Whenever gearboxes or gear hubs are mentioned it becomes clear there are a lot of gearbox fans out there, and it's easy to see why - derailleurs are finicky, vulnerable and unreliable. But there are a few good reasons derailleurs still dominate over gearboxes: weight, compatibility, shifter ergonomics and drivetrain efficiency. Kindernay's gear hubs appear to solve some of these issues.
Kindernay is an engineering company that has developed hydraulic gear shift systems trucks, so they should know a thing or two about building gearboxes. Alongside hubs for commuter bikes and fat bikes, the company has two gear hubs that could appeal to mountain bikers: the XIV and the brand new VII. Both are available with 12x148mm and 12x142mm axles and could be fitted to most bikes, including ebikes.
Fans of Roman numerals will have guessed the XIV offers fourteen gears and the VII has seven. The XIV has a massive 543% gearing range, with consistent 13.9% gaps between gear ratios - no single-ring derailleur system can match that. It costs €1,249.92. Meanwhile, the new VII has a gear range of 428% (similar to a 10-42t 11-speed cassette) over 7 speeds, with meaty 28% intervals between gear ratios. Unfortunately, it's OEM only for now. Both use a pretty interesting hydraulic shifting mechanism and interchangeable "swap cages" which allow one hub to be used on multiple bikes.
WeightPerhaps the most important downside of gearboxes is the weight. And unlike frame-mounted gearboxes, the mass of a gear hub is unsprung, meaning it has to move up and down with the suspension, so suspension performance suffers. The Kindernay XIV has a claimed weight of 1,400g for the hub alone, while the VII weighs 1,200g. For comparison, a Rohloff Speedhub weighs about 1,545g for the raw hub.
The weight of the VII isn't too far off the weight of a conventional hub, cassette and derailleur combined - a DT Swiss 350 rear hub weighs 270g, a Shimano Deore 12-speed cassette weighs 593g and the derailleur weighs 318g, which adds up to 1,181g. So the XIV gear hub is in the same ballpark as a "workhorse" 12-speed derailleur drivetrain.
There's also the swap cage (more on that later) which weighs around 100g, the hydraulic connector for the shifting, a sprocket, plus you'll need a chain tensioner, but we're still only talking about a few hundred grams more unsprung mass over a budget derailleur drivetrain. The total unsprung mass at the rear wheel is typically 3-4 Kg, so this is in the neighbourhood of a 10% increase.
The claimed total system weight is 1,750g. A standard shifter and cable weigh around 200g, so added to the hub, cassette and derailleur the comparable conventional setup would weigh around 1,381g. That means a total weight penalty of about 369g compared to Deore 12-speed.
ShiftingMost gearboxes need two cables to operate the shifting; that means they often require a grip shift, which isn't ideal for mountain biking. Kindernay's gear hubs use a pair of hydraulic hoses to operate the shifting and a conventional-looking under-bar shifter with thumb shift levers. By the looks of it, that should be more familiar to most mountain bikers and it allows you to use normal grips. Kindernay call this shifter the
Onesie; there is also the option of the
Twosie, which splits the hoses so the upshift is on one side of the bar and the downshift on the other, but most mountain bikers with dropper remotes will go for the Onesie.
While gearboxes don't like to shift while pedalling hard, these hubs can shift multiple gears at once without pedalling.
CompatabilityWhile frame-mounted gearboxes only work with frames designed to accommodate them, one advantage of gear hubs is they work with normal frames. But fitting a gear hub involves lacing it to a rim, and if you want to swap the hub to a different bike you may need to re-build the wheel with a different rim. Kindernay offers their hubs with interchangeable swap cages which alleviate this problem. The cage is laced to a rim and the hub can quickly be detached from this and installed onto another swap cage/wheel. This makes it possible to share a hub between multiple bikes or keep the hub when you change your bike. Of course, this isn't as simple as fitting a new derailleur or cassette, but it should make the gear hub easier to live with.
ThoughtsWhile the VII only offers seven speeds, the gearing range should be enough for most people. Fewer gears mean less weight and the VII isn't all that far off the weight of some derailleur drivetrains. Yes, it's still heavier, but not by an amount that should keep anyone up at night. Drivetrain drag and the inability to shift under load are still huge drawbacks of many gearbox systems and I don't know how Kindernay's hubs stack up on those fronts, but the swap cage system and shifter design look promising. It would be interesting to see it fitted to some rugged bike-packing bike where reliability is king.
Is it still too heavy? Are seven gears enough? Let us know what you think in the comments.
But don't we shift traditional derailleurs under load because we're in the wrong gear and you have to pedal to change gear, a gearbox/hub gear would allow you to choose the correct gear before we need it rather than when it's too late. I think it would be fine once you get used to it but we're all so accustomed to having to pedal to change gear. Imagine if a car could only change gear when you're on the gas.
Seb Stott's recent article mentioned how hub gears tend to create less friction than gearboxes and that it was only slightly less efficient than a derailleur. Once you take into account worn/dirty chains and poor chainline then there's probably nothing in it for an average rider.
I think a good gearbox solution could be made but it needs the big players to get behind it. Less drag, less weight and a single cable thumb shifter.
I guess that reinforces my point that when you can (or cant) shift isn't the reason gearboxes don't sell, it's only a minor issue.
Complicated engineering waffle” - so good!!!!
That in turn has made me feel foolish and afraid of this advance, so I shall now be taking a passionate anti-gearbox stance going forward until a celebrity (/Levy) tells me to do otherwise.
The brake side hub arm and the hydraulic dock needed to be modified to actually mount within the frame appropriately, and while this is explained in their technical documents it does bear mentioning that Horst Link bikes or bikes with wide and limiting chainstay or seatstay pivots would likely not be easily compatible with this design especially since this Yeti with a glorified single pivot presented clearance issues.
I have yet to read the updated tech docs, but its also noteworthy that the hydraulic interface was sealed via axle preload pressure on the version we installed. This caused two issues, one was that if the axle wasn’t extremely tight, shifting was inconsistent as you’d get pressure loss in the form of leaks. The other was changing tires, or installing a tube in a cut tire would almost always compromise our bleed meaning shifting was not ideal.
To be clear, this was our only experience with the hub and though our service department is quite highly esteemed (we get a fair amount of mail in work from other shops and do any suspension work except for dumb Brain or Cannondale junk in house), we very well might have made a mistake in installing the hub. The concept is awesome, especially as shifting under moderate load was actually quite smooth, but not yet executed in a way that I could recommend except for a handful of high clearance sliding dropout hardtail frames. Factor in the need for a highly tensioned chain tensioner for full squish rigs and you may as well toss a derailleur group on. Got to applaud Kindernay though, the concept was pretty cool to work on.
- Cost of the part itself
- cost of the replacement part from wear and tear
- cost of maintenance
The other factors are:
- availability from OEM
Anyone can talk about gearboxes, other planetary gears, and other types of shifting all they want, if the cost and availability are not there to meet the masses, it's moot. The article says that derailleurs are not reliable, but it is. It's simple, readily available, and can be cheap to replace. However, some manufacturers have made it their missions to make gear shifting with derailleurs incompatible with older generations and making their parts increasingly expensive than what it needs to be.
But I have successfully bent and cable tied a broken mech back into shape well enough to get home on 2 occasions and on one occasion even got one good enough to do the Whole Enchilada after wrecking it about a quarter of the way down. That last one might have literally saved my life, half a litre of water would not have been enough to hike back to Moab with
That said on another dozen occasions I had to coast or singlespeed it back to base, but at least SS is an option
I've ridden derailleur geared bikes since 1977 and I've only had one broken derailleur (and another one stolen). That broken derailleur was caused by a rusted chain jamming the derailleur cage into the rear wheel spokes after riding it in heavily salted streets in the winter (funny thing was I had washed and regreased my chain and drivetrain the previous night). All my mountain biking - in thick mud, rocks, roots, thick brushes, and even hitting trees - never broken any derailleurs. Had clutch slip problems - fixed either by popping in another Shimano clutch mechanism or by properly greasing the clutch with proper lubrication.
I have to say though, the rear derailleurs made by Shimano back in the late 80's and 90's, notably the LX and XT, were solid and worked beautifully across 7-9 speed cassettes. I still use those for either commuting and another on my classic hardtail as a backup. Just flawless with the old thumb shifters that can go up and down 7 shifts all at once!
Yep I’m ridiculously unlucky with mechs, I’ll admit 3-4 of those where my bad for poor shifting or mech setup and one was a case (Oakley roadgap on SuperMorzine) so bad my wheel folded so much it took the mech with it but apart from that it’s all rock strikes and crashes
All 10-11 speed Shimano, the older stuff was rock solid. Or maybe I was just a pussy back then
But for the rough hilly terrain I ride, the differences between these bikes are much more related to geometry and suspension travel than weight or drag. It is the ZERODE that gets by far the most use as it never needs adjustment or drivetrain maintenance, and can deal with the gnarliest trails without worrying about dropping chains or bending or losing derailleurs. Changing up or down is instant once you learn to time changes to the top of your pedal stroke; not unlike matching revs when driving a car with a manual gearbox and equally satisfying. A gearbox is brilliant and certainly the way of the future. Sure, less weight and more efficiency would be ideal. But for now, the bomb-proof function and ability to change multiple gears while pedalling, coasting or standing still outweigh the minor disadvantages. And rear suspension behaviour is also much improved without a 400gm cassette and 300gm derailleur hanging off the rear triangle.
But maybe an interesting base to integrate in a frame like the original Zerode, Lahar, GT or Nicolaï ? Since you can take the GB unit out of the shell it could be easier to integrate.
All that said, Hayes group once bought the PeteSpeed patent from B1 (BeOne) but never did anything with it. Not sure why. The construction (derailleur in a box, similar to what Honda used) is so simple that I expect it to be cheaper than both Pinion and Effigear. If Hayes group can offer gearing, they could compete right up against SRAM in the OEM market.
Next time you're making a coffee and you go to grab the milk, hold it and an arms length and shake it, you'll notice how hard it it versus if you were holding it close.
More unsprung mass makes for a frothy coffee but less traction and worse handling.
Which means how much built in obsolescence current derailleurs have?
worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=GB&NR=2434565&KC=&FT=E&locale=en_EP
But you got to wonder about how e- bikes will develop!
Especially with a product like this & a sealed chain drive?
Could a downhill scooter win a world cup?
On a track with little pedaling, YES 100%?
But your point is spot on, quite a few brands have played around with an integrated Nexus (or later Alfine) as part of the frame design. I always liked Zerode’s original approach, though that was a very neat solution.
The pictures I made are circulating the web now and many said its the first time they saw a snapped AXS.
My LBS was surprised too.
Therefore I call the disengage function just a marketing gimmick because all my 6 damaged GX drivetrains did not snap and I could limp back and some could be ridden again with a bit of a smack.
@Serpentras: Conventional mechanical rear mechs don't need the protection because the the mech is already free to move inwards in case of impact. AXS works with a servo instead of a cable so it doesn't have that freedom so they needed the protection system to fix the issue it introduced. Never would have expected they would market it as a feature. The first generation Shimano Saint (2004) was rapid rise which implies the cable pulls the mech outwards. So the mech back then also had that protection system. In 2007 they went back to top normal (even though the mech indeed looked similar and they only introduced a real new generation in 200 and they could forego the protection system. Not sure about Hone 2005. Maybe that rear mech had the protection too. But either way, calling these features is a stretch. They are merely workarounds for self-induced problems.
I've been considering ordering one of these for a hardtail build. I like the supposed longevity, lower maintenance, and rear end aesthetics. However, I have some hydra wheels and a Shimano 12s drivetrain that are still in good shape... I think it's a lot of investment and I'm a little hesitant that there isn't much out there as far as reviews/ user reports with kindernay's xiv IGH that came out a few years ago.
Some other points I didn't see mentioned.
The VII are compatible with normal 6b rotors unlike the XIV which need their own proprietary 7 bolt rotors.
24 pts of engagement
1) buying a SRAM eagle cassette (and drivetrain)
2) riding in mud deeper than your tires
Most derailleur these days are recessed below the rear hanger so that if you fall or ride through thick vegetation, the derailleur and cage are not going to be take the brunt of the forces. Also using the wet lube has got to be one of the grossest things as it attracts mud and dirt like a magnet and then it gunks up so bad!
*Grip shift is not acceptable.
*5:1 gear range is minimum acceptable, though 6:1 would be great.
*I realize that derailleur/chain levels of efficiency won't be reached, but close would be acceptable.
The problem is that the current system is actually really good in many ways, so there is only a small drive for a new design.
The Swap cage is clever, and a big deal. Being able to run multiple wheelsets either on the same bike or swap the gearbox hub between bikes (even if that means moving the shifter lever and housing as well) between e.g. home and alpine bikes, or summer and winter bike is nice.
Interesting, but I see nothing on their website about using with Gates Carbon Drive, or belts at all? And no search function or FAQ...........
www.cyclingabout.com/kindernay-vii-gearbox-hub
www.cyclingabout.com/kindernay-xiv-hub-14-speed-internally-geared-hub
Perhaps these folks could build an equally well designed frame mounted gearbox?
Geared hubs are a work around, best suited for touring where the bike is loaded with panniers and the added weight on the rear wheel doesn't make as much difference.
Even e-bikes use standard drivetrain instead BB area, however this is a perfect candidates for drivetrain revolution
Still, pretty soon there will be transmissions attached to the motor on an e-bike and that would seem to make the most sense.
What ever would they call a 2 wheeled vehicle with a motor and transmission?
142 & 148 no 157 -stop
Needs chain device like Rd - stop
7speed if 600€ = ok - stop
www.cycleworld.com/story/bikes/ducati-seamless-shift-transmission
Or maybe I'm thinking of reducing the weight on the rear wheel. OR I just have no idea what I'm talking about.
Really?
Grammar's hard, as PB articles tend to demonstrate, but us dumb bikers don't even deserve a spellcheck?