Opinion: The Table
"Jeff, can I buy one of those welding tables?" I was hanging out with Jeff Steber outside the Intense factory and I noticed workers were stacking some metal tables in the yard behind the shop. He wouldn't take my money. Jeff set one aside and told me to come pick it up in a week. It was an awkward moment.
I had paid a surprise visit to Intense to drop off a test bike, which should have been no cause for concern. I live an hour south, and I drop in every so often to say hey and, if he isn't busy making a secret project, to talk tech with Jeff. Today, however, as I passed the threshold of the Temecula, California, factory, I sensed something was amiss. Jeff met me in the foyer and before ushering me into the factory's inner sanctum, he turned and said, "RC, you came here on a big day for us." It was not the kind of "big day" I was expecting.
I grew up in metal fabrication shops and I looked forward to passing through the hallway that separated the administration offices from the daily mayhem of the Intense factory. I anticipated seeing odd shadows cast in pink light against its concrete walls and hearing the buzz and crackle of TIG welders. I expected to smell ozone and the sweet scent of coolant emanating from CNC machining centers humming somewhere in the back of the building, and I looked forward to handling the freshly-cut bottom brackets, frame journals, dropouts, and linkages, all neatly arranged in rows, awaiting their turn in the building process. I'd finish my lap around the factory in the assembly area, running my hands over beautifully painted frames, lined up on wooden racks...and I'd allow myself to reminisce, for a fraction of a second, about a time when my fingers played across my own finished creations.
Intense photo
Stepping into the factory, I was confronted with a wall of bicycle boxes, floor to ceiling, stacked neatly on aisles of new scaffolding. The atmosphere smelled like fresh tires, corrugated cardboard, and the pungent assembly grease that wafts from new drivetrain components. Storage occupied the space where manufacturing and frame assembly once took center stage. Only two of six machining centers were left standing and a crew was busy, hastily disassembling the welding department. I watched men cart the TIG machines into shipping containers behind the shop. Assembly fixtures and work-tables were piling up in the fenced yard beside stacks of old shelves and furnishings.
Jeff was visibly moved by the goings on, but he managed to sound committed when he announced that the day had arrived when Intense would no longer manufacture bicycles. He explained that the management took a long, hard look at the costs and returns of Intense's aluminum manufacturing. The short story was that they had over 20 employees and most of the factory devoted to aluminum frame production. Aluminum bike and frame sales had dwindled to half of what the factory was designed to handle. Darkening that picture, frame sales had all but dried up as new customers demanded complete bikes. The reality they faced was that
Intense's successful range of made-in-Asia carbon bikes was subsidizing its manufacturing operation. By the end of 2016, Intense's aluminum production had been shifted to Asia. The factory was converted to a warehouse and that's when I showed up.
There was no turning back for Intense. The market for used manufacturing machinery is pennies on the dollar, and retooling the factory would cost millions. CEO Andrew Herrick said that employees who could not be absorbed into the new Intense were given severance pay and assistance to new employment. Jeff, who designs and builds Intense's aluminum prototypes, kept enough equipment to assemble a king's workshop in a corner of the new warehouse. Steber admitted that shutting down manufacturing
There was no turning back for Intense. The market for used manufacturing machinery is pennies on the dollar, and retooling the factory would cost millions. CEO Andrew Herrick said that employees who could not be absorbed into the new Intense were given severance pay and assistance to new employment. Jeff, who designs and builds Intense's aluminum prototypes, kept enough equipment to assemble a king's workshop in a corner of the new warehouse. Steber admitted that shutting down manufacturing
Intense photo
I know that feeling. I had a small mountain bike manufacturing business. The handful of people who worked beside me were as proud as I was to watch the aluminum and steel we shaped with our hands become painted frames lined up on our wooden racks. We grew up with the business, and so did the mountain bike industry. At some point, I believed that small frame makers like us were going to be eaten alive by established big brands and I made the decision to sell. I remember the day escrow closed. The concrete floor I had walked for a dozen years felt foreign. All of my tools belonged to someone else. The men who forged their dreams to fit into mine had a new employer. Miraculously, I stepped into a new career as the editor of a popular mountain bike magazine, but it was bittersweet. I studied the check in my hand. The voice inside me said I was not going to make bicycles again.
Years later, I paid a visit to my welder, Travis Decker, who now owns a custom sheet metal business. There, surrounded by his massive computerized punches and bending machines, I saw a familiar sight - my old aluminum work table. Travis had purchased it for almost nothing after the new owners decided they had no use for it. Every bicycle I had made had been designed, assembled, welded and aligned on that four by eight foot slab of aluminum. A measure of my soul is locked inside that table, along with crumbs of history that span from the first fillet-brazed, rigid steel mountain bikes to the dawn of full-suspension. That Travis is still using it today is an honor that I can't covey with words.
I drove back to Temecula and, as promised, my prize was waiting - standing alone in the fenced lot. I unloaded the table in my new workshop and inspected it more closely. Its aluminum top was bowed slightly from intense heat and pockmarked by high-voltage arcs. Its unpainted rectangular steel legs had a patina of rust, except for where its previous owner's boots had rested. A haphazardly crafted U-bracket was welded to one side to hold the TIG torch, and a hole near the center that formed a swivel point for heavy welding fixtures bore witness to thousands of aluminum frames that were either tacked together or finish welded on this plain-looking, three-foot-square metal table. It was an honor to have it. A few days later, I fired up my torch and the first project began to rise up from its well-worn surface.
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Because it doesn't have a fake carbon weave graphic like your bike? Sorry but I think that looks like a piece of shit , like a cheap hood on a Honda Civic. Carbon Fibre on bikes doesn't use that pattern for production. I owned a Recluse and now own a new Tracer, I think they look better than any of the other all blacked out bikes that flood the market. People like different things, I think we can both agree on that.
Congratulations, you now own the
"Swingarm Manufacturing Table"
It's not like the rest of the US is crammed with non-boutique builders that are making great bank.I, for one, am sorry that's the case.
Sucks to read this, but I totally get it. Things change.
It is the generic "low cost" carbon bikes that I don't like and these are the ones that are in direct competition to aluminium frames.
On another not Guerrilla Gravity seem to be making Al bikes in the US at a reasonable price.... discuss.
#hightower
#switchblade
#sb5.5
I'm going from plastic back to aluminium and steel. #makemetalgreatagain
For an employee, Cali can be great if you can make enough money to survive and are fortunate enough to not have to deal with a tough commute. The cost of living vs wages ratio is way better in the states you mentioned and damn, I don't miss the Cali commute. Also, I'd rather work in Ogden for Enve than SoCal for Intense. I'll admit that Intense is unique in SoCal though, with roots and a following that helps. Outside Cali all we're seeing is a shitload of their bikes on sale ALWAYS thru Jenson, etc., effectively cheapening their brand. Not sure how they can convince any shops to carry their bikes anymore.
I ride ten times as much in SLC vs when I lived in SoCal because the commute killed all my free time. Northern Utah's a hub for both manufacturing and outdoor sports companies, though we're a little weak in cycling companies (Scott USA, frowny face for Canfield moving to Washington, and I don't consider Fezzari a viable bike company).
Anyway, not a pissing contest. Not saying Intense should relocate and moving from Cali would wreck their street cred and history and negatively affect their sales in that large market. If your business works in Cali then good, but if you can maintain the same sales while reducing operating costs by moving elsewhere whilst simultaneously providing your employees with a better work/life balance, then it's worth looking into.
Couldn't agree more as the alloy colours were stunning!
I know that complete bikes offer a bit of a cost savings but I'm surprised to here this. I personally have never looked to buy a new complete bike. I love the idea of starting with a frame and building up the bike custom with every part that I want.
I love a good custom build as much as the next guy, but in times where my 10000€ bike is worth as good as nothing after about a year i´ll happily choose one of the "cheap" complete offerings out there that offer 99% of the performance the custom build does. Few years ago, that would not have been possible, but let´s face it, todays components all work rather well, so you do only miss out on the geek factor. Whether you have a 40 or Boxxer, it really doesn´t hold you back anymore, so people started to care less and less.
Us bike geeks do not matter that much in the grand scheme of things. It´s just not worth it for a growing business to focus on us.
As a bike mechanic there is alot more to building a bike than most people think. There is building a bike... and then there is building a bike right.
it's even worse when they decide to sell the "+" size version of a bike and to import your own frame you get stung by import taxes..
A good mechanic can build/rebuilt anything motorised or not, thing is there is not much that can be rebuilt on bicycles anymore, its parts replacement.
Just because you do it for a living doesn't mean you can do a basic task any better than someone else. There is no special skills involved here. Does someone who does landscaping for a living cut grass better than the average guy with his own lawnmower? Maybe the landscaper will do it faster but the end product is going to be the same. If you clean houses for a living are you somehow able to mop a floor better than everyone else? No you are not. You are simply providing a service that people don't want do themselves. There are some more complicated things like suspension rebuilds that definitely take some specialized knowledge. But simple assembly of a new bike is not one of them.
Again I'm not trying to shit on bike mechanics here. If that's what you do and make a living off it that's awesome. But don't act like you can bolt a few parts together any better than anyone else just because its your job.
It seems like you're describing a build from a box, which is pre-built, not a true custom build, like you originally stated.
To everyone else - i've been building bikes for 18 years, i've done literally hundreds of builds. I'm the guy that my friends and their friends bring their bikes to to get what they screwed up "done right". Hell i've even fixed the work of local shops on occasion. That said, aside from building a wheel, getting a drivetrain perfectly in tune, and getting hydraulic brakes set up a specific way, there's nothing difficult about building a bike from parts. Many guys I know will build up a complete bike, and even ride it a couple times, then bring it to me to get the brakes and drivetrain "just right". If you are not fussy, you could skip the "just right" part and simply hit the trails with the bike you assembled. I can think of one guy in my riding group right now that is just like that in fact - i've repeatedly offered to tune up his bike but he doesn't really want to take the time to do it, and he rides 3-4 times a week.
And I never degraded anyone's profession. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a landscaper or house cleaner or bike mechanic. But the basics tasks that these jobs provide (like cutting grass) are services of convenience. To stay with this example a good landscaper would definitely have more knowledge than me about advanced things such as drainage, hardscaping, mulching, planting, etc. But when it comes to the part where they cut the grass, its just cutting the grass. Same goes for a bike mechanic. Talk about cranking open a fork or shock and rebuilding a damper, thats all great. I let the pros do that all day. Wheel building, same thing. But bolting my levers on the right distance from my grips? Pre-stretching cables? Come on thats basic stuff.
I'm sorry you are offended by my comments but I am not degrading anyone's professions. Like I said, some aspects of those professions do involve relatively simple tasks. Its not about experience. Its about what you end up with at the end. Whether a landscaper comes and cuts the lawn or someone pulls out their own mower and does it themselves what do you have at the end? The same cut lawn. I know people who run their own landscaping business's and they would never be so silly as to tell someone they couldn't possibly cut their own grass as good as they could. They know they just provide that as a service to people who most of the time just don't want to do it themselves.
And for FindDigeRepeat its a bicycle for christs sake, try milling heads for moto's or sleds or grinding three angle valve seats, milling valve pockets in pistons or lightening rockers the list goes on and on ,that is not just bolt on.
For those that understand no works are needed for those that don't no words will suffice.
And I am Not I repeat Not slagging Bike Mechanics, I like most people who work with there hands and heads, the rest just pay.
I think most people who build bikes up from frames probably have a good idea of what they are doing (or not doing).
The fact is @sino428 is spot on...assembling a bike from the frame up is a joke to those that have done it a few times, and a moderately confusing, but perfectly doable task for those doing it for the first time.
Initial suspension set-up / brake levers... (really? I mean REALLY?) / cable stretching / etc etc etc....all ridiculous attempts to justify having a "pro" assemble your bike. The fact is, the majority of "mechanics" at local bike shops are kids these days as rarely can a shop afford to have well compensated tried and true mechanics working on all of the bikes.
Just about anything can be done, albeit occasionally requiring special tools, simply by browsing the web. I mean look at the tech tuesday parktool articles...it's unreal how much salient information is available in easy to follow formats.
Maybe it's just a california thing, but quite frankly most local bike shops (even those with stellar reputations) have been jacking their service/labor prices up through the roof just to stay solvent. I need a $30-40/brake bleed like a I need a hole in the head.
Let's be real...disassembling and rebuilding a fork isn't something everyone is willing to do...it takes time...it takes patience...and it takes a little knowledge to-bout. But for anything outside of this range of a procedure, there is absolutely no reason why your average joe can't figure how to do anything/everything he needs without stepping foot into a bike shop.
But that wasnt what we were talking about here.
And yes, a tub with a years worth of crust built up on it is a special job, unless you think that is normal.
I'm not worried about anyone messing with my bike that the bike mechanics I know and take my bikes too aren't so full of themselves as to get offended that I dared to put my own bike together. They realize that not everyone needs them to do shit like shorten their chain or adjust their brake levers for them (I still can't believe you tried to say that was difficult and should be done by a mechanic) . And they are more than happy to just handle the things I don't do myself.
It's hard to get too teary eyed over intense though. For a premium, made in America product I sure saw a lot of them with broken and with shoddy welds and misalignments. I wanted them to be great, but they weren't.
And what's special about Intense now? Why is it worth 10 grand? Someone in Spain designs them. Someone in Asian lays the carbon and someone in America designs the stickers? What's the difference between them and YT or Fezzari or a Motobecan. that's the bike industry in 2017. Brands are meaningless
Then again I rode a steel 27.5 plus bike last spring that rode like a cheap aluminum bike. Way too stiff. Had 0 spring and felt totally dead. Pretty much the opposite of what steel should ride like. When I asked the rep why they made it so stiff? He said it's a trail bike and that's the way they ride. I've owned a lot of bikes in my time and, I couldn't disagree more. My Lynsky, my Mad Dog and my 5010 all walk that fine line of being stiff and compliant in all the right places. I've ridden more than a few carbon bikes that are too stiff and dead feeling as well. Both mtn and road. Not all frames are created equal. I'm 180 pounds with gear so it's not like I'm lite. Find the right builder and I don't think you will be disappointed with Ti, Steel, or carbon. But don't be disillusioned by the media and think all bikes these days ride really well. There are still a lot of just ok riding bikes out there.
No debating that, but that sentiment does not automatically mean healthy sales volumes. The NAHBS bikes certainly have abundant pride in ownership and ridership, but I don't think many of those fellas are getting rich doing it, let alone able to capitalize a factory and overhead of workers.
Also- I've talked to the owner of the DH park and he'd love to do a demo day!
"Way back" in the '80s I was an average late-teen with less than average bike skills but read MBA and always thought 2 things: 1) it would be so cool to be Tomac or Overend and 2) it would be cooler if I could build a bike...not assemble it, but build it. I always thought the creators were the coolest.
Fast forward to me picking up a bike after a long absence from riding and I feel I let a good part of life go for no particular reason. I can't wait to get back out this year, and it makes me think of how you must feel as the spark of creation leaps from that table again:
Then..."The voice inside me said I was not going to make bicycles again."
And now...."A few days later, I fired up my torch and the first project began to rise up from its well-worn surface."
I hope that feeling is the same now as it was then. Post a pic when you're done ;-) .
www.blackbirdsf.org/xframe/images/vk2016/vk2016.jpg
www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/v/user_albums/mrkawasaki/mrksmantisprofloater
Jeff... I salute you misty eyed!
Love from Transylvania,
Mx
In this particular case though apparently the Intense customer developed a preference for a drastically different frame material. And maybe that (from my admittedly armchair perspective) may be a trend with those North American brands. Make the highest end frames out of carbon and in many cases shift that manufacturing to the Far East. Obviously the same goes for European brands like YT and Canyon. But there still are quite a few high end frame manufacturers whose top level full suspension frames are made locally and out of metal. Ancillotti, Nicolai, Liteville, Starling... Even the shop where I used to work welds up custom geometry metal (steel) road and trekking frames. Again of course my perspective may be a little single sided as I don't live in North America but am I correct that North America brands (almost) always use carbon for their highest end frames and if so, why?
@parallaxid: I used two examples. One is expensive stuff like cars, the other is relatively cheap stuff like plastics from Tacx and Polisport. Both are made in Europe and are competitive compared to imported goods from Asia. If that can be (be it due to tariffs or not) then something middle ground like a decent bicycle frame should work just as well. Then again it may be related to what @WaterBear mentioned, the margin on cars, tools and components is much bigger than it is on bicycle frames so there is less room to play with pricing.
But that goes a bit beyond my main question. How much cheaper is it to produce in Asia? If Intense would weld up their aluminium frames in Asia to their same standards, how much cheaper would that be? There is also this emotional aspect as people enjoy buying something something made in Europe, North America, OZ, NZ or Japan. So people are willing to pay more. More for something from Hope if made in the UK instead of if they'd have it done (to similar standards) in China.
The reason I mentioned carbon is it strikes me that so many North American companies choose carbon for their frame materials even if it is not their strength. Sure I'm now aware companies like Guerilla Gravity, Foes and Canfield still have their top of the line stuff in aluminium but I'm still under the impression that the top level frames from US brands are more often (not always indeed) from carbon than those from European brands. So my question was, is this true and if so, how come?
I think companies need to play to their strengths and impress us that way. Hope is known for their CNC work so that's what they focus on. Magura is more into injection moulding so that's what they do. Shimano is great with forgings etc. It would be silly for a company like Nicolai to abandon their in house production, let alone replace metal with plastics.
In my mind Intense was on a similar level to Orange bikes and could ask similar prices. With this shift, they moved to the level of YT and Canyon. Great bikes still but you need to ask a much lower price to be competitive.
It's the iPhone effect all over again.
I've seen various articles stating 3-10%. Wages in the far east are rapidly on the rise as well.
Compare guide ultimates to hopes and get back to me.
Compare GG Megatrail to whatever aluminum Chinese wonder rig you'd like and the results will be similar.
Considering that virtually all of the per-frame cost is tied up in just two things (labor, and fixed costs for dies/molds/autoclaves) after the initial design investment with finite element analysis and some ride testing is done, there is no logical reason that a high end Trek/Specialized/Yeti/SantaCruz/Intense frame on a volume model would cost meaningfully more than twice the open-mold option after enough of them are made: so that's still a ~400% margin on the frame realistically, and OEM pricing on the parts for complete items...
In case anybody is wondering why the direct sales brands are able to bring so much disruption into this market, deeight just drove the nail in flush with one hammer strike here.
You left 'materials' out of your per-frame cost but otherwise what you're saying makes sense. Could be some variability in the raw materials, especially since Big Red S has super-duper McLaren black-ops stuff.
Maybe that extra margin goes to warranty claims? Kind of like our USA predicament with Social Security. Nah.
[If you think I'm being ridiculous about this, consider that the biggest game changer in the industry of the past decade has been devising a way to house and actuate an off-the-shelf office chair gas cartridge inside a seatpost. Legitimately brilliant, and totally redefines entire genres of bikes can do; but not at the bleeding edge of human understanding].
Most of the margins for bike companies are really just for risk hedging - so many ideas are serious flops, and the cost of missing trends is quite high, so what may externally look a bit like profiteering is actually just structural resilience in the way they do business.
The iPhone effect? When I started my current job four years ago my boss asked me what color iPhone I wanted? What, I was responsible for a 700 euro fragile piece of equipment in my pocket, what for? Well for the occasional text and call. Alright then, get me the SIM card and I stick it in my dual sim Nokia 101 (currently upgraded to Nokia 107 as the 101 proved insufficiently dust proof unlike the 1000 and 1200 I had before that). The iPhone effect? That would be like if I'd date a rich girl and have diner at her parents place. "Hey see, that glass you're drinking from? It is really special, costs 700 euros." I'd go all shaky, drop it or crush it in my fist.
@tehllama: The material is closely related to the production process and that's where it gets expensive (or where corners could be cut). It takes much more labor to make a frame from dry fibres or even pre-preg carbon than it takes to weld from metal tubes. And cutting titanium or Reynolds 853 steel is much more taxing on cutting tools than cutting aluminium. With carbon there is also wear on the molds. So maybe a big name brand says this mold is good enough for so many products after which it is a write-off. And that may be where the manufacturer says that they still can get quite a few more cheaper products out of it. It may not be up to the standards of the big name brands, but admittedly still good enough to be sold at a lower price. At least that's what I expect to happen. That is, I don't think the big name brands will tolerate it if the manufacturer will use their molds and cause wear whilst they weren't done with it yet.
@schofell84: Agree it is a bit of a blanket statement if taken out of the context of the article. But in context of the article the question is: how much cheaper is it for Intense to have their frames produced by that particular manufacturer in the far east instead of do it at their own facilities.
I know firsthand how rough Titanium is on tooling (even making comparatively flimsy satellite parts), and that does very significantly drive end cost - but in terms of proportion to realistic retail prices, that's actually pretty much in line with what Ti frames sell for. In the precision regime required to make bikes, the tool life can be worked around (at least the skilled and creative metalworkers and machinists I worked with are great at it) to where the difference is actually pretty minor when averaged out by individual units sold.
I do suspect that all but a few brands have some restrictions on what happens with molds after they're worn beyond comfortable tolerances, but those are honestly the ideal ones to use for destructive testing on the QA side, because if the first bike made after the mold is no longer in use still meets minimum testing standards, then one can be sure that at least in the process sense, the last bike to enter the customer pipeline is GTG.
It really is a case where the aesthetics possible with composites are a huge driver - coupled with the fact that a lot of the headline figures look more attractive (overall weight, stiffness under pedaling load). That alone can justify the higher price, especially since the same 6061 AL material is shared on many bikes all the way back to the elastomer days - so carbon fibre looks new and exotic.
Considering how few riders actually beat on their equipment hard, the differential is pretty trivial - most people would rather be seen with a piece of crap phone that has an apple logo on one side and a shattered screen on another than have a perfectly functional Nokia brick - that's just the way it is. The larger and higher margin market is what always drives development, and the users that actually do use every capability available (including ruggedness) are always so far in the margin that it's never cost-effective to develop stuff just for them.
Interesting to think I've touched at least one of these welding tables, maybe both at different times in their history.
These (RC, and Intense) were 2 of the biggest puzzle pieces for me in the past 27+ years in the saddle, though until this moment they were 2 somewhat separate, disconnected orbits... the hanging out / riding with RC one, and the... for 10 plus years there was nothing I would ride besides Intense one... various forms of the original Uzzi SL (the Horst Link version... I skipped all of those early VPP bikes... handled like wretched stinkbugs... but I digress...)
RC's shop, and his Thursday night rides at Chino Hills and Anaheim Hills had become a vibrant mini-scene, and along with places like the Bike Beat made up a thriving community in those early days of mountain biking.
I was revelllng in this new sport and these coolest of people that I'd discovered and quickly connected with.
Soon had the amazing privilege to meet and hang (or try to hang!) with passionate riders like RC, Big Ring Eddie, Katrin (aka Katwoman), and so many others who helped to shape these years, my skills and me as a human.
RC would regularly put the hurt on us while also imparting sage wisdom on subjects you might expect such as riding technique, bike setup and fitness... and these nuggets still stick with me to this day. I often find myself reverting to the fundamentals that he taught so many years ago... and still find myself quoting / plagerising him when helping new(er) riders advance their skills.
But as I got to know him more, it became apparent that there really was very little boundaries or ceiling on the subjects that he could philosophize at length about. We used to joke that he had the world's worst case of "Male Answer Syndrome" (you know the guy... who must concoct an elaborate answer or story, rather than ever utter the words "I don't know".
The only difference was... RC's knowledge and experience base WAS that broad... and he could actually back it up.
I'm not sure there's another "life philosopher" I've had - who's sometimes random / often practical nuggets of wisdom have stuck with me on a deeper level. Here's one that just popped into my head now (to closely paraphrase):
"Instead of focusing on the physical attraction, you should find someone who you really enjoy talking to and being with... because we all end up looking like farm animals anyway."
Tell the truth... how many times would that have kept you out of trouble?!
RC is one of the most creative problem solvers I've ever met. If there's a doctorate in MacGuyver Engineering, he's teaching the class.
As some of you may or may not know, he has quite a background in pioneering and developing the early frame and suspension designs.
At some point the great John Tomac needed a new "DH" sled that was worthy of him, and his current employer / sponsor / bike company Raleigh didn't have a clue.
So RC was hired to design, develop and bring this new and groundbreaking machine to life.
If you've ever seen pics of Johnny T hauling on a black framed with raw swingarm and seatstays bike, with the shock mounted to a rocker/swing link just below the top tube (like the later Rocky Mountain Element or Giant ATX 990), probably with a pie plate for a chainring and a disc rear wheel, that was RC's creation.
s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a8/0a/a3/a80aa3b27444bfd5bad905cd26129d27.jpg
If I remember correctly, Johnny T soon switched to Giant, and the same frame may have just been resprayed in yellow and rebadged as a Giant... or maybe Giant just quickly made a copy. I don't know or remember. It made the basis for the Giant ATX 990.
Being invited into this inner sanctum had allowed me to witness these heady days (and formative, transformational years) of the sport we all love, with both a birds-eye view and at the same time microscopically up close.
In these days of pre-CAD bike design it was fascinating to watch RC work his magic.
He actually WAS using “CAD”… what he called “Cardboard Aided Design”, with card stock and push pins representing links and pivot points, stuck to a regular cork pinboard. Crude but effective!
These were the times RC was alluding to in the post - a time when people actually made shit with their bare, grubby hands - because they could… and because they had no other choice.
So one day as the JT prototype is on wheels and getting ready for testing, RC says to me (something to the effect of) “Hey, you’re a pretty strong rider, you’re about the same size as Johnny T… why don’t you take this out for a few weeks and try and break it.”
Well… as as a wide-eyed “kid” just a few years out of high school, taking this all in… I may as well have been Neil Armstrong after the moon landing! What a memorable and thrilling moment (and few weeks!)
And no… I wasn’t able to break it ;-) But I will say… it was a magical riding and handling machine that easily surpassed anything I had ridden up to this point. It was amazing and exhilarating to be the only guy to ride Johnny T’s bike before he did!
Thanks for the great memories and wisdom RC!
I did not know they shut down production, and don't remember reading it on here.
Yet another group of employees laid off because the Chinese can do it 'cheaper'.
It's no wonder why the Chinese are coming here to Kalifornistan with WADS OF CASH, buying up
everything in sight.
A -complete a*shole- Chinese national offered me $50k less than what I was asking for my house a few weeks ago-again-
because he had cash, and was of the opinion that we Americans are inferior in business, thus he could steal my house from me. I told my realtor to not even respond(which she didn't obey, but did tell the prick 'no').
We Americans happily shop at Walmart because we can save 30-cents on fricken toothpaste, oblivious to the fact that WE are responsible for this shit happening.
I've personally never shopped there, nor will buy Chinese made goods if I can avoid it.
Now it looks like another bike manufacturer has become dead to me
Guess it's because we all look and sound the same to you.
Carry on.
If you lived in a country that wasn't owned by another from the get-go, you'd understand
@ledude:
Doesn't it get tiring looking for posts that you can pretend to get butt-hurt over?
Probably his offer had nothing to do with an opinion of you. In my experience the Chinese students feel like fish out of water in this country.
Not an article but a class,the teacher is non other than Paul Brody.
Some of his other projects
flashbackfab.com
Some years ago when you were getting one of their frames you were getting a piece of equipment built by specialized workers who, most likely, loved their job and put dedication in to it. With carbon you just get a sterile part built by asian girls who don't even care about bikes. For them building a frame, an ipad or a toaster is the same.
I still don't care much about carbon, maybe I will one day, but for now I am more interested in other materials like different steel alloys and aluminium.
Foes will soon take the aluminium Intense lovers/fans and grow their business a bit.
The idea of pride, honour and hard work has died. Nothing is built to last anymore, no one make's money on something that just goes, and goes, and goes. Nobody make's money on a product you yourself can maintain and manage (I.E Swedish bicycle manufacturer Cresent, who put more work in the "service" side than actually improving their bikes, sure they make shitty ass commuters, but still). Everything is made in China. And i can get that, but still, something is f*cked beyond words..
There is no honour, only Instagram, there is no pride, only facebook.
Start eating them redpills boys and girls. Today.
There was something about having something made in your own backyard. These days, everything come from somewhere else. What's still made here? I would say produce, but even some come from China like garlic. For Christ's sake, can't we grow our own garlic?
I wish those who were laid off from Intense the best, and hope they find employment soon.
Firewire has been widely accepted in a once custom only market , made in Thailand and on consignment all over the world with 11 time world champion Kelly Slater backing them .
Imagine Specialized consigning bikes to shops with an 11 time world champion . :-)
That would change the industry a bit .
I rode one of your Mantis Pro Floater with that Noleen shock bikes back in the day. Next after that was an Uzzi SL (broke it). Followed by another Uzzi SL (broke it). Followed by an Uzzi SLX. I moved away from Intense after that as they moved to VPS.
Hearing this somehow feels like the circle is complete. One door closes, another opens...
Intense made great bikes (with a leased/copied VPP linkage design). It's a very sad and unfortunate day for the dedicated and loyal employees of this company. People that stuck with the company and believed in its vision and its potential. However, I have no compassion for JS at all....your personal CEO or whatever title you give yourself ambitions are the direct cause of these events. You've lost your direction trying to be the next giant or specialized when you could have been just fine making great hand made aluminum bikes. You also had the arrogance of thinking people would buy your products at 15000$ CDN. Guess what JS....the public has spoken. Your greed cost a lot of good people their livelihood. I hope you sleep well JS.
I, for one, just bought myself a nice new reasonably priced TY Tues.
The ride felt sluggish, the setup was unnecessarily heavy and the geometry didn't feel comfortable. It was a very stable bike though, i guess that was it's strong point.
The further i got immersed in the sport the more i kept hearing about how my '06 (bought used) Stinky was so fragile, the geometry was so bad, it was bound to snap due to fatigue, etc.
Years later Intense M6 bikes kept showing up in the workshop with their swingarms snapped at the welds, the linkage also cracked in multiple sections rendering the frames unusable. Inexplicably, my brittle kona kept enduring whatever i could throw at her no matter what.
Last year my left swingarm cracked afterall. I got it professionally reinforced and welded for €50 (luckily i didn't pay retail price).
I still ride my bike whenever/wherever i feel like. As for the handmade Intense M6 frames that kept showing cracked at the workshop...
...that will be around €150+ for each rocker arm ordered from the official website.
/rant
Why oh Why did they stop making Tazers, I'm sure they would have sold well right?
www.pinkbike.com/photo/10521192
mombat.org/MOMBAT/BikeHistoryPages/Mantis.html
goo.gl/photos/CiJqtVCzA9uhzRew8
goo.gl/photos/CiJqtVCzA9uhzRew8
Middle America is so desperate they'd vote for pretty much anyone who promises anything even remotely referring to jobs. And America picked one who's been successfully sued by the DOJ, twice.
Dont get me wrong i really want to know about the taxing thing, i just dont see any changes yet.
Dont get me wrong i really want to know about the taxing thing, i just dont see any changes yet.
One can make it a personal mandate to support small companies, and I applaud that, however, every issue is not simply black and white and not every company is not simply 'good' or 'bad'.