CyclingTips is reporting that Shimano has been granted two wireless communication applications that hint at cable-free transmission coming from the Japanese groupset giant sometime this year.
Shimano posted two applications late in January,
WY7-3GK1 for a rear derailleur and
WY7-927A for a wireless module (shifter). Unfortunately, the juiciest parts of the applications, including pictures of the components being approved, are hidden behind a confidentiality agreement between FCC (Federal Communications Commission) and Shimano but there's still plenty we can glean from the news.
What we already knowSo far, Shimano has never released a wireless groupset for on or off-road uses. Shimano made mountain biking's first foray into electronic shifting with Di2, a wired system that was first released at
XTR level in February 2015 with the XT version following up 22 months later in
November 2016. The system never massively took off and although it was
being raced by XC World Cup riders, you didn't often see it on many punters' bikes. This is backed up by the fact we're more than two years into the
current XTR's lifespan and it remains mechanical only.
The next big shakeup came in February 2019 when
SRAM released its wireless AXS system. SRAM had been supplying the wireless eTap drivetrain on road bikes for a number of years at this point but this was the first time fully wireless shifting had been brought to mountain bikes.
With SRAM way ahead on the cable-free front, it seems very likely that Shimano has been working on a project for a few years and we're becoming more and more convinced that Shimano is likely to drop some sort of wireless transmission this year. This is backed up by patents for both a wireless Dura Ace (road) groupset and
an electronic dropper post filed by Shimano in the past three months.
What can we tell from the application?As we said above, the confidentiality agreement between Shimano and the FCC prevents us from seeing exactly what's going on here, but there are still some clues scattered throughout. Firstly, the only things that are approved are a derailleur and a module. This crucially means no front derailleur and hints at the possibility this could be a wireless version of XTR and not a road groupet. Yes, some road bikes are now going down the 1x drivetrain route, but the pro riders have only dabbled with the setup and with limited success. We can't see Shimano launching what would be a top of the range product without racers showing it off at the highest level.
Other things to note are that both components work off the same frequency (2,478 Mhz) so are very likely part of the same product range. They also operate with both Bluetooth, which will most likely be used for software updates and setting control, and ANT+for communication between devices.
When can we expect more news?Well, the earliest we are guaranteed to know more is in 180 days from now (July 26), when the confidentiality agreement lifts between Shimano and the FCC. However, Cycling Tips are also speculating that something could come sooner. Shimano is celebrating its 100th anniversary in March 2021 and has been building up to it with
a series of videos and
a mini-site, with a countdown to... something. What better way to celebrate that anniversary with a product that takes it from a mechanical to wireless era?
Alternatively, if a new wireless XTR groupset is inbound, we've no doubt that Shimano supported racers will be testing it out between now and the race season. We'll be keeping a close eye on pro's bikes between now and the start of the season to see if we can spot anything out of the ordinary. We reached out to Shimano for more information but they told us that they, "keep tight-lipped on rumors and suggestions". We'll update you with more info as it comes in.
If they could sort the shitty clutch (or at least seal it properly at the back) and drop the Di3 to SLX level then I might come back, but keep my Sram brakes.
Weird about Shimano 12 speed mechs though. The clutch is the exact same part as was used since inception and I never had issues with it on 10 or 11 speed mechs. That's why I believe the issue is with sealing at the back, not the clutch itself.
This weekend I just rebuilt an M8000 RD and an M8120 RD. What is different is the exposure and wear on the plate axle. There was significant corrosion on the M8120 mech (3 months old) while the M8000 mech looked fine (3 years old). This is where I believe the 12s mech design is flawed. The "sticking" (inability to upshift, primarily out of the 51T) is, on a surface level, "solved" by loosening or fully turning off the clutch. The clutch however is not the culprit. The corrosion on the plate axle prevents the movement (page 35 of Shimano service doc DM-MARD001-03) and this of course increasing cassette and jockey wheel wear. Would love to hear other theories on the subject however.
That is the issue I had with mine. I ended up removing the cage and then oiling that spindle while spinning it on the end of a drill. It got better but it was still worse than a three year old m8000 or five year old Zee. Whether that is down to materials or sealing, I’m not sure. What I am sure about is that I don’t want another 12 speed Shimano mech.
I have a ZEE RD which also gets a bit sticky after a while, although it doesn't cause any noticeable issues when i'm actually riding the bike.
Also worth mentioning I spray my bike off a few times a week with residential water supply (4.5 bar), so shame on me. Not quite pressure washing, but .... yea.
To drivetrains.
I have a RD8000 that only shifts smoothly with the clutch turned down. It was like that from new, at first I thought I'd damaged a cable on assembly.
It's on a hardtail that gets an easylife so no clutch is no problem but it's still not really acceptable.
For me, the issue has been the clutch and not the seal with XT derailleurs. Have had several of them. I ride a lot and the grease just wears out. I'm a big fan of Shimano, the action of the shifting is excellent. However for drivetrains, SRAM has a slight edge for me. I haven't had any problems with SRAM derailleurs, except a little creaking at the pivots, but just a little cleaning and some light lubricant easily solves it.
@drc99 nice tips.
I don't have any reason to have faith in 12s deore or the newer brakes as I've been screwed on the last 2 iterations
Here is an instructional video www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztf38cO2Ej4&t
Deore = SX
SLX = NX
XT = GX
XTR = XO1.
XX1 no shimano equivalent.
Perhaps:
SX
Deore
NX
SLX
GX
XT
at the bottom of the scale. Also part by part there is variance. For example, the Sram top end cassette is definitely better than XTR, but the GX one is probably worse than XT. I mean, it’s not really a like for like comparison across the board.
Definitely unimpressed with Shimano 12 speed rear mechs though, SLX and XT. I’m keen to try GX even though I think the materials are of a lower quality. It would be nice if my gears just worked though. Having not used Sram since about 2013 I can’t objectively comment on it, but I do know that 12 speed Shimano has left something to be desired. 11 speed XT was a lot nicer in shifter feel and reliability.
I wouldn’t want SX or NX though. They are a lot more yuk than SLX.
Deore, SLX, NX and SX are all trash. They come on completes. Ride it until it falls apart and upgrade with something better but don’t actually buy it aftermarket unless it’s really cheap on chain reaction.
XX1 ~ XTR performance wise. Price wise XX1 >> XTR
GX SLX Performance wise. Price wise GX >>> XT
NX ~ Deore Performance wise. Price wise NX >= XT
X9 and lower ~ anything Deore or lower (Alivio) and cost of SRAM will be comparable with SLX or Deore components.
From what I see with riders on the trails, most if not all will have X01 or GX mixed SRAM drivetrains since most can't afford a bike with XX1 drivetrains or XX1 components even if you wanted the gold XX1 cassette and derailleur. You might see a few with XTR but quite a few with XT/SLX components. For people who ride a lot and do their own maintenance, it just makes sense to get Shimano since you can also get parts for the derailleur, rings for the cassettes, and small parts for practically any component. SRAM cassettes are like one piece and expensive as hell. The only thing you can replace on their derailleur is the jockey pulleys. Everything seems to be more expensive with SRAM. I know, some of my friends who thinks money grows on trees will always say price is THE best gauge for quality. I guess the more bling you wear, the better you feel.
Which is why I compare xt to x01 and xtr to xx1. As really the only difference in performance is weight.
Srams axs derailleur is on another level. I doubt shimanos will match it in robustness but rather be a wireless di2/hyper glide combo that simply shifts exceptionally well.
Both my XTR (XC race) and GX/XO1 (E29, started as GX only) bikes have been fine.
(I also find the Hyperglide to be mostly BS, it doesn't shift THAT much better).
Oh well, I am keeping the XTR since I don't also want to put on a new hub to go to XX1. Too much work for too little gain.
I admit, I like to try new stuff and also am a bit of an MTB fashion whore. I was fine with 11-46 for years so I don't strictly need more now.
I’ve replaced 7 shimano callipers in two years because the pistons have started leaking over the pads. I have to bleed my shimano brakes all the tile to stop the random bite point issue. I had it yesterday. Pulled the back brake coming into a chute and it locked up instantly and nearly took me out.
1) Clean the caliper pistons
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tbsfQp3EaU
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQXFFgRButo (Park Tool Tech Tuesday)
2) Clean/overhaul the master cylinder lever piston
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z43tGeGkYec&feature=emb_rel_end
For #1 - the brake fluid gets black if the caliper pistons are dirty. When you push the caliper pistons back in, it'll contaminate the brake fluid. So, you'll have to flush out the contaminants quite frequently. But if you clean these caliper pistons regularly, the fluids should last longer.
For #2 - this is done probably not as much but probably an annual maintenance to prevent fine dust particles from ruining the rubber seals in the master cylinder chamber. You can get parts for these on AliExpress. But if this is well maintained, you'll like not experience any wondering bite point issue. Surprisingly, ALL of Shimano hydraulic brakes from XTR through SLX use the same or similar master cylinder pistons (plastic) and seals. The reason for the plastic piston is probably so that when the silicone grease wears out, the plastic won't scratch up the inside of the master cylinder.
The clutch can become sticky when really dry, unsurprisingly. It's a combination of a lack of maintenance and/or over washing the bike.
Maintain it as you said and it will work as planned.
And as a side note, do not fall in that trend of over washing your bike and ruin bearings and bushings faster along the way.
The need frequent maintenance. Well above what was needed in the past.
I love that I am getting down votes on these posts - die hard Shimano fan bois who know nothing. If you have access to the Shimano S-Tech forms (i.e. you are a mechanic who is connected to Shimano) you'll see that there are plenty reports of this issue. Many people are experiencing it, and it is not acceptable.
Shimano has silently released an upgrade kit, and would suggest to you that you need to over-maintenance these pats. No thanks. I've been a die hard Shimano customer until this fiasco by the way.
Pretty interesting. Thanks for the info:
What is this upgrade kit? A new seal for the housing?
Have you talked about the other problems like the spring in the XT and XTR shifters that keeps breaking?
Imagine you have a Golf and run it for 100,000 miles with ten oil changes total. Then you get another Golf and it needs oil changes every 500 miles, but VW doesn't tell you when you purchase it. I imagine it would lead to a lot of failures.
I still think some people here blow this way out of proportion tho, yes doing the clutch service every 2-3 months is annoying and probably would be unnecessary with a better seal, but I think it's an overreaction, to say the whole product is crap. For reference I do a lot of wet (even salty) rides too and by far don't have such short service intervals as some people here claim.
Anyway, I am mad keen to try AXS mostly for the clean bar. I wonder when that will drop and more importantly what it will cost.
I agree. Every 12s system being more completed, with tighter tolerances, longer cages etc is more finicky than 11s'.
I found the XT 11s is ridiculously durable.
To be fair and from what I see at the shop, I'm not sure most people need 12s. If the average rider use 8-9 of them regularly, that's better than I expect.
Most people would benefit about having a smaller chainring instead of changing the whole system and adding complexity to an aleady complex part.
The older 11 speed derailleurs are superior to the 12 speed versions. People need to continue to discuss this as it really deserves more attention.
Yeah x7’s absolutely sucked complete garbage that wasn’t fit for purpose.
Shimano used to have a 12 or even 13 tooth smallest sprocket. Suntour dropped the Micro Drive systems to 11t and made the crankset smaller as well - kind of what you are describing Seek and Destroy. That was back in the day before Sram existed.
I haven't personally tried it, but next time I fully bleed my brakes I will!
I’d prefer 10-42 though. Or 11-42 and no micro spline.
The only problem is that bike manufacturers have optimized antisquat for a 32 tooth chainring because everyone is running 50+ tooth cassettes now. For a 9-42 you need a 28 tooth chainring, which would give you way too much antisquat and chaingrowth on modern frames.
One up used to offer an aftermarket cage to go to 42 with saint. Wish it was still made.
10 speed deore is an option, but I’m a bit worried the derailleur won’t be as dh friendly as the zee and they’ve been on back order for months. I bought 3 zee derailleur/cassette backups and called it a day.
Hoping the zee fr gets an update. A bit more range to 42 and the hyper glide tech.
Not sure about 11 speed.
I have a zee crankset so can’t go lower than 34 chainring. It’s fine though cause it’s on a hardtail and I just stand up when climbing most the time anyways.
@onemind123: HG12 seems to require more cable tension than 11. I reset with metal ferrules and lubed der pivots. Still doesn't have the satisfying crack of an 11 upshift. I'm not at all certain the 1x wars are good for consumers
-Every Pinkbike comment ever
But if you are super weight focused, there is no getting around them being heavier than many of the competition. For me however, the benefits outstrip the weight differential.
Shimano says the moisture is entering by the on/off switch lever shaft, not the rubber seal or rubber access port.
The kit consists of new lever(probably with a better seal on it) & clutch mech, I believe.
Does the kit have a part number?
Also I wonder if a new derailleur comes with the updated lever.
wheelbased.com/2021/01/11/bicycle-electric-telescopic-apparatus-power-supply-and-electric-component-by-shimano
www.bikeradar.com/news/shimano-gearbox
The only place to go from Code RSCs is Trickstuff Maximas. I'll be honest - I'd happily pay the outrageous premium if it didn't also come with an 18 month lead-time. You can have my money or my patience, but not both.
Gives the latest PB podcast title of decoding suspension a whole new meaning. Cheeky of SRAM as it was submitted just days after the podcast was released. Coincidence?
I mean we're mountain bikers and therefore nature lovers, right ? Don't we want to preverve it ?
I have had the wandering bite point before, we will see if these new ones act up. Just did a 50+ mile ride and didn't have any issues so fingers crossed!
I am digging Eagle, although it seems a bit more finicky than Shimano XT. Haven't tried Shimano 12 speed yet.
But yeah, you probably know what's best.
Lol good joke
e-late
di3 or die-die-die!
SXS " pronounced "sex" becasue AXS isn;t " A " " X" " S" either
It makes me wonder, has Shimano ever had a product line that DIDNT trickle down to cheaper price points?
Enjoy your subaru bro. I'm glad you like it.
It's not german production. This isn't 1875 anymore. It's all china or tiwan