History and Deception - Opinion
Paul Brodie photo archive
Excelsior's 1919 OHC board track racer was arguably the fastest motorcycle of its time - more than 120 miles an hour, and it had pedals. It was a limited-production racing machine that roared to life at the high-point of the sport, when every major city in the United States had a massive, high-banked oval raceway and motorcycle races packed grandstands to capacity. Board track racing began as an offshoot of bicycle racing, which at the turn of the century, was raging in the US. Motorcycles of the time were literally motorized bicycles that puttered along at 30 or 40 miles an hour at best. They were commonly used to "motor-pace" bicycle racers, who drafted behind them around wooden velodromes. The outright speed of motor-paced races captured the imaginations of fans, who quickly discovered that motorcycle racing was far more entertaining than bicycle racing.
As one may imagine, every major bicycle brand was soon making motorcycles. Massive wooden velodromes were erected, each larger than its predecessor, as racing-driven engine technology pushed speeds beyond the public's imaginations. By 1913, motorcycles still looked like pedal-bicycles with an engine, but had breached 100 miles an hour. By 1919, when Excelsior owner Ignaz Schwinn ordered the development of the OHC, he needed to top 120 miles an hour to win. To reach that goal, the new V-twin engine was designed with overhead camshafts, driven by bevel-gears which extended its RPM range, and some reports say the bike could reach 130. The OHC should have dominated the 1920 racing season, but that was not to be. Bob Perry, Excelsior's star racer, was killed competing on January 4, 1920. Ignaz Schwinn had the remaining OHC's destroyed, retired from racing, and a decade later he was out of the motorcycle business.
Paul Brodie photo archive
The History Lesson
The Excelsior's spindly, bicycle-inspired frame and fork are telling reminders that bicycle makers, however large or small, are merely frame-builders who's final product is pieced together from a shopping list of accessories produced outside their factories. The bicycle frame plays a crucial role when it is powered by a thinking, feeling human, crippled by self-doubt and barely able to muster a third of a horsepower on a good day. We feel, (or at least, believe we can feel) the slightest nuance of its power transfer and road-handling qualities. Every aspect of the rider's performance is translated through its chassis and, because human power is so limited, less bicycle equals more performance. Bike makers live and die by that simple formula. The addition of a motor, however, reversed that equation.
Engine builders could increase power as needed, so suddenly, more equaled more. Boosting power incrementally enabled motorcycle makers to add features like sturdier frames, fenders, better brakes, suspension, and wider wheels and tires - all without paying a performance penalty. It didn't take long for motorcycle makers to realize that they needed more engine designers, not frame builders. I imagine then as now, customers asked the same three questions: "How much power does it have? How fast will it go? And, how much does it cost?" Frame construction and geometry? Probably not.
The history lesson that the Excelsior OHC teaches is that the power source is the most important aspect of the bike, and if you add a motor to a bicycle, the motor becomes the star of the show. The deception
The history lesson that the Excelsior OHC teaches is that the power source is the most important aspect of the bike, and if you add a motor to a bicycle, the motor becomes the star of the show. The deception
Specialized's top-drawer S-Works Turbo Levo debuted with a 530-watt motor - double the power of its competitors. It's doubtful, though, that the $9500 superbike could compete with one of the latest 750-watt motors bolted into a slightly heavier and less-expensive chassis. Specialized photo
The Deception
The history of the electric powered bicycle will teach us a much different lesson - that self-deception may be excusable, but purposely deceiving others is not. Like the 1919 Excelsior, today's electric bicycles also have pedals, and neither were intended to be pedal-powered. The Excelsior had no electrical system, so its rider could use the pedals as an emergency starter to re-fire the engine if it quit during a race. Today's electric powered bike has pedals because they created a legal loophole that allowed manufacturers to successfully lobby that they were power-assisted bicycles, not motorbikes, and thus dodge complicated and expensive safety regulations, as well as licensing and insurance requirements that motorcycles and motor scooters must comply with for highway use.
"Highway use" is the key phrase, because with few exceptions, none of the legal restrictions to electric powered bicycles, like maximum speeds and pedal-assisted power transmission were intended to apply to off-highway use. An electric powered off-road bicycle is essentially unrestricted - except for the fact that it has a motor. While there are many places in the world where motorized off-road vehicles are legally welcome, most of the world's choice mountain bike destinations are not among them.
To understand why this is important, consider that the solitary reason that mountain bikes gained access to trails where motorized vehicles of any sort were banned was because they are human powered - and it was a tenuous handshake - we were not welcomed by traditional users with open arms. If we had told them up front, that pedaling uphill was too difficult, so we were going to use motors, mountain bikes would have been permanently banned - end of story.
Arguably, the same would be true today, and motorized bicycle makers are well aware of that dilemma. So, rather than negotiating their case for motorized access to non-motorized riding areas, they devised an end-game.
The deception was simple: Bicycle industry and pedal-assist motor makers would first lobby government and transportation officials to give
To understand why this is important, consider that the solitary reason that mountain bikes gained access to trails where motorized vehicles of any sort were banned was because they are human powered - and it was a tenuous handshake - we were not welcomed by traditional users with open arms. If we had told them up front, that pedaling uphill was too difficult, so we were going to use motors, mountain bikes would have been permanently banned - end of story.
Arguably, the same would be true today, and motorized bicycle makers are well aware of that dilemma. So, rather than negotiating their case for motorized access to non-motorized riding areas, they devised an end-game.
The deception was simple: Bicycle industry and pedal-assist motor makers would first lobby government and transportation officials to give
If and when e-bikes become an established off-road user group, they won't have to pretend any longer. Unlike their counterparts on the highway, riders of so-called e-mountain bikes will not be regulated by lane separation, established traffic controls, and ample law enforcement. And, they won't be travelling at comparable speeds with other users. Once their wheels leave the highway and cross onto dirt, they will be free to set their own limits - and they won't be slow. If history and human nature are not enough to convince you, imagine the boys at Specialized not responding with a significant increase in speed and power after choking down a review from a German publication that stated Trek was 12-percent faster on the climbs and six-percent quicker to 45 KPH. Professional off-road e-bike competition is already established and all the key players are in. History, it seems, is poised to repeat itself.
So, What Happens to Mountain Bikes?
The truth is: e-bikes never were mountain bikes. They were never designed to be human powered. Anyone who has been unfortunate enough to pedal one with a dead battery can attest to that. E-bike makers, however, convinced a lot of people that they actually were mountain bikes and explaining that lie, unfortunately, will fall upon mountain bikers, who will also bear the brunt of the inevitable user-conflicts and burnt bridges that will be left in the wake of electric-powered off-road cyclists.
The fact that so many of the sport's major brands betrayed our assurance that mountain bikers would be human powered partners of like-minded back-country users, is not going to be easy to explain away when we return to the negotiating table asking for trail access. We will suffer losses, but I am certain that mountain bike riders and mountain bike makers who stayed true to the sport will continue to flourish, and some brands that jumped on e-bike bus will find their way back home. The mighty Excelsior OHC also tells that story.
After Ignaz Schwinn abandoned motorcycles,
Pioneer Schwinn Excelsior mountain bike. MOMBAT photo archive
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Thank you once again for your articulate, clear perspective, Mr. Cunningham; you are a true grandmaster of the mountain biking media. I hope that we can someday look back on your words as marking a turning point for our sport... time may well prove this article the most important Pinkbike ever publishes. Until then, it is undoubtedly among the finest.
"[...] Consider that the solitary reason that mountain bikes gained access to trails where motorized vehicles of any sort were banned was because they are human powered - and it was a tenuous handshake - we were not welcomed by traditional users with open arms. If we had told them up front, that pedaling uphill was too difficult, so we were going to use motors, mountain bikes would have been permanently banned - end of story."
"[...] Explaining [the] lie, unfortunately, will fall upon mountain bikers, who will also bear the brunt of the inevitable user-conflicts and burnt bridges that will be left in the wake of electric-powered off-road cyclists."
I notice that your article is labeled, "Opinion". It should instead be labeled, "Truth".
My doctors kept telling me to not ride bikes, even worst if it was in the mountain. Avoid it -was the speech.
I am afraid it will catch me sometime, somehow. When that time arrives, in where I cannot use my Giant Reign or my 2011 Enduro, I will for sure, go for an E-Bike.
And there is a lot of people that would die to get into a bike and do whatever we do on the mountains, but they may not have the knowledge, access or the money for an E-bike.
Open your eyes guys.
We cannot expect those not involved in the cycling world to educate themselves on the subject and understand how the E-bike works, that it is assisted and not an electric motorbike, we cant expect them to understand why a bicycle is capable of climbing that hill they are struggling to walk up at 15mph startling them and their dog as they were only used to looking out for cyclists on the way down / flat.
We can expect the public to think of increased trail damage, increased risk of collision with other users and increases in speed and potential for insurance to be void all of which will upset a fragile balance in some communities and lead to the minority losing, and remember we are the minority.
The E-bike being used by those phyiscally less able is a noble cause but not enough to risk blowing it for everybody.
Fact is Fact, an E-bike is a bicycle in form but it is not propelled entirely by a human being so to many it will always be a motorcycle, to me it is the most un-welcome development in off-road cycling (love the idea for commuting though!) to date, its a money maker for brands and from what I have seen on my local trails mainly a tool for the lazy.
"The E-bike being used by those phyiscally less able is a noble cause but not enough to risk blowing it for everybody."
thank you for sayin what i have been sayin all along.
I am afraid we may have to do the opposite as a community and distance ourselves from Ebikes if we want to keep our right to use certain trails.
The E-bike is not a new mtb standard, it is the motorisation of a push bicycle, the alteration of its founding principle of being powered by the person riding it alone and not by any kind of assistance be that a motor or engine.
"Like the 1919 Excelsior, today's electric bicycles also have pedals, and neither were intended to be pedal-powered."
E bikes with Shimano Steps, Bosch and Yamaha e drives MUST be pedaled to deliver their assist so that statement is at best false and given RC's knowledge deceptive. When I took the Lapierre Overvolt on my first over night demo I didn't take the charger.
I rode it 20km on a rolling 4 lane highway at the same average speed as my Felt Virtue 920 with no assist no problem. Like a DH bike once you get a mid drive e bike rolling they carry their speed very well. I rode that bike many times and to use the assist on the highway I'd have to concentrate AND pedal slow enough to keep the speed under 30 KMH to use the assist. It was much easier to average between 35 and 38 KMH without the assist so RC is misinforming readers when he says e bikes can't be pedaled without the assist.
If you ever rode one of these bikes and a motocross bike with 25 to 30 HP you would understand why I'm calling bullshit on RC. He compares e bikes to the Excelsior that was built to exceed 100 miles per hour. The only way any e assist bike will reach 100 MPH if its attached to a car driving on a highway at that speed. RC is too knowledgeable to make such a stupid comparison acceptable.
e bike critics like you and apparently RC equate pedal assist with effortless riding. Anyone who thinks you just sit on your ass on an e bike or a motorcycle when riding off road has obviously never tried it but RC has.
You need to do some research. Go watch some motocross and off-road enduro racing. A motor doesn't make either of those sports effortless or easy. Gravity makes pedaling a lot easier but it doesn't make bike riding effortless.
When was the last time you weren't tired from coasting your DH bike down the mountain all day at gravity bike park? Yeah, gravity is a pedal assist too but it doesn't make riding a DH bike effortless does it? The blown out trails at the bike parks also are an excellent indication of how regular bikes without motors destroy trails in short order too.
While you could plop your ass on on an e bike and meander your way down your local trails with little pedaling effort you won't be going as fast as you do on your regular bike. To do that you have to work at it and if you put in the same effort you do on your regular bike you'll be riding about the same speed as an elite XC racer. BUT you'll have to be able to handle that 50+ pound bike at that speed and it will be hard to do.
RC hit the other popular panic button with the land access issue and in doing so insults every land manager out there. They already already know the concern is social not environmental and being informed about all things bike so does RC. Its unfortunate RC is using his industry icon status to rally the anti e bike movement, a movement that is based mostly on ignorance and bias.RC knows that too. Sounds pretty familiar to me.
My two decades of experience in trail advocacy of BC says that you are wrong at least in the BC context. I am curious as to how you could reach such a different conclusion. Speak to the TORCA and BC Parks context if you wish. I am trying to keep an open mind here
Only the biased, uninformed and the misinformed draw a direct comparison between motorcycles and e bikes. The power output and experience have only two wheels in common. Even the cultures are very different.
I worked closely with the BC Parks District Manager and BMBC members worked closely with SFU, BC Forests and BC Hydro when we were active. At the time the decision makers worked with all stake holders to separate MTB fact from fiction and make good decisions. MTBs gained access as a result.
The current decision makers will do the same thing with e bikes. TORCA and I have never had a good working relationship so its no surprise we would disagree on this too.
Time to stop mucking about and ban these things from normal trail centres before the problems begin. Of course it is not an mx bike as you still have to pedal but allowing the unfit and possibly low skill set to do stupid speeds in areas of the trail where it would be usually impossible is wrong, its just not mountain biking anymore.
Bike (bicycle); something with two to four wheels and handlebars that is powered by a person's physical activity and of course gravity (yeoo).
Motorbike (motorcycle); Something with two to four wheels and handlebars that has a motor which is used to move it.
Hmm... Which of these categories would an E-bike fit in...
How can an E-bike be a mountain bike?
I think the companies have been very clever to label these new styled E-bikes as mountain bikes. It is something that makes sense (in a way) and has because of this made people confused. They look exactly like mountain bikes and they made for riding on mountains. However, they have motors.
There are different categories for both bikes and motorbikes.
There are road motorbikes, road-bikes, trials motorbikes, trials bikes, off road motorbikes and mountain bikes. There are others too of course. The point being this is a mountain motorbike.
I would love to ride an E-bike. They look like a lot of fun, but they shouldn't be classified together with bikes. This is important because when in the E-Future(the future if E-bikes are lumped together with bikes/Evil future.) I’m flying uphill under my own power, showing how awesome I am, I will be heartbroken if I hear "It's probably one of those E-bikes" said by a walker on a multi-user track. I joke (a little (everyone is allowed to believe they are awesome)), but the point is if they are allowed on all the multi-user tracks many people will not see the difference. "So what" I hear you say. "E-bikes aren't any worse than bikes. It's the users that make the problems." Yes. This is true anyone can be an idiot riding downhill too fast. However, I think that it comes from judgement. When I was younger, I didn't have the experience to know what was too fast and i crashed. And this means that i could have potentially crashed into other users or scared them. When you crash from going too fast, when you are getting into biking, though, you'll probably find that actually you weren't going that fast and that it was just a speed you couldn't handle. I think it happens to everyone. I believe that given how easy it is to go fast on E-bikes without needing any riding experience the crashes will be more serious, and a lot of other track users will be more scared from in experienced riders going too fast.
I would love to ride an E-bike. They look like a lot of fun, but they shouldn't be classified together with bikes.
As well, they make more damage. Just check out the responsible Pinkbike cameramen doing donuts in the Cube’s E-bike advertisement here on Pinkbike labelled “EWS Finale Ligure Preview: The Finale Countdown.” People say that the back wheel does not spin from a stationary start. Maybe yes or maybe no, but once you are riding around im sure it is easy enough to find ways to get that backwheel spinning. Again i reference the cameramen doing donuts. Who have you ever seen who can do donuts ona non- motorised bike? Or do burn outs? Yes, some mountain bikers can do trail damage but they usually very experienced riders who have sense about where and when it is appropriate to unleash these beastly skills. Yes, some people abuse these skills but most don't. Handing any Tom, Dick or Harry the almost inhuman ability to drift a bike like Chris Kovarik is just wrong and very very likely to cause a lot more trail damage.
I do feel sorry for anyone who has been affected by a serious accident or afflicted with a serious illness which affects their ability to ride on many mtb trails, but I think these people should accept their limitatiins and consider that making special rules for them may have larger consequences than just their sadness from not being able to ride their favorite trail again. It could potentially lead to many other mountain bikers losing their ability or rights to ride on their favorite trails. If for example E-bikes were to become a problem in the future as some people believe. If i were to lose my legs tragically(touch wood) i would be happy to ride along anything i was allowed and not expect to ride all the previou amazing trails i used to ride.
And i definitely dont think the poor cameramen need to use them. They got on fine when E-bikes didn't exist.There were still epic mountain biking photos in existence a few years back, i'm sure with a litlle creative thinking like..i don't know..taking less camera equipment when you want to go to more difficult to get to places or possibly just accepting that carrying equipment up mountains is part of being a mountain bike photographer, may solve their problems Ps. I do enjoy and appreciate all the great photos i get to see on this site..
I could go on, but it is likely that most people have already stopped reading and i would be talking to myself. Again.
"I do feel sorry for anyone who has been affected by a serious accident or afflicted with a serious illness which affects their ability to ride on many mtb trails, but I think these people should accept their limitatiins and consider that making special rules for them may have larger consequences than just their sadness from not being able to ride their favorite trail again. It could potentially lead to many other mountain bikers losing their ability or rights to ride on their favorite trails."
again, thank you for also expressing what i have been talking about all along.
And if someone seriously wants to just ride some regular, double track trails with a mountainbike... Does it really need to be a 30mph, 500+ W Machine? Can we still consider something like this a "mobility aid"? From my point of view, limit EMTBs to 10 mph, then they will be great tools for climbing mountains, but no "fun motorcycles".
@Racer951: "Only today somebody is discussing their ebike on my local trails forum with lots of people saying he should chip it to derestrict the bike to 30mph, some saying they have already done so on their own bike."
Nothing easier than that. Enter a small wheel diameter in the control unit and these things go like stink... Common practice amongst E-Bikers.
I would argue the engineers at spec thought "hey wouldn't it be cool if we could put and electric motor on this stumpy and ride for twice as long?"
i know you were talking about trail conditions, but my biggest fear is uphill ebikes/downhill pedal bike collisions.
its gonna happen and it is gonna be sad, brutal, painful.
imagine its your 3rd run of the day at your fave truck shuttle trails...you've done your pre ride, you've done your 75 percent warm up, and now you are gonna open it up on your third run................except 'e bike new guy' is riding up the trail/track at a fair speed, and you meet, just after a blind corner...............
makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it.
Go full gas only on dedicated DH trails, without the risk of collision - for me, your argument seems unrelated to eBikes.
It's not the bike or vehicle that is the problem, it is the PERSON operating them that creates the problem. For example, a pedal assist E-Bike is nothing like a motor/dirt bike and I'm speaking from a long history (20+ yrs) of riding mountain bikes, dirt bikes, and now E-bikes. They don't pollute or disrupt the environment any different from a mountain bike. In fact, the tires are the exact same tires on my mountain bikes and the weight is the same as my older 90's downhill bikes. Also, a pedal assist E-bike is not able burn rubber or spin tires like a motorcycle can, so, how could they damage the trails anymore? It's disrespectful individuals that are damaging trails. Variables like building trails wrong, riding when wet, and dragging your brakes when downhilling all cause erosion, ultimately damaging trails. It is sad to hear all the hardcore mountain bikers responding and talking about riding by good old pedal power, but yet, I see a lot of you doing shuttle runs or catching chair lifts to get some downhill runs in. We as a community should be supporting all things cycling (road, dirt, commute, electric, etc...) and it all comes down to AWARENESS & RESPECT.
From the beginning of time, we have had to battle this issue with automobiles on the streets and horse riders/hikers in the mountains. The only way we were able to utilize the roads or trails is to respect one another and all user groups. If you are riding a pedal assist Ebike out on the trails be respectful of the environment and other fellow trail users, as you should regardless of your bike choice. Now, here is where the line becomes blurred, if you are riding a HIGH powered THROTTLE based Ebike, then go to your local motocross facilities and enjoy. The petro/gas powered gear-heads will give you shit out there but get over it and ride whatever gets you out to ride. Just respect the trails and those using it...
if people will walk up bike park dh trails, they will ride ebikes up dh dedicated shuttle trails.
yeah, it's a dangerous sport. i'm fine with the chance that I may hurt myself in a crash. i'm not fine with hurting some poor hiker or running over someone's dog because I think my fun is more important than their safety. stop being so selfish.
- Guy who hikes, rides with my dog, and hasn't run over a person or dog yet.
"Pedal-assistance bikes" are becoming a threat on trails around here...they even destroyed our jumps to make the trails "pedallable"...
glad no one was hurt and or ruined expensive gear.
The eBike debate is different for me, due to the inherent speed differential regardless of the idiot fringe.
They have no place in the forests or bike parks for bicycles and I will throw stones at anyone who overtakes me uphill on one in the future! Or start investing in EMP weaponry if it exists.
I didnt know that Haibikes team riders trained on E-bikes and i dont realy care. I am willing to bet that they would be able to replicate same results traning on most any other bike! But what do i know from working whit athleets ewery day!
Ayup. I rode one up a tough granny-gear climb with no effort whatsoever. On the real bike, it was a gut buster.
The acceleration to 35km/h was pretty crazy, although after this it was unassisted so top speed was limited. I wasn't hugely near my Strava PB on the flat road section (that I set with a road bike), due to the top speed limitation, however the eBike acceleration was crazy.
I then took on a steep hill that I usually struggle up in my granny gear... and it just flew up. It was pretty shocking (no pun intended).
I can't imagine what the 'top power' models are like, but they are *definitely* not bikes, mountain or otherwise.
Edit: I think I misunderstood the point you were trying to make, in which case this reply is kind of pointless, but whatever :s
RC's point is that an e-bike is compromised, in performance terms, *when the pedal assist is not available* and there's no disputing that - maybe you could stick some lower gears on so e-bike that 20kg+ heft can be dragged up a hill after the battery's died, but those low gears will mean you're going to be doing it a lot slower than you could, for the same effort, on a standard trail bike.
Not on mountainbike trails in any of the places I've lived. Dirtbike trails are more difficult to find in my experience, which makes sense given the noise and pollution that dirtbikes make.
You can't ride a dirtbike half-arsed either, so e-bikes are ideal for the half-arsed segments, also known as the majority, of the population.
Though I cant see these same people who will get an ebike "for starters" going the other way with it, and transitioning to a non e-bike once they get the "experience"
Lets be honest, it's not a $5000 pair of training wheels. It's an entirely new transport method and ethos.
Let the lines in the sand show that!
It's not about demonizing, it's about demarcation!
@deadmeat25 I've had a rethink and can only conclude that you aren't a true bro. Just kidding. But srsly
I am a MTBer as well, I must admit an e-bike would be super fun, (I don't think anyone wouldn't agree with that) but that's not the issue around ebikes!
Most of the good riding around me is a minimum of 5-6 miles away from home with fairly average bridalways to get there. The really good stuff is 15 miles away which I generally drive to. An e-mtb would cut down the "commute" time and allow me to ride more in the same time. I would still be sharing bridalways with horses and walkers / dog walkers so can't go crazy.
Given all of the above though I still like getting there and back under my own steam hence will keep pedalling and get fitter.
ebikes aren't slow versions of "real" motorcycles. They are in fact, motorcycles. Not just sort of a motor cycle, but precisely a motorcycle. The fastest production motorcycle in the world is electric. You may have only seen one family riding about slowly. But that isn't the reality that we are facing with ebikes. They are full fledged motorcycles and must be treated as such. They aren't slow and they aren't any safer than gas powered bikes.
It isn't that ebikes/motorcycles are bad. Rather, it is important that we recognized ebikes as, and treat ebikes as what they are, motorcycles.
But you're still riding an ebike on the trails and that's the issue!
Also, you're right a newbie wouldnt spend 5k, to classify that though I would say someone would only buy an ebike with no intention of ever getting into another bike.
Tl:dr just check out his round up in bold at the bottom.
It would be a mistake to try and manage the emerging issue of ebike trail access as if they were slow vehicles. They aren't slow and are they getting faster every year. Because being motorized makes weight less of an issue, incredibly fast ebikes don't cost more than today's carbon trail bikes. It isn't necessary to spend money to shave grams. As a result they cost less and weigh more. The evolution isn't complete but the end result is predictable.
Attempting to categorize the various types of ebikes, and then control access based on categories, is not feasible. The battery and motor needed to make a slow bike will look almost indistinguishable from that of a fast bike. Permitting access for one category of ebike will effectively be permitting access for all ebikes. My prediction is that governments don't yet understand that inevitability and will pass unenforceable laws. After a few years people will finally understand the impossibility of permitting access for only slow ebikes.
The controversy around ebike access has only just started. This will soon be the most important topic in the cycling community.
Exploring, touring, a platform for riders who, for whatever reason, can no longer ride a regular push bike, getting us all out in the open...why the f not? Limit the motor to top out at 15mph, after that you're on your own - if we need any legislation why not let that be it?
I've been hit by 2 women on e-bikes trying to keep up with their husbands on normal bikes while coming downhill. All on trails posted as "no motorized access"
Don't know why, but it irked me pretty bad. They're capable machines but you need to have the skills to keep them in check. A 530 watt motor is a ton. I think the best I've ever done for an extended period is 250watts. I couldn't imagine trying to go up the hill reasonably with 3x the power.
They're neat, but so are motorcycles. I think they should share singletrack access with motos.
Good point. I can easily the same scenario if they were on regular bikes too. The onus is on the more experienced rider. But I can see where eBikes could increase this kind of conflict.
From the Spesh website for the FSR; "Hikers on Mt. Tam used to say we're crazy. Roadies called it a fad. Clunkers, tension discs— we left our eyes open, heads down, and kept designing. We kept evolving, and today, the Women's Turbo Levo FSR embodies a design unimaginable 40 years ago—a trail bike with 530 watts of power on the climbs. A trail bike that gives you the power to ride more trails."
They sure got the last laugh with those "Hikers".....
I wish I had a reasonable, clear and clean solution to this problem; I have none. That e-bikes represent a credible and imminent threat to our sport is manifest; whether the threat stems from their potential for flagrant misuse, or their existence outright, is far less clear. At this point, my tentative answer is this: that there is perhaps a speed that NO trail user, regardless of discipline, should be allowed to exceed on a given shared-use trail, for the sake of public safety. That doesn't seem too unreasonable, and it's pretty fundamental. Many professional racers, I am sure, can descend just as quickly on a conventional mountain bike as an average rider could on an e-bike. If Richie Rude came blasting down one of my local shared-use trails, he would not be spared the ire of hikers and equestrians just because there's no motor involved; he would be put to the torch for speeding just as surely as an overenthusiastic e-biker would. It clearly isn't the philosophical "impurity" of an e-bike that makes it problematic; it's the speed and associated potential for trail damage.
Two more thoughts. Firstly, it seems to me that e-bikes will for the forseeable future be acceptable in bike parks. Descending at 20 miles per hour only puts e-bikes in conflict with non-bicycle trail users, and it seems absurd to imagine an e-biker colliding with a regular rider at 20 miles per hour on a climb. Secondly, I can think of another special circumstance, other than disability, that might allow for e-bike use - park rangers. I'm not one, so I wouldn't know for certain, but it seems to me that in many regions, patrolling footpaths by 27.5+ e-bike would be tremendously more efficient than by horseback or on foot, and even more so in an emergency.
Anyway. The first and most urgent fundamental question before us is, "Are e-MTBs mountain bikes?" When that question has been answered, the next will most likely be, "Should e-bikes be allowed on mixed-use trails under special circumstances?" The first question is one of definition and the second is one of policy; evidently, the question of policy is by far the more complicated of the two.
Sadly I see people much younger than me (I'm in my late 30's) on full power eBikes cruising along at ridiculous speeds on the same trails - and it irks me hugely. Just yesterday I was passed as if I was standing still by a twentysomething in a suit on their way to work on an eBike... I was doing ~35km/h at the time on a shared gravel road (which was arguably too fast).
The speeds involved are plain dangerous if people aren't sensible.
Yes, it could have happened on a regular bike. I feel like a 45lb bike with db5 or deore brakes is a pretty hard thing to stop controllably, compounded by someone with poor skills.
You and I have different ideas of fun. I've got a wife, kids and a motrgage financed by a career that requires me to stay healthy and not get hurt.
E-bikes absolutely belong as commuters. If you could ride to work more quickly, without gasoline and not get sweaty i think more people would be open to it.
Problem is all the drivers texting, playing pokemon go and the cost of said e-commuters
I work on BMWs for a living. Not exactly unique.
flashbackfab.com/excelsior-homepage
In my country, Norway, there is a bill on the table this autumn to allow ebikes on most trails. We have very strict laws on motorised access, e.g. no motorbikes, cars or snow mobiles outside regular roads in most parts of the country.
What I am pretty sure of is that this bill will have a built in trial period (say, ten years) to account for the ongoing technical and behavioural development. After this time the bill will be evaluated. If it turns out that access created motocross heaven, it will be a short lived proposition.
In a better world, bike industry would help the creation of new bikes parks, help to maintain the bikeparks, help to create and maintain new trails, and create a "bike lobby" to influence the bike related legislation. But this is not happening, they prefer to invest money in creating new standards, advertising ebikes and sometimes, they sponsor 1% of a bike related event just enough so they look cool
I understand the shuttle argument (driving cars up riding bikes down) but the difference is that motorized shuttle car never touches the trail. Whereas you're riding your electronic motorized bike back down on a non-motorized trail.
Electric bikes aren't slow or low-powered versions of "real" motorcycles. Three years ago, an electric motorcycle won the pikes peak hill climb. The fastest production motorcycle is an electric motorcycle. They can go over 200mph and do 0 to 60 mph in less than one second. And this technology is still progressing rapidly. While already fast, each year they are getting faster.
We could try banning just ebikes above a certain speed or power. Yet that would fail. It is impossible to enforce exactly which bikes are allowed or not allowed. Slow bikes look exactly the same as fast bikes. With that in mind, i am advocating that ebikes be considered motorcycles in terms of trail access.
www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/10-fastest-electric-motorcycles-0-60.html/?a=viewall
Here's it doing 0 to 60 in .8 seconds:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRO7vLXY_YA
Here's an electric bike doing 201mph in 6.94 seconds:
newatlas.com/lawless-rocket-occ-electric-drag-bike-speed-record/22584
"The Folly of Fools: the Logic of Deceit and Self-Deception in Human Life" Robert Trivers
Great article RC but in a way it is a blurry as reasons for the hatred towards e-bikes. So blurry are the reasons to use one. You write it from perspective of a mountain biker, leaving out the rest. Are E-bikes mountain bikes? What the hell is a mountain bike? DH bikes barely need pedals, so maybe they are not MTBs? Should Mountain bikes be allowed to ride in nature? Since when is that so clear? But we tend to get of our way and toss crap at E-bikes as if we somehow were given a position of leviathan.
In 5 years self-driving cars will be a reality. Why would you use your silly trail bike then? Get a DH rig pack it into the trunk of a Volvo XC90, drive up, get the bike out, send the car down and rip.
Vw -used to be the domain of the bearded geography teacher,not sure who drives them now.mini-women love these to sport their latest teaplate sized sunnies.all mitzi,ranger,hi lux,animal etc.flatbed euro trucks-driven by pretentious surveyors and civil engineers who turn up on the job with ha yah hunters and Rohan gilet.ford-driven by peasants and paupers..Saab were ruined by gm vectra.ranges ruined by people putting fantom kits on them and dealing coke.oh well.
i think your comments about all the car manufacturers is funny but all joking asides i think we all know its not good to judge people by what they drive.....sure we all do it a bit but honestly its not 100% accurate. I would deffo agree that stereotypes are mostly true but are not the total truth. Sure most volvo drivers may be old im never gonna be concidered young by any 20 year old as i am 38 but im not 90 either and i own one as a daily driver and until recently (cared more for cycling than expensive cars) also owned a skyline r32 gtr (having owned a 2 r33 gts-t's and a r34 gtt just previously whilst owning a nissan primera as a daily runner which had i have realized how much i like the volvo s60 would have gladly swapped the primera for as the daily driver).
Bunch of paedos all of them
f*ck me,am I that easy to read?ha ha ha ou yer basterd ha ha!
I hear the same "short sighted" argument that 250 watt trail assist Ebikes are harmless to the trails, and that is probably true.
Problem is the motors are not staying 250 watts. A local guy I know is building a custom fat bike right now with a 3000 watt motor ... this thing will roost like a moto!
This "Obvious" progression is why I have been against them from the start.
The progression is already happening ... in 2017 Specialized ad " these e-bikes are capable of achieving 45 Km/h while you pedal"
These are Motorcycles & should be banned for normal bike trails.
Obviously E-bikes are happening & will continue ... because short sighted greed motivates companies & the stupidity of the buying public allows things like this to succeed in modern society
point of curiosity, how many people have encountered ebikes out on the trails and had problems?
Back when I was in high school there was a great trail system close to me & it was open to all. Then the 4wheeler phenomenon happened. Idiots on 4wheelers destroyed that trail system very quickly after it had been there for years with no issues. The powers that be closed it to all but hikers. It finally got open to bicycles again years later.
To me Ebikes = 4wheelers in this current scenario ... that is why I'm so against them.
I see them as a destructive force that could damage biking.
If pedals separate a bike from a motorcycle then shouldn't children push bikes be banned?
(a silly argument but lets explore secondary effects and clarify definitions)
If it's not pedals that create the difference then whats stopping someone from ridding an electric dirtbike down trails? www.altamotors.co/redshiftsm#redshift-page1
The depicted Excelsior OHC has pedals and if powered by an electric motor could be considered an e-bike and have access to the same trails while being capable of 120mph.
While I do understand and see the idea of helping the mobility impaired. If it's a mobility issue and you want to see the parks than get a Motorized wheelchair.
"Wheelchairs (manually-operated or powerdriven)
are permitted on boardwalks and all
park trails (including within recommended
wilderness) as long as they are “devices designed
solely for use by a mobility-impaired
person for locomotion, that is suitable for use
in an indoor pedestrian area” per the Americans with disabilities act"
www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/upload/YELL446.pdf
If you claim you're disabled but can still ride a bicycle. Are you truly disabled? If so that sucks and I'm sorry but we can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time.
26" for life
oh and 26" for life
This article about the deception also relates to ourselves as a culture and how we relate to the products we make. We trick ourselves everyday that we buy things thinking we are better, faster, prettier, etc. I think we also trick our selves as this is called "progress". The progress is defiantly in how we are amazing at making things. But how strange we are getting fatter, lazier, apathetic, etc. this junk we buy is killing us! Read a book, eat less, talk to eachother in real life and ride a f*cking bike! Less is more. E-bikes are stupid. Only disabled people should use them.
I'm done now
Anyway - northern Germany is like Holland - lots of people riding their bikes for transportation. Kids, grown ups, old people. So the bike makers figured out there was a niche - people who commute by bike, and needed a boost. Say older people, who needed to get to town and didn't have a car. The helmet (people don't really wear helmets much when bike commuting - less need, as they are separate from traffic on their own bike paths) and license requirement (and insurance cost), and of course dealing with two-stroke engine noise and stink would have deterred them from a Mofa - but an ebike was awesome for them. Or folks like my parents - retired, like to ride bikes around pretty places, go from village to village on the bike paths and have coffee. The ebike gave them way more range, and made those pesky hills (few of those in Northern Germany) and headbreezes (more of them, for sure) a lot easier to deal with.
That all became bigger and bigger - ebikes took off like mad. All those Dutch style commuter bikes (think big, long wheelbase, noodly and relaxed steel cruisers with very upright seating position) with just enough e-assist to get you going more easily. Awesome for seniors - opened up way more options for them. Awesome for cheap commuting (get to work even in hilly places without getting all sweaty).
So @RichardCunningham 's point is right on - it's all about definitions, and niches, and laws. Because in Europe, their native habitat, ebikes live in a specific regulatory niche. Change the niche, and ebikes become something completely different. Problem is, here in the US, the niches are different. So it's really all about definitions.
We have niches for trail use. Motos on moto trails, human powered bikes on MTB trails. On private lands, it's of course whatever the land owner likes. On public lands, there are laws in there as well. But overall, let's not kid ourselves that definitions don't matter.
Think Hood River, OR. Huge trail system on public and private lands up in and beyond Post Canyon. There is a huge moto-legal section - tons of trails. Those get shut down due to fire danger for a few months in the summer. Lots of motos, lots of MTB - on separate trails. Electrified mountainbikes/mountain e-mopeds, whatever you want to call them - they'll have to be looked at with an eye towards real-world consequences for use, safety, liability, etc. Without all that emotional appeal that the industry is using to blur the lines - because while they obviously want their product regulated as lightly and permissively as possible to broaden the appeal, there is a bigger picture here.
As for the e-bikes on the roads, sure there are discussions as well. Not so much about the 25km/h max e-bikes, more about the high speed 45km/h ones. Not to ban them, more about their position on the road. But I'd see that as a very different category. On my bike I ride to work (Koga with internal 8sp Nexus gear hub, hub dynamo, big Catalyst pedals, no pedal assist) I typically ride between 30 and 35km/h. Matches nicely with the 25km/h folks. It would take a serious tail wind to hit 45km/h on that bike. On the cargo bike (Batavus, Odyssey BMX pedals, no pedal assist) with two kids and cargo I still ride between 20 and 25km/h. That's how fast I'd go without pedal assist and that's how fast someone with pedal assist would be going. It doesn't matter one bit in terms of safety.
The industry is trying to get their product classified as bikes here because it means they get to broaden its appeal. To that end, they want them treated just like regular bicycles - no license required to ride one (unlike, say, a moped or scooter); no registration or insurance, no restriction on using bike lanes (the US isn't very good at separating bikes from automobile traffic - unlike those nice bike paths in Holland or Germany or Belgium, here bikes tend to get lumped into a lane on the road, with only a thin strip of paint for protection from traffic).
But in all that, they are also trying to not have any limits on what counts as an ebike. So the distinction between 25 and 45 km/h models? Not so much - there are just ebikes. And once they get the states to sign off on all that, the next step will be to lobby that an ebike gets to go anywhere a bike gets to go - including trails on public lands. Private land owners can make their own decisions - but the more blurred the line is in public discussion, the harder it is to hold that line.
And the industry is trying to achieve acceptance by bringing up sympathetic use cases. Current MTB trails don't allow motos - but we're told that ebikes are different, and that they're awesome because they allow trail builders to carry tools to remote places, or photographers to carry equipment for events. Or that they opposing them means taking away a disabled or physically handicapped person's ability to enjoy mountain biking. All of these have merit - but let's not kid ourselves about that being the impetus for marketing these things, and let's not kid ourselves about those uses being the majority of riders.
With technology improving, these things will get faster and more powerful. The decisions about what's appropriate for particular trails will need to leverage definitions and categories established for broader use. In city traffic, those definitions have different implications than they do on trails. And that's the bigger picture I think is important to keep in mind.
I frankly don't think that there's any sort of superiority (moral, aesthetic, or otherwise) attached to Richard's purist vision of working for the altitude you gain, spending the majority of the time climbing, and using that to commune with your fellow riders. That's a preference thing. I get the appeal - but I also get the appeal of skinning up hill before skiing down, without having to consider lift-assisted downhill skiing in some way inferior. I also don't judge motos as for the weak - that's its own sport (and a physically demanding one at that).
But let's not kid ourselves that ebikes won't, in their impact on trails, be very similar to motos as soon as they get a little more powerful. Sure, they'll be quieter. Sure, there's less risk of fire (always a problem in dry places in the summer). But in terms of trail erosion, and what sort of terrain is needed/appropriate, they're different from MTB.
Richard's point is that definitions matter, and that motorizing things tends to lead down a road of more power. I couldn't agree more.
And yeah, we may not be gifted with mountains and endless forests to ride our mountainbikes over here. But I definitely appreciate our bicycle culture. Anyone physically capable to ride a bicycle can safely ride a bike on public roads. I've seen many other similarly developed countries where I wouldn't send a granny nor a four year old out on a bike. Or cyclists are dismissed to the sidewalk where you just can't go proper fast. As it is now, the streets are being made safer and safer, even in the big old cities. I think just as the cities welcome bicycles, they also welcome the e-bikes as another way to get even more motorists out of their cars onto a bicycle. And at least here, this is where the money is. I dropped by my bikeshop today for some small parts and the guy told me that indeed nowadays most of the bikes he sells are electric bikes. People use them for commuting and commuters just want to be quick. For a daily commute it is well worth the money. For mountainbiking or road racing however, the manufacturers won't have to bother. Considering how complex and expensive these bikes are, how quickly they evolve and just simply because we don't have any really long climbs over here, it is not worth bothering with. Commuter bikes is where the money is. The government wants them to reduce the burden on public roads during rush hour (and possibly also to have more equally quick bikes to keep the flow going), the commuters want them to reduce travel time. Heck, I honestly doubt this whole e-mtb thing will even take off here. I read an interview with Cube (German bike brand) in Cranked magazine (cranked.cc) where the designer pointed out that these Bosch motors aren't even really fit for mountainbikes. And Bosch doesn't care much as the mtb market is small compared to the regular bike market. And Cube may not be too bothered either as after all, loads of their e-bikes are indeed designed and sold as commuter bikes anyway. E-mtb is a niche, even to them.
My bike is a steel DMR hardtail loaded with stuff that's say XT level, 130mm forks from MY200
Now back to these e-mountainbikes. I understand there is a major concern that these are going to accelerate trail erosion. As the motor only engages at the lower speeds, this then applies to climbing and riding sluggish terrain. I'd say that erosion on climbs occurs when the rear wheel skids. This happens if the rider is in too light a gear, getting you only a very small wheel rotation per stomp on the pedal. I also expect pushing the bike uphill (walking) causes more erosion than just simply cycling up. But this is all speculation up 'till this point. I wonder if there has been any proper research, seeing that it causes so much concern. So have some bikes in both e-bike variation as well as the regular variation (if possible). Have them ridden by a variety of riders and somehow observe their effect on the trails.
Problem really is that its not like its a cleaner greener way to ride moto. The electricity is mostly coming from the same sources and untill those change to nuclear and we shoot the waste off into space or build thermo waste shelters to convert the radiation to electricity we're not really doing anything.
So electric motorcycles make sense then. But if theres a motor on a bicycle - electric or otherwise - its a MOTORcycle. Thats why we have doctionaries. To all agree on words meanings ad communicate.
"While there are many places in the world where motorized off-road vehicles are legally welcome, most of the world's choice mountain bike destinations are not among them." Wrong. Might be true for the US, but in Europe more and more of the Top Mountainbike Destinations open their parks for Pedelecs. Trails are already open for Pedelecs, since many years. Trail access is no problem in Europe, as Pedelec Bikes below 25 km/h (Motor stops working when you stop to pedal) are considered a Bicycle. It's that easy. You can use Bike Paths, Fire Roads, Trails etc, no problem whatsoever.
"Specialized's top-drawer S-Works Turbo Levo debuted with a 530-watt motor - double the power of its competitors. ". Wrong. It's not limited to 530W. Simple Math: If you calculate the Watts needed for the following situation: a 85 kg Biker (including Backpack) plus a 22,5 kg Pedelec where the Biker provides 250-350W of own power, can pedal up a 15% ascent with an average of 15 km/h. It is about 1100 to 1200W a Brose or Bosch Middlemotor performs here in this situation, and Engineers tell you that, if you ask. Just ask your Physics teacher
I've been riding Alpine Singletrails since '85, and am now 45. I am in my 31th year on the Bike, enjoying every second on a trail. But me and many others here are switching or have switched to eBike - Pedelecs. Really, there's a big big Pedelec Movement in Europe, and it has taken off 3 years ago.
The current All Mountains and Enduro eMTBs are finally great to ride, work decently, we get around 1200 HM vertical out of a 500 Wh Battery and ride that Uphill in 50 Minutes (we ride with a 2nd Battery in the Backpack here in Tyrol were we usually do 2500 to 3000 HM Up in one ascent). We all here don't give a f... to any eBike haters out there. May they snail up that long ascent with 5-7 km/h, done that for 31 years.
Now I can do the same with 15 km/h with a good Pulse and still burn a lot of calories. I can do 3500 HM up, 60km Singletrail and Fireroad, 5500 HM down on Singletrails only, 2 Huts on the way each on 2000 m, 2 cool ascents and two great Downhill Singletrail Rides in4:00 hrs if I need to be back home at the Family on the weekend a bit faster
Heck, I did a eBike Enduro Freeride Transalp this summer, without any lifts or cable cars. At two occasions we did 2 stages in one day from 7:00 to 8:00 pm - Big Mountain, Big Landscape, Epic Trails Up and Down, that was one of the most intense Transalps I ever rode. Uphills and Landscapes are with a Pedelec now very enjoyable, Ascent and Descent are very balanced experiences. No only the descents. Hey, we really don't care anymore about all the haters, they just shall have their peace.
These new eEnduros are so much fun, I'll be riding more Singletrail with these bikes until I am 70 than in the last 31 years. That's what it's all about. At age 45 you start thinking: "Hmm, how many Trails will I ride until I get too old to do so? Hopefully as much as possible". These Bikes double your Trailfun, they double your seasonal ride counter. Up AND down is now fun. It's that easy. You do more trail than ever on these bikes, with much fun, and it's not a permanent Cardiovascular contest, which at age might even be unhealthy.
Last point: I've been riding bike parks as well for many years, and we even built some of the bikeparks here! We've been and built the Scene for many years, and it's so cool to see that we have a rich Bikepark culture here in Europe. Now all the Kids, they just don't care about us old folks discussing eBike yes/no. They just grab one of these bikes and have fun, they can train more efficiently and more steadily. EGO Kit? Why not, I can access the park in the time the lift is closed due to revision.
Richard, what do you think: all the Riders that use Cable Cars and Lifts for Bikepark access, aren't they E-bikers as well? What does the Lift work with for operating? Air and Water? No, it works with Electricity. By the time you use a Lift, you are IMHO an e-Biker too
Finally, what about all those Shuttles with their environmental impact. Here in Europe Shutteling with Pickups is for example not that common like in Canada. Now you can do that with your Pedelec. Leave the truck at home, ride up one time, two times, three times. Save gasoline and save the world the exhaust gases of your Truck. If that is not cool?
However, very sorry about that strange situation you Guys have in the States considering 25 km/h Pedelecs. That's weird.
And by all means, aside from the fact that this is the best (by far) argument I’ve read on this subject, it also brought me memories from the old era of the mountain bike magazines.
Supreme read.
John
And the reason above I'm about to go out on the road, leaving my very bored mountain bikes to sulk in the cellar!
Thanks RC, keep it going....
Other than the $9500 specialized all the rest are not suitable for actual mountain biking and therefore will lead to a very short career as an actual mountain bike. Let the industry sort out their financial priorities and the fact that the added weight is not worth the imbalance on the down trail and not worth the cost when the rest of the components (suspension and wheels etc...) suffer because the cost of the driveline makes the most expensive ebikes unattainable by the non cyclist.
Real Bike shops that sell fat schlubs into ebikes specifically for off-road use should be ashamed of themselves, but to disallow a rider who is medically losing their former ability to ride or one who has the mindset for actual riding but a physical/medical condition that will prohibit them from getting out is not a large enough portion of the market to scream at.
As long ebikes keep being sold with fat slick tires on them they will not show up on the trails for long if at all.
I personally commute on pavement with a Canadian made bionx hybrid which allows me to be home to my family in a third of the time than pedalling and not having to change clothes and all the other positives of the no second car argument holds. I will maintain this battery powered un-gas guzzling bike as our second car for many years but it won't be going on any trail anytime soon.
I believe there is value to it and e-biking is certainly more beneficial than watching tv. Each trail association should start debating and rule it in or out. There is such diversity in terms of history, trail access, trail styles, etc. that a global regulation would inevitably be unfair to some users. Therefore it would be great if we could achieve self-regulation on the matter.
On the other hand, my apprehension is when it comes to climbing a long, hard narrow trail: If somebody is grinding it faster than me, I will step aside and admire him/her, wishing I was too in that kind of shape. But if an e-biker was to suddenly appear out of nowhere and start rubbing up against my rear tire,...I don't think I would display the same courtesy!!!
I am afraid that more damage will come from questionable behaviours, emotional reactions and confrontations between bikers of opposite clans, than from the bike itself. We are already seeing it happening with the Strava phenomenon, when some people become obsessed with their stats and lose all sense of trail ethic.
If the e-bikes are that great, they will gain in popularity and stay. If over time, the problems and frustrations turn out to be greater than the benefits, they will remain marginal and fade away much faster than the scars that we may have inflicted on one another if we turn this debate into some kind of a religious frenzy...
Let's compare this to cheating in a video game. You can cheat offline or online. Why do people cheat in games? Normally in offline games to overcome their lack of ability in some area or to explore around. Either way it gets boring very quickly. People who cheat online do it mostly to piss off other people or just to show off. Once they get caught or they can't enrage other players it doesn't make any sense to keep on going, so they quit.
E-bikes or assisted mountain bikes should be really called "mountain motorbike" and over time people who bought it to overcome their laziness will eventually get bored and quit (and move on to buy a proper motorcycle). People that bought it to cheat or show off (in strava for example) will also be caught and put to shame... and quit. Who do we have left? Riders that NEED that assistance to enjoy their hobby/sport. Self accomplishment is a very important factor in keeping riders riding, and no cheating will give you that.
E-bikes are very useful for city transportation, that will catch on no doubt, but in mountain, road, bmx, or whatever competitive discipline you practice will stay clean of cheating electronic assisted bikes.
That said, I don't really feel that having e-bikes on regular MTB trails is a good idea. Some are already too powerful and fast to be safe and practical. ORV trails seem a much better fit for them. I don't think expecting people to ride e-bikes safely and respectfully is unreasonable, but there will certainly be those who want to go shred trails on their 3,000-watt (or more) monsters. That's a recipe for disaster.
www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/our-trails-arent-built-for-that-ebike-riders-risk-fines-in-canberra-nature-parks-20160718-gq7w79.html
Aboot five fkng years late
An admission that the (big corperate side of our) bike industry is lying to us an has been all along
and you can impose limits on size of bikes, its done with motorbikes here in the uk. you can only ride certain size motors depending on age, the test you did and how long you have been motorbiking. if its a production bike you can put limits and legislation in force to regulate the industry.
Want to double the cut-off speed of your ebike? Here's how to do it legally for less than the cost of a dropper post.
www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/bosch-ebike-tuning-dongle
It is naive to think that ebikes are slow and can be somehow legislated into being slow. Even the european L1e regulations that go into effect January 1st 2017, don't prohibit the sale of fast bikes. In Canada the limit is double that of Europe. It's triple in the united states. Even without all that variation, faster than street-legal ebikes are a reality that isn't going away. As they come down in price, they'll be everywhere and people won't be satisfied with being limited to 25km/h.
Certainly there will always be extreme bikes that are obviously extreme. The difficulty is that 500w and 1000w look identical to 250w. Over time, even higher wattage bikes will look relatively normal as components are miniaturized and better integrated.
This is especially true for those of us who ride in crowded public parks. My local city park has 20+ miles of singletrack but is also packed with dog walkers, trail runners and even parents pushing strollers. Putting aside the discussion of ebikes being fun and good for people with injuries or limitations, they are also going to be extremely problematic. Silent bikes that look mostly like regular bikes are soon going to allow motorcycle performance to anyone with a thousand dollars to spend. Allowing them where mountainbikers currently ride is like allowing motorcycles to share trails with those dog walkers, runners and stroller pushers. The only difference is that the bikes won't make noise like gas powered bikes do.
Perhaps you haven't experienced the drama of conflicts between different trail user groups. Those conflicts, centered around ebikes, are going to define the next decade of mountainbiking. It will come to define the experience of riding in many areas of the world. It will all be centered around what types of bikes are allowed where.
Later this month an electric bike will be competing in the redbull straight rhythm. My prediction is that they'll completely take over pro motocross within 10 years. R&D is being stepped up as this technology has really hit it's stride. Trickle down tech is already happening.
www.redbull.com/us/en/motorsports/offroad/stories/1331821865518/electricity-to-hit-red-bull-straight-rhythm
This isn't obvious to people yet because the technology is new. Each year the bikes will get cheaper, faster, and more refined until they are sleek machines with batteries and motor hidden in the frame.
oh if you want to tell martin ashton hes not allowed to ride a bike any more cos some people think ebikes are shit and should be banned then go ahead. personally i think its great that people with a love of biking can still get out on the trails after life changing accidents.
It is obvious that larger batteries will be hidden in the frame. It's the cleanest design. With that in mind, it will be hard to regulate the speed of ebikes. Faster than road-legal ebikes are a reality that won't be going away. They're getting faster, cheaper and more refined every eyar.
I don't think ebikes "are shit". Only that they will cause friction with other trail users. Recognizing that an ebike problem is coming doesn't mean hating ebikes.
While we obviously disagree, thanks for the interesting discussion. Part of the reason for replying so many times is that I'm fascinated by the topic. I see it as becoming the most important topic for mountain bikers in the next few years.
"Seven in ten IMBA members said "the perceived negative image of mountain biking" is the biggest threat to new trail access."
I extract several arguments from the article against e-bikes. One is that it is considered good to earn your turns. To get up the hill under your own power in order to enjoy the downhills. Sure that would give a sense of accomplishement, but does that mean others would have to, too? It is a bit like religious people going like you have to suffer now so that you can be happy when you're dead instead of the other way around. That is not a choice you're going to make for others. I pose this question after all those PeB articles and it never gets answered. If you think it is so important to climb under your own power before you enjoy the downhills, does that also go for other means of (even more passive) uplift? If not, why? If so, then I'd be very interested to see the response to an article claiming just that, that lift assisted riding would be bad.
Another argument thrives on the emotions due to restricted trail access in the US. And it is always due to "others", right? These others are the less fit and less skilled. Sure they are the ones going to spend 7000 euros on an e-bike? Maybe the insanely rich. More likely those less fit and less skilled are going to spend 700 euros at most on a Deore equipped hardtail, sit down and pedal the easier trails. That's what I expect, but I'd be very interested in some proof supporting the claim that the unfit and unskilled are the ones going to buy these e-bikes. But back to restricted trail access, would it really be due to e-bikes? The process is already in full swing well before those e-bikes got so common so surely it would be more due to regular mountainbikes. If you want to solve it, you need to know the real reasons. Are there any? Are mountainbikers going too fast? The motor isn't working if you're going fast. You'd be equally fast (or even faster) on a regular mountainbike. Is the problem trail erosion on the climbs? If you're skidding on the climbs it is more likely due to improper technique rather than excess power. A too light a gear possibly. You could just as well blame SRAM Eagle or the granny gear (or both for those very creative with light gearing). I'd be interested to see a comparison of trail erosion on the climbs between pushing (walking) the bike uphill vs riding uphill (possibly assisted). I wouldn't be surprised if pushing actually causes more erosion. Is the reason for restricted trail access just vague? Then you can't respond to that. You can't solve that by restricting all others that aren't you. I once started mountain unicycling (MUni) among others because I thought I could then ride the technical walking trails (which were not allowed for cyclists). By law a bicycle has at least two wheels. All unpowered vehicles that don't fall in the bicycle category by default are considered pedestrians. Skateboards, pogostick, unicycle as well. I had loads of fun. Trail erosion is minimal as it is near impossible to skid (and don't crash) and speed is similar to someone running. I always got off when I approached hikers or cattle, greeted friendly. Didn't have trouble with anyone. Some told me it wasn't allowed to ride bicycles there but when I explained I was officially a pedestrian it was fine. I also greeted the rangers, all fine. Until one day a ranger stopped me and dismissed me from the trails. He admitted that I was indeed not causing erosion, not disturbing anyone and there was indeed no explicit prohibition against unicyclists. He simply said they can't make signs for everything they want to forbid but we should always do as told by the rangers. And that last bit is technically true. So sadly that's the last time I rode there. Yes that sucks. I could go silly and (for lack of anything remotely similar) people shouldn't be allowed to run there. Even if I'd achieve that, it doesn't get me access on the unicycle. Same with the e-bikes. If there is no sensible reasoning behind the prohibition of mountainbikes on these trails, it doesn't make sense to prohibe e-bikes. It doesn't suddenly get you trail access.
To be honest I don't know anyone here who rides an e-bike on mountainbike trails. Loads of people use them for commuting to and from work. Not necessarily old people either. My girlfriend has one. She could drive to work in 15 minutes by car. Because the tunnel under the canal isn't accessible by bicycle, riding her bike to work on her regular bike (with all her stuff) takes her 75 minutes. She's done that several times but spending two extra hours commuting is a lot (150 minutes vs 30 minutes). She now has a (high speed) e-bike. It now takes her about 45 minutes to ride to work, so 90 minutes in total. Still one hour more than it would take her by car, but also one hour quicker than by regular bike. You're going to call her unfit and lazy? Watch your mouth, she's got a black belt karate!
So there can be no arms race of motor power in e-mountian bikes, as long as there are sensible laws like this. Of course there can be people who cheat but banning e-bikes from trails won't stop them. Now you can argue quite a bit whether such limited e-bikes should be allowed on trails or not but saying that if you allow e-bikes the motors will only get bigger is fairly short-sighted.
They play with the EU definition of e-bikes with requires max "250w continuous power"
To have higher torque you need a more powerfull motor (torque comes from amps, power from torque * revs), so they limit output power to avoid crossing 250w limit, but use a 530w motor to have twice the torque output at low revs.
And regarding private use, beware law is some country, in France if your e-bike doesn't strictly follow EU regulation, it's considered as a motorbike.
That's trigger automatically insurance requirement, even for private land use, there is numerous cases of insurance litigation around this. Most are ride-on lawn mower litigation in fact, but apply to everything that has a motor and transport a human being.
I dig the cover page parody from your old job.
So what if lazy people ride em. CLIMBING SUCKS FOR MOST RIDERS ANYWAY. This is PB, mostly DHers , so why the uproar ? I would rather shuttle and bomb runs all day than spend all day climbing and only get a couple runs down. how does that make me lazy? Having fun all day riding in my 40s beats bragging about your spandex 3hr climb and 5 minute down run. So your knees are bad or you have some other dissability and you cant pedal but used to love bikes? Go get on an ebike and ride it like you stole it. And have a blast while your at it, if thats what it takes to get you back out on the trails. And also while yor at it, tell the bikers you pass that give you shitty looks....Tell em 26" wheels sucked and arent comming back!!
They already have plenty of power ( too much at full power) and there are ALREADY legal limits on speed. So to suggest that the manufacturers will engage in a speed war is ridiculous.
It's way more likely that they will engage in a RANGE war as that is the limiting factor for e-bikes. That will only happen with more efficient motors and batteries and lighter bikes.
Growing up I was a competitive water-skier. Then wake boarding came around. There were similar arguments....
It's easy to get up on a wakeboard so therefore people will get hurt easier.
The large wakes of wakeboard boats will destroy lake shoreline and therefore get all waterspouts banned ( some lakes did try to ban wakeboarding).
Wakeboarder are reckless yahoos etc
The waterskiing world turned it's back on wakeboarding and the wakeboarders forged their own path. Guess what happened? It caught on and waterskiing is all but dead on a competitive level while wakeboarding is getting stronger by the year.
Adapt or die folks...
Brilliant analogy and spot on argumets!
Yeah f*ck that, i'll chat and socialize when i'm back at the top after i've motored my way back up and preparing to go back down for the 20th time rather than trying to talk whilst dying on my 3rd walk back up.
Aston Hill with a small motor on my bike, yes please.
dirtmountainbike.com