Go and read the comment section of any website and you'll probably find that a lot of them are a bit like herpes: Usually well-mannered and, despite a nasty reputation, things don't flare up too often. Mention e-bikes on a cycling website, however, and the angst will boil out of control until it explodes. As for me, I'm no fan of electric bikes, but I also couldn't care less how you spend your time; you go do you, even if that requires a motor.
There ain't no upside to herpes, but there certainly could be an upside to electric bikes despite a lot of us acting like they're some sort of existential threat to mountain biking. Go ahead and come down off your high horse because they're not, but they are breeding the type of components that many riders want for their acoustic bikes.
No, I'm not trying to force an e-bike vaccination onto you here, but just give me a few minutes to make my case...
Rocky Mountain's Altitude Powerplay 70 features e-bike-specific parts like Fox's beefed up 36 and SRAM's EX1 drivetrain bits. Those electric-centric components might make sense on many mountain bikes, too.
When you're motor-doping, you have an extra 250-ish watts at your disposal that, depending on how you feel about weights and intervals, is roughly double the power that a lot of riders can hold for an hour straight. Those extra ponies mean that the nuances of gearing selection are a bit less important than when it's solely down to your muscles, and also that some drivetrain parts probably need to be beefed up. Enter SRAM's e-bike-focused EX1 XG-899 cassette that has an 11 to 48-tooth spread (436-percent range) over just eight cogs.
If you're one of those people who have fond memories of fewer gears and more robust parts, the all-steel EX1 cassette might be the ticket.
Not only does the EX1 stack fit onto a normal, non-XD freehub body, it also sports 10-speed cog spacing that could be less finicky for some. Compared to a skinnier 12-speed chain, the EX1 version is said to be more robust and better suited to the straighter chain line that comes with using the EX1 block. Downsides?
The EX1 cassette isn't inexpensive or lightweight, and the 30-ish-percent gaps between each cog are far too strange feeling for my legs. That said, it might make a lot of sense for a rider who's more focused on sessioning jumps and drinking wobbly pops than someone who likes to cover a lot of ground during a ride and thinks about silly things like how much their bike weighs.
There's an EX1 shifter, too, that's really just a 10-speed changer with modified internals to make it a more straightforward single-click unit. Combine those bits with a sturdy crankset and derailleur and you could have a stout, wide-range drivetrain that requires less tinkering than the latest 20-something-speed cassette. It should also reduce the chance of your drivetrain self-destructing from you doing nothing besides looking at it wrong, which is something I often read about in the comment sections but have yet to see in person.
If longer lasting, less finicky wide-range drivetrains make sense, e-bike-specifc brakes are surely a no-brainer.
Gwin's TRP brakes were originally designed for use on e-bikes, not World Cup-winning downhill sleds.
You know who agrees with me? A guy named Aaron Gwin, who has a well-deserved rep for being a genius on the binders, and who has also been using a set of TRP's e-bike brakes on his World Cup-winning YT Tues. TRP had originally delivered a set of their G-Spec E-MTB brakes to Gwin's teammate, Neko Mulally, who went and won the US National Championship with them on his bike. Gwin got on a set shortly after that, and both guys have been using them ever since.
Yup, Aaron and Neko have been using e-bike brakes.
What's different between the E-MTB brake and TRP's normal stoppers? About 0.5mm in rotor thickness. Most standard rotors come in at 1.8mm, but TRP's E-MTB rotor measures 2.3mm thick. That extra material makes a difference in heat management, TRP says, with more steel meaning that more heat can be absorbed before it starts affecting the rest of the system at the extreme end of their intended use. They even have numbers: 8-percent lower temps and a 47-percent improvement in ''resistance to deformation under braking.''
It should also mean that the rotor is less likely to bend when it makes that inevitable contact with rocks and roots.
You can't just go and use a thicker rotor, though, as the caliper opening must also be a touch wider, which it is on TRP's G-Spec E-MTB stopper. The pistons are the same and will always self-correct to however thick the disc is, of course. If you're chunkier than the average rider, spend all day and every day in the bike park, or just need more consistent braking, this setup could be ideal. Don't be surprised to see an off-the-shelf version intended for acoustic bikes down the road.
E-bike components are usually (always?) heavier than parts intended for non-motorized use, but it's clear that a lot of riders don't give a shit about the increase in grams just as long as there's a corresponding increase in reliability. It's probably a safe bet to say that this applies to the all-too-common creaky fork crown and steerer tube assemblies more than anywhere else on our bikes. Pinkbike member
@BCDragon called me out in the comment section for not taking fork manufacturers to task for this seemingly unfixable issue that most of us have had to deal with at some point, and you know what? The guy is 100-percent correct.
It's simply unacceptable that creaky CSUs are so common, be it on a $300 fork or a $1,000 fork, and while the engineering challenges of dealing with the leverage that a fork puts on its CSU has been explained to me, I don't care. This issue should have disappeared with square taper bottom brackets and cantilever brakes, but it hasn't. Instead, it's stuck around like herpes. Using an e-bike specific fork shouldn't be the answer, of course, but it could be the best solution you have right now.
E-bikes weigh more and have the potential to be ridden faster thanks to the surplus 250-ish watts, so some suspension companies offer forks with beefed up crowns, steerer tubes, and stanchions that should do a better job of brushing off your hucking. The real solution is a one-piece crown and steerer tube that would eliminate the chance of groaning between what would usually be a press-fit joint.
You know, much like what X-Fusion and Öhlins use. It's more expensive to manufacture, no doubt, and the stanchion and crown interface can still creak, but it's certainly the right way to do things. But in lieu of suspension companies doing that, an e-bike slider, with its burlier chassis, might be the solution for those who are sick and tired of their creaky $1,000 fork.
Our electric cousins might also have the answer for those who struggle to keep their wheels somewhat round and knobs on their expensive and practically disposable tires. DT Swiss, among others, offers a high-quality wheelset with thicker gauge spokes, thicker rim walls, and a steel freehub body, three things that make a lot of sense when you're hard on your hoops or if you have double the watts at your fingertips.
There are a host of electric-centric components that make sense on a mountain bike, including wheels, tires, drivetrain parts, and brakes. What else can you think of?
It's a bit less obvious when we get to tires, though, as who would actually want the firmer, and therefore less grippy rubber compound that some e-bike-specific tires are made of? Oh, I don't know, maybe everyone who's sick and tired of burning up $100 or more every time they're faced with some pointy rocks. You can get longer lasting compounds on normal tires, for sure, but they're often combined with a casing that was intended for anything but pointy rocks. But e-bike rubber is designed and tested for the increased weight and speed of a motorized "mountain bike,'' which could also make them great for people who ride like they're leaving a car meet in a 5.0L Mustang. Like to skid? Me too, which is why I don't want - or need - rubber that has more in common with an eraser than a mountain bike tire.
I get it, there are (always) land access concerns and also that, somewhere deep down inside you might feel like our little two-wheeled tribe is being threatened. It's not, though; things will roll on and we'll figure it out together - if anything needs to be figured out at all - but in the meantime, it might make sense for some of us to take a closer look at our motorized cousins.
Herpes isn't going anywhere and neither are e-bikes or the angst-filled comments against them. But unlike herpes, there could be an upside to having e-bikes around.
Any engineering nerds know if the physics behind heavier rider/lighter bike changes things vs heavier bike/lighter rider?
Surely weight on the bike is dynamically different than on the rider but something like a fork or wheels still sees that weight.
In the case of the forks, the crowns are stronger, less likely to bend when the bike hits something, like a tree, at pace.
Some of it is marketing, and some parts do make sense to reinforce for an Ebike.
@LukeBurgie - it takes. General public always chooses lighter parts over heavier ones.
These bikes will probably have higher velocities, and therefore they need better/stronger brakes
Altough, when you ride some dh laps my arguments don't worth anything
1)Can you tell a difference between a 12kg bike and 16kg bike? I bet you can (and its a biiig one). If you weigh 75kg it makes only a 5% difference of the total weight.
2)with enduro ebikes you will descend and decelerate more than on standard enduro bikes given the amount of energy that you can produce troughout the whole day of riding.
The truth is, that if you buy heavier parts though, it does not mean they will have better longevity. I just don't get why are you fuming. It should be an advantage for you, that now you can get sturdier parts (although marketed as ebike, so try forget the e-marketing).
And anyway, that's @mikelevy's whole point: eMTB "specific" or not, a lot of these parts have applications for acoustic riders as well.
Like in this Santa Cruz video (From 2:30) - www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5eMMf11uhM - I think that's where your adding the extra weight, with the added weight of the bike itself behind it. I may be wrong, but that's how I see it being affected.
Freeride never died, its just called Enduro now...
Hoping this "marketing" loop comes to an end, I personally feel its hurting the industry itself.
What would you rather see??
When it comes to forks i don't feel like this applies as much. The fact that the revelation is a 35mm fork now makes me so happy. When ,my kids move up to a 650b bike they'll actually have a decent option.
More apt comparison; Cricket Vs Baseball. Both games where you hit a ball with a stick and run about a bit. Show up with a cricket bat to a baseball diamond and you should expect to sit on the sidelines.
I’d rather see my bike falling apart less. Than almost anything.
@vid1998 you can’t cut 25% of total mass by just changing tubing diameter and thickness of stanchions. They cut our plenty from the crown, decreased insert depth of the steerer, cut down meat at axle mount, changed what already was a shitty axle interface (1st gen Maxle) to a more functional yet structurally less sound solution. Fox continued with excellent lower leg design until 2015, then followed the trend catering to people too stupid and too lazy to undo clamping bolts/QRs before screwing out the axle. The first Pike was surely overbuilt but the current one is a Reba on steroids, with a proper damper. I don’t even know why Revelation exists since one can buy a 150 Reba
Still I'm not sure why everyone is b*tching. You seem to agree with Levy that tougher simpler parts can be worth the weight penalty. I know I've been saying it for years.
www.pinkbike.com/news/review-schwalbe-eddy-current-tires.html
Sorry
@taletotell - I meant descending, we don't have many turns over here that can test the tyre stability. I mean you can tear the crap out of any tyre when you session corners but you won't necessarily do it on a regular ride, whereas in big mountain it is nothing weird to start slashing tyres. We need to travel to get such places, Hafjell being closest. When it comes to climbing around here... good luck with assumptions... a 2,5h of Swedish "stig" ridden at good pace will fist any fireroad warrior up to the throat. Simply because hills are steep and techy.
I just feel like it's relative to, how should I put this; you know- reality.
www.power-pedals.com/legends-of-cycling-power-output-watts
What do you think I meant with stupid light parts? I tell you what I meant because you missed. I meant dumb German components like bars under 100g, 100mm stems at 80g, alloy seatposts at 140g, cranksets like clavicula, carbon hubs with ceramic bearings, tyres like thunderburt, rims like ztr olympic. Mr Gustav aka Dangerholm who built his Scotts at stupid weights still kept basic levels of sanity, even though his bike was 7kg. He said himself he could probably cut 300g more if he used real stupid parts available for purchase. Gunn Rita Dahle broke a carbon bar during the race, was it the fault of carbon? Only if she crashed with it before and didn’t care about visible damage. But more likely, she used one of stupid light bars. Or a bar from Ali Express. Alloy bars don’t mean more reliable than carbon. What are you on about? There are enough dweebs making light alu bars with no tests to support their products. 9kg hardtail is fkng light by all standards, anything below is playing with fire, always. If you need a lighter bike you better show me your number plate with UCI XCO world cup written on it. And finally there is no more proof needed to say that XC WC Has some lunatics around, other than those aluminium magic bricks. Inever said other discplines don’t have lunatics. Look at Fabien Barel for crying out loud.
I don’t keep destroying my parts. If you want a piece of me get a higher level first. It may motivate you to get educated in the process
You think wc level racer is using Ali express bars? Dude You're on meth if you think that. Perhaps you should go ride your bike instead of spewing nonsense on pinkbike, it might do you some good. A bike under 14k in unreliable? Ha
And people think Ford was first... it was the first production oriented assembly line plant for autos (not even the first assembly line production).
Benz is generally thought to have invented the automobile, other companies were selling much more expensive cars... Ford was cheaper, but far from cheap.
Between the hard, high quality steel in the cassette and the thiccer 8 speed chain (which really does seem to be just a slightly reshaped 8 speed chain, thing retails for $25 US), the package should hopefully last some time under even the dumbest and least co-ordinated of riders.
It's $400.
my regular 11-36 cassette is $30. When I wear them out I buy a new one.
They shift great.
But bike components can be compared as they are all very similar.
Ford made less expensive cars than their competition- he was a first mover thanks to use taylorism... He wanted to make inexpensive cars... I dont see alot of bike companys trying to make inexpensive parts.
Im staying by my word that mtbing is becoming the new golf for many people
First movers are just people / companys who have an idea and make use of it...nowhere it is mandatory for them to be expensive... A lot of companys are first movers trough cost leadership.
"the ex1 cassette is stupid, period."
As @supermike306 said the EX1 "cassette is made from tooling steel so should be very hard and therefore hardwearing. This is the material that would normally be used to cut the teeth of normal cassettes-therefore this is more difficult and expensive to manufacture".
But, hey, don't let fact based logic stop you.
What logic? It costs more to make so they charge more, yes I get that. No part of that makes it a good idea.
The adversting is neuronic! Totally agreed.
"You'll still be you if you ride an ebike"
"Ride farther not harder"
At my local shop the one and only e-bike has been sitting there for over a year. Can I then say that ebikes don't even rise to the level of niche product?
Now that's a funny turn of events......
#1 - Marketing
#2 - Marketing
#3 - Marketing
This was told to him by a very successful owner of a multi-million dollar medical device company.
STOP IT.Ebikes are great and awesome for what they are but they’re arent mountain bikes.Just like I have zero interest in road bikes , this crap will be the end of me browsing your site if I see one more ebike related article.You’re not being clever at all, In fact, its an insult to your readers intelligence.
With that being said, ebikes are indeed awesome for some people and Im glad it allows more people to ride and support the industry buying new gear and stuff.I just hope THEY ,not us mountain bikers but EBIKERS work things out with landowners ASAP before some dumbass ebikers f*cks shit up and ends up sue someone they shouldn’t be suing or getting sued.So far they have seem to be relying on local people and mtn biking associations to figure that stuff out... Not cool.
Lastly, like its already been said, manufacturers just need to start making better parts across the board and stop coming up with lame marketing excuse...
NO MORE EBIKE CONTENT, WE ARE NOT IMBECILES.
This article is clearly a pathetic attempt to bring Ebikes into the conversation ... Please show me all the numerous articles on how BMX parts, road bikes, hec even motorcycle and automotive parts have applications beyond their respective industries?... I know they are out there but we see maybe ONE of those every 2-3 years and its generally a brief mention of the product origins ..NOT an entire article. This one is an whole essay about Ebike parts?Lets just see how many lame attempt to tap into the EBike market Pinkbike has made over the last year...I counted 5 in the last year alone.
Im sorry you are unable to see what this article is all about, TALKING ABOUT EBIKES IN HOPES TO GENERATE NEW INCOMES...Again, all stoked for those who likes Ebikes, start you own associations, ask Pinkbike to launch a PinkEbike page so I dont have to see these irrelevant insults to my intelligence.
What is so hard for Pinkbike to understand? Is their office only populated with morons? Others have done it ,like GMBN for instance, they have a EMBN channel, why cant Pinkbike do something as simple as launching a new website?
But even GMBN, they just can't stick to their channels, they have to shove it up once in a while, more or less like this article. lol, it's kinda hilarious all the effort.
I am in favour of thinking critically of the industry—and think some great points have been brought up here in regards to innovation slowing down because of eMTB. I just don't like the suggestion that we're eMTB shills. We're not. Maybe the global eMTB cabal is sending my cheques to the wrong address...
I never suggested you were a Ebike Shill,again, twisting my words, Pinkbike is all about the dollar figures regardless of what its core readers wants...Just read the other comments for f*cks sakes, Im not the only one who pointed the obvious
Furthermore nobodies head exploded, no blood from the eyeballs because we were using roadie stuff. Everyone needs to calm down and put the tin foil hats away.
“We want stronger parts, our bikes always break and things are made too light for our gnar” - everyone
“Hey have you seen this e-bike stuff, it’s just what you’re after” - Mike Levy
“BURN IT WITH FIRE, BURN MIKE, BURN ME IM TAINTED BY EBIKE. MY EYES ARE BLEEDING AND MY HEAD IS GONNA EXPLODE” - everyone.
Expecting others, outside your immediate family, to alter their behaviour to meet your specific needs, will never happen. Don't waste your time expecting that Pinkbike will. As a website, Pinkbike answers to number of clicks, not whingey complaints.
Here's a solution that Pinkbike does in fact respond to: don't click on the ebike articles FFS! Benefits? Two! First, we don't have to read your whining about being 'forced to read' about ebikes, and second, you aren't adding to the number of clicks on ebike articles. Win, win for all of us.
If you're digging that deep into the justification bin doesn't that tell you something?
That said, I think it's nice that some previously ignored market segments (eg. those who want durable wide range 8-spd) are able to reap some benefits of eMTB product development.
Exactly what I've been saying since I saw the first e-mtb being promoted here.
We all could be riding better and cheaper bikes if the money spent on e-mtb R&D was spent and saved the right way.
Affordable tough cassette ? SunRace 8 speed 11/40 cassette
Want powerful brakes ?
Saint and Codes
Why wouldn't a motor bike need heavier stronger parts? All motor bike use heavier stronger parts.
I ride a mountain bike. No interest in motor bikes.
E bikes are great for commuting.
Why do I never see anything about non motorized commuter bikes? Road bikes with knobbies?
Cross bikes ect,
Nope. But yes let's talk about motor bikes?
Now it's pretty stupid to certify a DH tire with the legend "for off-road use only" to match the conditions described above but then again the whole moped market is new and far from mature, so you end up with garbage legislation like that.
The entire premise of the ebikes for MTB market is dependent upon trail access. The thinking being that if you can "get away" with riding these things on trails that you generally AREN'T allowed to ride a dirt bike on, you have the potential to create a much larger segment.
Think about how much the customer base expands when you remove the fitness barrier...
These heavier stronger easier and cheaper to produce parts cost even more than the fragile lightweight throwaway harder and more expensive to produce parts?
Ahhhh the double ended dildo of the bike industry.
Let’s f*ck them however we can!
The common thread is that all these companies, big and small, are allocating their limited development money to ebikes.
Ebikes are killing DH bikes. Can’t blame the bike companies for following the money.
End rant. Great article Mike!
Most of Mountain Biking culture doesn't share the same values as ebike culture, so stop ramming it down our throats telling us it's good and we'll like it if we try it.
#mtbmetoo #stopebikerape #idontwantyourbatteryinthere #pinkbikestopraping #ebikesareherpes #boycottEpinkbike
m.pinkbike.com/news/introducing-the-transition-petrol-video-2017.html
It's the buyers who create the dilemma in the first place. I don't know who would want to "cheat" the climb only to descend on a 50-lb bike (old, fat Gen-X'ers? Millenials?), but there must be a lot of them.
Freeride never died, its just called Enduro now...
Hoping this "marketing" loop comes to an end, I personally feel its hurting the industry itself.
The entire mtb industry, like most commercial enterprises, is based on selling you overpriced and overrated "stuff", with a less than desirable price vs realistic life expectancy. Everything is a consumable, welcome to the 21st century. If eMTB is the motivation companies need to create more durable components, that's a win in my books. Whether or not you waste your money on those products, or the gold plated super light components you would buy otherwise, is entirely at your peril. If the product sucks, annoy the shit out of the company who made it, you don't vote only with your wallet, and you are certainly wasting your energy (like me) pi**ing and moaning on PB. Go ride your bike, and remember everyone else has the choice to ride whatever they want!
~Best Comment Winner!
Ahem.... gearbox.
I don't have a problem with e-bikes personally. What does concern me is how the wider MTB community has such a strong constitution for consuming and holding down the marketing guff that's now trying to get us to by gear that's not really designed for our bikes at all... Genius!
I’m interested to hear what wheels, and brakes you have tried. I understand the idea behind the fork but there are plenty of non e-bike wheels and brakes that work great and don’t need an “e” branded version.
@fox if your going to charge 1500+ CAD for a fork, I better see some solutions / progress being made towards fixing the issue.
Still a good thing for TRP to have gotten the YT mob team in the bank for development and testing, but they really need better performing brakes (without loosing on the reliability or toughness!)
In my opinion, this "ebike" specific concept is really close to "Enduro" specific concept.
"...the chance of your drivetrain self-destructing from you doing nothing besides looking at it wrong, which is something I often read about in the comment sections but have yet to see in person."
Well done!
I wonder how the dating action is on the HIV websites?
As for the ebike specific parts, I can understand why tyres and drivetrain components need that extra strength as they will be directly effected by the extra torque from the motor. And if you’re going through the “normal” equivalent of those components at a higher than normal rate then I see no issue in using ebike specific parts as a replacement. But you’d have to be an absolute powerhouse or never maintain your bike (or both) to really need that extra strength.
I can kinda understand the need for stronger brakes on ebikes too. As the motor will allow you to gather more speed than you otherwise could on some sections of trail and you’ll therefore need to brake harder and/or for longer to slow yourself so you need brakes that will deal with that extra heat build-up on a more regular basis. However for there to be a really noticeable difference you’d have to ride the thing bloody fast everywhere and leave your braking as late as possible. Like Aaron Gwin I suppose... Though the reason he uses TRP ebike brakes could be because their normal brakes are generally crap, they are just slightly fancier Tektro’s after all.
As for the creaking fork CSU issues, this shouldn’t be an issue at all in this day and age. And ebike specific forks with a more “over-engineered” CSU should be the norm if that’s what it takes to prevent the issue. Or a one piece unit as suggested I the article.
The other way around, I'm seeing more and more previously mountainbike specific components on commuter bikes with pedal assist which (contrary to maybe the North American scene) completely dwarfs the eMTB market. Powerful hydraulic disc and rim brakes in particular. I think the entry price for these has dropped to half what they were a decade ago not in the least because the market has doubled. It doesn't hurt these companies, it doesn't the end consumer. I don't really see what's not to like.
Reading these comments it seems kind of painful to realize that the mountainbike scene has matured so much that it has become conservative. It doesn't seem willing to adopt a product initially marketed outside their safe space. Not even so long ago gravity athletes were using road racing rear mechs, wearing MX clothing and all that. Now Mike comes along and says "hey look, they've developed a product that could be interesting for us unassisted mountainbike riders too" and people go mental. If this sounds like you, sit down, double check your pacemaker and put on some soothing music. You're getting old.
Controversy creates readership....which creates $$$$. Every voice (mine included) added to this "tempest in a teapot" makes for a bigger (and more profitable?) self-licking ice cream cone.
Thanks, Mike, for getting us to stretch our mindset and maybe appreciate that other disciplines' progress might also improve ours.
Problem is, I'm not very open to the geo on ebikes, nor the prices on the good ones. Pole Stamina-like geo at a more affordable price would get me to be interested. Mubea-like gearbox and high pivot would be a bonus.