Review: Berd’s Hawk 30 Wheels Use String Spokes for Impressive Compliance
When it comes to making great carbon wheels, more and more brands are cracking the case, if you'll excuse the pun. Lighter, stronger, more comfortable, and maybe front and rear-specific lacing, layup, or design are becoming commonplace. In fact, when it comes to off-road wheel and tire tech I think we're in something of a golden age. Wheels are all in all pretty good, tubeless systems are adequately reliable and there are more brands offering viable options for tires than ever before. That said, carbon wheels and tubeless tires aren't exactly cheap, and although mountain bikers might be spoiled for choice that's not to say some of the prices aren't eye-watering.
Berd Hawk30 Details
• Wheel size tested: 29"
• Intended use: Trail/All-Mountain
• Rim dimension: 30mm width, 18mm profile
• Hubs: Berd Talon Hub 54T ratchet
• UHMWPE Spokes
• Weight: 1360g total (actual)
• MSRP: $2,295
• More info: berdspokes.com
• Wheel size tested: 29"
• Intended use: Trail/All-Mountain
• Rim dimension: 30mm width, 18mm profile
• Hubs: Berd Talon Hub 54T ratchet
• UHMWPE Spokes
• Weight: 1360g total (actual)
• MSRP: $2,295
• More info: berdspokes.com
But once you've dabbed the tears away from your eyes, what can you expect out of a high-flying carbon wheel? Well, more and more brands are using the current buzzword of wheel tech - compliance. Whereas five years ago the industry was obsessed with offering the stiffest wheel for the least weight there now seems to be a turn to making the most comfortable wheels they can as reliable as possible. I think this is a sensible direction. Besides, while some riders benefit from more stiffness all riders benefit from more comfort.
At the front of this are a few obvious examples but I don't think anyone has gone as all-in as Berd. The brand from Hopkins, Minnesota, offers something genuinely novel with its string-spoke builds. The Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene (UHMWPE) spokes are drastically lighter than common steel spokes and, according to Berd, offer far greater pull-strength, too. Berd states "UHMWPE has 12 times the strength-to-weight ratio of steel and floats on water. Berd spokes have an improved fatigue life over steel and are impervious to the elements. This is what makes Berd spokes the lightest, strongest, and most durable spokes ever invented." So far, so interesting.
The key part of interest, for me at least, is the vibration-damping properties. Berd's spokes use a standard 14 gauge threaded barb that is affixed to the end of the flexy-spoke. The other end is looped to simply hook onto their own hubs. Non-Berd hubs can be prepped to be built up with these spokes, should you want to go the custom route. These spokes weigh 2.5 grams each. Berd claims that these spokes damp vibration 200% better than metal spokes.
Design & Specs
When talking about these wheels as a whole, things become interesting. These wheels are made entirely in North America. Berd outsources the manufacturing of the rim to We Are One in Kamloops. They are keen to point out that while WAO might make the rims, they are a Berd product. The rim has a 30mm width with a shallow 18mm profile. They're designed with radial compliance and lateral stiffness in mind and aim to mate up with the spoke technology to deliver something truly different.
At the center of my test wheels was the Berd Talon Hub with 54T engagement. The hub relies on two-star ratchets that worked well and ran smoothly for the duration of testing. The rims are slightly asymmetric but you wouldn't immediately tell from looking at them. The lip of the rim is 3.75mm to offer better impact displacement.
To understand how Berd's wheels could offer better compliance than wheels with metal spokes it's worth considering how a wheel flexes upon impact, as well as how the effect of preload comes into play.
If we imagine our wheel as a clockface, when we take a huge impact at six o'clock it won't be able to only move one part of the rim in isolation. If we imagine that section bowing inwards we can also consider how the rim might swell out at around eight and four o'clock. It's this action that I feel delivers the compliance because Berd's spokes just simply offer a greater level of elasticity. It's also why you can shout about Young's modulus as much as you like, but how much tension you put on steel spokes does make a difference in the real world. It might not be changing the tensile properties of the metal spokes to add turns to the nipple but it does affect the preload enacting upon the rim, and it's this difference in preload that riders feel.
Test Setup
These wheels have seen many miles over two different bikes. Firstly, I put them straight on the torture rack on my enduro bike for as much chunder as I could throw at them. This was a bike outfitted in 1200-1400 gram enduro or downhill tires that would be run between 26 and 28 psi.
During the second half of my test period, I put them on a Cannondale Habit LT with tires typically around 1000 grams. These light and responsive wheels may have found a better home on this bike for general trail riding. I enjoyed their comfort, especially on faster trails where you're perhaps already demanding a lot of a bike that has slightly less travel than would be ideal. Again I would run around 26 and 28 psi depending on conditions.
The bikes came pre-taped with valves installed. Tire installation was a breeze. The spokes did dull over time. Apparently, you can get them clean again with some elbow grease and bike-wash but I didn't have so much luck with it. If I had the choice I would just opt for the stealthy black options instead.
On the Trail
The claims about compliance, in a way, might not go far enough. The fact of the matter is that lots of carbon wheels can now deliver compliance, but the Berd Hawk30 wheels take this to the extreme. Yes, there is an inevitable trade-off with the stiffness, but they still hold up surprisingly well through heavy load turns. Through chatter though, they shine. The way the wheel damps the trail is fantastic, and the comfort on offer is without a shadow of a doubt vastly superior to almost any other wheelset I've ridden. They do trade off a little precision compared to other carbon-rimmed wheels, but they are markedly smoother.
One thing I did notice was almost no tire burping, which is something I suffer a lot when riding very high-speed chunder, even on downhill tires. This was great to see, and something I really enjoyed. I think the sheer compliance of the rim means it just gets out of the way, and the impact merely chases it.
I noticed distinct differences in terms of hand fatigue over heavy, hard, and fast runs. When riding slower-speed trails this trait does ebb away slightly, but on high-frequency chatter, the wheels shine. When leaning and loading the bike the extra flex is noticeable but it does tend to bleed into the bike. It's a gradual feeling and not something that lurches or squirms underneath you. This is important because I think consistency underpins confidence, and that consistency is just something you learn to trust and get along with.
Durability
The durability of these wheels, in terms of all-out breakages, has been very good. The way the rim flexes away from impacts means that they ran very quiet and I'm not sure I ever went straight to the rim like I normally do on square-edge impacts. That's not to say they're perfect, though.
When testing parts of wheels it's important to test them in line with a brand's information. These wheels, according to Berd are "Light enough for XC racing but tough enough for gnarly trail rips and enduro runs." With that in mind, I initially put them on my Transition Spire test mule to see how they would hold up.
After a few days of riding, and a re-tenson after the initial bedding in, a spoke did work loose and break (they were checked for tension at the start of the morning and it was on my fourth run of the Creekside area of Whistler Bike Park). As it loosened it came out of the nipple and wrapped itself around the hub and the metal-threaded insert jammed itself through my rotor and started to grind against my frame. This is disappointing - and highlights an area where the system falls short. Once I managed to cut it out - something that wasn't easy as it was the "under" spoke on the hub - I tried to carry on riding but struggled to keep tension in the other spokes. It perhaps highlights an issue with this technology - if you do break a spoke or lose tension the wheel becomes very wayward, and in this compromised form offers a far worse experience than if you had the same happen with traditional spokes.
Of all the wheelsets, and all the theories that thread-locking nipples would be applicable for, surely a low-tension high-flex wheel is a perfect candidate. The elastic nature of carbon wheels can often make nipples unwind, and it would be great to see Berd try and protect themselves against this to a greater extent after the initial bed-in period. Most carbon wheelsets struggle with this to some extent but I feel the hyper-compliance of the Hawk30 wheels, which I generally really like, makes them extra-vulnerable.
After this, I put them on a shorter travel bike for the remainder of the test period and they were excellent throughout. Ever slightly nervous of them de-tensioning on a big ride I did make sure to carry the special spoke keys on the bike at all times though.
Upon inspection at the end of my testing some of the spokes were frayed at the hub. This might not have any negative consequence on reliability but I did think it noteworthy.
Pros
+ Class-leading compliance
+ Incredibly light for enduro-rated wheels
+ Compliance means no-more tire burps
Cons
- Struggled to keep tension in the very place that they really shine
- Propietary spoke keys can mean trail side fixes are tricky
Pinkbike's Take
 | The Berd Hawk30 wheels are not a gimmick. They're the real deal and I think this technology could lead somewhere very, very interesting - and potentially see both widespread adoption and imitation. The rim, hub, and spokes all contribute to a fantastic product, even if it's certainly not cheap. While I would love to make the most of the huge amounts of comfort on offer, they don't hold tension well enough for true fast and rough enduro runs. However, on a trail bike they can bring you a lightweight wheel that offers excellent amounts of both tracking and comfort. |
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When your room looks kinda weird and you wish that you weren’t there, just close your eyes and make-believe (you know the rest, sing along)!
Some facts for you.
Dyneema has less stretch than steel at similar loads.
Dyneema has less creep than steel at similar loads.
Dyneema is stronger than steel of equal diameter.
Dyneema is light enough it floats.
Dyneema is incredibly cut resistant.
Dyneema is considered 'self lubricating' and can run at load through non-rotating rings without harm.
Presumably that's surprising to a fair few commenter's, but them there's the facts.
Fact: I'm wondering about the combination of Ti spokes with a modern carbon rim
But what you said, and what I was responding to was this: "yet these are presumably way more elastic."
I cannot recall exactly what Ali C. used for the front wheel of his street/trials, but overtime he had problems with the ropes really being frayed.
He had also to adjust the tension many times.
There are "facts" and there are Facts:
- An object's weight does not determine its ability to float.
- Boats are very heavy yet they float.
- A sand grain is very light yet does not float.
- Dyneema is low-density* enough it floats
In fact; Dyneema has a LOWER tensile modulus than either Titanium or Steel.
Perhaps you meant to imply that Dyneema has a higher SPECIFIC modulus?
ie. for a given WEIGHT of Dyneema, it will stretch less than either steel or Titanium.
If so, then; yes, very nice.
However, that isn't the situation we have here. In fact we don't even have equal volumes of material. My understanding is that the Berd spokes are 1.4mm diameter so with a tensile modulus about 57% that of 304 stainless and a cross sectional area about 87% that of even the thinnest butted stainless spokes; we would expect to see about half the stiffness and therefore twice the stretch of a stainless spoke.
Berd themselves acknowledge the extra stretch and consider it a positive feature.
QED
Mine measure a little under 2 mm (tensioned). Difficult to get an exact measurement due to the weave.
I love this!
How many wrongs can you put together to make one huge right?!
You get a hub and rim, and some string. BUT instead of lacing conventionally, you make a pretty pattern and cover the whole thing in plastic!
I'm going to name it the 'Tioga Disc Drive'. Or maybe 'Sugino Tension Disc'.
I'm not sure how their damping properties compare at different frequencies. That could generate a notably different feel and perception between the two.
According to Berd's site, the midsection diameter is 1.8 mm; unclear whether this is at rest or under load - or whether that matters - but it agrees with my measurement.
The website doesn't quantify stiffness. I think I recall a chart showing them to be slightly less stiff than a ⌀1.5 mm steel spoke, which is in line with my experience.
Difficult to say the extent to which the damping affects ride feel. Berd claims "200% better vibration damping than wheels with metal spokes", but doesn't discuss the vibration modes, specific frequencies, whether the frequencies in question are relevant, whether any frequencies of wheel vibration are relevant, or even whether they're referring to just the spoke or they actually mean the entire wheel. Most of the vibration claims in the bike industry are absolute nonsense. We could replace our tires and forks with frozen memory foam and I'm sure vibrations would be altogether eliminated, but it wouldn't be an improvement to ride quality.
Anyway, I can attest to the more comfortable and, for me, more pleasant ride feel, but I won't claim to know with certainty the cause of this feeling. I suspect it's primarily due to reduced lateral stiffness and secondarily due to improved damping as the wheel returns to neutral.
If Berd claims 1.8mm dia, then area is 80% of ~2.55mm^2 = ~2.0mm^2 or only ~16% more x-section than a 16G steel spoke (1.75mm^2). That would definitely be less nominally/absolutely stiff by a significant amount.
I'm very intrigued - there's a textiled spoke wheelset in my future for sure, but right now there's too much life left in my current wheelset and not enough money in my checking acct to justify a change.
In my case, 32 Berd spokes were laced to what I assume is a stiffer than average rim (Race Face ARC Carbon 36) and the resulting ride quality is the smoothest I've experienced with this bike, even compared to a wheelset with Race Face 30 mm aluminum rims (presumably less stiff), 28 spokes, and 1.8 mm spokes, which was a pretty smooth-feeling wheelset. The ride quality was much smoother than a 27.5" version of the same bike 32 spokes, ⌀1.5 & ⌀1.65 mm, and We Are One 30 mm Agent rims. Poorly controlled variables, unfortunately, but the ride quality of the Berd spokes stands out to such an extent that I'm convinced they feel significantly smoother.
Note on wire gauges: Like you, I learned 14 gauge = 2.0 mm, 15 gauge = 1.8 mm, etc. ... but where did we get those numbers? Those don't align with the American Wire Gauge standards. Even if we use the bike-specific nomenclature, the ⌀1.5 mm thin spokes you're referencing would be 17 gauge, not 16 gauge. If it's okay with you, I strongly recommend we stick to units of distance for clarity!
Should we also be considering that each strand of the braid will be somewhat longer than the nominal "spoke length"?
I don't see how this bears any relation to the behaviour "on an alloy rim" surely it is a function of losing integrity in a string based "system" that relies heavily on all 28-32 strings being equally tensioned as opposed to a 32 spoke wheel that can actually stand to lose a spoke or two and still run true (especially with a carbon rim versus an alloy rim as one can run higher spoke tensions).
It is one of the reasons to continue to run 32 spoke wheels over 28 spoke wheels (most good carbon rims will be bomb proof in their 28 configuration for most riders - assuming that they are well built and maintained) is the redundancy that comes with the extra spoke count if one should happen to break a spoke or two (nose wheel turn - rear wheel hitting a large rock on a French/ Italian trail being an obvious cause and the foot of a guest going into one's rear wheel being a not so obvious cause).
If one wants greater spoke fatigue life and slightly better lateral compliance one can always build with CX-Ray spokes.
I just don't think that 'Carbon'/rope spokes are there yet but, one day.
Just my 5c worth
Can take it a step further by varying the diameter of the spoke according the different forces on the spokes due different bracing angles on either side of the wheel. For example, an ideal front wheel might use 28 spokes with ⌀1.5 mm on the non-disc side and ⌀1.7 mm on the disc side, and the rear might use 36 spokes with ⌀1.5 mm on the disc side and ⌀1.8 mm on the drive side, or whatever ratios of spoke diameters are required to suit the flange spacings.
We could take it even further by moving the hub flanges as far outboard as possible and using 2:1 spoke patterns (as has been done by Shimano, Campagnolo, and Specialized, among others), which may flip the relationship of which side uses the thinner spokes.
Of course it's fine to use all the same diameter, but considering the expense and effort already in place to optimize our bikes, this has far higher return on investment than most choices. Diminishing returns, of course, so I can't recommend everyone calculate the stress ratios and source 2:1 drilled hubs and rims.
A solution that's pretty simple and captures much of the benefit is to use the same spoke count on both wheels and build with the following:
F non-disc: ⌀1.5 mm
F disc & R disc: ⌀1.65 (1.6 and 1.7 mm are also available, so whatever is most convenient)
R non-disc: ⌀1.8 mm (or 2.0, if 1.7 is the intermediate size)
I usually buy Sapim spokes from the Netherlands, so it's just a matter of clicking a couple extra drop-down items.
When replacing the spokes, I was amazed at how much they stretched over the first three nights. The wheel was fully true at night, and every morning, it was way off. If you are installing yourself, make sure you take the time over three days to get them right before going out on them.
I’ve had the Hawk 27 wheels on my xc bike for a year or so, and they’ve been solid and held tension fine with no maintenance. I do think these are better suited to lighter duty bikes, so my big bike gets steel spokes. I prefer slightly heavier wheels on the big bike so Berds wouldn’t suit my preferences for harder riding anyway.
Super interesting video by the way.
Having super flexible rim, may mean that the rim is deflecting so much that the spokes really are going completely slack, which might explain a few things...
@Mac1987: I sure did. That's a good comparison though.
@G-Sport: You could see the thread, but that's also a great tip.
@uponcripplecreek That's interesting, and I'll have to look into it. I think we're probably broadly in agreement, especially considering the top spokes not gaining tension under load, and your comment is great food for though. Thanks
Lmfao, with his advocacy of internal routed headsets and now this, I'm convinced Henry is on a personal quest to destroy the labor base of the bike industry.
The cons for me personally are,
clearly the cost,
A pain to do it yourself,
And almost too soft on enduro e-bikes( although that feel is subjective).
The killer for me is that I build up some WAO wheels on traditional spokes and I like them much better, especially on faster gnarlier trails.
"It's also why you can shout about Young's modulus as much as you like, but how much tension you put on steel spokes does make a difference in the real world. It might not be changing the tensile properties of the metal spokes to add turns to the nipple but it does affect the preload enacting upon the rim, and it's this difference in preload that riders feel."
Thats not how it works... The whole youngs modulus argument is quite literally *about* how preload doesnt effect springrate... You can't counter that by just saying "ah yes, but you haven't considered the preload". The people who bring up youngs modulus when arguing that spoke tension doesn't effect wheel tension are talking specifically about the preload. And how it doesn't affect anything. Because it doesn't.
With regards to preload, and I'm really happy to learn and go into this with an open mind, but if you had a spoke at the correct tension, then over-tensioned it by say 3-turns, that has to come from somewhere. It could be a number of places but I would suspect the interface between nipple and rim. It's that difference I'm referring to. A genuine question, if not excessive preload, what would be the right term to call this? Thanks!
I would think the interface between nipple and rim contributes to what you’re describing, especially if there are odd interactions with a washer or something. But with that comes the spoke stretching out elastically, spoke J bends getting pulled flatter, the rim diameter reducing ever so slightly as the spokes pull it inward under compression, and hub flanges stretching outward. Really, it’s a combination of all of these that give you more spoke length to move around, but I think it’s mostly the spokes. “Bedding in” would be the best name I can think of for this interaction, as things are settling and some permanent deformation occurs, but “excessive preload” does describe what’s happening to the spokes and wheel well enough too.
If we consider the nipple-rim interface, that's a small region, while a spoke is much longer. The deformation required to provide three turns worth of extra length is a tiny fraction of the length of a spoke, but a huge fraction of the nipple-rim interface length. It's like trying to flex a long steel sheet vs. a tiny length of spaghetti: the former might feel less stiff because flexing it creates small changes over many short distances, while the latter involves a comparatively large change due to the tiny region available to flex. Or, in bike terms, it's why a BMX wheel is much stiffer than a 36er of similar construction.
As for what to call it, it's best to just keep it simple and call it stiffness, with the understanding that stiffness is a product of shape, material, and manufacturing.
• Shape: A large amount of a soft or weak material can still be stiff and strong, and vice-versa.
• Material: Materials all vary in their properties. A small amount of a strong and stiff material is enough to make a final product with adequate strength and stiffness.
• Manufacturing: Everything has to fit together properly to realize the full potential. If a bike that would normally be stiff has slop in the pivots, it's not stiff until the various pieces lock into place. With wheels, it's typical for the spoke tension to take care of this via sufficient preload on the connections.
On a related note, this is why it's poor practice to attempt to alter the stiffness of wheels via spoke tension. A better solution is to use thinner spokes and maintain proper tension.
It cost a fortune to have these made and shipped to Australia but was way cheaper than buying a second bike. I wanted to offer a different perspective ie the Berds extended the range of riding for my one bike quiver. Worth every cent.
Super cool but expensive way to make my wheelset feel like the cheaper alloy/steel version it was before.
I've got another set of wheels with Berd spokes ready for next year for another bike. Expensive, novel, but pretty cool and ride nicely.
When they were released I was most skeptical of sub 400g 28h rims in an enduro application, so it's nice to see Henry didn't break a rim.
Reliability is the best "feature" of carbon wheels though and given the proprietary parts and the build/tensioning process being a PITA, Henry's experience does give me pause.
While this wheelset's weight is pretty game changing when compared to a good 1800g (likely closer to 2kg) enduro wheelset, relegating them to a trail bike is significantly less appealing. You can build an excellent set of trail wheels in the ~1600g range and not deal with reliability/proprietary issues. Yes, these Berds are still lighter but I'm not reaching for my credit card in a hurry to replace the 28h WAO Factions with CX rays on my short travel bike. If you told me I could save 500g rotating weight on my enduro though and still have bombproof wheels that'd really be something. I'll be waiting for more long term reviews to trickle in.
Also for the handful of people who actually care about such things, I believe the Talon hubs are made in Taiwan. This guy tends to know his hubs:
youtu.be/ESRZUekH_7M?si=AJSpTJl9uCIAL_4O
So potentially not entirely made in North America.
I would definitely consider moving to "alt-"spokes (BERD / UHMWPE or a different option – e.g. the PiRope design made of Vectran) if I were comfortable with the tensioning / truing / replacement options. But, as Mr. Quinney's review makes clear, that process is far more complex than with traditional spoke designs.
The Wheel Works video you linked is quite interesting – great info on their channel – and I'm assuming that assessment of the Talon hub's country-of-origin is correct. If a full Made-in-N.A. wheelset is critical, though – BERD does offer Industry Nine Hydra hubs on the Hawk wheelsets (personally I wish they were 1/1s for a little lower drag and less axle breakage!)
I am on a Pirope wheelset on my Transition Patrol Carbon for 3,5 years now. It has quite light Newmen alloy rims and weights 1450g despite it has no carbon rims. But I also only spent 900€ for the wheels. I am using the bike for nearly all of my riding. Hometrails, Enduro tours, Bikepark, jump trails. The wheelset holds up impressivly well. Even the rims has no dents or flatspots, which has always been a problem for me in the past with other wheelsets.
I had one torn spoke in all the time caused by a thick branche in the wheel. Even steel spokes would not have survived.
The replacement was very easy, just like the truing and tensioning. But I had to say, that I only had to truing the wheel the one time when I replaced the spoke.
In my opinion Pirope Wheels are much nicer built then the Berd wheels, because of the better attachment of the spokes to the hub. With Pirope there is no ugly fraying of the spokes on the Hub.
The Pirope Wheelset rides fantastic, it´s stiff and super light, but at the same time supple and smooth and brings definitly additional traction over other wheelsets.
I never want a "traditional" wheelset again.
I hope someone figures out how to make this tech affordable someday.
They still make spinergy wheels, they make an enduro set with PBO spokes.
spinergy.com/collections/mtb/products/mxx30?variant=42691561226428
1800g though.
That was what was wondering about..
It’s not a lot of movement, but the point where the “spokes” crossover seems like an opportunity for wear after a few seasons.
I guess metal spokes can do the same, but this seems like a tighter overlap due to the spoke size.
Hope I’m wrong.
And I say this as someone that has had to cut a highly tensioned line for safety before. It was truly surprising how hard it as to cut and how lo'g it took.
I've always done some Dyneema splicing (my dining table suspends off the wall by a tiny Dyneema line to the ceiling) and it's a royal bitch to cut. If I ever do any again I'm going to buy the specialist scissors made for cutting it.
As others have mentioned if you are in a very high traction/ high load environment the 'compliance' can feel unnerving and you encounter a bit of movement, particularly from the rear.
The rear on my current DC bike is a well used Berd spoked wheel and it's began to feel a bit loose lately when I catch a berm just right or go through a g-out.
They are killer for trail bikes, women riders, 27.5" wheels etc.
Also, considering how light they are I'd just go 32 spoke at least in the rear.
I’ve been building and testing my own uhmpe spokes for about 2-3 years now and running them on my enduro bike with wreckless abandon. 28h low profile (high compliance ) rims and ridden by a 200lb gorilla.
My experiences are similar
1) compliance is amazing I immediately set personal records on my local chunder trail…a ttrail I’ve been riding for years and did it with my favourite “control” tires
2) hub fraying is a difficult problem to remedy and will lead to early spoke failure I immediately see something of concern that will likely lead to early failure on these hubs. Furthermore building your own berd wheels and prepping your own hubs will likely not go well if ridden hard . Hub prep is the crux of this design and requires some pedantic care beyond the tools and instructions provided
3) The spoke coming loose is an anomaly….not something I’ve experienced. In theory this design is actually LESS prone to achieving a no tension scenario. The elastic spokes is stretched a lot…as such the rim has to travel further to achieve a no tension scenario allowing more spokes to engage in its support.
In practice berd recommends a lower tension which i suspect could contributed to this. I believe it 80kgf
I can say with certainty a zero tension scenerio is achievable when using a metal spoke at 120kgf. On a normal mtb wheel as such in the wheels I’ve built I underwent a lot of hassle to design a uhmpe spoke that has the strength and durability to handle 120kgf. For a structural perspective no tension on spokes is generally something you want to avoid as much as reasonably possible
4) an advantage to berd spokes is you can carry a spare in your tool kit
Re: #1
Same. As you've probably found, it's not exactly radial compliance, which would feel most similar to reduced tire pressure, but a general smoothness and calmness. Everything just feels ... better.
Re: #2
I've been using Berd spokes for four years with Extralite Hyperboost hubs (straight-pull). No prep on the hubs, which were smooth from the start, but the spokes are mounted with Berd's preferred method of snippets and washers. Spokes are in great shape at the hubs, though there's wear at the crossing points. Berd's Talon hubs appear to use an off-the-shelf hub shell blank with custom flange machining; they should probably invest in a proprietary shell with larger radius attachment points.
Re: #3
That's my thinking, also, though I would need to do some experimentation before feeling certain. I retension the wheels before the start of each season and they stay fine throughout the season.
Re: #4
True, but it's going to be a lengthy repair session if using the snippet-and-washer attachment.
Major differences My spokes are thicker and higher tension. I’m unsure if berd is locking their splices…something that I’ve determined as necessary during severe usage
Your 4 year experience however would indicate exceptional durability in this application.
It seems like many of the good things you mentioned are more attributable to a compliant rim and a low tension wheel build, and damping from both rim and spokes, rather than the spokes themselves being compliant. These spokes aren't magic: you could likely get similar compliance from the same rim on loose steel spokes.
And the wheel going extra wonky after a break sounds just like what would happen to any low tension wheel build, no matter the spoke material.
Other considerations are:
1) they can actually feel slower. People that carefully time these things say that they are faster however.
2) personally I'd never combine them with Onyx hubs. It would add a lot of squish to the initiation of the pedal stroke that the spokes themselves already exhibit.
3) the warranty support at Berd is phenomenal. I needed it when I blew up a hub (that I provided).
Perhaps a little too compliant for my e-bike, but truly exceptional maintenance free experience. I am now a little scared my spokes are going to get in to my rotors…
There's some fraying at the spoke crossings, but not alarming yet.
Intended use. Trail/all mountain
And then in the pro’s states
+ Incredibly light for enduro-rated wheels
I’m not sure if this has been discussed cause I didn’t read all the books people have wrote in the comments.
Berd claims the stiffness of each spoke is less than a ⌀1.5 mm, so yes, Berd spokes are less stiff, but it's because of the design choices, not strictly because of the modulus.
To slightly oversimplify here- If you look at i9's wheels, they use aluminum spokes that require a huge cross-sectional area to get the desired strength they want, and they end up very stiff. Aluminum has a higher ratio of young's modulus to yield strength, so for a given strength you simply can't make a softer alu spoke spoke than a steel alternative.
So now if you look at that same ratio of young's modulus to yield strength for something like Dyneema (largest brand name of UHMW-PE fibers)- its far far lower still than the steel typically used in spokes, so making a spoke that is far softer at a given strength is possible
For example, if there was a material with an even higher ratio of tensile strength to tensile modulus, the designers probably wouldn't design to the minimum strength requirements and allow the wheel to be a floppy mess. Berd has, in my opinion, struck about the right balance with their PolyLight spokes.
It seems we agree on the science. I interpret your point to be focused on the most likely implementation of the material, whereas I was expanding the scope to consider the total range of design possibilities.
One could buy these and a set of Hunt enduro aluminum for the park days and still come in less than a set of Enve's.
Berd hipster crap vs
2 sets of
noblwheels.com/black-friday-2023/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=bf-early-access&utm_source=NOBL+Newsletter&utm_campaign=80a079b9b8-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2023_11_09_07_00_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-44333dce16-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D&goal=0_e1b0c0ed5c-80a079b9b8-423489534&mc_cid=80a079b9b8&mc_eid=a4a180c7c7
But with that line of thinking you could go ex511's laced to dt350's at half the price of the nobl set and the ex511s would be closer in weight to the nobls than they are to the berds.
So they just flop all over?
No more tire burps (assuming same pressure and same/similar bead interface, and same riding) mean there's not as much force going into the tire to push it to the side. In this case because the wheel is flopping all over because it's a low-tension build.
www.wheelworks.co.nz/berd-spoke-ride-feel
Also available in "black", which allows some white to show through over time.
Berd spokes might get to replacing stainless spokes eventually, but for now if you want a reliable and compliant wheel or wheelset, metal with less tension should get you a better (and cheaper) result.
Unless you're using red loctite instead of spoke prep... But that's probably a bad idea if you ever do need to true or tension.
Berd spokes hold up fine for less aggressive use, but seem to have issues when ridden hard. I’d say that while a softer laced metal wheel (METAL!!!!) might eventually have issues, the lifespan is a few seasons.
I never use red loctite, and road pros used lower tension wheels forParis Roubaix (and other brutal classics) for decades. And some of those wheels were used for years-which was/is unheard of for road racing gear. The tech is very time tested to withstand precisely the cycling you claim it won’t handle well.
It’s all here in a nutshell. Thank you for this post!
Fair enough.
I’ve personally had so many issues carbon rims, that I’ll never consider owning another set.
I hope they do well- push the rest of the industry to make compliant carbon that works.
You name it, I (and my buddies) have experienced it all!
My SRAM Roam 60 Carbon “enduro” rims delaminated, broke spokes, fissured at the spoke base, fissures through the rim- and I didn’t even crash, or bottom..
All while giving a spine crushing ride on my old school carbon frame Tallboy. Changing to Spank Oozy 345’s completely transformed my bike to the point that I had to retune my suspension! Never heard of the Roam 60’s? They didn’t last long.
Anything sounding familiar?