Review: Shimano's All-New XT 4-Piston Brakes
While XTR gets a lot of us excited, it's Shimano's XT that makes a lot more sense when you do the cost to performance calculation. The Japanese giant released their 12-speed XT M8100 drivetrain a few months ago, and they've also reworked their XT brake for 2019, with both two- and four-piston offerings operated by the same lever and master cylinder assembly.
It's the all-mountain and trail-focused four-piston stopper with a $209.99 USD price tag that's reviewed here, and I also put it up against its main rival, SRAM's G2 RSC.
It's the all-mountain and trail-focused four-piston stopper with a $209.99 USD price tag that's reviewed here, and I also put it up against its main rival, SRAM's G2 RSC.
XT M8120 4-Piston Brake Details
• Intended use: all-mountain / trail
• Four-piston caliper
• Adjustable reach, free stroke
• Servowave actuation
• Mineral oil
• Weight: 301-grams (front, w/o rotor)
• MSRP: $209.99 USD (lever/ caliper) $52.99 USD (rotor)
• More info: www.shimano.com
• Intended use: all-mountain / trail
• Four-piston caliper
• Adjustable reach, free stroke
• Servowave actuation
• Mineral oil
• Weight: 301-grams (front, w/o rotor)
• MSRP: $209.99 USD (lever/ caliper) $52.99 USD (rotor)
• More info: www.shimano.com
The new four-piston XT caliper is much sleeker than the previous version.
The Details
Shimano has had a four-piston brake in their XT lineup for a while now, and the calipers are using ceramic pistons that are home to the same finned, metallic pads. The updates are cosmetic and external down at this end, with a new finish, smooth edges, and inboard banjo routing that gives it a sleeker appearance. In fact, it almost looks XTR-ish at first glance, which wasn't by accident.
No big news with the calipers, then, but there are some notable changes up top. Shimano has completely redesigned the perch, with a hinged clamp that also grabs the shifter and a flex-busting outboard support that butts up against your handlebar. First used on XTR, the idea is to make the whole assembly stiffer so that the brake levers feel firmer when you're really squeezing 'em.
The lever's shaped has been tweaked a bit as well; it's now a bit taller and a bit flatter.
You'll still find the Servowave linkage (pictured to the right) hidden behind the lever blade, though. Here's the idea, according to Shimano: ''When you pull a Servowave brake lever, initial pad travel is fast, so little lever movement is needed to bring the pads into contact with the rotor. The power multiplication factor then increases rapidly at the pad-to-rim contact so more of the lever stroke is used to apply greater braking power with improved control.''
On top of that, Servowave is probably the most polarizing feature of Shimano's brakes (despite often not being mentioned at all) because of the lever feel it provides - more effort is required initially before it tapers off later in the lever's throw.
On top of that, Servowave is probably the most polarizing feature of Shimano's brakes (despite often not being mentioned at all) because of the lever feel it provides - more effort is required initially before it tapers off later in the lever's throw.
The Freeza rotors (left) are Centerlock-only, and I used their six-bolt rotors instead.
XT also gets Shimano's $52.99 USD Freeza Centerlock-only rotors, previously only seen on the pricier XTR brakes. Heat is a brake's worst enemy, and the rotor uses an aluminum core that's sandwiched between two pieces of stainless steel, with the core also extending down below the brake track to help it cool off. The only thing missing that you'll find on the XTR rotor is the fancy heat-dissipating black paint that's probably not noticeable anyway.
I tested these XT brakes on a bike that used six-bolt hubs, so I ended up with conventional rotors instead.
The hinged clamp is I-Spec compatible, and an extension butts up against the handlebar to brace the outboard end of the perch.
When it comes to adjustments, the same relatively large plastic dial can be found on the lever to change the reach, and Shimano is still insisting that the small Phillips screw alters the amount of free stroke. If you've ever turned this screw on their previous brakes, you probably already know that it does diddly squat; maybe it's functioning on the new XT brake, though...?
It's also worth noting that the SLX brake (minus the rotor) is essentially identical to XT, plus 11-grams and minus the non-functioning free stroke screw and some finishing details - it retails for $174.99 USD. Just sayin'.
How'd They Perform?
If you've used Shimano's brakes in the past, and especially if you've been able to compare them to other offerings, you already know the gist of it: Plenty of power that starts with a relatively firm grab, and that power doesn't go anywhere, either.
It's the same story with the new XT stoppers, too. The initial grab will still feel a bit acute to some, especially if traction is iffy, but those who love that leave-no-doubt first grab will also love that about the new XTs. Rider weight and terrain play a part in that sort of feedback, though, and lighter riders like myself might benefit from down-sizing the rear rotor, if not both.
All the power and none of the fade - the XT brakes have enough bite for anyone.
The first few millimeters of free lever travel is slightly stiffer before the pads hit the rotor and the Servowave changes the leverage, at which point the lever is slightly easier to pull. This is all squeezed into the first half of the brake lever's travel, and not something you're thinking about on the trail. The advantage, according to Shimano, is how the ''...power multiplication factor then increases rapidly at the pad-to-rim contact so more of the lever stroke is used to apply greater braking power with improved control.'' It's also a big factor in giving Shimano's brakes their, er, Shimano-y feel.
In fact, I've seen some high-profile Shimano-sponsored racers running the non-Servowave XTR lever (combined with a four-piston caliper) because it feels more traditional.
With four pistons and Shimano's name on them, you know these things are powerful. Those trails that are just the right combination of steep, fast, and rough to have you eventually looking for a reason to take a breather? Yeah, you're not going to be able to blame your new XT brakes as they refused to fade during my time on them.
I'll tell you what did change, though: The free stroke. It wasn't the wildly varying bite point of those troublesome Shimano brakes of a few years ago, but it would slowly move in towards the grip over a few thousand feet of descending. And yes, I'm completely aware of the irony of me moaning about the non-existent ''free stroke adjustment" earlier on only to have the free stroke change on its own during use.
Despite the free stroke increasing by roughly 50-percent during long descents, power was completely unaffected. So yeah, I could still do skids at the end of my runs, but I just had to pull the lever a lot farther.
Despite the free stroke increasing by roughly 50-percent during long descents, power was completely unaffected. So yeah, I could still do skids at the end of my runs, but I just had to pull the lever a lot farther.
Can you see the small Phillips screw that adjusts the brake's free stroke? Me neither.
Attention Shimano: An adjustable bite point, adjustable free stroke, or whatever else you want to call it, is needed on your high-end brakes. Sure, you can change the free stroke by advancing the pistons, but I want to be able to easily make my brakes feel exactly how I want them, not how you guys think they should feel. I suspect that you're not listening, though, as everyone else has been saying that for years now.
The new lever blade (left) is a bit taller and flatter, but it felt the same to me. Shimano's brakes all have this silly release button (right) that you need to depress to open the clamp. It's a pain in the ass to deal with.
Cage Match: Shimano XT versus SRAM G2 RSC
SRAM's equally new G2 brake, and particularly the $180 USD four-piston G2 RSC, has to be considered the XT's main competitor. Both brands talk abut improved rigidity (via the caliper with SRAM, and the perch with Shimano), but if you're comparing bullet points, it sure looks like the G2 RSC comes out on top. It offers an effective free stroke adjustment, weighs less, and manages to cost less to boot. Bullet points are for the sales floor, though. How do they compare on the trail?
SRAM's $180 G2 RSC (left) and Shimano's $209.99 USD XT are both four-piston brakes intended for all-mountain and trail bike duty.
Despite them being new (or at least heavily revised) models, you'd all still easily be able to tell which is which in a blind test. Both the XT and the G2 had perfect bleeds and a solid feel at the lever, but the XT's perch design gives it a bit more support. That said, it's not like we were complaining about flexy brake perches a few years back. What does matter is the feel at the lever, and while it might not be all the exciting, the XT still feels exactly like a Shimano brake and the G2 feels exactly like, you guessed it, a SRAM brake.
The G2 still has a gentler, far more controllable initial bite compared to the XT, but a heavier rider might feel that as less initial power. I've racked up a bunch of 3,000-foot descents on both models and the G2's bite point has been 100-percent consistent during all of them, although I can't say the same about the power - it trails off a touch when you're really leaning on them for extended periods of time. Conversely, the new XTs never blinked in the power department, but the bite point would slowly work its way in during long descents.
If I had to choose which brake to use as a 160lb rider who prefers mid-travel bikes, the easily controlled power delivery of the G2 wins in my mind.
Pros
+ All the power
+ Firm lever feel
Cons
- Bite point worked its way in
- Free stroke isn't actually adjustable
Pinkbike's Take:
 | Shimano's XT brakes are the workhorse stoppers of their component range, and the newest version offers tons of power and the same firm lever feel that their brakes are known for. Even so, it's hard not to choose the new four-piston SLX brake that forgoes the non-functioning free stroke adjust instead - they're $35 USD less per end, the rotors are $23 less per end, and they only weigh 34-grams more per end. |
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I solved it by selling them on
I was under the impression that Shimano stuff just 'works', but doesn't give you any feel. I see tons of moaning over Sram offerings as well. It seems as though there's something wrong with everything on the market.
I really don't understand people's confusion over the freestroke screws also, industry people like Levy especially. Turn the screw on one brake out, watch the lever as you do it and stop when the lever stops moving, then feel the difference between your two brakes' lever throws. Tightening the screw slightly pre-squeezes the lever. OK it's a subtle thing but it does make a difference. I like to top up my oil with the screw backed out and then tighten it up afterwards. Replaced the blanking screws in my Zees with hex grub screws to make it easier - just be sure to stop tightening when you feel a little resistance or you'll break the internal mechanism.
My problem with Zees at least is sticky pistons after they are a few months old - I clean and lube with the recommended grease every pad change but then at the next pad change you can see one side has advanced more than the other. When it gets really bad I have to realign my caliper after every couple of big rides, or clean/lube/reset pistons before the pads have worn out.
Might try Cura 4s next if they are an OK price when my current Zees are done but Zees are cheap and it's the feel that I know and like.
Sane here. On E4s now
The current MT501 might offer the greatest stopping power per $ on the market at the moment. I had no chance to ride one of the tektro orion 4p so far.... but they are mostly OEM only, so hard to get. the may be even cheaper with a similar stopping performance.
I run TRP on all bikes (including cable Spyres on my road/gravel bike). They use standard Shimano pads, the newer ones are easy to bleed and they have modulation for days.
@sooner518 I'm with you - I have non-SRAM/Shimano brakes and my buddy's at the shop clearly have never heard of the internet (which happens to have lots of pads available for two day shipping...)
Too many tiny parts, complication, and tolerances. Just my 2c on it
I changed to turn after becoming fed up with my saints.
So I have a weird setup I managed to strip the threads on my xt brake lever. But with a Piccola on the way I didn't want to invest money so I bought the cheapest lever the Shimano mt200 for $13.
So on one side I have the most expensive lever and the other the cheapest.
The piccolo has has all the power I need more then my xt m8000 but is the lightest in the world. No downside really.
On the other side I have to say the mt200 lever blows away the xt lever. It just feels proper with no wandering bite point.
Shimano need to move on from servowave it's garbage.
Up until Shimano banned German shops from selling to Canadians Shimano was had so cheap it was disposable.
Looking at Cura brakes next.
Sold those bikes and my next bike had xt m785 with the really annoying bite point issue (except when these were new no-one was really talking about it so everyone thought I was bad at bleeding).
Next bike had Guide RS which would lock up when the weather outside was above 80F.
Replaced those with hope v4s, which were fine but a little underpowered. Biggest issue there was they really don't like being positioned upside down (trail side repair... Fixed a chain issue and suddenly have no brakes right before the dh)
Next brakes were Magura 4 pots. These have been great and I love the new one finger levers.
I also recently put the new deore 4 pots on my other bike, and unlike my old xt's(and apparently new as well) these have not had bite point issues.
I never had issue with Hayes brake performance from '01 - '11, only problem was the lack of threads on the bleed attachment system. Those hoses always popped out during bleeds!
If you haven't already then do yourself a favor and buy 4 of the MT7 style pad pins and run MT7 pads. They're so much easier to change then the stupidly designed MT5 type and I think the brakes feel better too. That might be my imagination or I could chalk it up to the TruckerCo pads I got. Either way convenience wins.
I'm running Codes. I ran Guides. I love the modulation and i love the bleeding process. I'm not buying anything else.
We bled them under an awning in the parking lot in a torrential downpour. Nailed the bleed the first go. They are the best feeling, engaging, bite point, stopping brakes I have been on to date. I thought the bleed was actually much easier than Sram's (2012-2017 Codes prior).
Wish the pad contact adjust actually did something though like the Codes (so far it feels like it's just a knob to turn)
So excruciatingly close SRAM. Charge $1 more and there'd be a $28.99 difference.
I love them
Though on the other hand it's not only the lever to bar metric that is key here, lever position plays a role as well since reach adjustment moves the whole lever away from the initial cam. So the system works as it works, regardless of the blade position, but your theory works for long reach values (lever far away from bar), where the lever would still actually go almost to the bar.
To achieve that you would need either a moved timing port from the reservoir (to engage the master cylinder later in the travel) or some sort of a compensator to fill with oil in order to move the master cylinder further away without moving the pistons in the caliper...
EDIT: i was thinking about it while i was writing the post, that's why it's a bit all over the place.
Like an Ak47 over a m16.
I’m not pro enough to have my contact point tolerance within 1mm.
Lots of other bike issues to deal with.
@Primoz:
That being said, I took a pretty hard tree to the lever body impact and it held fine.
The bleed port screw though, I don't understand. Magura could have thrown an insert into the lever body and used an alloy screw at the least.
Either way, there is an o ring on the bleed screw. That is what does the sealing, not how tight the screw is. Once I feel that plastic screw start to resist easy turning, I stop there. So far so good. Didn't even look at the torque specs because most torque wrenches are only accurate to +/-15-20% anyway, which could put you over the top for stripping
After all, in cars, where DOT fluid is used as well, you have to change the fluid when there is enough water content in it to decrease the boiling point to an unsafe level. Nobody says anything about a 'worn out fluid'. Though mineral oil does have a lower resistance to temperature
These people would moan if their arses were on fire and moan if you put it out.
No. HELL NO. Shimano has to have an effective bite point adjustment that only requires you to turn a dial on the trail. Until then, their brakes simply aren't as good as some others on the market, especially considering the wandering bite point. Mountain bike brakes can be such a joke in how inconsistent they are.
No, most of these people, save some lunatics are not saying everything is better than Shimano and they never had a problem with other brakes, they are saying XT fricking 8000 have variable bite point whatever you do with them and most brakes out there do not need such frequent bleeds and shenneningans to put them straight.
Are you capable of taking that on board?
Brakes like SRAM guide and Level used to be a disaster, and SRAM even remade the master cylinder kit and admitted some things were sht. However just like in case of Shimano, there were some people in denial using EXACTLY same arguments as Shimano defenders here. In most cases “you need to bleed them properly”.
You can also read opinions of folks saying brakes like Maguras or Formulas never failed them meaning, these brakes are stellar. Which is a BS
So Mike Levys comment: any brakes can go to sht and some go to sht more often than others, is at least to me, more than true. The only people who seem to never have problems with their brakes, or very little, and it is a very common thread throughout the internet and reality reports by bike mechanics are owners of Hopes.
youtu.be/D0uSTtDWbI8
Do you know what is pretty blatant? The fact that people will believe what they want to believe, no matter what the facts are.
Their marketing descriptions certainly contradict what you are saying about the purpose of the screw and dial. You state that Shimanos work opposite to Sram, when their own descriptions indicate they are intended to work in the same manner as Sram, as you can see here:
bike.shimano.com/en-NZ/technologies/component/details/free-stroke.html
bike.shimano.com/en-NZ/technologies/component/details/reach-adjust.html
Having said all that, and on further consideration, I can kind of see a method to this madness of which you speak. The main problem I see is, how much actual range of resting point "psudo reach" adjustment can you achieve by turning the free-stroke screw? I don't have my brakes here to test, but I seem to remember it is a tiny fraction of the range available with the reach-adjust dial.
I also think it is important to note that if your (via The Path) suggestion works, it is not because of some fundamental misunderstanding of the intended function of the brakes on the part of shops and end users. It is actually that Shimano inadvertently designed a brake with 2 adjustments that have some degree of cross-talk between them, and the adjustments become more functional if you use them in the opposite manner than Shimano originally intended. That would be a happy accident for all of the frustrated users who want functional free-stroke adjustment, but also a colossal f-up by Shimano. Perhaps I am misreading what you wrote, but it sounds like you are under the impression that your method is the Shimano suggested and approved one.
The free stroke doesnt have a lot of range, but it does have some.
Also, the wandering bite point isn't a bleed issue FYI.
1. Shimano doesn't anodize their master cylinder body after boring them out, so the ID of the MC wears, leading to a sloppy fit with the piston, and allowing air in. Many other brands apparently do anodize the interior, so the surface is more wear and corrosion resistant.
2. There have been a number of reports of cracked ceramic pistons, again leading to a gap with the seal, this time in the caliper, and again letting air in.
3. I have seen the claim that mineral oil intrinsically has more dissolved air and/or micro bubbles than DOT fluid, which will gradually work its way up to the lever, again leading to bubbles in what seemed like a perfectly bled system. Removing that air would require de-gassing under a proper vacuum before bleeding (not the half-measure de-gas in a syringe that Sram suggested, as the syringes can't generate much of a vac and often let more air in the seals).
Thanks for the info
I think Guide Rs gave Sram the bad name.
I lost count of how many shirts, pants and shoes I've stained over the last few years with mineral oil because of hoses slipping off shimano's crappy bleed nipples, whereas the use of a sram professional kit ( especially with a bleeding edge brake) is almost completely spill free. For sure the procedure is more complicated and the tools are more expensive, but if done the right way its just as easy and done in almost no time. Same with bleeding a fox fit vs. A rs charger cartridge...
"how many pants I've stained over the last few years"
That reads slightly different than intended to us UK readers! Haha
Who in their right frame of mind would want to bleed brakes this way??? With two syringes you can actually create a vacuum in the brake system, de-air the oil in it and pull the bubbles out. My factory Code RSC bleed was apparently very aireated and the brake felt very Sram like. When doing the first proper bleed after experiencing some slight fade i pulled tons of air out of it (i think there were no bubbles in the system) and the brake actually felt too stiff, kinda like old Shimanos, too on/off.
Dual syringes > funnel.
I don't think this accounts for wandering bite point though. The way Sram's contact adjust works it seems apparent to me that Shimano's wandering bite point and negligible free stroke adjust point at an issue with the lever and their "timing port", or how the system seals itself from air once you activate the lever.
All that being said I have had several Shimano brakes, SLX, Zee, XTR, and even the no name numbered only's that come as OEM that worked very well and that I still miss to this day.
Get a strong dish detergent, something that says it's good at de-greasing, and rub it into the stain on the shirt. Make sure it's wet first so the soap suds up and then rubs into a white paste. Then throw it into the was on warm (careful to not let it shrink) and this has worked 9/10 times for me. Even worked for engine grease working on the car
Luck of the draw I guess.
I have a sneaking suspicion that most people with problematic Guides run Rs, because i have heard most negative comments (in person) for them, while i have heard almost nothing but praise for the RS and RSC.
I think the swing link is the key here.
That being said, the Codes are unbelievably nice and reliable. They really should never have made Guides (g2 is them trying to make Guides like Codes without the larger reservoir) . The weight is negligible and the power control on Codes is awesome. You get more power than an XT but WAY more control, especially early in the lever throw. It's the ideal brake
I have Guide Ultimates, Level TLMs, and Code RSCs, and they've been perfect. I have friends with those brakes and they've said they have been perfect. As they should be, because they're at the top of their respective food chains. I've had a Guide RS brakeset that would malfunction when they weather got too warm. It'd either get squishy, or seem to seize up. I've been lucky with my XTs as they don't have a wandering bite point...yet.
If manufacturers engineered from the bottom up instead of from the top down, we'd all have better brakes.
@mikelevy
youtu.be/D0uSTtDWbI8
Honestly, we shouldn't need to do that at all. There has to be one dial that you turn with your fingers that JUST WORKS. I just want them to be consistent and easy to adjust, that's all
The guides never faded.
To be fair this was a chute more than a trail, but the second I started carving, pushing that rear wheel with my outside foot...nada from the Zees.
Same here actually.
My opinion of sram brakes has improved, but I still prefer shimano...
So, the bite point is wandering ... would be interesting how much ... did you possibly measure the difference in travel?
And, the most important question for me (because almost all my old shimano brakes did this): did the bite point ever wander to the outside when you repeatedly pulled the lever on harder descents?
Thanks in advance for your replies :-)
It happened consistently while braking though, and letting go of the levers (at a convenient time, preferably when the brakes were not needed) usually reset them to the original bite point.
I've got one brake on my XC bike and the other is on my girlfriends trail hardtail.
www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=140344&pagenum=1
Has anyone used Magura Royal Blood in Shimanos? If so is it better that the Shimano oil?
I tried Magura Royal Blood in a set of Zee brakes. Same as the Putoline stuff above 10°C. Below that temperature the lever began wandering again. Below 0°C the wandering became much worse. At around -5°C and on a steep decent with constant braking I lost all free stroke at one point.
Which likely means Magura Royal Blood changes its viscosity more at different temperatures than Shimano mineral oil.
General consensus on the bite point wandering with Shimano brakes is that the diameter of one port in the brake lever is too small and the fluid cannot go back into the reservoir quickly enough. So it makes sense that less viscous fluids work better.
The Putoline stuff is a motorcycle fork oil, rated 2.5W, I think. 'Good' fork oils are made so they (almost) do not change their viscosity in different temperatures. Which is a good trait for brake fluids that need to go through tiny ports.
Putoline hpx 2,5 and it actually works really well, esp. in the winter.
But it only works if you have a certain failure mode: pull lever quickly a couple of times and bite point moves outwards (away from bar). Everything else is poor bleed or other failure..
i highly doubt that, density goes down and viscosity goes down with rising tempeatures and vice versa in 99.9% of all liquids, the only exeption i can think of right now is water. (with the highest density around 4°C)
And the usual behaviour is actually quite logical, because heat is nothing more then molecules moving / oszillating faster, wich leads to weaker/shorter attractive forces between the molecules and thereby reducing density and viscosity.
Water does weird things because it's an angled dipole and very polar, mineral oil has no such properties
If the pad contact point truly changed during a ride, no pro riders would use it, because no matter how much money you're getting, you're not going to be fast on brakes that don't inspire confidence.
With the plastic brake lever i meant the whole master cylinder assembly, didn't mean the lever itself.
On the other hand i've seen a guy finisht he Mega qually with a bent lever mount of the Guides this year. We were wondering what the hell is wrong with his lever to start biting so soon. Then i saw that the reservoir is parallel to the bar instead of pointing away.
He did the main race with a bend (and wedged to make it fit) lever body.
The Shimano Free Stroke adjustment works. I've measured it using a caliper, and the bite point does change. As stated already, you need to bleed the system with the screw all the way out.
However...and this is a big however...the Shimano free stroke adjustment ALSO changes the reach at the same time. This is a huge flaw in the design. And I believe this is why most reviewers believe that the screw makes no changes, because the change in reach (minor, but measurable) mitigates some of the "squeeze the lever" feel test.
Other brands' bite-point/free-stroke adjustments to NOT change the lever reach. This is the way this adjustment should be designed.
Also, I find the range of adjustment of the free stroke to be very limited. The SRAM's range of bite-point adjust is much greater, and therfore much easier to perceive as "working" over the Shimano's. Shimano is really for very fine-tuning to make left and right match, if the bleed is just a little off. It isn't there to actually allow a rider to adjust the bite point to their personal preference.
I'm extremely happy with my TRP Quadiems. The main thing, is they never, ever seem to change the lever feel. I've done days with ~7k ft descending (bike park), and they felt the same every single run. No noise, no wandering bite point, no fading, nothing seemed to phase them.
The fact that they don't seem to change, means I don't have to think about them. They just seem to work, and yet always have more than enough power on tap. Thats high praise IMO. It lets me focus on riding
Is this a press release from 1989 or 2019?
edit: oops I wasn't first with the reply
The only frankenbrake i can see the point of is Trickstuff lever with Magura caliper to save money on the ridiculously expensive Trickstuff parts.
The hc3 levers have a lower mechanical advantage over the standard.
But like you say shigura still has wondering bite point so the issue is definitely in the lever.
I was reading this review purely to see if it has been resolved. I think the jury is still out on that.
like you i came from the 2pot XTs and they needed literally zero attention in my 2 years with them, not even a bleed. they did have that wandering bite point on very long descents. the 4pot ones so far have not shown this and i'm very happy with them.
i also had the old Codes (very good), Elixir 5s (very bad), the predecessor of the 8000 XTs (meh) and Saints (very good) so I'm impartial to the brands as such, but i have had better experiences with the Shimano brakes lately.
With that said, I'm now on Code RSC's after Guide R and RS's. I actually like the feel of the newer style SRAM brakes, and had nothing but issues with Shimano (leaking pistons, and blown gaskets in the lever on 2 different sets).
@mikelee i hadn't seen a recall, i thought SRAM were trying to deny the issue last i checked albeit it over a year ago. If my Guide R's don't work out i'll likely try a different brand all together. The trouble is you can't try before you buy in most cases and bike parts aren't cheap!
I’ve a pair of Saint M820 on my Enduro bike who replaced a pair of old XT with 2 pistons.
The free stroke screw hasn’t any kind of control/function.
With Motorex mineral oil and a correct bleeding i’ve found my ideal brake system..
No DOT for me
Please stop pretending to be stupid in order to perpetuate bullshit conspiracy theories.
The Bite Point Adjust certainly does work, it's just a bit counter-intuitive how to set it up compared to other brake designs. So either you're too stupid to read the directions and set it up correctly, or you're pretending to be stupid so you have something to add to the "cons" column.
I did notice it has too much free-play on the initial lever pull, so I dialed the lever until the bite point is further out from the bars. On some downhill techy sections I single finger the lever just before the bite point, so I can dab it. Not ideal but whatever. It's a good enough 4-piston brake with enough power to hold me over until I get a 29er.
Always some air in the resvoir and the port is open when the lever isn't pressed in.
The Codes are still going strong and I've had no real wish to install the MT5s so far... I'm sure the time will come, but the Codes have been a really good surprise!
I ditched Shimano after the last XT debacle, and stuffing with a set of ZEEs that were just never right out of the box and no bleeds or pads could improve.
I heard that YT don't re-bleed the rear after cutting the hose for installation, so it always needs to be done sooner or later.
From you question, I unsure if that is really new info for you, or if you already know what I just explained, and just have found the automatic compensation falls short and you need to fall back on manual adjustment in the real world.
same story with all the shimano brakes that have the secure type screw.(snake eye screw) like the zees for example.
You say the brakes feel shimano-y but do little to describe that feel. What if I've never ridden a shimano brake? From this review I'd think the lever was first really stiff, then suddenly you get loads of brake power, and then it's load more really easily with out control. Not at all how I'd describe any shimano brake in character. They have a light action with q clear engagement point that can be felt at the lever and with a reassuring initial bite.
If so, i'd like to know your impressions.
Right now i'm trying sixpack pads (bc they're cheap and available), but those pads (organic and semimetall) have horrible fading in the first run. At least i hope it's only in the first run...
I had some trouble with the adapters, the calipers are huge - a file solved that problem
Before i was running guides with a code caliper in the front, using srams matchmaker x system. With the Dominion i wasn't able to place the shifters where i wanted them. And since the hayes peacemaker are unobtainium i tried srams old matchmaker and with the help of a file those work quite well at a quarter of the price.
positive: nice feeling, solid brake with lots of modulation and power, awesome reach adjust (i run my levers very close to the bar, no need to worry), looks extremly butch - almost like a moto brake
cons: very rare and exotic in europe, especially mounting hardware and adapters, lots of McGyver style solutions needed (at least for me) to my knowledge no great aftermarket pads available
And the bronze colour is somewhat fugly, but after a while you stop noticing xD
I'm running a Shimano drivetrain so I don't need the peacemaker. My bike doesn't require adapters for the 180mm rotors I use either, so non of those are issues for me. I have heard that Hayes group products in Europe are in need of a good distributor. That's not an issue in the USA, they sell direct for most parts and have a few websites that keep pretty much everything in stock.
I'm in the minority on thinking the bronze color looks good. But my bike is pretty fugly already with a mix of random bright colored parts, so I'm probably not the best person to judge looks ????
But for the most time i don't care, because i'm not looking at my calipers while riding.
Anyway, in my opinion these brakes need more recognition. If you want something that works great and maybe stands out a bit, you should consider these. I guess i am a bit into unusual things, riding a Formula Selva fork aswell
youtu.be/D0uSTtDWbI8
Maybe he has the only set that works?!?
And all new ispec is kinda useless
Buy HOPE,you have brakes.
The second complaint is that if you like to have your levers relatively closer to the bar, the lever throw will increase. So the best braking you'll get is if your levers are far away from the bars (which I hate), and if you like them closer you have to have rotor/pistons aligned perfectly otherwise the lever will just come to the bars if you brake hard.
Also the funnel bleed in my opinion as some other poster said is actually much more messier and less efficient (doesn't create a vacuum to pull out bubbles behind pistons which is a huge issue on big brakes) than those sram pro bleed kit which I've used on my guide RSes.
What I wanted to point out is that V4s are powerful only if they're set perfect. And that "perfect" setup is in my experience very hard to get and doesn't last long. So you have to compensate somewhat with higher reach numbers and you'll get long lever travel (some people think that this is "modulation", which it isn't). As said, I've never managed to have all four pistons to move at the same time, and I'm no stranger to properly servicing equipment and I've followed official guides on how to do that.
That said, if I were in a market for new brakes I would certainly go for Code RSC or Dominions. I definitely like the small but useful features on the latter (bleed screws on ends of calipers, very fine caliper centering etc). I don't have a professional mechanic setting my stuff so I really value if something is easily user serviceable.
I must say this.
It’s a fail safe on a component you want a f*cking fail safe on.
Very Japanese of them.
Stick some g-force stickers a la Myth busters style on your frame and fork then