Nicolai First to Reveal a Production-Ready Bike With Lal Bikes' Supre Drivetrain
We've reported on Lal bikes' Supre drivetrain several times before. But now, for the first time, there's a production-ready bike that you can actually buy using the unique gearing system.
To recap, the Supre drivetrain is the brainchild of Canadian engineer, Cedric Eveleigh. The idea is to keep the derailleur out of harm's way by splitting the gear-selecting part and the chain-tensioning part. The gear-selector pulley sits high up, above the bottom of the cassette at all times, making it less likely to be struck by rocks, while the chain tensioner pulley sits above - and concentric to - the bottom bracket. As a bonus, this allows the tensioner arm to use a hydraulic damper hidden inside the downtube; compared to the basic friction clutch found in most derailleurs, this is claimed to reduce chain slap and make shifting smoother. It's claimed to be slightly more efficient than a conventional drivetrain with an idler too.
Nicolai Nucleon 16 Details
• Intended use: "enduro racing, freeride and bike park"
• High pivot with Lal Bikes Supre drivetrain
• 1x12, 10-51 tooth, regular Shimano cassette, chain & shifter
• Superboost 157mm rear hub
• 165 or 178 mm rear travel, 160-180 mm fork
• 29" or mixed-wheel compatible
• 78.6° seat angle, 64° head angle
• Sizes: S, M, L, XL, XXL
• Price: From €7,499
• More info
• Intended use: "enduro racing, freeride and bike park"
• High pivot with Lal Bikes Supre drivetrain
• 1x12, 10-51 tooth, regular Shimano cassette, chain & shifter
• Superboost 157mm rear hub
• 165 or 178 mm rear travel, 160-180 mm fork
• 29" or mixed-wheel compatible
• 78.6° seat angle, 64° head angle
• Sizes: S, M, L, XL, XXL
• Price: From €7,499
• More info
The system only works with high-pivot designs and - much like a gearbox bike - the frame has to be designed around the requirements of the drivetrain. Cedric told us he was working with several frame manufacturers who wanted to use it, but we didn't think we'd see a Supre-equipped bike this soon.
The Bike
Nicolai have built bikes with unconventional drivetrains before, so it isn't surprising to see them come to market first with Supre. The Nicolai Nucleon 16 is a long-travel monster with Nicolai's signature lengthy sizing. The frame delivers either 165 mm of travel with a 60 mm stroke shock or 178 mm of travel with a 65mm shock. Nicolai say it works with 160 to 180 mm forks, but given the rear travel, I suspect most will opt for the higher end of that range. It can be run with a pair of 29" wheels or mixed sizes.
The gear selector bolts onto the frame with two bolts.
The rear part of the swingarm also encloses the calliper. I think the two bolts allow the rear part to be interchangeable to provide different chainstay lengths.
It's interesting to see how Nicolai have designed the bike around the drivetrain. The swingarm encloses the gear selector, giving it extra protection, while the thin upper part of the swingarm fits between the upper and lower chain spans, which are much closer together than with a conventional derailleur.
The gear selector bolts onto the swingarm with two bolts, so you can't hack up a conventional derailleur to fit; but the cassette, chain and shifter are off-the-shelf Shimano units. The 92mm T47 bottom bracket and Superboost 157 mm rear axle are "standard" too, if not the most common options.
Suspension
The Nucleon 16 is a single-pivot bike. The shock is driven by a rocker link at the rear, which is connected to the swingarm by a pair of tie rods. The front shock mount is connected directly to the mainframe.
Here you can see the tie rods which drive the rocker link from the pivot just behind the tension pulley. The cable which enters the downtube below is to connect the tensioner arm to a bespoke spring and damper inside the downtube.
The idler pulley is connected to the swingarm and so moves with the suspension. This positioning gives a generous amount of anti-squat, especially in the climbing gears. Unusually for an idler bike, there is also a substantial amount of pedal-kickback in the larger sprockets as well.
The anti-squat (the resistance to compression when pedalling) varies a lot depending on the gear, from 155% in the largest sprocket to 105% in the smallest, at sag.
Pedal-kickback goes from virtually nothing in the smaller sprockets to levels comparable to non-idler bikes in the largest ones.
The leverage curve is pretty progressive (31% in the shorter-travel mode and more so in the longer-travel setting) - this bike is meant to be sent.
The magnified axle path. The axle moves about 11 mm rearwards over the first 115 mm of travel before coming slightly forwards. That makes it a "proper high pivot", although the axle path isn't quite as rearward as Forbidden's.
Geometry
The Nucleon 16 is offered in 5 frame sizes, designed to fit riders between 1.55 and 2.10 meters (5′ 1″ to 6′ 11″). The larger frames get more reinforced tubes to cope with the extra weight and stresses they're likely to see.
Being Nicolai, the geometry is pretty lengthy (up to 555 mm reach in the XXL size!) and the seat angle is steep, but the 64-degree head angle is more conventional than Nicolai's Geometron bikes.
Nicolai's website says the bike can be ordered now and will be delivered from December 2022. The price for the frame without gears and without damper is €3,099. Complete bikes are available from €7499.
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Easy on the coffee and conspiracy so early in the morning.
What are you doing to move gearbox innovation forward, other than ranting ridiculousness?
Hot take: gearbox tech is fine and gearbox mountain bikes are easily available at this point but pinkbikers who claim how much they want them are simply not buying them. There's no conspiracy of derailleur manufacturers. You guys are simply not putting your money where your mouths are. Want brands to do it, then fund it.
@onawalk: Got a very boring job in Europe right now, spewing obscenities about gearboxes has become the only thing that makes me at least look productive at my desk. I'm just frustrated I can't afford a gearbox bike because they are all boutique manufacturers. I've killed like 4 eagle drivetrains in just as many years if that gets me points in the crusade for gearboxes.
Nicolai is likely to suffer a similar fate with their LAL Supre drivetrain bikes….
Seems to be lots of desire, but little follow through.
The upper rich spend 80% of the money in the sport? My impression is that most money is in the cheaper to mid-level stuff. Deore up to Deore XT drivetrain parts etc. But that's just my impression from what I see around so my reason to question your claim. Now go and support it.
"If you weren't on Pinkbike, you'd hardly know gearboxes existed." With Pinkbike being Canadian (and in English language), Rohloff and Pinion being German and Effigear being French, I'd be very surprised if these European companies would have to rely on a Canadian media outlet to be known. But yeah again, support your bold claims, just like you should in college.
As for them to only be on bikes from boutique manufacturers, it kind of depends on what's your definition of boutique but I'd be surprised brands like Ghost and Alutech were considered as such.
Alutech is quite boutique, with a lot of in-house manufacturing, CNC fabricated parts, an 8k euro pinion bike, and a 16k euro e-bike in their range. Also unattainable in the U.S.
And Ghost offers a shite hardtail I wouldn't buy anything from them anyway.
And then we have ebikes which actually took a big market share for expensive bikes, so the actual market for gearboxes shrunk even more.
I just checked Alutech again and indeed, prices have climbed compared to a couple of years ago, just as it happened across the entire industry. Mind you the inflation of the Euro has accelerated recently so if you're taking the dollar as a reference, the price increase may not appear as extreme. You mentioned you've got a job in Europe (a very boring one) so the fact that it is unattainable in the US isn't quite relevant, is it? Either way, their base level Fanes is well below 4000 euro. You'd probably still want to upgrade to a dropper post (they offer BikeYoke) and many scoff at the NX drivetrain, but you're still getting top quality Formula suspension. I don't think this is expensive compared to the other mainstream brands.
As for Ghost. Someone just won an elite XC race on one. Someone else convincingly won a 4X protour race on one this very same weekend. Their stuff may be shite to you but apparently it is good enough for people who can actually ride. Haven't checked which magazines they read though. These could indeed very well be "non-enthusiasts".
@nozes:
I know that the tech and geo isn’t for everyone, but the quality, precision, thoughtful design, and top tier customer support are hard to beat.
Superboost cons:
Less clearance, my heals already rub my boost rear end and wider axle and pedals means more strikes.
Need to buy new wheels, i like my current wheels thanks.
Superboost pros:
Wider hub flange makes stiffer wheels but arguably we don't need stiffer wheels.
More tyre/chainring clearance for short rear ends, current tend is longer rear ends with more room anyway so not needed.
Yes, new wheels... I buy complete bikes so it's not an issue for me, but if you're bringing wheels to your next frame, I can see how that would be an issue. Also, SB doesn't necessarily have to make your wheels stiffer, but does make them stronger. My wheels didn't change in stiffness, just overall strength.
One of the most overlooked positives is the wider/stiffer bracing possible with the suspension linkage. SB can end up giving you more room up front as well and allows suspension designers to build stiffer linkage designs that keep sideloading away from your shock... leaving your shock free to do what it's supposed to do with less friction/stiction... and less chance of blowing a shock.
Lastly, for some companies that have a wide range of people who ride their bikes, it gives people options. For example, Yes there maybe more space than you need, but if gives that person that wants to run plus tires an option with no compromises, etc.
So, for me, there haven't been any downsides and ever if the upsides are marginal... I'll take marginal gains with no downside over no gains at all.
Looks like that problem is solved.
Agree on the pros of SB. I ride the new switchblade and it is magical.
i will concede design plays a big part in heal clearance but if you apply good design to both then you still get more clearance from boost, just becuase SB can be narrower than a wide boost design doesnt mean that's enough clearance.
TBH the only actual good points come from the wider cranks that go with SB, the wider/stiffer sus linkages and heal clearance come from the wider cranks but this still comes with the negatives of pedals and rear mech being more open to strikes and then you have Q-factor, on a DH bike where SB comes from, a wide q-factor doesn't matter so much as you're not pedalling but on an enduro or trail bike that wider stance isn't as effective or comfortable for long days pedalling, research shows a narower q-factor is better for pedalling, even the narrowest of xc or road bikes are wider than most peoples natural position, obviously you need a certain width to fit everything in but making it even wider with SB isn't ideal.
This came way cleaner than i could have ever expected
What does the spring damper look like?
And yes that rear end really does look very nice
Love it ; )
I would be very interested to see a new video with this bike showing how it rides. Also would like to demonstrate how brake pads are changed and how the wheel is removed/installed - that looks trickier than normal.
www.instagram.com/tv/Cb7IdPuLHOq/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Weight should go down as some parts are sill printed and not forged/cncd
r2-bike.com/media/image/product/213610/lg/fox-suspension-fork-2022-29-float-38-f-s-170-grip2-factory-boost-shiny-black-15x110-mm-tapered-44-mm-rake~10.jpg
So congrats again to LAL Bikes for creating this truly innovative system that I'm sure riders will support.
I just applaud nicolai for being willing to be an early adopter and risk it all in the name of progress! We won’t know how these inventions perform until they’re on oem specs and getting broad usage.
Nicolai has a history of making wacky drivetrain bikes but also of making spare parts for at least 5 years for every frame; they make everything in house so if you had something older than that I'm sure they'd make it for you. Do you know of any other brand their size and pedigree who will still make you anything you want custom-wise?
Think I last hit a mech off about 10 years ago before shadow mechs came into existence.
For no chain growth, the complexities of this solution are mind blowingly over engineered to solve a no-problem.
But I still run 10 speed and a 36T out back because you dont need anything else in the UK for trail centres or up in the mountains. Maybe a 40T in some mountains to save the legs. (I would run lower if I lived abroad though)
Also Nikolai always make interesting bikes not matter what anyone says.
I'm curious how much the chain will be hitting the stays?
How do you remove the damper for service or do you not need to?
The chain tensioner pulley isn't concentric to the BB; it pivots along an arc that is concentric to the BB but the pulley itself cannot be concentric as it doesn't share the same centre as the chainring.
"So you're saying there's a chance"
www.ebay.com/itm/Bondhus-6pc-Ball-End-Hex-Screwdriver-Set-1-5-5mm-Metric-MADE-IN-USA-10686-/141452895292?hash=item20ef3fe43c:g:h5MAAOSwDN1UT~Wx
I mean for 320 grams you can just carry an entire AXS derailleur on your bike if so inclined.
The weight & efficiency have to be equal or better than standard set ups for this to really take off.
There is also the little issue that High Pivot bikes might have already peaked as early adopters seem to be moving away from them already.
www.pinkbike.com/news/lal-bikes-supre-drivetrain-an-update.html#:~:text=According%20to%20Lal%20Bikes%2C%20their,pulley%20as%20the%20Supre%20system.
Also-this iteration of the drivetrain is clunky, but I’ll be curious to see how it evolves.
I know why, but would still make more common sense as far as efficiency?
Step 2: install Archer components shifter
Step 3: profit
Why exactly would I want this again?
doesn't even really solve the problems that a derailleur poses [citation needed]
It literally says in the article, how the system is completely proprietary and very much limits frame and suspension design options: "The system only works with high-pivot designs and - much like a gearbox bike - the frame has to be designed around the requirements of the drivetrain."
Also, you can tell that it doesn't solve the derailleur issues by the way that it doesn't. It's still exposed to the elements and rocks and debris could still get flung into it. As opposed to a fully enclosed gearbox.
"you can tell that it doesn't solve the derailleur issues by the way that it doesn't". No hanger: check. No external RD: check. I asked you to provide a citation for "doesn't really solve the problems that a RD poses". You have provided none. A citation would include a list of such problems, so we could have a debate about which problems it solves and which it doesn't.
Thank you!
I wish I had the money to get ine
(its a joke you anti ebike snowflakes)
And if it's only for gravity fueled riding, why the 51t large cog?