Tantrum Cycles, NOW Helmets, and Swagman Racks - Interbike 2017

 I believe we're all living in the past and that guy is living in 2030. Welcome to the new future.

 Probably the most lousy video I've ever watched. Like not even kidding. I think they found some random hikers to that have never rode to film their promo video with. Jesus I'm literally face palming

 That was probably the worst thing I've ever seen.

 That made me want an ebike said nobody.

 In Moto Parilla's defense, the video gets infinitely better at the 1:30 mark...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rwylqSsN0I

 "to see footage of a rider teetering on the brink of disaster as he rides through a grassy field" - I thought MK (not RC) was exaggerating, but NOT EVEN!!! Damn. That bike looks sketchier than I could have possibly imagined.

 ...a 75 pound ebike made with carbon on fat wheels. I can't wait for April 1st

 I threw a Tantrum when I realized 1:30 minutes of my life was wasted watching that video!

 That video takes you to the edge of the void and then makes you want to jump into it.

 And on the pic of the handlebars you can quite clearly see a bell! WTF does it need a bell for?

 I love when he keeps getting off and looking at the mountains, like he's thinking "oh fk those hills aren't getting any closer"

 Wtf I love E-bikes now! I think this is like a Ferrari. You could get the performance for a better penny, but you might not look as to...cool.

 That's how every ebike rider looks on the trail that I've seen and y'all are worried about losing your KOMs to ebikes?

 @MTBrent: I see what you did there. Agreed.

 That dude was feeling the flow!! Lol

 what i want to know is how they got funding. How do any of these retarded ideas get funding?

 @hamncheez: I am browsing Patreon in search of a physicist that will set off to prove that Earth is flat.

 @hamncheez:

Crowdfunding perhaps? Know about Juicero? Too much money and to shitty of an idea.

youtu.be/_Cp-BGQfpHQ

 This add has been brought to you by the coalition against e bikes.

 They were obviously demonstrating the optional throttle kit for riders who want to own a slow, awkward motorcycle !

 @WAKIdesigns: I'm a physicist. How much are you offering?

 lmao this is the best thing ive ever seen

 I thought surely the video can't be that bad...... Well, how wrong can you be eh.

 They're matching the video to the 'bike' - utterly shitty.

 I think some Chinese or Taiwanese company is just producing these horrendous bikes and people are branding them as their own. The F1 team Caterham did this several years ago on this same bike, seen below

i.ytimg.com/vi/MWYvjqz-vlI/maxresdefault.jpg

 @74tenomresc: get a load of that front rotor.

 hahahaha disgusting concept bike that does not work at all, i love it. did anyone else notice that it was in about 60% squat as he was sitting on it, and had a big old black smoodge mark on the underside of the seat where the wheel was buzzing the seat under compression (0:19)?

evidence to support that no-one should EVER build something directly from some uni-student graphic designer's render of a product he knows nothing about.

 I think the video was an outtake from The Weeknds new music video "Weeknd Warrior"

 Where we're going, we don't need roads.

 @acali: or helmets apparently

 Had to go watch after reading this comment.... wish I could get that 1:30 of my life back.

 Wow, just wow. Oh wait, is it April 1st?

 @gooutsidetoday: its like Nacho libre, Gummo & Napoleon Dynamite got together and had Pedro star in their mountain bike video.

 they must have hired Borat as their talent scout

 It was all part of the plan... Make a video so sucky it gets views. It had 300 views earlier.... Now it's up to nearly 4.5k....

 @gooutsidetoday: it is therefore a success and we will see more of these things.

 @hamncheez: From retards.

 Nothing has ever made me want to self harm more than having watched this.

 Please tell me that video was a joke.

 is it a new standart of an e-bike?

 Indeed what the flying feck was that? And the 'bike' itself? The shocks are purely for decoration as the suspension appears to do nada.

Also did someone go through quite a lot of work, sit back at the end and think 'Wow, it's finished, my masterpiece is ready for release unto the World'???!?!?!

Will/has anyone buy/bought one?! If so they need lobotomising.

And getting to the Tantrum, did PB save up all the ugliest bikes in the world and dump then on us at once? Whether it's any good or not it definitely looks like a linkage abortion occurred somewhere along the line and they decided to keep it all and try raise it into a living thing after all.

My eyes, they burn.

 Amen @veero:

 Moto Parilla you owe me 1:30 of my life back for watching that extra crap video. Never

 Check out the comments of all the insane people who ordered/want to buy this monstrosity : www.kickstarter.com/projects/1270196288/new-carbon-suv-e-bike/comments

Unbelievable...

 @cliffdroper: God is righteous!

 I really liked this bike when it was a prototype. I mean, I really liked when it WAS a prototype!!!

 @cliffdroper: Mind. Blown.

67 people pledged £102k. Mental. I'm in the wrong business, think I need to just come up with crazy scams I mean schemes on kick starter...

 @veero: start a kickstarter campaign for a trail heac EMP shockwave emitter. Kills Strava and Ebikes - two birds one stone

 @madm3chanic: yea, I noticed the uncomfortable knee angle too! How about the lack of workable suspension, just a bunch of bounce. No way would I ride one of those....until they worked out the suspension and an adjustable seat, the I'd give it a go!

 @barrysbikes: yeah that weird knee angle...dunno whether that was the bike or the rider. maybe he's just bow-legged/rides horses a lot.

 @barrysbikes: the awkwardly low seat was the first thing I noticed.
Probably the funniest thing about that lump of metal

 Came here to make that comment exactly

 Way to point that out its not like the article already did or anything...

 It retails at $6,900, for that you could have a pretty sweet moto... SMH

 Says that in the caption mate.

 @stumpymidget: d'oh. Now you know I don't read the captions.

 @Ladiesman442: jokes on us, I guess. Crazy thing has met its KS funding goal...now they have to actually deliver bikes hahaha

www.kickstarter.com/projects/1270196288/new-carbon-suv-e-bike

 I've come here to add that they started shipping in genuary 2017, and that's straight from their Kickstarter. Also, the pics and gifs on Kickstarter are better than the video

 @wetbed0: "genuary", oh my god XD Fkng gold

 Uhhhh. I'm not quite sure if that's a bridge 'too far', but damn... Just stick to MTBs, no mopeds. And I have a road bike that I ride sometimes. It's just a lot more lame than MTB.

 Roadbikes are bikes and therefore by default cooler than e-mopeds

 Heal up, really hope you'll be fine and be back on your bike.

 +Infinity (and beyond)

 @Powderface: Doesn't the infinity linkage not really work that well? Or was that just the SB5?

 @YouHadMeAtDrugs: Sorry I meant "infinity props" because I'd really like to see that comparison.

 Xorrox, I'm interested in the R3 as well. It would have been fun to ride it at DD, but I had to work on my booth. But clearly, they have something different going on, both in the manner at which they're going about it and the ride reports so far. I know it can't achieve the same geometry change, but as a pure "ground tracing device", that's not really a requirement.

My first production bikes are filtering out there now, including some initial reviews on mtbr. There will be a bunch more hitting soon. Can't wait.

 It just needs boost plus and some fatter tires, second thought a banana seat and sissy bar might suit better, oh and a playing card in the spokes to make noise, and pink tassles on the bars, maybe a nice kick stand. WTF it hurts my eyes

 Agreed. Looks like Brian finally found some good graphic designers.

 @PHeller: Really? WTF that is not good graphic design. Not good. Unless he's going for the whole retro 80's graphic think, man the graphics are an eyesore. Rest of the bike looks good tho

 Connerv6 haha thank you. That particular bike was built for my wife. All colors at her request. And it's a show bike. Like, to draw attention. We have some other, less, umm, spectacular colors too

 That thing looks like the Joker's MTB!

 Tantrum should call their bike "The Barney"

 Thinking the same thing

 and a Dirtbag.

 Thanks Joey. It's been a long strange trip, but I seem to be pulling it off so far. I know more work ahead to build on this success, but it's been a good start. keep abreast of our facebook and instagram for demo dates this fall

 So what you're saying is those internet engineers on here that said it would bottom out going off a curb according to their highly detailed analysis are wrong? Hmm go figure. LOL I love how much stock people put in those morons.

 Retrofitted E-Bike capability!

 I had to up it and go Ortho

 You get what you pay for

 Boost issues...

 If the limit is 60 pounds, then my clapped out old freeride bike might make the weight limit!!

 $0.50 of clear tape would prevent the damage.

 I have that cheap Swagman rack you see 67 year-olds with touring bikes using. What a waste of money. It's failing apart after a year of real-use. Unfortunately, with racks, you really do get what you pay for.

 @Adamrideshisbike: Had one too and rusted to bits after about a year. Wouldn't buy again

 @Adamrideshisbike: look into North Shore Racks. Very solid and the last.

 HULK SMASH.

 I believe it was a custom for his wife.

 Donatello #TMNT

 The Joker #Batman

 @LCW1: Holy High Bottom Bracket!!

 The purple is in honor of Prince. RIP

 My son says, "Buzz Lightyear bike!"

 @atrokz: Yeah it was a custom for his wife. If your order one, there are custom options to be had.

 That purple/green combo is pretty sweet. I’d ride that everywhere except Gotham.

 Love it on the Eva 2 , Beastboy & Constructicons

 I'm guessing the goal is to eventually license the suspension design.

 @funkendrenchman: Remember how crazy the original Outland VPP bike looked? Pretty good design idea but it really needed some industrial design love to get it to look less terrible. I think the Tantrum could be like that.

 Lots of great AL bikes out there. I am riding one and selling my carbon bike. Geo and suspension design is far more important than frame material.

 @funkendrenchman: Exactly. Carbon and a new name = I'd buy it.

 Honestly it's not even the fact that it's aluminum, it's the high angle seatstay that ruins the look. If that seatstay could line up with the top tube, I'd buy one today. Actually, I've been eyeing the 29er model for awhile now...

 are there even mounts for a water bottle above the top tube #facepalm
I couldn't see any

 While carbon is a likely option at some future point, there didn't seem to be great resistance to aluminum among the demo riders/buyers. And, safe to say, they are all coming off a lighter, carbon bike from a state of the art brand.

These frames are actually 6061. There are a lot of improvements in Al that come much closer to carbon. I want to use those as well before giving up on aluminum entirely.

Then there's that whole report about dumping carbon scraps into the ocean.....

 @PHeller: Look at the L. It's pretty close....if you want a 470 mm reach

 Considering the weight of carbon frames is going up not down I'd say yes. A lot of the carbon frames out their are not much lighter than their AL counter parts.

 Keep talking as if the Klein Mantra never happened.

 @sjflow: ha. Good point... but that was decades ago. Nowadays, you pretty much have no excuse for putting out that bad of a bike considering the current age and evolution of the full suspension MTB.

 @sjflow: They didn't know any better. People have been producing rad motos for decades - no excuse!

 Oh yes! We need a review of the Carbon!

 womens saddle

 actually, the L looks a little more like that. The SS lines up with TT. Same rocker though, sorry, that would get goofy fast The bike shown is an S

 agreed. but my wife loves it anyway

 @tantrumcycles: happy wife happy life!

 Doomsdave, it's supposed to. When you look in the rear view mirror, it's screaming "No Brakes!"

 @tantrumcycles: ha ha!!! Coolio. Looking forward to riding a tantrum. Love fresh ideas. Keep up the good work and stay hungry.

 www.pinkbike.com/news/first-ride-tantrum-missing-link.html#cid1450081

5 picture, theres a yolk/barpin in the pocket

 @andrextr: why do all the people who have ridden one disagree with your analysis? Have you ridden one yet or are you still relying on getting dimensions from photos?

 @PhillipJ: You don't even need to make a model, just look at this animation www.pinkbike.com/video/448619 and you will see that the leverage ratio (the ratio between wheel travel and shock travel) is very low at the begining of the travel, and very high at the end of the travel, which is exactly the opposite what major brands are doing now (YT, Intense, Santa Cruz, and so on). This is pure physics, the bike will bottom-out easily, just hit some drops at 30% SAG. Anyway, this is a war that I'm not interested to get into it. Already talked to much. Have fun

 @MysticMCyclist: Judging by the first ride article, what you can't see in these pictures is that the down tube is about 3" wide at that point. Looks like there's enough room for the body of the shock to get right up against the mount, I think the o-ring is a coincidence.

 @andrextr: I've watched some of your videos. You seem like a reasonably smart guy. open your mind up to the fact that there's more than one way to skin a cat. And I skinned this one alive.

If everyone that rides it disagrees with your analysis, maybe it's time to rethink your figures and try and figure out why? How? How 'bout it? Don't be a hater, be a solver.

cheers,

Brian

 @andrextr: ohya, I forgot OF COURSE it's different than what everyone else is doing. It could not exhibit the variable geometry and wheel rate characteristics that make it ride so sweet, both up and down hill, if it was even CLOSE to what everyone else is doing.

Can't do something better without doing something better, you know?

 @tantrumcycles: You didn’t address his point. Is the leverage curve highly regressive? No semantics now...

I have to presume it is, as @andrextr definitely knows his stuff, despite what many on here apparently think.

Furthermore, you’ve been highly guarded and surreptitious on other forums about not showing pics of your frames for fear of someone running it thru the linkage software. One has to wonder why. This would explain it quite well.

 @andrextr: Sorry, but something in your way of interpret this new linkage patent are simply wrong. I have now been riding my Tantrum Meltdown for a few weeks. And with the Topaz rear shock correctly setup, the suspension feels bottomless. It's simply the best bike I have ever been on. Just outstanding when comes to versatility. An important factor for many of the trails I love to ride. It both climbs and descends better then the Evil Insurgent and Orange Stage6 that I was riding before settling for the Meltdown. Why?? Well I guess most of you know why DH and some Enduro bikes tends to have around 63degrees HTA and lowish BB? Because we prefer highspeed stability and lower and more rearward CG when descending steep or fast!
But what about climbing then? Well that's where the amazing inner buty of this beast shines since the recistance in a climb makes the linkage extend giving up to 4degrees steeper HTA and also higher BB/ ground clearance then most xc bikes.
You can get the same change in geometry on bikes with lock-up shocks. But not combined with active suspension. I used to ride an Scott Genius for many years. It climbed like a goat with the shock extended, but only on smooth climbs. On the Tantrum the suspension are always active even on the steepest of climbs. No need no more for lockout or propedal levers or remotes on shock or fork. No more decisions on when to adjust or forget to...
At least for me its enough to have gear changes, adjusting the dropper post, breaking and pedaling to keep me busy and happy when riding.

 @simsburner: So in layman's terms what I am getting is that at the sag point the rate is progressive to counter act pedal input but further int the stroke it turns more regressive to work against the nature of an air shock and give a more bottomless feel? Is that anywhere near how it works or am I way off? I can't tell much from that animation.

 @dtm1: www.tantrumcycles.com/technology.html

 @andrextr: Another internet engineer without a clue.

 @dtm1: I have addressed the LR many times, both here and in forums. I have also addressed why the linkage program as well as the attending illuminatti seem unable to understand what is happening. Neither take into account the horizontal forces.

This is also true of EVERY other suspension design. They do not, because they CANNOT.

So to try to predict the ride of this bike by using Linkage or comparing parameters of a conventional suspension is a fools errand. @andrextr has made a reputation making videos and approximations of conventional suspension systems. And comments like, "this bike has more rising rate, therefore it is more progressive". I mean, he's not wrong, but it's hardly rocket surgery. I again throw down the challenge to him and every other hater.....stop hating and trying to figure out why you don't think it will work. Try to figure out how I pulled it off.

As for posting pics, there's so many pics of this frame all over the internet....Posting exact linkage numbers??? Nobody does that. Companies with single pivot bikes don't do that. And why would they?? To "prove" to the experts what, exactly??? That all bikes are different?

 @darkside720: You are not too close.....without overlaying the horizontal forces on the chainstay and how they are fed in with the vertical forces, the LR alone is meaningless.

People get all wound up about the LR because, until now, that and anti-squat are the only things suspension designers have had to play with.

There's a new game in town

 @tantrumcycles: Although I strongly disagree with you I won't talk more because I don't like to screw others business. Bad LRs curves are something that most riders nowadays will easily detect, so if the bike eventually has a problem most people will report it as harsh bottom outs. I will wait for future reports just as a curiosity. Meanwhile I wish you the best of luck and I won't talk more about your bike. Bye

 @andrextr: you have no credibility left. I used to go look at your info, but I've also talked to someone that has ridden the prototype and his ride report pretty much disagrees with everything you said about the bike.

I for one can't take anything you say about a bike seriously at this point.

 @TheOriginalTwoTone: I don't care about my credibility because I make my judgement based on facts and not on biased opinions. And no one can take the fact that the LR of that bike nearly doubles across the travel, making it probably the most regressive bike in the market. So, it seems like 99% of bike brands making it wrong and just a couple of fan boys know what they are talking about. Yeah I know, this bike has magical properties and quantic horizontal forces that make it different. Yah, right! Good luck with that.

 @andrextr: don't you mean approximations instead of facts? Since you don't have true numbers for any of the bikes, you're just doing best guesses and not really working with facts.

 @tantrumcycles: Yes, got the idea that the link does the work with pedalling forces from watching your website vid- was just being a bit dim!

 @andrextr: here's the crux of the problem Andre. You just don't have the facts. Your bad approximation of the leverage ratio notwithstanding, you just won't open your eyes to the fact there are forces at work that either you don't understand, refuse to acknowledge, or have no way of evaluating in the context of total suspension performance.

Don't do this for me, or for your credibility. Do this for your growth. Figure out how I did it. Why is your analysis so wrong? Nobody is lying here. We have the facts. I have the actual numbers and the riders have ridden the bikes. Those are the facts. If it was even close to what you say, I would have been run out of every forum. Instead, the opposite seems to be happening as more people get to ride and report. Like, exclusively great reviews. Some by customers, many by skeptics. It works. It's real.

As for the other brands getting it wrong, of course not. I say it's hard to find a bad bike of almost any brand. Even the bottom of the heap is lightyears ahead of 15-20 years ago. But they are limited by the same parameters, LR an AS. Every single bike out there is a variation on this theme. That's all they have to work with.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that somebody actually though of something new and better? Don't you think, if you were good enough, you could too?

Are you denying the horizontal forces exist or could be used to modify suspension behaviour? If so, how does this work?

 @darkside720: Also the horizontal forces acting rearward on the chainstay do to bumps. The shock response, I call it wheel rate, can continually vary between stiffer and softer than normal, depending on the needs of the rider and terrain.

The rearward pull on the chainstay provides an instant buckling of the suspension to provide a supple, plush bump response. This is true of even the old school Xfusion shock, but more so with the DVO, which is just more butter.

A normal suspension (everybody else) could never have that soft of bump response. The bike would sag thru it's travel and wallow everywhere. On the Missing Link, this response only occurs at the moment of impact.It's only soft when you need it. Not for jump landings, berms, etc.

On the flipside, climbing can make the wheelrate infinitely stiffer, as well as steepen the geo by 3-4 degrees. And the great part is, the geo stays steep at the moment of impact, while the bump disappears, even under full power. Instead of the back of the bike going downward at the moment of ipact, it stays up, but the wheel goes up to follow the bump. Geo preserved, bump gone, back to full on climbing mode on the backside of the bump

 @tantrumcycles: The smaller the rear wheel the higher the horizontal part of the impact caused by obstacles on trails, right? In this case the rear wheels size will not have as big an influence to bump absorption like in traditional designs. If you use a smaller wheel you will have higher horizontal forces enabling the movement of the missing link and therefore changing the leverage at the shock while when using a bigger diameter wheel the general rollover resistance will be smaller. Did you do any calculations on that subject?

 @tantrumcycles: I think most mountain bikers (myself included) have an ingrained idea that any linkage is likely there to modify the leverage. Most people after watching the demo with the uncoupled shock would quickly pick up on what is happening with the geo etc. I guess that would be a good place to start any discussion over this design. Seems like a great solution, hope to see a few in the UK.

 @DrFlow: What you are saying is true. I have not done a wheelsize comparison. I had to use a "range" of forces anyway, to sort of create a "continuum", or a map of what is going on at any given time.

For sure the bigger wheel rolls over better, that's pretty easy physics, BUT...I've been riding 160 mm 29er front and 160 mm 27.5 rear. My impression after some time ad testing is the this combo gives up nothing to 29 fr/rr in rollover and bump, but handles way better in the corners, changing lines, you name it.

Some of this could be attributed to what you mention, but I claim it's just because the back is so good and so unbothered, it needed a better front to match it and the 29er fr wheel does the trick. Point the front and the back follows

 @darkside720: For some people, this realization comes easier than others. I'm still trying to find better ways to explain it. Easier to ride it....provided you're near a bike. I do have a couple initial customers in the UK, they'll eventually filter over there.

Thanks for the good words, cheers, Brian

 @darkside720: But isn't this energy wasted on moving the whole mass of the rider plus sprung mass of the bike supported by the rear shock instead of generating drive?
@tantrumcycles Did you have fast riders smashing stuff with it downhill? My concern would be too easy bottoming out.

 @DrFlow: Do you mean the fact that the rear rises while climbing? Obviously it takes some energy/work to add enough spring force to lift the rider's weight. BUT, the added efficiency of being directly over the pedals and bars is well worth it. PLUS, I guess that means at the top of the hill when the suspension sags back down, you get that back......

The first kickstarter customers are in pretty serious territory, like Canmore. They are some reviews and a few more coming soon. These guys are doing stuff.

Here's a short quote " it was really good except that I bottomed it out coming up short on a long table top/small double lip at the Kicking Horse bike park which is more than most riders would ever subject it to. The rest of the day it was perfect landing jumps. "

He was actually running way too low of resi can pressure at the time (not his fault), which we realized after shipping.

 @tantrumcycles: It's quite hilarious that you are saying that I'm doing approximations, while the problem is so big that I can even see it at naked eye in the animation above or in Vitalmtb video cycling the suspension without shock. We can clearly see that at the end of the travel the wheel moves much more for the same shock displacement than at the begining of the travel. Linkage software confirms a LR that starts nearly at 2.0 and ends at nearly 4.0. This is so obvious that its funny. It's also funny that you are marketing a 150-200% Anti-Squat as a good thing. Sure it will rise the rear end given such high anti-squats, but this means that for each pedal stroke the rear end will lift making pedal bob and wasting energy as a consequence. But comparing to LR problem this is peanuts. If you want to finish leverage rate discution, show us some good footage of drops with 30% SAG (example: droping a tall curb seated at slow speeds and no braking). Show us the SAG and the drops, with no tricks, no video editing. Go! PS: The more you attack my credebility the more I will speak

 @andrextr: Hmm to trust the internet expert or the people that have actually physically ridden the bike?

You say the bike does A without riding it. The people that have ridden say it doesn't do A.

What credibility do you think you still have?

 @TheOriginalTwoTone: What people? 2, 10, 200, 1000 ? In which conditions? Are they biased? There are people who say the earth is flat. Should I believe them? Just show us the video making that test !!

 @andrextr: well, greetings....I will have one of these 6 inch Tantrums in a few weeks time. To beat the crap out of. Kitted with DVO. I am going to do 250 miles of hard-hittin climbing, descending, and mayhem on it...and only then I will write something about it. Are you a bad enough dude to handle what will be coming with my review ? see, I ride before I speak.

 @andrextr: So, first point. You are not doing approximations??? You have exact data? Yes or no? That's all it takes, yes, or no? If Yes, you have exact data, then you are not doing approximations. If, in fact, NO, you do not have exact data, you are, in fact (fact, mind you) doing approximations.

Do you dispute this analysis?? Yes, or No. Simple question.

I didn't think so. Can we move on? Linkage confirms what now??? From what date, now??? Pardon me, I can't hear for the crickets chirping. Linkage is confirming your worst approximation of what you think is going on. No more, no less.

LR ending at 4.0?? You are so far off, I don't even think you used a bad photo, you just made up some numbers. If it ended at 4.0, you wouldn't even be able to put enough air in the shock. You know this is true, yet you present that BS??? I'm not attacking your credibility at all. You are doing a fine job yourself.

150-200% antisquat??? Never. Once. Said. By me. Only you. I claim no such thing. I claim any wanna be engineer trying to define this linkage in old school terms is ignorant and out to lunch. Get over it. Look for new terms.

The footage you ask for is easy, so easy, I haven't bothered. Seriously, a tall CURB??? you call that a drop??? How bout a few feet or a meter at least, if I'm gonna go thru the trouble. A tall CURB??? What? Is this a translation problem? C'mon, you have to do better than that.

After all, I'm not the one attacking your credibility. You are the one, despite your pronouncements to keep quiet, who are not only attacking my credibility, but my experience, my history, my track record, my products, and the dozens of professional and everyday test riders.

People. Experienced, hard core riders and testers that have actual one on one riding, on their own trails, against their own state of the art bikes.

But somehow your photo, which Linkage CONFIRMS is at least 30% off from the actual numbers, are going to proclaim supreme knowledge of the system. Interesting. And your education and bike designing experience is what now??

 @andrextr: Maybe you should do a little research for yourself and find out who is doing the demos, before you further attack everyone's credibility.They're easy to find...

 @tantrumcycles: Your bike will bottom out hardly on a simple tall curb seated test and it will prove my point that it has a serious bottom out problem. Send us the video showing also that you have a nearly 30% SAG. No video crops and tricks. You can put all spacers on the shock. We are waiting for it!

 @crm114: heyheyhey, easy on all the crap and the mayhem ok. This bike is only designed for SMALL curbs ok. TALL curbs of any sort will void the warranty.

 @andrextr: And what will you do when I post that video??? Admit you were so far off that you should turn in your internetexpert credential? Give me money? Post on all the forums how wrong you were? I suspect you will just say i doctored the video. How fast should the bike be going??? Money where your mouth is???

How do you think I sold any bikes to anybody? It's amazing that you think that myself and all my customers are complete idiots. Why, we're so dumb, we wouldn't even know the bike bottomed on a tall curb.

Why don't you address the questions and critiques I have about your analysis..crickets.....From the guy who says he will keep quiet.....bring the math.

 @tantrumcycles: You are very good at word games, always runing away from real issues. I'm not going to do nothing with the video, it was just for entertainment. I think everyone would like to see more footage of the suspension working on a more "enduro" enviroment, with some jumps. Until now the most hardcore thing that I've seen was a couple of bottom-outs while crossing a simple wood bridge at min 3:40 ( www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC7kv7KwSw0 ) Forget the math, and the horizontal forces, we believe in you ! Just give us some more real world riding to watch !!

 @andrextr: you'd think if the bike did that, RC (who reviewed it here on pinkbike) might have not said it can hold it's own against the current crop of superbikes in the market ? RC said it's legit, all reviewers say it's legit, and only armchair quarterbacks like yourself, who sit and run linkage programs and make graphs, say anything negative. your credibility is zero on this one.

anyway I am gonna set this to 30% sag rear, 25% front, and bone stock DVO topaz/DVO diamond, with DVO recommended pressure and tuning settings to start, and ride the hell out of it. If I can bottom the bike I will state how and when it occurred.

 @andrextr: i am good at word games. Math too. But you refuse to answer the most basic questions. Like your approximations. You just distract from that issue, even though you brought it up.

I am not running away from any issues. I am in production. I am delivering to customers who are now using them in the most extreme riding environments around the world. And there will be more and more. The bikes are featured on the premiere episode of Adventure Capitalists (Oct 10, CNBC) Shameless plug, thank you.

There is nowhere to hide for me. My name, my bikes, my technology is real. I'm not hiding behind a facade of an internet expert.

No, I'm not a videographer. And I didn't need to put RAD video footage of big jumps. That can be done on any bike, hardtail if you want. It proves nothing. The video I posted was to show the supple response along with the pedaling and geometry change. It might not be the best, or even close to it. but if you look (with your mind open). You can see it.

Watch the video again. There's a full 20-25 mm of shock stroke still inside the frame.

 @andrextr:
There is only one of two things going on here, you're right and RC from PinkBike is a liar or you're wrong.

So back up you bullshit and call RC out. I mean it, you're so sure that your little desktop analysis is right you should have no problem calling out RC and PinkBike on their credibility

I mean it must be obvious to an expert like you, PinkBike only gave that review because of the huge advertising budget Tantrum has with PB..

 @andrextr: I do have a video of about a 15 foot road gap with about a 10 foot drop .......the XF shock was set at 35% sag (about 165 psi), full soft on the bump. It actually shouldn't have been jumped that way, but I said go for it. The DVO fork was set at 135. actually way stiff in comparison.

The back came close to bottoming, the fork buried the o-ring in the crown.

Now, if your assertion is correct, either this video does not exist, or the bike snapped in half. I filmed it at a private test and I haven't made it public, partly because of that and partly because, while it provides a good "mountain dew" moment, it doesn't really mean anything.

But to you, it might mean as much as a tall curb. Will you publicly apologize and try to find out why your analysis is so wrong if I post it?? I mean, you're damn near slandering me by posting such blatentely wrong data.

 @tantrumcycles: I just found out this hilarious video from Antonio Osuna, which explains the system in deep detail. AHAHAH

vimeo.com/176064112

 @andrextr: that would be pretty funny if it ended in a drop to flat, the bike exploding and the rider being impaled by the link. But I guess you share the same lack of imagination and analytical skills with that guy. Although I think his bad numbers ended at 3.5 to 1 or so, yours go all the way to 4. Maybe you should ask him which picture he used for his approximation....er, I mean facts.

I hope you guys are proud of your adult responses.

How bout that video challenge???...crickets????

 @andrextr: Simple question you keep dodging.

It's really easy for a smart guy since it's a yes or no.

Is RC from Pinkbike a liar?

 @tantrumcycles: Forget the video, you don't need to pack the shock full of spacers and cement inside. It's OK, I know the bike will handle well the drops like a Capra, Nomad, Slayer and so on This conversation can continue in the bellow thread, which already have a lot of funny stuff. Already wasted too much time here. Bye bye (notifications disabled).
ridemonkey.bikemag.com/threads/ridemonkey-how-to-series-throwing-a-tantrum-in-public.276830

 @andrextr: Still ignoring the question?

 I regret ever leaving this comment. You guys just don't stop god damn

 This is amazing. I call for a mandatory timeout - everyone go ride your bikes. Now.

 @me2menow: hi, Sorry. That guy is a little too much fun. He's been attacking this ever since RC did the initial public review and apparently just can't stop in spite of ever increasing reviews, basically confirming everything RC said and then some.

And in the process, overlooked your question.

Especially since the bikes have been improved in just about every way since then.

While I'm not to willing to post actual numbers, I will say that the LR falls pretty steeply from 0% to 25% sag. From 25-35 % sag, this fall rapidly reduces. From 35-50%, it flattens out. It is flat from 50-100% travel.

While not rising rate in the linkage, it is not regressive where bottoming resistance is needed. And a nice, smooth, rising rate air curve is just the thing to control that end of the stroke.

At the beginning of the stroke, where it is regressive, this is also intentional. It works in harmony with the Missing Link to help keep it up in the travel while climbing and also to easily move at the moment of bump impact, while still preserving the climbing geometry.

At the same time, I am able to use a softer compression valving than any other suspension design. Platform is redundant, so I can achieve an extra plush bump response due to this, while still offering all the climbing and pedaling advantages.

The shock is recessed in the frame about 25 mm. For the future, the trunion shock should make that unnecessary.

 @mikekazimer: bwahahahaha, sorry Mike. I know it's unprofessional of me. Have you met me? I be ridin...

 @andrextr: ha,

well, first race the bike entered, it won the race. sea otter 2018 mens 25-29 DH cat 2, Karl Lange, won on a tantrum.

all you armchair quarterbacks trying to diss the Tantrum suspension saying it 'just ain't good' pretty much made fools of yourselves, and you can try to make posts about how suspension designs work, stare at the number in your linkage program and make graphs...but in reality, you don't know a damn thing. sea otter is not rocky but it is riddled with bumps and jumps and corners and involves a ton of pedaling. also sea otter is the #1 race everyone wants to win to open the season. Tantrum did not slow down the 1st place winner that is 100% proven. kickstarter bike beats all production bikes at that race.

 all bearings are in the links. None in the frame. Peace 'o cake