can't fulfill orders, be honest and refund what you can, don't try and con more people into your black hole of deceit.
If you have investment, you will know exactly when you're in a position to fulfill orders. There is no in-between.
www.sciencealert.com/exotic-form-of-water-ice-is-half-as-hot-as-the-sun-and-it-s-just-been-created-here-on-earth
"You heat up the ice cubes!"
Sure sounds exactly like MTB to me!
Nice.
You deserve all the vitriol being directed your way from dissatisfied customers. Please fade away.
...But you have to buy them sight-unseen and you might not get the product for months. Maybe it's that sense of danger that they should be marketing?
Jordan: Not anymore. Was. [As of May 9, 2019, the website still is accepting pre-orders]
Says it all haha
www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Custom-titanium-full-suspension-bicycle-frame_60750072359.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.11.318329cdZdgz17
Or Sick may have just bought an off the peg frame, branded it and sold it on...
I read all the above as two guys who were woefully out of their depth from the start, who learned their lesson the hard way. They've had others build their frames for them, and appear to be using a Chinese frame that one purchaser has had fold above the shock mount in another post... It doesn't instill confidence. Not researching the various costs involved in the process of manufacturing seems pretty short sighted too.
I genuinely hope they sort it out though, so that they can honour their promises to their customers.
Yes you can. RSD does it with their Middlechild model.
Same to be said with their comment re thick carbon cranks. They are clueless in bike design (stresses, geometry past a head angle etc), and have little knowledge of components, borne out in their carbon crank statement.
Go and listen to the Vital MTB podcast with him
I have a tiny business(40 hours a week) and was employed by a small business(at least 40 hours a week) at the same time... Man up feller's and get your shit together.. I also have a young family that I spend time with... Yes counting on other people sucks but you build a time line around your ordering and tell people about it. That's just part of manufacturing.. Also, don't say you are making the frames yourself when you clearly aren't.
I really did want you to shake up the industry and prosper, I still do. You had the same thoughts about things as me.. Stupid standards etc.
I reckon you could have made it if you didn't try a different frame design every 2 weeks without releasing the one from a month ago.
You've got a lot of work ahead of you if you are going to keep going. Drop the attitude that come from the tattoo world for a start.
When they started, I was a massive fan but as time has gone on... I just can't trust them.
I had the pleasures of meeting them when they just started at a local race and them seemed like sound lads.
Fast forward a year or so and, my friends and I meet Jordan at another park and got chatting. Again seemed like a sound lad. One of my mates purchased their anniversary Gen 1 Gnar frames. He had an idea to get this frame in custom colours and Sick obliged.
Have we seen said frame? Yes, in pictures...
Why hasn't he received the frame? Oh, there's a story. One, I'd like to hear from Sick themselves... Maybe we'll finally find out why at the Malverns Festival later this year...
I really do for sorry for my friend as he has waited over a year for said frame and, he like many others have been fed the same excuses all the time, with no change in sight.
Sick, I hope you sort your shit out rather than put up a post on instagram, on how you're changing or articles such as the one above.
Also liked the fact, you disabled comments for you last post on the gram, nice touch!
They painting is not the best as you might imagine.
Contact me if your friend is interested. I am sure we can negotiate a good price for win-win, its a cool frame
you lie lying
you lie lying
you lie lying
GYPSYS....5-6 month waiting shipping my frame plus 2 month waiting dvo shock funny category your sick website 1 month ready the frame many many email James is good the size ?"yess is good fit " f*ck fit..small broke my torso pain my leeg. me sent message me need back my money no money back another hardtrail frame,,, HA HA HA shipping back mí frame 1450 gp vith shock and shipping me hardtrail frame is lower price ha ha ha UNCORECT UNCORECT you lie lying
Sicks reply.
Sick can't refuse a refund? All the customer has to do is open a dispute? I've had refunds off sellers before. You open a dispute when the seller ignores you for long enough and if the seller is stretches out the it's on its way, it's shipping now until over your refund period. Sick keeps the money it seems.
www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Custom-titanium-full-suspension-bicycle-frame_60750072359.html
I'd have more fun in the woods on any given steep and short piece of two wheeled crap than I would waiting for a bike to arrive.
By all accounts didn’t like it when there F-you attitude came back and bit them in the ass!
Lies are never a good thing to tell your customers.
What’s amusing... is people thought they were cool and bought into the hype, you only had to read between the lines to realise. How unprofessional these guys are.
Sorry to be so derogatory... BUT they simply ripped people off; they should have had the intelligence to stop taking orders, when things were getting out of hand ... instead they continue through sheer arrogance! Clearly!
I do hope they actually come to there senses, and reimburse, those they have been dishonest with.
However considering they owe there suppliers money; I doubt it will happen.
My god! even Balldrick had a plan!!!!
But for those who have fallen victim; to there skullduggery. Please read ... as it’s clear it’s gone beyond incompetence, and could well be fraudulent!
In common law jurisdictions, as a criminal offence, fraud takes many different forms, some general (e.g., theft by false pretense) and some specific to particular categories of victims or misconduct (e.g., bank fraud, insurance fraud, forgery). The elements of fraud as a crime similarly vary. The requisite elements of perhaps the most general form of criminal fraud, theft by false pretense, are the intentional deception of a victim by false representation or pretense with the intent of persuading the victim to part with property and with the victim parting with property in reliance on the representation or pretense and with the perpetrator intending to keep the property from the victim.[4]
m.facebook.com/?_rdr#!/story.php?story_fbid=2155699947800272&id=134704909899796&anchor_composer=false
no idea what running a business is about...
www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=213188&pagenum=1#commentid6730182
Now you don't have anymore people calling you a c*nt and disappearing, now they do and stay...
can't believe you still take preorders and that people are waiting for their money.
I saw a story about a guy who took you to Court (and won of course).
You wanted to make people live and experience the good MTB vibe and be all cool, and instead just f@cked up to make money. You could have put a pre-oder limit (like 50 frames per time)...instead you showed that you were there only for the $$$£££
sad people make sad stories
The Taiwan production model was clear from the start, and I was kept up to date with some delivery issues
The frame is lovely, geometry is perfect for me and quality very good
Maybe I’m one of the lucky ones, hope the other customers get sorted soon
Have a good product, good business ethics and you'll survive and prosper. I've had clients come to me after someone closer to their location flaked out, so they pay me more and for shipping because I take care of my customer. I'm happy when incompetent people go out of business...they can create bad reputations for an industry, take work that could've been mine(until they F up and I get hired anyway). Not everyone that goes into business for themself should. It's a lot of work and these guys seem like it was more of a "why not?" scenario...and they don't even ride bikes!!!
Also, the Sick bike guys sound like a bunch of a*sholes. Too many good bikes and good companies to bother with worrying if your bike will ever show up and what happens if you need a spare part or break something?
I want a Company headed by a guy/ gal with a mean sweater vest game. He doesn't have to be a rad punk guitarist or anything; but a professional businessman that understands that you have the RAD BRO test the bikes, then you have engineers, technicians, and other professionals do everything else that is related to a bike. Which provides a consistent product that is the basis for repeat business so that they can make money.
More to the point, why would this legend get into bed with these two shysters? A man of his stature should surely do his diligence and note that these two aren't exactly a pleasant proposition.
This reads well a few months on doesn't it!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OuiuolN1r4
The 'DFA'
m.alibaba.com/product/60750072359/Custom-titanium-full-suspension-bicycle-frame.html
Are these bikes manafactured in China? If so you need some one to visit the factory almost on a daily basis. To ensure quality control.
Sick bikes though.
Pre order obviously.
But many thanks for clarifying your position.
Have an up vote on me.
@handynzl: Only because you're upside down.If you turn it the right way up it's ironnie.
We're definitely ramping up. I'd say peak season isn't for another month or so though. Still kind of early season here. Very delicious but slightly tart.
I'm so very jealous of your access to great strawberries out in California, but yes they have been a little tart so I can't wait for the true peak season.
Starting a business is hard, and having worked in customer service, I am fully aware that some time things go very smoothly, and some times they don't. Consumer's are just straight up animals these days and expect everything to be perfect and expect their order to be at their doorstep the second they place the order. At least Sick was man enough to come out and do an interview about some of their production issues, whether you think it was shit or not. It sounds like some of the issues people are having with Sick are quite extreme, but it doesn't mean they are a shit company. Every company has their issues and faults, and if you blow up like these guys did, I'm certain your business would have similar issues.