Review: Race Face's New Aeffect R Alloy Wheelset

 I can't build a DT350/EX511 wheelset for less, and I get all the parts at wholesale. lol. I charge $720 for that build. so if someone can get them for $400, I would also like a link!

also, goooooooooood luck finding EX511's right meow!

 Maybe you can get that in Europe. Right now you are looking at 435€ with VAT for 32 hole EX511/350, Competiton spokes and standard niples. Can't yet find the price for these but comparing to TurbineR you should be 150-200€ under and, importantly, you have to build them yourself.

 @conoat: even so, I'd take the dt wheels at 720 all day.

 nah, for $30 more, at least in the EU

www.actionsports.de/en/dt-swiss-350-boost-disc-is-custom-wheelset-mtb-27-5-19366#617b8226c75679df42d2187166a7874d

 @conoat: Good luck finding any parts right now..its bleak out there....

 I just sold me old affect r wheels, no microspline. Hope pro 4 on nukeproof horizon CX ray spokes for £6xx ish in the post

 Not sayin it's $200 less but it is cheaper and lighter and I would definitely get it instead.
www.wheelproject.com/en/dt-swiss-ex511-275-650b-dt-swiss-350-is-1840g-wheelset

Though personally I went for a Flow Mk3 / DT350 combo for about the same price (saved a few more bucks going for a novatech hub in front).

I just wish someone had told me I'd need to pay $100 more to get the 54T ratchet >_

 @vid1998: Nipples are included with the rims so you can take that off if you added them separately as well, I was able to get the parts for 375euro right now from R2 bike(I used sapim race spokes as they are equivalent to DT comp and R2 doesn´t sell DT spokes), according to recent exchange rates that´s 435dollars or something. I wonder why the f*ck would anyone buy race face wheels even if they were 100dollars more expensive. To the guy above charging 720 for a wheelset, well, you must be really proud of your wheelbuilding skills aren´t you?

 @Mondbiker: I can build a wheel. But right now I don't have a truing stand, I don't have a tension gauge, I don't have a dishing gauge. So I would have to add all that to the cost.
Yes, the next time i'd build a wheel I wouldn't have to buy all these tools again, but TBH I don't go through wheels that often.

 I got a set of Bitex hubs laced to Flow Mk3 wheels for $500. I'd buy those any day over RF products...

 @f00bar: The only option in that configuration is 18t ratchet. 18 teeth ratchet! Not even for free would I buy such a crap. I thought that I would upgrade my 10 years old 27T Novatec hub with 36t ratchet because I started really disliking such a low POE and I realized phenomenal DT Swiss is selling even crappier crap!

 I own two sets of Race Face Aeffect R30 wheels (27.5 & 29") and an extra 29" rear wheel that I bought more than 2 years ago. Even with the sets, I paid roughly $150 a wheel which I think is a great deal. They've been solid but I'm also running tire inserts on all the wheels. Not sure why they are saying this is a new product though...

 @HollyBoni: you don´t need truing stand-you have 2 of those on your bike already don´t you?Just be a bit creative with a zip tie or piece of electrical tape. You can measure the dish easily with vernier caliper and you certainly don´t need spoke tension meter( not saying it isn´t beneficial to have it, you can buy solid quality stuff from ebay/ali for less than 20euro)

 @Mondbiker: Yeah, nah... I'm "crative" but I'm not going to build a €400 wheelset without the proper tools. €50 wheelset, sure.

 @HollyBoni: Doesn´t really matter, the more expensive parts (rims) are actually easier to build because they end up straight or damn near if you use equal tension on each side. If you were building wheels as a job, proper tools save time, that´s all.

 @fluider: You are bang on. I'm not impressed with DT selling hubs with 18T ratchets as stock, and expecting you to spend more month to upgrade. If you like DT Swiss, I recommend checking out Erase hubs. They work on a similar mechanism, but come stock with 60T, angular contact bearings, and are lighter as well.

 @privateer-wheels: titanium freehub as well so should hopefully last longer than 52t DT swiss ratchets do.

 @Mondbiker: What I meant is i'm not going to half ass a €400 wheel build. I'm sure you build multiple wheels every day without any tools at all and you can tell by ear if the spoke tension is 98kgf or 99kgf, but sadly that's not me.

 @Mondbiker: I'm with you on this. Every time I see these pre built wheels I just laugh at the price. It is easy to put a better wheel together at home for quite a bit less money, plus you get the satisfaction and manliness boost from building them with your own hands.
That's not for everyone - a lot of people believe the stories about wheels being really difficult to build. Fair enough the first one I built wasn't the best, but the learning curve is steep. I've done about ten wheels in my life now and none of them has ever failed. I recommend it to anyone. Just read up on how to do it then have a go. Do it in stages and stop every time you get cheesed off or bored.

 @Mondbiker: How could I forget. Yes, one of the coolest parts!

 @conoat: I was laughed out of a shop when I asked about EX511s

 @jaame: Wheel building is perhaps the most relaxing activity for me lol, I guess if I was doing it for living that would be different but as it is it feels like meditation to me.

 @poleczechy: Fortunately the EX 511 isn't the only show in town! There are great alternatives.

 @Mondbiker: I am. yes. so are the pro racers I build wheels for. It's almost like premium skill demands a premium price.

 @conoat @Mondbiker I'm all for supporting people building at home, but I think we should acknowledge there is a difference in having built 6 or 8 or 10 of your own wheels at home with a $20 meter (with a $3 gauge and a $0.10 spring), and having wheels built by someone who has built hundreds or thousands of wheels, and is using the finest tools available. Cheap tools don't provide for the same level of accuracy and precision - not out of the box, and certainly even less over time.

I agree with conoat, experience and skill, and ultimately that builders time, is worth something - and the more you are spending on wheel components, the more you are likely to value that expertise.

 @privateer-wheels: that's a fair point. I could use a dentist analogy. If you care about how your teeth look you're going to pay for a good dentist. If you just want them to not hurt and be able to bite and chew, any old dentist will do. I build my own wheels to be good enough and nothing more. I wouldn't trust my own dentistry skills to be good enough, that's why I trust a professional.

 @privateer-wheels: while I don´t doubt that more professional tools are more accurate, I do believe that unless for some reason you really need exactly xx kgf spoke tension it doesn´t matter too much unless you go way too high or too low with the spoke tension. Getting the equal spoke tension is absolutely more important than getting exact spoke tension and even the cheap tool is better than doing it by feel. But since you are professional, one question that I was asking myself before, when you are building wheels you use certain spoke tension, if you need to do repair/warranty work on that same wheel, would you deflate the tire to get the target spoke tension or is there more sophisticated formula that would account for spoke tension loss with the air pressure in tire? Just curious, I´m skeptical that it would be possible with all the different rims/spokes etc., but maybe I´m wrong, it would be cool for sure.

 @Mondbiker: You don't need to go way to high or way to low to compromise an otherwise good product, though certainly that will do the trick. The cheaper meters generally don't come well calibrated (if at all), and what is worse is the cheap springs fall out of calibration rather quickly. Reads also don't have the same resolution, and repeatability is harder to get in cheap meters because they aren't built with the same precision. It is not far fetched to come up with a scenario where you buy a new meter that's not calibrated and is off by 10%, 15%, or 20%, if not more. If you are relying on your meter to be accurate, pending the direction of that variance, that may put you under a healthy tension where you end up breaking spokes more frequently, or conversely, in the zone were warranties are void, and you start to see cracks in your rim over time, or worse, your hub flanges. Many rims out there will also distort and get pretty wonky if you take the tension just a little too high, and if you are relying on a meter that isn't accurate it's easy to get into the predicament where you actually damage a rim. Some rims have a fairly small window for an optimal build and a 10-20% variance in calibration can through you outside of it pretty easily. Some rims are more tolerant, some less. Some are VERY fickle. Washers really help as a safeguard.

When you get tires on and inflated, you lose tension. When doing an assessment or repair, for me, the tires always come off for a fair assessment. If you notice also, adding a tire and pressure can also change the dish of the wheel, not just tension. If you want to be really slick, you can try to account for dish as well in your build

@jaame: well put, but the reality is more nuanced than just being pretty. It's more about being functional - it's about the chewing. I see experience as adding additional value in insuring a great job gets done on every wheel, no matter the component selection. And being able to provide a guarantee on the work. With experience and frequent building of many wheel parts, you get to know the products as well, and how they react to tension during a build, and what to look for so you know when to stop. I can tell you the rims in these RF wheels (appear to be ARC Offset rims) for instance, have a recommended max tension of 122 kgf, but also a smallish lower window of ideal tension. I can tell you exactly how they will react at 100 kgf, 110 kgf, 120 kgf, and when to stop before things start to distort (which is below 122 kgf, by the way). I also know what washers will work well and won't work at all with these rims if you want to get the most out of them. You won't get that from a DIY home builder. I used to see a lot of the older symmetric ARC rims on trail and in the lift line with puckered spoke holes because they were built with to high tension, and it didn't have to be by a huge amount - I imagine this eventually led to cracking for many. They are fine rims though, if built properly.

All in all to the both of you - I absolutely respect you build your own wheels. It's easy to minimize the mechanical inclination and ability involved though, when you have done it with good results. I would say you both are probably above average in that respect. I can say that because I know numerous who have tried brought me their wheels to finish when they were not satisfied with the results. Keep it up, and don't shy away from splurging on good tools - rarely has anyone regretted buying good tools =)

 @wicol: same thing happened to me. BUT, I upgraded the ratchet and it is well worth the $100

 @nerds-on-dirt-mtb: yep! I just checked a couple zites for a rear wheel, and it's slim.

 @privateer-wheels: I like you. You're a well balanced guy.

 @poleczechy: find a new shop?

 Yeah, I want 29 spokes.

 @bigtim: 28.99 Spokes for ideal stiffness to weight ratio

 28f and 32r is ok though

 32 hole in the rear, or GTFO. I would rather 36 over 28.

 I agree. For carbon I’m good with 28 but now the aluminum rims seem to be following this trend when the rims can’t be as strong or stiff. Think it was a good call for stans to only offer the flow ex3 in 32, if it’s supposed to be the heavy enduro use rim then build it up that way.

 Pick a spoke count and be a dick about it

 I've built a lot of wheels, and used to think the same... "32 spokes for life" and all that. But since modern large cross-section rims like these 30/35mm rims, rim stiffness is off the charts, truly allowing for fewer spokes to be used.
I even repaired a (shitty) Sram Roam 24 spoke wheelset using a 24h gravel rim, and even though there were just 24 spokes keeping it together, it was a lot stiffer than my old WTB frequency i23 wheels with 32 spokes.

 The review would disagree:

"I've been fortunate to have had my hands on a set for the last couple months, logging hundreds of miles on them to see how they fare."

"As far as durability goes, I had several suspension-bottoming rim strikes while bombing through leaf covered rocks, some of the hardest hits I've given wheels in some time, and the rims suffered no damage whatsoever. No dents, no broken spokes, no flat spots, nothing."

 @two-one: I build my own wheels and no issues with 28h. Rode with a broken spoke without noticing right away.

 I destroy wheels during park season. After 3 years not a single issue with my 28H atlas wheels.

My enduro bike has 24H carbon rims. Even those are fine. 32H won't be the standard forever as R&D and technology progresses.

 @islandforlife: he’s not a heavy guy. Also, suspension bottoming rim strikes are easier on the rim than a hard strike at speed that’s not absorbed by the suspension.

 @DHhack: That's how most of my rims end up smashed.

 @Jesse221: That was our thinking exactly: heavy duty is heavy duty, and that's 32-hole.

 My experience with RF ARC30 offset doesn’t align with your statement. They have required one service in 6 months. Laced up to DT 350’s they have been a very dependable rim. Great feel too.

 Yup. Every company makes a rim that is potentially "cheese" depending on the rider. Heavier guys running lower pressure will more easily dent rims made from 6061 (RF AR, DT1900, Stans S1, e13 Base). But all companies also make much better rims made of 6069 alloy (like is used in this wheelset). Unfortunately a lot of OE builds come with the cheaper, softer rims and can ruin a brands rep for the nicer higher end stuff...

 @dangerwank I have had good luck with a few Arc Rims (27's and 30's) as far as staying true. However, they do get dents VERY easily. Cheese indeed.

 110% accurate. I was on a budget and bought a set of the last version. With Minions DH casing, 25psi and put 3 dents in the rear 1st ride. Replaced the rim and my next ride dented the front and then rear. Done with aluminum rims, not worth the dents. Been on carbon wheels for 2 seasons now without having to even touch them. Money saved in the long run.

 @Marky771: Rim profile has a lot to do with this also. Thickness of the hook, overall shape and symmetry (Symmetric hoops tend to stand up better than asymmetric hoops against impacts) make a difference for those who have a habit of destroying rims with dents. That is not to undermine your point of course, the blend of alloy used makes a big difference. 6069 is definitely superior to 6061. 6013 is another that is popping up now that is also better than 6061, and perhaps better than 6069 also from what I am seeing.

 I've seen a significant improvement in the 'ARC Offset' rims vs the previous non-offset generation of ARC rims

 @gtvbrendan: the older ones were made of 6061 alloy. That's likely why. The newer AR are 6061, the newer ARC are 6069.

 @privateer-wheels: I'm pretty skeptical of alloy rims in general now because of my own experience and the experience of my crew. Also I read these articles about alloy rims and they nearly always say "they held up to the abuse" and rarely do but would love to do a full review if someone wants to send a set to my address for testing. I'd even pay shipping both ways. I'll do the same set up with Minions DHF/R DH casing, 22psi front and 25psi rear then document it. I'd love it if these rims can hold up since I'm fully aware that carbon wheels are super expensive and don't always offer the ride characteristics people are looking for. This is actually why I've pitched wheel sets that come with as alloy front and carbon rear. Probably could be priced sub $1k and will get the job done nicely.

 @daugherd: I had the same experience. First ride and the rear was beyond repair. Front had several dents but salvageable. I only weigh 150 pounds.

 @daugherd:

I never had any problems with my Affect R’s, I also run 26-28lbs of tire pressure...

 @Saidrick: That's good to hear.

 Thankfully someone said it. I had a pair of these and could consistently flex the 32 spoke version into the frame not to mention the several rim killing dings in them. Overall I was not impressed.

 This please!

 This wheelset vs. Hunt Trailwide vs. Nukeproof Horizon vs. custom equivalent.

 I would be interested to see an article where they get a few readers to present the wheels they built themselves and test them all. That would be cool. It's easy to build better wheels than any of these factory ones for a lot less money and plenty of people do that. It would be great to see some.

 This would actually be amazing, just have Jason thrash them in whistler all year!

 @SkullsRoad: always include a DT wheelset. One of the most reliable and affordable prebuilt wheelsets. And probably most popular.

 @Mac1987: Definitely the most popular they come stock on a BUNCH of bikes.

 Also the details list a 25mm internal rim, and the article says they are i30....

 Common core math.

 LOL

 funny, but no
simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p20000018/ENDURO-6092RS-Rubber-Sealed-Deep-Groove-Ball-Bearing-9x24x7mm/product_info.html

 sure, with these 6092 bearings there's no need to save weight with wobbly rims: www.tradebearings.com/6092-deep-groove-ball-bearing-460-680-100-product-121722.html

 I bought a RF wheelset, lasted my three rides. Felt good for those three rides! I did deal with their customer support on something unrelated, and they did great. I don't blame them for my aggressive riding.

 The fact that you have had to work with their customer support (easy or otherwise) is a question mark for the quality of the product no?

 @onemind123: In my case, it was a replacement part. Specifically, the antenna cover (charger port) cap for the Cinch power meter. I have thousands of miles on it, but it eventually broke and they helped me get replacements.

 @onemind123: Nope. I damaged a part in such a manner that was 100% my fault.

 Wanted to say the exact same thing.
But maybe Daniel sees a 30mm circle in the rim that we simply don't see?

 Sounds like you might want to try pumping up your tire or installing a tire insert.

 Get the RF Arc Offset HD. They are completely bulletproof. Have a set of those matched up to some Hope hubs and they've taken an absolute beating this year.

 @ericolsen: I keep my pressure were it should be even a bit higher. I'm just unlucky I guess.

 I would consider these then saw you saying Hope wheels....balance is restored. Hope wheels are a darn good option.

 The "problem" is that the 30mm version only comes with the strong, but super heavy rim option.

 @HollyBoni: Which set? Sounds like something I would be interested in.

 @JSTootell: Hope Fortus line. They come in 23, 26, 30, 35mm.

 @HollyBoni: THanks. Now I have to try and find one to consider...

(My Hope Pro2 hubs have been nice)

 Hope hubs, £200. Good rims, £65 each. Spokes, £50. Am I missing something with all these pre built wheelsets?

 @jaame: labor! I honestly have no idea how long a wheel build takes but labor cost add up quickly.

 @mtmc99: it takes a Taiwanese factory wheel builder 20 minutes per wheel. They lace an entire flange in one movement! Also, the companies selling these wheels are not paying £65 a rim. Probably £10-16. They're not paying £50 for spokes. In my opinion, carbon wheels have massively increased the upper cost threshold that people are willing to accept, and now aluminium rims are being increased in price to exploit that space between what was considered to be acceptable and what is now considered to be acceptable.
When I look at pre made alloy wheels like this I don't see the value. There is nothing wrong with them per se, but they are overpriced. Not hugely so, but enough to put off anyone who knows how to build their own wheels.

 @jaame: it isnt an unskilled person who is taking 20 minutes to build a wheel though. Its someone who after retail markup is invoicing labor at 200/hr. Labor is ALWAYS what your paying for when it comes to bikes, including sourcing parts.

It costs almost $30 for a shop to repair a flat tire...

 The average monthly salary in Taiwan last year was $38,800 TWD. Factory workers are making more like $30k. That's $1000 USD.
It is likely that these wheels are built in a Taiwanese factory. That's awesome, they make excellent wheels... But it's not even coming close to a $200 labour cost. It would be to have them made in your local bike shop though I guess. 2-3 hours' work would do that I would think.

 @jaame: better builds, tooling, processes, QC. I bet there's £75 additional for this in a DT Swiss wheelset, and that one of their goals is for customers to not need a touch-up after break-in. Hopefully Hope are similar.

 @jaame: invoiced charge, it has nothing to do with what the employee makes. Bike shops charge about $80/hr for labor how much of that do you think goes into the mechanics pocket at a small business level? As production increases the invoice cost is almost always going to go up for labor, and due to assembly line assembly the hourly pay of the worker will go down.
$200/ hr to throw together 3 wheels is about 60 each as a labor charge. That sounds completely reasonable. Its all hypothetical numbers, but labor is expensive.

 @RonSauce: ok I've got you

 @jaame: Can I have a link to where I could find those price, looking for a new wheelset...

 @olivierhoude: just look on Google!

 Every company has good high end stuff (6069 aluminum) and lower end stuff (softer 6061 aluminum) that doesn't work for everyone. My last DT1900 wheelset was HORRIBLE. Tons of dents and freehub issues as well. Would I have had a better experience on the 1700? Probably. My buddy is on a RF wheelset (Turbine) with no issues, and I'm on a higher end e13 (LG1 EN Plus) that has been bombproof as well. Way better than DT I had before, but again it's a higher end wheelset...

 Really casue race face “high end” is where their products fail the most next r. Sixc. All down right dangerous @Marky771:

 ? Take some biking lessons

 yep, same issues. luckily I got these wheels second hand. Blew the rear wheel rim and ended up having to get another new one (luckily super discounted). Since ran with Nukeproof ARD inserts and still put a flat on the rim. Lost count of the times I've replaced bearings. Do love the almost instant engagement though.

 @zombiejack33: Haha yeah I probably should, I do have a knack for breaking things. A buddy of mine broke lots of his spokes on the same rims too. I guess he rides hard as well. When I had E1900s I rode just as hard (with more bike park) and my wheels lasted much longer (rear only needed to be trued once!).

 I think the Vault hub issues were isolated to the early product runs. I've not seen issues with the newer ones. Have you? I am genuinely curious.

 They may look the same, but they actually aren't.

Rim profiles, and blend of alloy used are different.

Hubs are also different. It appears to me IBIS is using a rebranded Novatec (nothing wrong with that), and RaceFace something else entirely - not as obvious to on first blush.

 I saw that too and nearly stopped reading at that point.

 No, the article says inner diameter of 30mm. Them be some short spokes needed.

 They've corrected the article now...

 @Pedal-Bin: nope, main text still says "30mm inner diameter"