How does it compare? And what about that shifting? Compare to what, exactly? There aren't exactly a load of gearbox-equipped bikes out there for me to say that the Taniwha is better or worse than, but I bet you're more interested in how the Zerode fares against a top of the line all-mountain sled with a derailleur, anyway. You probably want to know if this bike is the 'The One' that will deliver us from the oppression of our derailleur-based society, and if the Zerode makes derailleurs seem like the antiquated joke that they sure look like.
Well, it's not, and it doesn't.
The Slash is a top-end 29'' wheeled enduro race bike, while the Slayer is one of the best pedaling enduro bikes on the market. Both are much more well-rounded than the Taniwha, even if the latter feels more solid and stable when it's extremely rough and fast.
There's a lot to love about the Taniwha, especially how dump truck-solid and stable the bike feels when things are hectic. And it tracks the ground better than some of us keep track of our first love that long ago moved on, got married, and looks happier with that dude who owns a jet ski and lifted Dodge than she ever did with you. But you know that it's just the idea of her that you're so infatuated with and that there are damn good reasons why she's with that Steve idiot instead of your non-jet ski owning ass.
I feel the same way about the Taniwha - like a lot of us, I love the idea of a gearbox bike, but things aren't so rosy in the real world.
Gearbox devotees like to talk about how weight isn't everything, and that a gearbox bike hides its heft well because it's centralized between your feet. There may be something to that - the Taniwha's rear suspension is quite the thing, after all - but there's no hiding the fact that this $9,500 USD bike weighs 34lb 4oz without pedals. If you spent nearly ten grand on a Slash, Slayer, Enduro or whatever else, they'd likely weigh five or six pounds less, and probably feel like they weigh ten pounds less on the trail. I'm sorry, but it does matter, and the Taniwha comes across as sluggish and uninspiring in many scenarios compared to any high-end enduro bike.
I want a machine that lights a fire under my ass to sprint for a gap, or to make the most out of all the natural poppers and lips... the Taniwha doesn't do this as other bikes do, and I often had less fun riding it because of this fact.
There's a lot to like about the Pinion 'box, but having to essentially back off to zero watts so you can shift to an easier gear isn't one of them. You also need to ease off the power to get into a harder gear, although not by nearly as much.
''But you can shift whenever you want, Levy,'' you say. Well, no, not even close. Sure, you can grab a gear while coasting or back-pedaling or while the wheels are off the bike and you have a bubble tea in one hand and the twister in the other, but you can't shift to an easier gear if there's even a hint of load on the drivetrain. And when does one often want to shift into an easier gear? While pedaling up a hill, of course. ''You can't shift under heavy load while using a derailleur, either,'' you say. Bullocks. I do it all the time and have no issues other than causing some bad sounds, but you also only need to back off a touch to nail a shift up to an easier gear under load. With the Pinion gearbox, you essentially need to drop down to zero watts to make it happen.
Mountain biking can be a scrappy, unpredictable sport, and having to shift at inopportune times is part of the game... unless all your ascents are gravel roads, that is. Mine aren't.
Pinion has taken heat for only offering their gearbox with a twist shifter, but I got used to it quickly. Would I prefer a trigger shifter? Of course, but this isn't a deal breaker for me.
You can adapt to get the most out of the Pinion C.Line gearbox, and I found myself using two different approaches to shifting that helped matters. When faced with the need to grab an easier gear on a tricky singletrack climb, I'd preload the twist shifter ever so slightly - remember, the indexing is in the 'box rather the twister, so it just feels kinda like the changer is up against a hard stop when you do this. Then, when the time was right and I was able to ease up on the pedals without dabbing or coming to a complete stop, the gearbox would shift into a lower gear, at which point you can begin to put the power down again. All of that can happen in only a few feet of distance on the trail when you get it down pat, and it begins to feel like far less of an inconvenience that it sounds like. Still, I can shift pretty much whenever the hell I want with a derailleur as long as my cranks are spinning around. Also, the throw of the twist shifter feels excessive when you want to grab more than one or two gears at a time; tighter spacing and more pronounced indexing (which happens in the gearbox) would be a nice change.
The second approach is, er, less delicate, and involves simply gassing it so you have some momentum and the chance to lift off so you can make the shift happen. Or you can man up and not look for that lower gear, but at well over 34lb with pedals and angles that emphasize going the opposite direction, I bet you're gonna want it.
I guess the question that needs to be asked is just how much of an emphasis a potential Taniwha owner is going to put on climbing, or just shifting under load, period. At the risk of riding headlong down Stereotype Street, I don't think it's out of line to assume that a guy on a 160mm-travel all-mountain bike that weighs 34 pounds and change might not be nearly as fussed as I am about how and when to shift the Pinion gearbox, and there's nothing wrong with that thinking, either.
If that sounds like you, then I think you'll see more upside than downside to the Zerode's derailleur-free drivetrain. After all, the promise of 10,000 miles before the Pinion gearbox even needs a five-minute oil change is pretty appealing. As for me, I can't remember the last time I killed a derailleur or even bent a hanger, so this whole thing is a real hard sell, especially given the shifting idiosyncrasy. I don't think I'm alone, either... We ran a
Pinkbike Poll back in 2016 questioning the reliability of derailleurs, and over 6,500 of the 10,000 replies stated that it had either been more than two years since they broke a derailleur, they couldn't even remember the last time they broke one, or that they've never even had an issue. And over 9,000 readers also said that they rarely have troubles at all, or that they're at least moderately happy with their current drivetrain.
Here's another way to look at it: if this were a test bike that had a derailleur-based drivetrain that shifted like the Pinion gearbox, I wouldn't be a happy camper. So why is it acceptable in a more expensive, heavier package? Harsh, maybe, but it's the truth. Neil Flock, owner of Cycle Monkey, did make a counterpoint to that thought: ''
If a person who only ever drove an automatic car tried to drive a manual, would they be likely to leave with an impression that a manual transmission doesn’t really work?''
Touché, Neil. He also pointed out some pretty reasonable sounding benefits to running a gearbox in his retort: ''A gearbox doesn’t shift exactly like a clean, well-adjusted derailleur. It shifts differently, which takes some adaptation, but once you have learned the muscle memory for shifting a gearbox, you unlock a myriad of benefits. These include almost no routine drivetrain maintenance, shifting never comes out of adjustment, fewer things to damage in a crash, the ability to shift where a derailleur cannot: coasting through corners or across rough terrain, the ability to shift through large groups of gears nearly instantly when the trail changes direction rapidly - THE fastest multi-gear shifting on the market, and class-leading suspension performance due to reduction of unsprung mass,'' he explained to me in an e-mail.
His comparison of automatic and manual transmissions does hold some water, too, as neither are designed to work or feel the same, and many of us are just fine with that: ''
It’s one thing to be disappointed when a derailleur bike doesn’t act like a derailleur bike. This bike isn’t intended to act like a derailleur bike and makes huge gains because it doesn’t!''
Flock brings up an excellent question: is the shifting worse than with a derailleur, or is it just different? Zerode's own Rob Metz and Ali Quinn both argue that the bike is about much more than simply how it shifts, and they stress that they're not trying to compete against the traditional drivetrain, either.
''We didn't set out to make the derailleur die. We just wanted to build the perfect bike for the kind of riding we love; something confidence inspiring that encourages you to get off the brakes, and that is unashamedly most at home on fast, rough, and steep trails, Metz says. And they've certainly accomplished that goal, regardless of how the bike shifts. Metz's continues:
'' A bike with absolute reliability that won't let you down mid-race stage or four hours into a backcountry epic. In this setting, the gearbox is about a whole lot more than just shifting. It's the suspension game-changer of unsprung mass; it's low center of gravity corner railing and its 10,000 miles between services.'' Whether you think the Pinion 'box shifts worse or just differently compared to a normal drivetrain will come down to what you expect from your bike.
Rob also argue that how the bike shifts is less important than how it performs as a whole, and that performance is only possible through the use of a gearbox. ''
It's not surprising that the gearbox conversation always circles back to shifting; after all, that's its basic function. It's different, and it's almost always the first thing people notice about the bike,'' a point that he and I clearly agree on.
''
Some love it immediately, and some take a while to get accustomed to it. But after a while, muscle memory takes over, shifting fades into the background, and the true benefits of the gearbox shine through. At the end of the day, no one high fives each other about the perfect shift, but that perfect roosted corner, that drop you've always been nervous about hitting or just waiting an extra ten seconds at the bottom of a hill for your mates is what brings home the real smiles.''
Mike, wanna talk about it?
You have been riding cross country 29er bikes for too long.
No, haven’t seen too many 30ft camp trailers. For many people VW Caravelle/ California is more than enough (actually there’s plenty of those quasi mini vans like VW Sharan or Picasso) , but there are many full on camper vans on the roads in the summer. They are no longer than 25ft. Trailers are rare. I think the difference between Europe and US comes down to two factors: in US you have much bigger travel distances and No.2 you have much more personal storage space to keep such behemoth. Simply put: you have more space.
For instance, if tou got to my garage under a block of flats, you will quickly see how disproportionally big is a “small” pick up like Hilux or Navara. My V70 is a damn big kombi, one of bigger cars on the roads here, but it looks tiny next to Hilux.
agreed 100%
15kg for a bike is pretty reasonable imo
The new kona process is a expensive porker also. Better than this? And as much fun as the old one?
Was not going to read all this if they have not got weight down to match standard drive, as it can be done!
600% RANGE - SICK
UNSPRUNG MASS (making the suspension track better) - RAD
NOT BREAKING DERAILLERS $$$ - DOPE
grip shift- SUCKS but we will let that slide (for NOW)
0.01% CHANCE TO DROP A CHAIN - GNARLY
The list goes on.......
lets just kill the derailleur NOW!
If you run a 160 bike, weigh around standard 170lbs and don't run at least 1,5ply tyres then I don't know how the hell you don't get flats, how do you hit berms at speed and ride through rock gardens without squirmy tyres robbing you off confidence to push the bike. And Enduro/DH tyres alone, easily push your bike into 33-34lbs zone. That is a reasonable weight. A 30lbs for a 160 Enduro bike IS NOT a reasonable weight. Anyhoo, we got a reasonable 32-33 lbs bike and we add a gearbox to it. That makes us end up at 35lbs which is REASONABLE for a gearbox equipped Enduro bike.
Bejesus... weight weenies on Pinkbike... lift some iron and do sprints for fks sake, it's 2018.
@mikelevy: could you comment on drag?
I respect a truck that is made to do a job. I am lucky to be about to borrow a 2500 Chevy when I need it.
But most of the time they are wasted space. My minivan had a3.5 v6 and manages to do just about everything I could ask. Plywood sits flat when the seats are out. It pulled a uhaul trailer full of crap from Utah to NY through Colorado. I can throw a couple bikes in the back or put them on the hitch rack.
When all is said and done I can't justify a truck. And neither can 80% of truck owners. They just want one cuz they are cool.
But if I could I'd get a raptor.
Throw a water bottle on your lightweight 'enduro bike' and boom, 2lbs added. No one seems to complain there. Where and what it does matters most with weight as does stiffness, fit, and climbing position. My guess is that between the gearbox, WTB tires (which in my experience roll quite slow) and a slacker STA affected the climbing more than the actual weight itself.
People forget how much older Europe is.
But I must tell you the nastiest camper porn I have seen... hmm... move on... was in Val Di Sole. A family showed up in a camper with 2 carbon Bronsons on the back of it, and they were towing a trailer with Lotus Elise on it. That was a one of the biggest "get the fk out of here you lucky mdr fkr" moments in my life.
PS we don't have rock gardens in the SE (UK), only mud and roots. Hence light tyres work most of the time.
PSS @rockin-itis - one more towards 500...
A lot of people have larger trucks than necessary because that was your only real option for a truck until recently. The big 3 will all have diesel half tons available in the next year, and the new Colorado diesel will hopefully prove popular enough for Toyota to sort out getting a diesel Taco in the states.
For a while i drove one of these monsters courtesy of my Company. Besides the always paying for two cars when i tried parking downtown i got really sick and tired of getting my shit stolen of the bed. Maybe that's just LA/OC...
@mountainyj i have a couple of riding buddies who where more than happy to hide their bikes inside my hatchback while the Sheriffs where looking for us because we rode something we were not supposed to... Our record so far Stands at 5 Bikes in Focus. I guess there is advantages in everything...
Funny thing is I've never seen so many American cars in Europe as in Stockholm, the kind you have to import.
Cummins also offers a new 2.8L crate motor. Swaps have been popular with that. Still dropping $10k for it though.
Ford had a ranger diesel back in the 90s, wouldn’t be surprised to see it return in a couple years. Ford keeps teasing a new ranger.
Do way too many people drive trucks in the US that don't need it? Absolutely. I've seen way too many clean and pretty trucks without a spot of dirt on them, extended cab extended everything, commuting and driving their kids to school/soccer practice etc. That said, no van is going to have the same level of offroad capabilities that a truck has unless you're talking triple the price. You're not getting up some of our backcountry mountain roads without 4x4 and at least 'decent' clearance without seriously risking damage to the underside of your vehicle.
And sure, you can still fit 5+ people with 5+ bikes in a van but I'll take the ability to hose down a muddy or dirty truck bed everytime in addition being able to haul whatever I need to (dirt, mulch, water, tools, everything I own, farm equipment, etc.). For the record I drive a 2WD hatchback and envy everyone with 4x4, clearance, and the ability to just throw the bike in the car.
If you own farm equipment i assume you are a framer in which case a truck makes total sense.
For most people living in cities i don't think it does. Personally i will never see the advantage of an open loading bed on a massive car that consumes exorbitant amounts of gas.
You can also hose down the back of a Van but still my shit is less likely to get stolen or just fly away at freeway speeds.
You can sleep inside.
You don't need to clean snow of the bed in winter time.
You can keep my bags inside in the dry even if i bring 4 other people along for the drive when its raining.
Most people don't need off road capabilities, most trucks are sold in rear wheel drive with which to my limited experience it is already a challenge to drive straight on a wet or slightly snowy road as there is no weight on the back wheels.
Anyway this is another topic where you will never find common grounds. Two different schools of thought.
US like trucks and the rest of the world uses vans but how the hell did we get her form a gearbox bike?
I6 Duramax is a neat idea for the '19 1500 BowTie twins. Wonder how the front end suspension components will hold out with the added heft of a diesel? Remains to be seen how much one of them will cost compared to a 3500. Difficult to sell diesel in NA since drivers here tend to keep vehicles for the duration of a lease/finance cycle so the price increase isn't justified over the ownership period. In Central America all the Japanese pickups and SUVs we have in NA are available in diesel down there.
Have a sled on the way for next winter so unsure if I'm going to add a trailer to my SUV or go to a Fullsize (or "Full-Ton" like the GF calls them) and a sled deck?
@gonecostal: get a truck...life’s easier. We’re also not allowed to tow trailers up the pass here in the winter. So if we want to sled certain areas, truck is the only option. Can always get a camper shell for the summer and basically have an suv anyhow
www.pinkbike.com/u/DoubleCrownAddict/blog/derailleur-failure-and-why-its-time-to-evolve-beyond-them.html
Seems like that's the only reason someone would buy a bike that costs over $9k bike and weighs over 34lbs
Getting stuck on a surprise pinch climb and not being able to shift is pretty annoying. Can’t run my brake lever setup the way I wanted with the shifter as the lever hit the shifter.
The bike that Rob Metz actually rides looks a lot more fun with a real high pivot.
The chain interfering with the suspension is the same with a gearbox, with the same suspension design
I totally agree on a revised HammerSchmidt for downhill being a great idea, could be retrofitted too
Other gearbox designs (like effigear) allow you to have a rearward axle path and still have a concentric main pivot, giving 0 chain growth and therefore 0 effect (other than the weight of the chain/belt) on the rear suspension:
images.singletracks.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/DSC06306.jpg
The cranks go backwards on most bikes as you push down on them, no?
I would have thought the "elastic band" effect of the chain growth on the derailleur to be less significant, even with a clutch
There's benefits to the gearbox on this bike but the truly amazing benefits come from what he can do to the suspension, that no traditional drivetrain can actually achieve. You don't normally hear conversations about this stuff because the rest of the industry can't solve it.
I was really interested in this frame as the prototype form w/ high idler pulley. Hope to see the G2/G3 make a comeback soon. I really am into the idea of that bike or the mentioned G19 as a replacement for my V10C
Here is Beniot Coulanges N19/20
www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/PIT-BITS-Leogang-World-Cup-Downhill,9054/Benoit-Coulanges-Nicolai-ION-20-EffiGear-Belt-Drive-World-Cup-DH-Bike,93075/sspomer,2
Not saying either way about e-bikes. Only that it would make money.
Were definitely in the "early adopter" phase of gearbox bikes but I have to say its definitely worth it! such a fun bike, and thats what really counts in the end!
also on that link I showed you earlier, on their site, they do talk about the benefit of having the motor on the hub so there's not extra motorized stress on the gearbox so maybe thats why they're doing it that way now, kinda makes sense
It seems like an easy option for another company to fit into, the pinion mounting standard seems to be gaining traction. Build an E-motor with a frame that just bolts into that.
Rob Metz's quote seems to sum this up pretty well: "But after a while, muscle memory takes over, shifting fades into the background, and the true benefits of the gearbox shine through. At the end of the day, no one high fives each other about the perfect shift, but that perfect roosted corner, that drop you've always been nervous about hitting or just waiting an extra ten seconds at the bottom of a hill for your mates is what brings home the real smiles."
...... I paid $2500 CAD ($1900 usd), years ago as SRAM 11 Speed was just on the rise. Maintenance? I use a citrus degreaser and a hose. A leaf blower to get the water off? A little bit of chain lube before each ride? Still the original derailleur and cassette, which are the only things that are different than the gearbox equipped bike. I have no measurable suspension bind from drivetrain input, and i've never replaced my ancient wear laden technology.
It seems as though this gearbox bike is an exercise in engineering. Something where with units sold - they can afford to continue the development. Some people want to be a part of that. I respect that.
You mean like our universe? Gearboxes are the norm pretty much everywhere but bikes! The first person to think they wanted multiple speeds on their bike had plenty of gearbox knowledge to choose from. Think about it, gearboxes were so bad that they went with derailleur anyway and so has almost everyone since!
That said I hope pinion finds it niche so it can keep up development and narrow the performance and price gaps. More options are more better!
Who really knows...
Looking at it - my #1 question was... Why not more than 160mm? It looks and is built like a damn DH bike.
The one thing that will be hard to get around is the price though. $9500.
That's $12,300 CAD before taxes (gulp) at todays exchange rate. I can buy a couple great bikes for that price.
I get the burly build for DH but would like to see how far you could push it the other way. Maybe this is something the distributer could arrange.
I ride 29er, so my consideration of weight may be off for 27.5. A double down or DH style 29er tire is usually in the 1-1.2kg range, while a light-weight trail tire is around 800-900grams.
$9,500 for a bike with 600% gear range in a heavy package that doesn't climb well, can't be shifted under power, and really is just meant for the downs? Am I missing a point here? The emphasis is on the gear box, which doesn't seem to work very well doing the things that gear boxes are supposed to do. Who cares if you can shift upside down or when peadaling backwards if you can't do it when you need to?
I applaud the effort, and it really does look like excellent machining. But it needs to be lighter and you MUST be able to shift when driving power. Nylon gears perhaps would address the weight. the addition of a clutch or something for the shifting?
Also, have you ridden that Polygon? In a lot of ways, it's a bit like the Taniwha in that its performance is so unique that it's hard to compare it to others. The bike pedals as well as a lot of 130mm-ish bikes. Unreal.
Surely the feel of the bike can be changed by tuning / changing the shock / forks.
I see 3 main issues with the bike, 2 of which are directed at the Pinion gearbox:
1) Surprisingly not mentioned by Mike is the coarse take up (points of engagement) in the gearbox itself. If you never backpedal, you won't notice it when riding, but if you do, it is very noticeable and compounded by POE in the rear wheel. This can through you off your game when riding some tech stuff.
2) Shifting under load. It is definitely a skill you need to relearn since you can't do what comes naturally with a derailleur bike, but once you have it sorted, most of the time you can bang off shifts while climbing or whenever you need, and you don't need to preplan. If you are following another rider on a climb and the pace is slow for your cadence, it can be near impossible to pause pedaling sufficiently to do a shift though. That said, I can grab as many gears as I want, even when climbing, and after the split second shift I can immediately go to full power and don't have to soft pedal to wait for the chain to thread up on the cassette. Don't get me wrong, I would love it if I could do a down shift while under at least light load, but it isn't a deal breaker once you acclimate to it IMO. It does complicate things when you have more than one bike and only one is a gearbox bike. Definitely took a couple of rides this spring to go from the fat bike to the Taniwha and get the shifting technique dialed back in.
The bike with the gearbox is clearly a bit heavier, and it shows through at times when riding it, and no matter how you slice it, the gearbox is going to add a bit more drag since it hasn't eliminated the chain or jockey wheels but has added the gears and seals in the box. That said, once it is broken in, it isn't that noticeable. The lower the gear, the less noticeable.
That is the downside, but on the upside, the traction is on another level and the balance of the bike is good.
Though I have broken a few derailleurs over the years, that was not a factor. Current derailleurs are acceptably reliable, but they will not outlive the bike like the gearbox should.
For the Taniwha itself, as Mike has said, it is not the most explosive bike when jumping on the pedals. I put this down to the bias of the rear suspension design to maximize traction.
Sizing is a bit odd, but if the bike fits, no issues. I'm 6'-1" and ride the large. I would say it is a touch short in the reach for me, but not enough that I'd go to the XL.
I think this is a excellent bike for what it was intended to do, break new ground. With that comes some benefits and some side effects. I think each person needs to decide for themselves if the benefits are worth the compromises. Sadly, I feel for most that just have the opportunity for a short test ride, the compromises will out shadow the benefits.
I feel in time, the technology is likely to evolve to address most of the down sides. In the meantime, I remain happy with the bike but recognize there remains room for improvement.
Firstly, when you put DH rims and tires on a bike it gets heavier. I run appropriate components on my XL and it is a hair over 31 pounds. These are not heavy bikes. They can be heavy if you put heavy components on them, they can be light if you put light components on them. This is not hard to figure out!! If the bike isn’t set up for the riding you are doing them change the set up!
Secondly , if you are going to test a bike and give your opinion to the world, you should be able to ride a bike to it’s potential and offer quality feedback. I’m afraid this is a case of garbage in equals garbage out. I just stumbled onto this www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DtmjT9mMeM I’m sorry but I have to be honest, I do not intend this to be a personal attack, BUT Mike does not know how to ride a bike! I had to note his efforts at 1.08 , 4.20 I had to call it quits at this point. Stabbing your brakes mid corners is what absolute beginners do, if you are doing this you are not in a position to think clearly and logically about where, when and how to shift or even comment on suspension performance, geometry etc!! and clearly you are going to have issues relearning a shift procedure (which you did on a mech) if you are so preoccupied with doing the basics badly!
I could go on and on about this “review” but I won’t. Instead I suggest you talk to a Zerode customer, check out my facebook page and website or contact me. If “reviews” like this dictate the future of mountain biking then mountain bikers should be afraid!
I do find it humorous that you cited a video intended to be more of a comedy, tongue in cheek type of thing that was really just an opportunity to get Brendan on film talking about how to ride a bike fast. Not that I'm overly concerned about what you make of me, but all of the pre-lesson riding in that video was exaggerated to show the difference between it and post-lesson from Brendan. To be honest, I was a little concerned about exactly what you've described, but then I realized that it was just for a fun little video. Hey, I wonder how you'd look on film compared to Fairclough? Amazing, I'm sure!
I've talked to more than one Zerode customer that, for the most part, agrees with my take, not to mention the riders who've been fortunate to just test ride the bike. But that's neither here nor there because, as we all know, every bike has fans and has haters. And when a bike is as unique and special as yours, it's bound to be far more polarizing than a run of the mill bike. You should probably get used to that if you're going to keep doing this whole gearbox thing.
Sorry that I didn't like your bike at all, Rob, but, unlike you, I did stop short of referencing garbage as that's not exactly a tactful approach in a public forum. If it were me, I might have gone with ''hot dumpster fire,'' though. Anyway, I know that there are many others out there who do like the Taniwha, regardless of my "review," and I know that you're obviously extremely passionate about what you do. If more people had the passion you do, we might actually have gearbox bikes that perform well enough for all sorts of use... but we don't. Yet.
Secondly I think that Rob does have a valid point with you crying about the weight of a bike, where it was speced as a freeride bike with a porky 2kg+ fork, DH rims, and DH tyres with a combined weight of ∼2350g. As other commenters have mentioned you really should try comparing apples with apples, especially when you want to make comparisons with a bikes that are speced with a fork, rims and tyres which alone would reduce the weight to the tune of 1kg.
FWIW I briefly rode a mates Taniwha a couple of months back, this one was speced with some single ply tyres, a Lyrik, some lighter Wheelwork x Onyx wheels and a Push Elevensix. The thing came in around 14kg. Didn't feel terribly heavy to me. Was like riding on a cloud thou'.
All in all, Rob comes across as passionate and somewhat incensed by a fairly harsh and somewhat flawed review. Your response this was petty and does a disservice to you and PB, as it reads as little more than swinging dicks.
And for what it's worth, no disservice to the Taniwha, but my Capra will out climb and out descend this bike (it has 180mm of well engineered suspension), and it weighs closer to 28lbs.
I'm honestly surprised, that a person from the bike industry expected a "review" from this media outlet. Just from visiting this site one can quite quickly establish that the "content" here falls somewhere between infotainment and advertorials.
And one Vernon doesn't change the overall picture.
I appreciate your passion and commitment to trying to find better solutions for a MTB. MTB, in general, benefits from innovative thinking like yours. However, this type of response from company leadership demonstrates a lack of maturity that should give any customer pause when it comes to evaluating the longevity of your brand which makes it real hard for me to invest 9500 in a bike of yours.
I genuinely believe that for a section of the mountain bike community the Zerode Taniwha is the best and most fun bike they can possibly own. Early on in this journey I tested the Pinion gearbox, modified how I ride and shift and whole heartedly believe that the advantages of the Pinion outweigh the disadvantages. If I hadn’t come to this conclusion the project would never have got off the ground.
It takes a HUGE amount of commitment and risk both financial and personal to make a project like this happen. Anyone that has attempted a similar thing in their life time will understand what this feels like, those of you that haven’t please take the time to think about it. As a result it is very difficult not to take any criticism very personally.
The best place for me is in my garage creating or on my bike riding! Not dwelling on the fact that I don’t have the resources and marketing power etc etc of much bigger brands or that I can’t bring out a new model every few months. I know if I spend time on the interweb taking in what the rest of the bike industry is doing these frustrations become very real to me. Every minute we are exposed to the new best thing ever! 5 seconds later we are looking for something new. I use a handful of rules to ensure I can carry on doing what I love and making bikes and not stressing about what I can’t do. Rule number one is that I don’t look at bike related websites and never look at comments.
Yesterday I broke that rule, the attachment I have to this epic project that has consumed me for years made some of Mikes comments feel like a personal attack on me and it didn’t seem fair that because the large voice he has should expose a huge number of people to his opinion and thoughts on the bike and that these opinions and thoughts differ to mine. Having dug a little deeper I understand that Mike is fully capable of testing a bike to its full potential and I just have to come to terms that he didn’t gel with the shifting and set up in the same way that I do or my customers do. I would prefer that the bike Mike tested was built up with lighter parts that may well be more suited to the style of riding he prefers. But the point of this reply is not to argue or get my point across. It is to say sorry to Mike and that I appreciate that he is also doing the best job he can, his thoughts and opinions are valid and well thought out and I need to obey my own rules not to get upset by people that don’t agree with me or see my point of view.
I hope this helps you all understand what it is like to be in my position and why I said what I said.
As of now I will engage rule number one again. If you have any questions about Zerode bikes or just want get in touch you can email me at rob@zerodebikes.com I’ll be in my garage, riding my bike and answering emails and will happily respond to anyone. Forums are comments are not my happy place so I will not be here in the future!
PS. Apparently I posted a comment four time! Put that down forum incompetence.
Happy trails.
Rob
I doubt Mike did ride his demo taniwha much. If he couldnt figure out how to shift it while pedalling up and down - something that takes at least a month to become natural at - that's a give away. And it's been winter up there.
I have a Taniwha and couldn’t go back to a traditional drivetrain now. I think the pros of the gearbox easily outweigh any cons. Not sure why that one you rode weighs that much. My Specs as follows:
Weight: 14.5kg / 32lbs
Size: XL - 475 reach, 460 seat tube (custom shortened by Rob). All new ones will have the shorter seat tubes.
Dropper Seatpost: 175 ks (try putting that in a slash)! SDG ti fly saddle.
170 Lyrics, Fox X2
Saint brakes, 203, 180
2.6 Maxxis DHF & 2.4WT DHR on carbon 30mm Roam rims.
Joystick 35 stem and carbon 790 bars.
This is a fairly burly, but not too heavy by any means.
Previous bike was a SC Nomad. Zerode is much better imo.
I cannot understand how you could struggle so badly adapting to the gearbox shifting. Maybe some adapt easy and some don’t?
From day one I didn’t have any issues changing up or down. I guess i naturally ease off the weight on the pedals for a split second as I change, but still keep pedals spinning. Total non issue.
Hitting a sudden pinch climb in a big gear used to mean grunting through a couple of pedal strokes while a derailleur changed down (without braking chain), but with the Taniwha you don’t try grunt through it, you just relax for a split second and dump instantly into whatever low gear you want, in a fraction of the time of a traditional setup. Maybe you were trying to grunt it out? And Bagging 12 gears over a 600% range? It’s perfect I think.
Geometry is similar to my nomad, weighs about 1kg more so climbing not that different. Decends way better!! Way more stable. Way quieter and way cooler I think.
Maybe I just have a better setup or something ...
I put somewhere between 25 and 30 rides (didn't record a few in my notes) on the Taniwha during the last three months, and I'll likely do a few more on it before I get it back to the US distributor, Cycle Monkey. I would have liked to squeezed more rides in but our winter was horrendous and I managed to get a month-long ''cold'' that I thought might kill me. It was possibly the bird flu, I'm not sure. Or Ebola.
You'd be surprised if you knew how little time many industry testers spend on a bike - not to attack any other reviewer out there, but it's not uncommon for a bike to get as little as 3 or 4 rides. I blame it on time constraints and the pressure to "Get it posted before someone else does! GET IT POSTED!" That's not the case for everyone, of course, and we strive for at least a full month of riding a bike before a review gets posted, which is why each PB editor only posts one bike review per month. Thankfully, we have the staff to still post a bike review every week, which isn't possible if the crew is smaller or has other responsibilities.
Anyway, I feel like the review was reasonably in-depth, but I also have a follow-up video to come where I talk more about the bike and get challenged by some legit questions. The Taniwha is an important, special bike, and I agree that it deserves more attention than most others. As for setup, I'm intimately familiar with Cane Creek's suspension and heavy tires, so we're all good there
I would love to see a mid travel 29 Zerode trail bike. Hopefully one is in the works.
I think this is necessary on a bike like this which is definitely not the norm.
Needs an oil change every other year
Bomb proof
A tad heavy
Perfect match for my open bath Marzocchi forks!
Wait a minute.
Parts that don't need upgrading or replacing for years.
Can't have that.
I bought this bike a few months ago (fox build tho) and I must say I never rode a better bike. The suspension is just the best thing ever. It rides like a dream. It sticks to the ground; the grip is there, always! Jumping is smooth and super stable.
Then we come to shifting. For me, first few rides were a constant struggle. I had to think about shifting all the time, and I got caught in the wrong gear more than once. But the ”You cannot switch under load” sounds terrible, but it’s pretty far from the truth. After you get your muscle memory dialled in, you unlock new dimensions. You figure out that if you reduce the pedal pressure for a split second, you can change gear(s) without an issue. More time you spend on the bike, better and more efficient you become at it. Now I enjoy the grip shifter. It allows you to open all powers of the gearbox. Trigger shifter would give another choice and help with adoption, but I don't need one and will not switch to one even if available.
Let me compare it with my previous derailleur bikes. It happened more than once that when I suddenly hit the pinch in high gear and badly needed to switch, I couldn't. Grinding through gears didn't work, it was too steep. I couldn't spin the chain enough to get to the lower gear. But the worse was yet to come. I had to step down from the bike, lift the rear end, hand pedal and shift to get it done... If something like this happened to me now, I would release the pressure for a split second and pedal forward with correct gear
When we talk about benefits of a gearbox bike, people keep mentioning bent/destroyed rear derailleurs (quite uncommon). What about cassette/chainring wear? Winter riding in muddy/sandy conditions that accelerates wear. Shifting adjustments/tunning, etc. Pinion gearbox requires an oil change every 10k km. How many cassettes and chainrings would you replace in the meantime?
There is no ideal bike and guess what; this one isn't either. Has + & - and each should decide if it suits them. If XC would be my regular riding, then this bike wouldn't be my first choice. Since I enjoy downhills way more than I ever will uphills, I consider this bike perfect for me. No bike will make going uphill highlight for me, so I'm going to stick with something that puts a massive grin on my face at the bottom of the hill.
I'm looking forward to getting more gearbox bikes on the market that will make them more affordable to the crowds.
Thanks, Rob! Keep up the good work!
PS: The build that Mike Levy had is just one of the options. In states, Fanatik Bike offers custom bike builder where you can setup your custom Taniwha build: www.fanatikbike.com/products/bike-builder
And in New Zealand, you can order a custom one directly from Zerode.
Only thing I would argue about is that once you learn how to shift it on pincher climbs i find it better than a traditional drivetrain. You can’t shift under load but if you time it well you back your pressure off the pedals and shift through your gears simultaneously, and since you don’t have to “pedal through a shift” (wait for the chain to shift to the gear you picked) as soon as you click you’re in gear.
It’s amazing and simplifies so much more than you’d think. I want all my future mtn bikes to have gearboxes, and I know they’ll only get lighter and better!
Adhesive backed Velcro (the hook side) all over my chainstay keeps things incredibly quiet. Blends in well on a matte black frame.
The clutch on a derailuer works well to quell some noise / slap however the clutch resistance adds a resistance to the suspension movement upon compression ( as it holds the chain / prevents it from growing slightly ) thus effecting the bump compliance. Every hit.
Also the derailuer will slap itself against the B screw limiter as it is allowed to pivot from the mounting bolt. I used to zip tie hack my sram derailuers to the chain stay on my V10 and Nomad so it could shift cleanly but not pivot at the mount. ( worked well )
I actually had the chance to ride both the 2018 Slash & Hightower LT yesterday and session a gnarly section of trail back to back ( my Zerode included ) and the result was that the derailuer/ cassette combo on the Slash & LT was killing the performance of those bikes. The difference was huge.
Try some 3M mastic tape on your chainstay too. It washes up a bit better and looks pretty much factory.
Ride On.
You gained speed so fast trough a lot of stuff and trough pusing the bike because the suspension wasnt affected by the chain.
It was smooth and quit- only tyre noise.
Might give singlespeed / chainless a try on my Delirium for bikepark laps- less to break down= less expensive
Derailleurs and chains are pretty easy for an amateur mechanic to work with. The only real benefit I see of a gearbox is reduced wear rate
Just because something is a gearbox does not AUTOMATICALLY mean that its going to be more durable.
I'm certain the main reason for the box is to get the unsprung mass down which is the single biggest factor in suspension performance increase regardless of linkage design.
The problem is that people expect a gearbox to function the same or better than a derailleur. There are always compromises with these sorts of things.
I've owned one for over a year now and brought it for the low maintenance and suspension performance and in that regard it's been pretty good. I'm the sort of person who doesn't mind trading a bit of weight and a gripshifter for the best preforming suspension I can get my hands on. The bike is perfectly suited to the rough tracks that we have around here. It's very confidence inspiring and has got me out of trouble more times than I can count.
I've built my bike up pretty heavy because I don't like it when things break. Would it be nice if it was a little lighter? Sure. But I prefer reliability. There is nothing stopping you building one up light though. There are a few Taniwha's around where I live now and I've seen some pretty light builds if you care about the weight. I wouldn't let the weight argument put you off buying one.
Now onto the gearbox. The gearbox isn't perfect - but neither is a derailleur. Would it benefit from more points of engagement? Yep - but you can offset that by using an Onyx rear hub and then you just get used to it. Would I prefer a trigger shifter? Yes probably - but the gripshift isn't that bad at all. Can't shift under load? Well you get used to that too. I actually find it easier to change gears while climbing steep hills with the gearbox. Being able to shift without pedaling is pretty good too. I've ridden one of these antiquated Santa Cruz bikes since owning a Taniwha and the shifting just seems clunky.
You need to remember that the pinion gearbox will improve over time and as long as the mounting standard doesn't change you can swap out the gearbox with a newer version - just like you can swap out your derailleur now.
Whether you buy one or not depends on what sort of trails you ride and what sort of rider you are I suppose. If you are anal retentive about weight probably not. If you mostly ride smooth easy tracks then probably not. But if you ride proper tracks and want the best descending bike you can get then you should seriously consider it.
If they could just ditch the tensioner I would be happy even at the expenses of suspension performance (you can always tune it out with the shock)
With an adjustment to the frame / pivot design, this may be possible.. But at that point i'd like to see Gates Carbon drive for the ultimate in low/no maintenance.
My buddy Tim put this video together from last fall on his Taniwha. I've spent a small amount of time on this bike and will agree the descending and cornering prowess of this bike is on another level. Sprung weight vs. unsprung weight is probably a factor along with geos and suspension design.
Relative to pedaling and shifting it does take time to learn the system. You can become efficient with it when timing your shifts relative to pedal positions and load. When learned there is very little compromise with shifting to an easier gear while climbing. Traditional drivetrains also have their quirks that we have largely just become accustomed to.
Downhill it is the best bike I have ever ridden, the rear wheel tracks the ground brilliantly. It's weakness is tight and twisty XC single track; there are many bikes that accelerate quicker.
Shifting is no big deal once you get used to it, just stop spinning momentarily before you shift. The cool thing is that you can shift as many gears as you like in one go. I'm sure that there is some friction associated with the gearbox, but it would take a strong rider to notice it.
Just ride more, gett stronger and plan your shifting a bitt... Cant dump 2-3 gears under full power with a normal bike eather and not lose momentum or have the chain jump over cogs..
Traction is amazing on it, and i dont shift that mutch in climbs anyway so it not a problem for me. How often do you shift alot in a climb? Technical ones for me is more about staying in one gear to keep momentum and traction. If i need to shift i do it when i have to backpedal or lift the back wheel over a rock anyway.
Its a different system, it need to be used in a different way.
Ther are pros and cons to both.
I genuinely believe that for a section of the mountain bike community the Zerode Taniwha is the best and most fun bike they can possibly own. Early on in this journey I tested the Pinion gearbox, modified how I ride and shift and whole heartedly believe that the advantages of the Pinion outweigh the disadvantages. If I hadn’t come to this conclusion the project would never have got off the ground.
It takes a HUGE amount of commitment and risk both financial and personal to make a project like this happen. Anyone that has attempted a similar thing in their life time will understand what this feels like, those of you that haven’t please take the time to think about it. As a result it is very difficult not to take any criticism very personally.
The best place for me is in my garage creating or on my bike riding! Not dwelling on the fact that I don’t have the resources and marketing power etc etc of much bigger brands or that I can’t bring out a new model every few months. I know if I spend time on the interweb taking in what the rest of the bike industry is doing these frustrations become very real to me. Every minute we are exposed to the new best thing ever! 5 seconds later we are looking for something new. I use a handful of rules to ensure I can carry on doing what I love and making bikes and not stressing about what I can’t do. Rule number one is that I don’t look at bike related websites and never look at comments.
Yesterday I broke that rule, the attachment I have to this epic project that has consumed me for years made some of Mikes comments feel like a personal attack on me and it didn’t seem fair that because the large voice he has should expose a huge number of people to his opinion and thoughts on the bike and that these opinions and thoughts differ to mine. Having dug a little deeper I understand that Mike is fully capable of testing a bike to its full potential and I just have to come to terms that he didn’t gel with the shifting and set up in the same way that I do or my customers do. I would prefer that the bike Mike tested was built up with lighter parts that may well be more suited to the style of riding he prefers. But the point of this reply is not to argue or get my point across. It is to say sorry to Mike and that I appreciate that he is also doing the best job he can, his thoughts and opinions are valid and well thought out and I need to obey my own rules not to get upset by people that don’t agree with me or see my point of view.
I hope this helps you all understand what it is like to be in my position and why I said what I said.
As of now I will engage rule number one again. If you have any questions about Zerode bikes or just want get in touch you can email me at rob@zerodebikes.com I’ll be in my garage, riding my bike and answering emails and will happily respond to anyone. Forums are comments are not my happy place so I will not be here in the future!
PS. Apparently I posted a comment four time! Put that down forum incompetence. On my part! ( user incompentence!)
Happy trails.
Rob
I talked myself out of a G16 gearbox last season. Went with the MOJO G16 instead.
If the bike is so different, treat it that way. You have a dishless back wheel that needs a light and stiff rim with a 2.3 tyre maximum (DHR), this way you actually take advantage of the system. if you still need a bigger tyre up front go for it, but how many people smash their front wheels up...exactly so keep that light and stick a 2.4 on it.
People looking at this bike are going to be experienced riders, they should know how to corner and pump and ride high lines. they will be looking down the trail and will learn that if they read the trail well, they can dump as many gears as they want when they round a bend and see a pinch climb in about 2 seconds of time. the same people don't need plus tyres to stick a high rooty line and will revel in the bikes ability to descend.
I completely agree this is not a bike for everyone, and it is not flawless, but you have completely misunderstood this bike. Biking for most of us is about having fun...even when we are racing. This bike has it in spades and the hill climbing is not an issue. I spend way less time maintaining this bike and thus have more time to enjoy it.
I have owned this bike (version 1 with the P1 gearbox which is heavier) since December 2016. I ride with all the same friends and group rides on trails that regularly feature in EWS (who Ride SC/Transition/Yeti/Intense) as I always have. I have good and bad days in the skills dept., very rarely shuttle and like to earn my downhill, I have also recently done a 5 day backcountry riding trip with no issues and lots of smile time.
Questions answered:
-Yes their is a slower pick up than a normal bike
-No I wouldn't change the shifter even if a trigger was an option (I would assess the electric once produced) but it would need to change a lot of gears quickly to sway me.
-No I do not know how much my bike weighs
-The weight is centred and low and this benefits the ride
-You can shift under load, the amount of torque reduction and the time needed to shift becomes part of your riding skills.
-I am not a robot but cannot feel any drag in the system, even though i am told it is there
-Yes it is expensive, but after a year I replaced my drivetrain (Chain plus 2 x $30NZ chainrings), instead of god knows how much on a new cassette.
-Previous bikes inc SC TRC, Bronson, Nomad.
-We now have 2 in the garage and my next one will be a Zerode too.
When is somebody going to launch some Pinion competition. I don't need a gearbox on my bike that can drive a small car, I just need a lighter weight gearbox that will last a few seasons. Shimano?
I normally hate bs in reviews, but I am a sucker for euphemisms, i love euphemisms like a fat kid loves cake, and this review is rife with hilarious ones.
You had me at,
"Forget everything I moaned about when being forced to type out my notes on climbing - you won't give a single shit after riding the Taiwha how it was intended to be ridden. On a rough, fast trail, the kind that you maybe get a little nervous to ride, this thing will make other bikes feel like a Mumford & Sons song that you play quietly in your Yaris with the windows rolled up because it's Mumford & Sons. But the Taniwha? It's you cranking Slayer to 11 from the speakers in your Abrams tank while tearing up the grass at your old high school. It's tank donuts."
1. I found the shifting super easy to get used to. I thought was way easier to slow my pedal stroke down for a millisecond and dump a bunch of gears than it is to grind up the cassette on my xt 1x11.
2. I didn't really notice the weight, and it seemed to pedal pretty efficiently. I was able to keep up without any problem with my friends on climbs, both technical and not technical, and I thought the traction for climbing was better than most bikes I've tried. I only rode about 15 miles the day I was trying it out though.
3. I thought the Helm was super divey, way more so than my pike. Didn't get on with it at all.
4. I have to clean my drive-train weekly, if I don't want it to sound like a box of rocks, riding all year round in the winter. Less maintenance would be huge for me.
5. I thought the bike was super playful. I was able to clear some little doubles in a four-pack on evo that I've always cased on other bikes.
Besides that, I totally agree that it was an incredible descender. I will very likely buy a used XL when they're no longer so spendy in a few years and cut the seat tube down a bit for a longer dropper (I'm 6'). I was 100% sold.
I may be in the not care about speed at all on the climbs demo-graphic that Levy kept referring to in the review.
I genuinely don't feel the weight holds me back when climbing, it's no xc bike, but I feel the extra weight is offset by the gear range. I get to the top at the same speed as my partner, just as I did on the nomad and if anything tend to feel fresher. We did 1000m vertical yesterday, same today, same planned for tomorrow. As for the shifting, I love it, I don't ever want to use a derailleur again, even on steep awakward climbs I manage to drop a gear, the idea of having to pedal to change gears now seems ridiculous and inconvenient to say the least in 99% of scenarios. As for descending, well, Mike nailed it, its unreal, my DH bike is for sale.
I see how some people may not gel with it, and while I disagree with the opinions in this review they are valid and understandable, this bike is not for everyone, but those who make the adjustments in riding style required and have the terrain will fall head over heels in love with it, as I am.
Personnaly have a Cavalerie Anakin under my ass, and all the benefits you wrote on the Taniwha
are on the Anakin.
Light rear, huge grip, and all the others benefices. And with an shifter option for those who don't like the gripshift , and a belt option too for less mainteance on the drive drain.
Customisable paints or Anodisations if you want.
For me it certainly play in the same category as the Zerode, NO NEED to face them one against the other, they'll go in the same better ride ideology.
My Nikolai frame was 4000€ with a shock and extra belt, the same as a highend carbon frame from the big brand, BUT with a gearbox included. Total bike is around 6500€.
This is something that I've never read, I've never heard about, and I've never seen. And I have to tell you - unfortunately - they don't talk about it because it is pure garbage and it makes me very very sad. This past February I went to the www.nahbs.com NAHBS in Hartford, CT. Pinion had a booth setup and I got to check out this bike: blog.gatescarbondrive.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Nicolai-Ion-G13-profile.jpg
It is pure sex. I've ALWAYS loved nicolai. Unfortunately, once you start playing with the Pinion, everything goes to hell. Pinion, if I remember correctly, was developed by Porsche engineer(s). It was something that he always had in his head and he then put it to the application of bikes. From what I remember, this was not something made for bikes, but something adapted to bikes. Even though that beautiful Nicolai had a modern hubset with lets say at least 48 points of engagement, the Pinion system trumps all of that. Pinion has 13 (or was it 14?) points of engagement. No, I'm not kidding. I'm not joking at all. The points of engagement are absolutely a joke. 13 points. That means your crank arms move about 25degrees before you catch another point. It's a complete joke. I currently ride Hadley hubs with 72 POE. I would NEVER, EVER go to 13. It just feels soooo lazy. It really really made me sad to discover this because again in everything I've ever read, I've never seen someone call Pinion out on this. It just makes the whole bike feel cheap and sloppy.
Pinion engagement is about every 25 degree of crank rotation. There is no hub on the market that can match that. It's just piss poor. What I'm saying is you could use ANY bicycle hub with the Pinion and your system would still suck because of the slop within the transmission.
I had a Taniwha for all of last season, and while it does feel ridiculous when standing still, the lag isn't that noticeable on the trail (I had a Hope Pro4 SS, 88poe). The weight; however, is.
I ride it with an Onyx hub ( which I set it up with from day 1 with the fear of the lag which I hate )
It's 'acceptable' on most rides but does suck ( as do I ) on low speed tech climbs and tight berms that require a pedal stroke. If the bike is pointing down a slope, you don't notice it at all.
my hadley's have 5degree. industry 9 has 3degree. those feel good pointing up or down a hill
The box is not spining when coasting so it starts wher you left it.
Tho more POE would be nice its not bothering me when riding. I gess the low number have to to with the way the gears work, but a short email to pinion will probably answer why its the way it is.
This bike actually does climb incredibly well, its just not a fast XC climber. I did trans NZ this year and was climbing long steep fireroad climbs that most riders walked, I've been riding for a while but I attribute most of that to the crazy low gear you can get into.
Despite it being a 160mm enduro shredder, it absolutely gets you to the top if you're cruising.
ALSO Sam Shaw has won XC races on his taniwha #justsayin
Up vote for a second test spell with Kazimer?
It is much better than my freshly build bike with eagle.
With some practice, you can shift gears on uphill’s easier than with rear derailleur.
Compared to my 1x11 and eagle driven bikes, it is much easier and faster in shifting. In addition, my p1.12 geared with 1-1 sprockets in size they are equivalent of 32h chain rings and its have wider diapason than my eagle with 30h chaining.
Either way, it's great to see continued pursuit of improved drivetrains. It seems inevitable that gear boxes will eventually be preferable. The question to me is only about when. Is here already? Or will it happen after I'm too old for it to make a difference? The general consensus is... there is no consensus.
I have a Taniwha and couldn’t go back to a traditional drivetrain now. I think the pros of the gearbox easily outweigh any cons. Specs as follows:
Weight: 14.5kg / 32lbs
Size: XL - 475 reach, 460 seat tube (custom shortened by Rob). All new ones will have the shorter seat tubes.
Dropper Seatpost: 175 ks (try putting that in a slash)! SDG ti fly saddle.
170 Lyrics, Fox X2
Saint brakes, 203, 180
2.6 Maxxis DHF & 2.4WT DHR on carbon 30mm rims.
Joystick 35 stem and carbon 790 bars.
This is a fairly burly, but not too heavy build.
Previous bike was a SC Nomad. Zerode is much better imo.
I cannot understand how someone could struggle so badly adapting to the gearbox shifting as Mike Levy seemed to. Maybe it has less to do with riding ability and more to do with ability to adapt to new things?
From day one I didn’t have any issues changing up or down. I guess i naturally ease off the weight on the pedals for a split second as I change, but still keep pedals spinning. Total non issue.
Hitting a sudden pinch climb in a big gear used to mean grunting through a couple of pedal strokes while a derailleur changed down (without braking chain), but with the Taniwha you don’t try grunt through it, you just relax for a split second and dump instantly into whatever low gear you want, in a fraction of the time of a traditional setup. Maybe Mike kept trying to grunt it out ... or just a bit uncoordinated with his changing? And why the hell is he complaining about having 12 gears over a 600% range? It’s perfect I think.
Geometry is similar to a nomad, weighs about 1kg more so climbing not different. Decends way better!! Way more stable. Way quieter and way cooler I think.
A trail type bike for 'cross country' (but probably not actual xc race) on trail centre type stuff would likely make more sense if the weight could be reduced - maybe by reducing the gear range.
Just preview photo type things
Sounds rad....but also sad?
From Pinkbike's article April '17 article on Pinion (www.pinkbike.com/news/inside-pinion.html):
"Out on the trail you cannot shift under load. When asked about this Pinion explained that it is a question of torque, the gearbox itself will shift under load, but using a cable shifter you cannot generate enough torque to do it. However, if you were to have an electronic shifter with a servo motor of some kind, then it might be possible..."
This comment is made in the context of Pinion's quality control procedure, in which gearboxes are shifted under load by a motorized rig.
@mikelevy
Something else I've thought about, and wonder if Pinion could actually weigh in here, is utilizing an in-line tension spring or mechism to aid in the shift timing. This might help overcome a lot of the no-shift under load drawbacks without the use of a servo.
Idea being that the spring/tension mechanism would allow you to make the shift at the shifter mechanism while under load, and the tension spring would store the energy required to make the shift. With this in place you could shift in anticipation of needing to drop a gear, but with the energy now stored in the spring the shift doesn't happen until you back off the power for an instant. This would take the critical timing out of the shift action since it will happen at your feet whenever its most practical for you to back off the power. The tension spring would have to be stiff enough that it wouldn't delay a shift if you were already off the power, but I feel like it would completely eliminate the awkwardness of having to coordinate when to back off the power and Then twist the shifter if you knew the shift was automatically going to happen the instant you backed off. There's already lots of moments when we back off the power or micro-ratchet during techy climbs, but our brains and muscle memory is programmed to make the shift happen while we are pedaling and that often happens under load even though it ideally should not. The ability to shift while not pedaling has got to be amazing for rough descents where you cant get a pedal stroke in, but you need to move through the gears in one direction or the other.
I genuinely believe that for a section of the mountain bike community the Zerode Taniwha is the best and most fun bike they can possibly own. Early on in this journey I tested the Pinion gearbox, modified how I ride and shift and whole heartedly believe that the advantages of the Pinion outweigh the disadvantages. If I hadn’t come to this conclusion the project would never have got off the ground.
It takes a HUGE amount of commitment and risk both financial and personal to make a project like this happen. Anyone that has attempted a similar thing in their life time will understand what this feels like, those of you that haven’t please take the time to think about it. As a result it is very difficult not to take any criticism very personally.
The best place for me is in my garage creating or on my bike riding! Not dwelling on the fact that I don’t have the resources and marketing power etc etc of much bigger brands or that I can’t bring out a new model every few months. I know if I spend time on the interweb taking in what the rest of the bike industry is doing these frustrations become very real to me. Every minute we are exposed to the new best thing ever! 5 seconds later we are looking for something new. I use a handful of rules to ensure I can carry on doing what I love and making bikes and not stressing about what I can’t do. Rule number one is that I don’t look at bike related websites and never look at comments.
Yesterday I broke that rule, the attachment I have to this epic project that has consumed me for years made some of Mikes comments feel like a personal attack on me and it didn’t seem fair that because the large voice he has should expose a huge number of people to his opinion and thoughts on the bike and that these opinions and thoughts differ to mine. Having dug a little deeper I understand that Mike is fully capable of testing a bike to its full potential and I just have to come to terms that he didn’t gel with the shifting and set up in the same way that I do or my customers do. I would prefer that the bike Mike tested was built up with lighter parts that may well be more suited to the style of riding he prefers. But the point of this reply is not to argue or get my point across. It is to say sorry to Mike and that I appreciate that he is also doing the best job he can, his thoughts and opinions are valid and well thought out and I need to obey my own rules not to get upset by people that don’t agree with me or see my point of view.
I hope this helps you all understand what it is like to be in my position and why I said what I said.
As of now I will engage rule number one again. If you have any questions about Zerode bikes or just want get in touch you can email me at rob@zerodebikes.com I’ll be in my garage, riding my bike and answering emails and will happily respond to anyone. Forums are comments are not my happy place so I will not be here in the future!
PS. Apparently I posted a comment four time! Put that down forum incompetence.
Happy trails.
Rob
It's pretty clear from @mikelevy's review and the comments here that the Pinion, while amazing in its own right, is letting the bike down in the mass appeal stakes. Yes, many a happy customer have adapted to the way the current gearbox works, but plenty more (like myself) are still waiting for the glaring shortcomings to be fixed. I think Mike's complaint about the lack of snappiness of the bike would be largely rectified by increasing the POE. Sure easier said than done, but super low POE sucks, and that's coming from someone whos certainly no POE junkie. I think they should be aiming for 36pt minimum, but more like 72.
It also seems like the shifter itself does not warrant it's uniqueness, given the coarseness of its operation. I'd much prefer to see a highly polished trigger shifter even if it means a couple of stabs at going through the full range, plus the ergonomic advantages of not thinking about your grip on the bar while shifting and normal grip selection. Given how nice modern shifting feels at the lever now with a cable reaching the full length of the bike, it seems the Pinion should already be on par here, not behind.
I say the above because I feel that Zerode is the brand to bring gearboxes to the masses, but that Pinion (or a competitor) need to up the gearbox game.
Sincerely,
Someone who REALLY wants their next bike to be the (updated) Taniwha
My issue is that I don't think we should be okay with going backwards in performance for the real benefits that a gearbox offers, which is better reliability and being able to shift while coasting, pedalling backwards, etc. The day that a gearbox delivers that while offering shift performance that matches a derailleur system, I'll be all for it. But until then, I'm not about to be okay with how a Pinion 'box shifts.
Or... going the other way... keep it burly as f*ck and force it to shift under load, seems like it could handle it.
It's to bad that currently you have to build a bike that is only really, really good at one thing in order to offset the significant issues with the gearbox.
But, it is early days with these things... I'm one of those guys who just never seems to have major issues with derailleurs. But I am anal as f*ck... and never feel truly happy with how my derailleurs truly perform so I'd love to see this gearbox evolve. Maybe copying more car tech, like a CVT with shift points??
It looks like a transmission. It is a transmission. In your modern car or motorcycle, you have to engage a clutch to remove the strain from the drive line to shift. In old days, you had to double clutch to get things to shift. They got away with that with syncro mesh gear boxes. This needs one of those things. Burly or not. Think of it as driving your car down the road in 1st gear. Need to shift to 2nd? Turn the engine off to stop the engine from spinning the flywheel. Shift to 2nd. Start engine. Rinse repeat. Kind of dumb if you ask me, considering the nature of the vehicle it is designed for.
It doesn't really make sense to me that they would even release these gearboxes without figuring out some kind of auto-clutch mechanism. So when you change a gear, you should be able to keep pedaling, while, for an instant, it decouples power from the cranks, changes the gear, then re-couples the power to the cranks.
It just doesn't seem like a worthwhile endeavor unless you're able to do that.
I think it would be more correct to say someone would choose a gear box bike for an analogous to choosing a manual transmission in a car. They prefer the experience that the overall car or bike gives them. Otherwise I thought it was a great review and could see how the bike would appeal to the right rider.
YT may do grate bikes, but i dont care about them.
"Magura has combined immense power with gentle modulation that makes most other heavy-hitting brakes feel like all you're doing is jamming a golf club through your bike's spokes when you yank the lever."
Is the drag actually much more than a chain and derailleur? is that drag what maybe contributes to the sluggish heavy feel you talk about as while 34lbs isn't light its not crazy compared to other burly enduro bikes. i think this is my main deciding factor as i like the idea of a gearbox (modern 11/12 speed one by chain and cassettes wear out far to quickly in my mind, and aren't cheap to replace) but if it sucks away to much of my power ill stick to a more direct chain and cassette.
Is the drag actually much more than a chain and derailleur? is that drag what maybe contributes to the sluggish heavy feel you talk about as while 34lbs isn't light its not crazy compared to other burly enduro bikes. i think this is my main deciding factor as i like the idea of a gearbox (modern 11/12 speed one by chain and cassettes wear out far to quickly in my mind, and aren't cheap to replace) but if it sucks away to much of my power ill stick to a more direct chain and cassette.
Zerode guy, at first I thought you really blew it with your personal attack and inability to take criticism (Ok, you did blow it), but your later reasoned post somewhat redeems your character, in my mind. I definitely trust Mike's review more than your subjective perspective.
I basically agree with everything Mike wrote, most importantly, perhaps, that this is an important bike, and a revolutionary bike, but perhaps the technology it just not there yet.
Weight matters on a human powered vehicle. Unless this is strictly a downhill machine, or for lift assisted park riding, extra mass makes a big difference. The gearbox folks have to get the weight down. Also, the whole thing with twist shifters and double cables simply needs to be improved, on both hub and bottom bracket gear systems. Last, the engagement needs to be improved. Having so much crank movement before engagement is absurd. These do not seem to be insurmountable problems. The European manufacturers appear pretty conservative, and don't seem to get the fact that people want a light system, with a trigger shift, and quick engagement. Make it happen.
Note that I did not mention the whole shifting (or not shifting) under power thing. Sure, it would be great to shift under power, perhaps necessary for some people, but I can also see getting used to a different system.
As to the bike build (which influences the weight), the design of the suspension, and the geometry tend to indicate a gravity oriented machine, thus I think the parts choices were appropriate, and, with these parts, the bike felt heavy and sluggish to the reviewer. I do not doubt this impression.
It would be cool to see a review of the same bike with a light weight "cross country" build. I bet the final conclusions would not change too much.
Finally, if I'm not mistaken, another writer for Pinkpike, perhaps RC, some time ago wrote a price explaining why he didn't think gearboxes were going to take over. Among his reasons was the fact that most modern suspension designs employ at least some chain elongation, which makes it necessary to have a chain tensioner in the system (much like a deraileur, which is ironic). There were also, of course, the issues of weight, price, and user interface.
Chains, gears, and deraileurs are incredibly efficient. The increased traction and sensitivity from gearboxes are attractive, but until the designers address these issues, I don't think they are viable.
So, as Mike said, this is an important bike, a potentially revolutionary bike, but it comes with some significant drawbacks and compromises.
Without going through all 550+ comments, one of the things that is not mentioned here (at least in the review) is while not having a rear derailleur to smash is great, and while removing all of the unsprung weight of a derailleur and 10-50t cassette is also an amazing benefit to rear suspension performance, the gearbox is virtually bullet proof and replacement proof. There are no amount of miles you can put on this gearbox that will kill it LONG before you've killed the frame or the zombie apocalypse happens. Having to replace a 10-50t cassette (ouch), chain, and chainring often is a major ongoing expense that simply doesn't happen with the Pinion gearbox. Yes, in this case, you do have to replace the chain and chainrings at some point, they will wear, but because the chainline is ALWAYS straight, the wear on the chain is less, and obviously one cog is WAY less expensive than a 10-50 cassette.
There's really low cost over time. You dont have to replace $500 cassettes, chains last way longer (mine just lasted a year of hard use), your der will never get smashed by anything or wear out. So your overtime cost is so low compared to a traditional drivetrain.
If you're going to talk about the price being an issue, this is a really important thing to be aware of.
Is a Pinion C.Line Gearbox gonna make the difference? No, not even if you replace that with 950.0 Bosch CX Watts.
Mind you, i do respect a gearbox for its marvelous engineering.
No, it's certainly possible. You just need a shorter cassette body and ~25% jumps between gears.
www.sram.com/sram/mountain/family/ex1#sm.0000jn6ggws2hfj6z5f1i4sv4tkls
This does not sound like something I would pedal around the local trails.
Is this thing already obsolete because of the short reach and 27.5 wheels?
Been asking myself this a lot since the Ripmo came out: is 27.5 dead? Are all serious mountain bikes going to be 29 soon?
But at the end of the day, two things are that this is way out of my price range and the other is that as much as I like the idea of zero maintenance, frankly, I spend a lot more time putzing with my brakes than my drivertrain. So I'm not sure if a zero maintenance drivertrain really pays as many dividends in real life as it does in my imagination. And at the end of the time, in terms of time, 85% of the "drivetrain maintenance" that I do is lubing my chain. I presume you'll still need to lube the chain on the Zerode.
No drag on the first few gears as far as i can tell on my G16.
And can you shift to a ligher gear under load on a modern derailleur drivetrain? I'm riding with an X9 9sp rear mech and if I try this it may work initially. Then suddenly the chain skips for a quarter stroke with a loud bang. It is much safer to first pedal a bit harder to gain speed, then back off (so you lose your speed) while you shift. I've tried gripshift in the rear for a while. It definitely allows you to shift under load a bit easier because you can use more force to shift. But I've bent a few rearmechs in the process so I'm using the X7 trigger shifter again. On my next build I plan to upgrade to ten speed (Shimano Zee) so I'm curious whether it would actually survive shifting under load.
I got sick of blowing up rear derailleurs in our rocky trails, so I came up with my own solution. In 2012, I put a Shimano Alfine internal geared hub on my Santa Cruz Nickel and made my own chain tensioner, similar to the one used on the Zerode. I've ridden this setup solid for five years now and not a single issue.
With the Alfine, you can still shift under reduced power, but the benefits of shifting without pedaling far out weigh any negatives. Being able to shift without pedaling during a rocky tech descent as you anticipate a steep climb burst is great. @mikelevy failed to recognize this.
I don't think weight is the real problem with gear box. From my experience, the only real issue is drag in the transmission. On the Zerode, he still uses a two jocky wheel tensioner, similar to a normal derailleur setup. So, the Zerode has to have more drag than a traditional derailleur. Whatever the friction from the gears may be, it's more than a derailleur.
A little bit of drag is not so bad when riding by yourself, but when riding with a group of XC jocks on a 1000 meter climb, you will definitely notice the drag.
I suspect @mikelevy was experiencing drag and naively blaming it on weight.
This season, I am now riding a Canfield Balance with a derailleur, my first in five years. I must admit, the more efficient derailleur setup is nicer on long climbs.
Or is the plan to be swapping out your gear box to a new bike frame every year ?
The real Gearbox is called Bosch (etc.) and its outselling the likes of Pinion 10.000 : 1
As for carbon fiber, gripshifters were made of carbon back in 1998 as were DH forks, not really a NOVELTY or boast material anymore
If i'm going to get on a bike for XC/Trail usage where I know I have to do both climbs and descents that also weighs more than 34lbs then just give me an e-bike. At least it negates the weight penalty.
As someone else mentioned, they need to change their market focus to DH. No climbing (no changing gears under power is just stupid), weight isn't as much of an issue while the suspension advantages and central weight would be very welcome.
www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems
600% RANGE - SICK
UNSPRUNG MASS (making the suspension track better) - RAD
NOT BREAKING DERAILLERS $$$ - DOPE
grip shift- SUCKS but we will let that slide (for NOW)
0.01% CHANCE TO DROP A CHAIN - GNARLY
The list goes on.......
lets just kill the derailleur NOW!
Always thought they were a bit of a white elephant, but is their real potential on DH/FR bikes or even E-bikes?
@Zerodeguy You have also done a great job at offering up an innovative solution to challenge the status quo, thank you for your ongoing passion for creating a better bike for the masses. I'm really looking forward to the evolution of gearbox bikes and what the future may look like. I can see a day when the gearbox bike will be offered with a motor assist option where you will choose to attach a 5lb motor and battery module to the bike and have a 40lb ebike or leave the motor/battery at home and ride it as a conventional bike. Something a bit like this www.facebook.com/zerodebikes/videos/1602126736523337 Watch this space!
Like the point made about the tensioner hanging down just like a derailleur. It's certainly not as vulnerable, but yeah, Metz you done f*cked up. Ya done f*cked it hard. If I need a tensioner of any sort then you've defeated much of the point of the box in the first place. You've lost the elegance, you've lost the reliability, because dropped chains still gonna hap now & it looks like shit. WTF dude? :s
Not a fault w/the bike but a trigger shifter needs to happen. How is it that the box looks so clean, modern, refined & that shitty grip shifter looks like a millwright made it on his break at work?
A bashguard? Also totally f*cks one of the big advantages of a box. Either run a good hollow pin/link BMX chain like a KMC 710SL or do it the right way & drop the size of the sprockets so the front one isn't below the box! Oh wait, ya done f*cked up the pivot location so that can't happen.
Other than that, the bike is pretty beast. Derailleur needs to die. Gearbox needs to happen. Props out for guys like Metz gettin' after it, but until the bike industry gets its own version of Elon Musk, the better way won't have the clout behind it to force the corrupt corporations to comply. Let's hope Boivin over at Resistance keeps up the fight because that mofe has got shit super dialed already. Make that shit into a trail bike & FAAACK!
Not sure why the Pinion can't shift under load, maybe they should go ask Bob Rohloff how to solve that if they can't fig it out themselves, but not shifting in battle is at least somewhat offset by the ability to do it preemptively. Ounce of prevention bitches.
Your cherry picked poll results about derailleur reliability Levy, really? When people say they don't remember when they last broke a derailleur, that doesn't automatically mean it was over 2 years just b/c the previous option was 'More than 2 years'. If you use 'em & ain't breakin' 'em, well then you probably wore lycra at some point in your life. Maybe still do.
You don't really have any right to almost incessantly complain about weight if for the same price the numbers can be brought down to where you'd want them to be anyway, which they can. :/ Plus just look at the inside of a gearbox, there's so much opportunity to make use of Ti in there (you know like how the 'Big Ss' have done w/cassettes, freehub bodies, pivot bolts, fasteners, etc.?) it's enough to probably cut weight (of box) nearly in half & at least w/a box, it may be pricey but it'll be a one time buy. Not to mention the rest of the abundant refinement waiting to happen on the design side.
You didn't mention anything about drag/friction in all that text (I suppose b/c you wasted so much time/space complaining about weight) which is far more important than the weight. The drag will matter to everyone. Adding a tensioner adds to the efficiency loss. If drag is severe enough to be noticeable, to feel it, all the more reason for gearbox guys to give Bob Rohloff a call.
When (if) gearbox refinement runs its course as the derailleur already did long ago, then I'd like to see anyone try to even begin to debate about a winner. If anyone had the advertising budget to put behind it, into places like PB, these articles & reviews would sound a bit different. :/
"Good review Mike!"
Is this the solution? That's what the engineers are for
Said it before...if mtb started with gearboxes we would be gushing over the possibility of derailleurs. different isn't always better.
I'm not commenting specifically on Pinion drag as I have never used one, but I owned several IGHs [Shimano & Rohloff] they did not have drag issues like that HS.
Think sluggishness is more to do with bad suspension..
btw how long before they attach an e-bike motor to one of these? Motor and transmission all-in-one?
get rid of pedals, add throttle kit, footpegs and foot shifter...see where i'm going?
that would be a pretty uncool direction for mtb but not sure what will stop it now...
NO. JUST NO. the HD4 is a worthless f*cking slug on climbs. I couldn't read past this blatant falsehood.
Please remember this comment when it comes time for you to review it, because you'll be the first one I contact to do so!
Thanks for a good, honest review, bike review, too.
p.s. [sarcasm may be turned back on] If one the the big S companies offers me million$ for the patent, you may be out of luck, though.
I thought single pivot didn't have one, or maybe its just to use a belt drive instead ?
giphy.com/gifs/reaction-BmmfETghGOPrW
So to answer my own question to you, you have not placed the order for one.
They are likely waiting for a better solution with less controversy to make the move towards gearboxes a safer bet.
Haven't ridden a plus bike, but I imagine there are tangible benefits.
Im pretty sure mountain biking would die with it when no one can afford bikes anymore.
Can these shift while pedaling, or do you still need to let off to make a change?
What do I know? I'm just a doofus
I can say it wasn as light on uphill as xc bike but maybe because it was build for dh/trail purpose.
Maybe Zerode should make an Ebike version of it to make it truly horrific.
A gearbox with a grip shift though???
Progression and digression at the same time...seriously figure it out pinion.
ZF,exactly my point
so you get screwed in the wallet and the saddle...nice!
And who says that you cannot shift a derailleur while coasting? You can easily do so and the second you restart pedaling you are in the gear you want!
This thing belongs on a e-bike! Forget pedaling the monster!!!!!!!!
2: You can't shit a conventional drivetrain under load either.
3:shifting and not getting into that gear is a great way to damage things once you start pedalling as you'll load up a linkplate and cause wear.
Welcome to 2018.