Forbidden Launches New Downhill Team with Connor Fearon

 Connor think of a worse pun in recent times.

 @BenPea: you've gotta be fearon for the neg props there

 @mi-bike: indeed. positive props on that comment should be forbidden.

 New dh bike should be named Fearnought

 @wheelsmith: Sick team - so great to hear Magnus is planning on racing in 2022.

 @BenPea: He's definitely going to get Ziggy with it.

 I cannot think of a better team even if I had Druid up myself!

 Do not deviate

 "In the Darkness Dwells the Dreadnaught":
i.ebayimg.com/images/g/yd0AAOSwSXVdG9S1/s-l1600.jpg

Easily one of my favorite comic runs as a youth

 I heard Connor hates the desert. Good thing Forbidden isn't based in Nevada...there'd be Fearon loathing in Las Vegas.

 @seandeere:

 Could not agree more. While downhill bikes may not sell like trail bikes, downhill is the formula 1 of mountain biking (in my opinion). It is by far the best spectacle in the sport, I also hope more companies take this stance on going downhill fast

 @Motoracer31: the Dreadnought is a weapon… imagine what it could do with 200mm of bounce

 @jaame: Ahhh i bet! I want one so damn bad. I would sell my Supreme DH 29 and a kidney to have whatever DH bike they come up with

 I find this interesting. You would base your purchase on whether or not a bike was raced in a World Cup? (I'm not attacking you here, I'm genuinely intrigued)
I just want to know if the bike in the iteration I would buy performs well, is durable, and fits me and my riding style. Very little of that would be relevant on a DH race team, which has resources I don't. Am I off here?

 @rrolly: couldn’t agree with you more. I think the EWS fills that role for me. It’s proving which bikes can win under multiple riders and which can’t even with some prime athletes on board.

 @rrolly: i just appreciate their desire to enter the pinnacle of the mtb gravity sport by producing a DH bike and team. Their DH bike may not generate major revenue so their commitment to racing and the sport is what i think is cool. Will that really drive me to buy one? in actuality prolly not, but major props and respect to em

 @Motoracer31: why? It’s got the same suspension as the current Supreme: a high-pivot single pivot. And the next Supreme is a virtual design - by rhe looks of it on the multiple videos from the 2021 championship, the new frame performs flawlessly!

 @rrolly: Proves that they are willing to invest in developing a bike that performs at the absolutely highest level. Both in performance and durability. I'm pretty sure that brands that do it, also learn some valuable lessons also for their trail bikes in the process. This is a win in my books. And there's no denying a world cup team has a high marketing value across the world.

 @hirvi: They do learn valuable lessons for their trail bikes, exactly. Owen Pemberton was an Engineer with Norco and developed the Aurum HP. When starting his own company he took what he learned and created the Druid, then the Dreadnought.

 @rrolly: I dont think you are off, I think everything you said except your specific riding style and potentially your fit is relevant to every world cup team. A durable, well performing bike that you witness being ridden at the top level will always be a turn on over that one big company that bagged their WC team cause "Nobody buys DH bikes" like rocky mountain. So i think the bike being raced is quite cool and interesting and a good base before looking at geo numbers

 @hirvi: It doesn't prove that their bikes will perform the best in performance in what the consumer rides, unless they race DH with the same bike. And it does nothing to prove durability. Their DH bikes need to last at least a series of runs (practice and race sessions in a given weekend) and at most a season. The consumer doesn't have access to DH team frame failure rates.

 @rrolly: World Cup matters massively. The product has been proven at the highest level. You might not be in the market for a session or a V10 but you know if you buy a slash or 5010 your buying a platform that’s capable of winning world cups. It’s more important than anything. Why do you think you see so many commencals dunces they’ve been winning races?

 @motoracer31 I get you, for many riders a bike represents more than the sum of it's geometry chart and build kit. It's ok to think with your heart sometimes!

 @rrolly: I definitely buy based on a bike's ability to perform at the top level. It's why I now have a Supreme 29, which replaced a Trek Session. You can buy what racers ride, so why not buy what can hold its own at the top level?

 @rrolly:

Yep! Bikes that have been raced at the highest levels are a great starting point in figuring out what you want to demo ride and purchase. Especially with smaller brands that you might not be able to demo ride locally.

 @pisgahgnar: With a little help from Alistair Beckett

 @rrolly: We might not know their failure rates, but they will. If their bike breaks, they learn how, when and where. And learn what needs to change in the next iteration. Valuable lessons, like i said before.

 In my opinion, one of the biggest test of a overall bike design and durability is if it is fast enough and can stand up to a world cup race season. It may not be the only way to evaluate a bike, but is certainly an easy way to tell if a bike company is interested in fast reliable bikes. Also DH is my favorite sport, it needs our support as do the companies that participate.

 @nvmoondog: I hear what you're saying, but you still will never hear about any failure rates from a manufacturer of a DH team. You also don't know the customization that the riders' bikes have gone through either.

@hirvi You're correct, companies will hopefully learn how to engineer their frames better when failures occur. But that only helps me, the purchaser, if I were to buy their DH model AFTER they address those issues.

 @rrolly: I think your second answer there answered why most of us are more intrigued by a bike that has been raced on the world cup stage

But now im curious where you get your information and how you pick a bike, i know you mentioned the fit and riding style and thats valid for everyone here and we all just look at geo charts. But if you go to buy a DH bike where do you get your information for durability and performance?

 @Motoracer31: Good question. First, I don't buy a DH bike. The economics don't make sense for me. I would have to ride the park a lot to justify a $4K purchase (I don't usually shuttle). It makes far more sense for me to rent. Even at $100-ish per ride, it's far less expensive when factoring in maintenance, depreciation, etc. I would venture to guess that most readers on this site would be in a similar position.

I choose a bike by first matching the bike with my riding style. Then I check reviews (as many as possible), and then comment sections for real world users. At that point I narrow down my selection and go demo.

Currently, I'm on a 2019 Norco Sight. If I were to go out and buy a bike today I would demo the new Sight, the Rocky Instinct, or the Transition Sentinel.

 @rrolly: ah, well this makes far more sense now.

 @rrolly: *Hit submit to early*

I think we are on the exact same page except step 1.

Sounds like a lot of us watch world cup DH races and go "holy shit that bike looks like its working SO good" and thats first step into reading a bunch of reviews, watching slow and fast mo videos of guys plowing rocks and seeing what bikes look good and planted vs twitchy and sketchy, savings pennys, checking geo charts, and then hopefully getting to race it at my local races. So, same same, but different haha

 @rrolly: seems like there’s a point being missed here.

Like Motoracer31 said in original comment, downhill is like the F1 of MTB. Or maybe more like world rally champs, but whatever. It’s a proving ground that pushes the technology and tests the limits of what bikes and riders can do. Nobody is looking at F1 thinking “that’s the car I want to buy next“. Nevertheless, it doesn’t seem to have done Ferrari or Mercedes or Red Bull any harm financially. It’s about generating excitement in the brand and, collectively, the sport in general. And some of us do buy downhill bikes, so there’s that.

 @doe222: I don't think Ali B did any actual CAD design on the Druid - I thought he was more product and supply chain guy? He left to run his gravel bike brand long before the Dreadnought, so definitely didn't have a hand in that one...

 @Jamminator: you are trippin. It’s not about adopting trends, it’s about going down a motntain as fast as you can. Carbon doesn’t mean better as most companies have proved with there DH bikes over years of back and forth, and half the guys are going back to coil shocks with sneaky coil forks on some! Tubeless is here to stay tho, got me there. I think DH is purely about the speed like f1, Not about the weight and legs.

 @Motoracer31: If it was about as fast as you can, DH wouldn't have stayed on 26" for years instead of going big wheels. DH racers were the ones following and not leading, scared to try new things.

Let's face it, XC was having a technological renaissance 20 years ago while DH was still muddling in building tanks, as they've always lacked behind their lyrcra peers. History is on my side of the argument, and that is a factual inconvenient truth.

 @Jamminator: lol claiming to be on the right side of history doesn't make it true. 29er wheels weren't strong enough for DH use for a long time, and the advantage in DH was much less obvious. Who drove modern xc geometry with slacker head angles, wider bars, shorter stems? DH. 1x drivetrains? DH. Disc brakes? DH. Using suspension? DH. It's only in the last ten years that xc has actually become mountain biking, rather than just the backstop for roadies that couldn't make it.

 @Jamminator: xc only started using disk brakes until about about ten years ago and have only just started using dropper posts and was still racing hardtails when downhill was developing the technology xc now uses. Get out of here with your trolling

 @thenotoriousmic: @thenotoriousmic: @L0rdTom: maybe, just maybe, cycling is a sport that shares innovation across the entire range of disciplines with bikes that cross between the different categories and create a fluid spectrum of progress and innovation leading to no one discipline being the true innovator over the others.

 @thenotoriousmic:

The 2003 Specialized Epic ( XC race bike) had disc brakes… that’s almost twenty years of disc brakes, not ten.

 @Saidrick: ether way rim brakes were the norm in xc years after the rest of mountain biking had moved to disks for weight reasons. XC is alway the last to adopt to new technology. Always ten years behind. They’re still behind now, they’re running droppers but only with 80-100mm of drop. Like what’s the point in that? You’ve gone to the trouble of fitting a dropper why fit one that doesn’t really help you? Probably something to do with the standard of riding being so poor that probably wouldn’t even know what to do with the extra breathing space.

 @thenotoriousmic: my mate has a 170mm dropper which he literally did not drop even one time the first time we went to BPW. He's an old school xc guy at heart and only recently got a dropper. He says he can't control the bike when the seat isn't there. Second visit I purauaded him to try dropping it halfway for a couple of runs but he wasn't keen!

 @thenotoriousmic:

I am so confused, didn’t XC adopt carbon frames first, back in the 90’s?

Also XC was first to adopt the big, 29”, wheels?


Also, go watch videos of Nino riding with downhill/ enduro guys. His standard of riding is top notch, on and off the XC course.

 @Saidrick: I've seen him riding the blue line at a bike park with a couple of huge (2-3m) gaps. His skills are decent.

 @Saidrick: No that was the roadies and wheelsize isn’t new tech just the same stuff we’ve alway run but with a slightly larger diameter.
I saw him getting farmed by a jump a group of teenagers built at the Olympics pretty much proves my point when he’s the guy everyone uses as an example of someone who races XC that isn’t completely useless behind a set of bars. Best of a bad bunch.

@jaame: exactly mate absolutely clueless. XC has contributed nothing to mtb the just adopt from other disciplines decades later.

 They'd get sued by Apple.

 @toast2266: and specialized.

 ..

 @toast2266: xc only started using disk brakes until about about ten years ago and have only just started using dropper posts and was still racing hardtails when downhill was developing the technology xc now uses. Get out of here with your trolling.

 @thenotoriousmic: you lost me there.

 @toast2266: replied to the wrong message haha ^. Time to get the screen fixed on my phone.

 Lit!

 Stoked to see that, he definitely earned it after last season

 to be fair, I can't buy a Mercedes F1 vehicle. In some ways, I see that as the direction that dh is going. Its not a big enough market for dh bikes to have that many brands in the game. I hope the niche never goes away; I own a dh bike and there is nothing like it, but I can really ride most the same stuff on my enduro bike.

 @adrennan: well Giant basically had one of the cheapest DH bikes for a long time. the "glory 2" sold like hotcakes and you'll find them everywhere on the BuySell. similar story with Kona who had the Operator but also had the 'Entourage' which was basically a free ride/bike park bike a bit like the norco shore, meant to be run either 180mm or with a DH fork. also a ton of those on the BuySell. they were pretty affordable compared to Spesh/Trek/etc.

I think with the prevalence of bike parks, there's never been a better time to actually own a DH instead of just rent for a day. but it's always gonna come down to a company's priorities. Kona still has a DJ bike, but their enduro rigs are pretty overpriced. You have to pay 5k+ for a 170mm type rig. No 180 stuff. Def a far cry from the STINKY/STAB days.

Similar thing with Giant. Actually really rad DJ options on the cheap, enduro starts at 3500. But no DH or 180mm rigs. But way better values than Kona.

 @adrennan: mercedes-amg one is pretty close

 has to be the end of Kona's DH program - they didn't even attend all the DH WCs last year - I wonder if they'll support an EWS program?

 @shredddr: I hope they aren't at the tail end of their 'core' phase and moving into just sales. Do they have XC riders? Doesn't seem like they have anything for freeriders or slopestyle so I dunno what they have left as far as racing/events go :/

 @briceps: I kept assuming Miranda Miller was on her way to Rocky Mountain given all the filming with that crew.

 @adrennan: She dates Remi and is good friends with them all. Not necessarily going anywhere else.

 @briceps: Kona’s carbon production has increased immensely, especially in the full suspension market, just look at the Process 134, X, and Hei Hei. The DH program is in hibernation (at least as far as the Operator is concerned) but don’t rule out how capable the Process X is. It offers 158-164mm of travel and is longer, equally slack, and lighter than most DH bikes on the market. Yes it’s not a “true” downhill or freeride bike, but look at the suspension kinematics and what’s already being done at world cups, Hardline, and Rampage on bikes like the SB165, GT Force, and Norco Range. Perhaps I have a Kona bias as a dealer, but right now the stuff they are making really is a choose your own adventure type of affair. We got people with anglesets in Hei Hei’s nuking anything a Hightower could take, guys and gals running 134’s coil at both ends or as bikepacking rigs, Sutra’s with flat bars on singletrack, ESD’s at Rampage site and Process X’s built at 30 pounds with old 153 parts and 33 pounds with dual crown forks. Their lineup is full of bikes you can actually ride on your trails, and actually ride on any trails you’re taking a trip to plus you can rest assured they aren’t trying to sue private frame builders, bike parks, or your grandma like certain brands that start with S. More than anything else, they’re gravitating towards grassroots sponsorship and events because as glamorous as world cup and EWS looks on Instagram, they understand that real people in your community doing good things for cycling are equally if not more important to support. That said, stoked to see Connor on a progressive program, guy really is an excellent ambassador for the sport.

 Giant bikes hinted that a new Glory is coming "sooner than later," in the comment section of the most recent Reece Wallace videos.

I really think they should go mullet with the Reign and add some more travel in the back.

For as expensive as any new DH bike is gonna be these days, given just the cost of good suspension, they're really gonna need something special to compete with Commencal, Spesh, and SC.. and Canyon/ YT really stole their thunder in the price-point market lately.

 @nation: quite the company pitch. So they are giving out bikes to local kids and their dads. . . . . nice!

 @lepigpen: there is Kerry Werner. He's more of a CX guy but he's super fast on anything with 2 wheels and enters the occasional XC race.

 Kona had a young talent of racers as of now and nobody recognize them because they was just starting in EWS and World cup series

 @jaycubzz: it’s really not

 @Glory831Guy: I 100% agree on the reign, I was a diehard reign customer.last 3 bikes were reigns with 2 trances before that,the 29er reign promted me to look elsewhere and I was lucky enough to get a 29 giga, I would go back to giant if they can get the reign back to where it was.

 @adrennan: I don't think the DH/F1 comparison works in this case, in the context of it being a valid consumer product. The average car enthusiast has no real opportunities to drive an F1 car, while the average mtbiker has relatively easy access to WC DH tracks.

Another thing: just for fun, let's assume your local track day organisers let you show up with your F1 car. While a DH bike makes riding a DH track safer and easier, the F1 car will make your (and everyone else's around you) track day experience terrifying and exponentially more dangerous than a modded Miata. So not really the same thing.

I agree that the market must be pretty small though. Probably as you say, too small to have every other brand offer a DH rig. Especially nowadays when you can put a dual crown on something like a Norco Range and be this close to a DH bike without having to own multiple bikes for lift vs pedal days. I mean, a Yeti SB165 was ridden at Rampage, so...

 @bananowy: I completely agree with your first bit there. And, honestly, its part of what makes mountain biking so rad to me. Consumers can fairly easily buy the top-end stuff. People always complain about how expensive mountain bikes are but compare the level of equipment we get for the money to what you would need to pay for similarly high-end equipment in the motorsports world.

 @adrennan: compare the level of equipment we get for the money to what you would need to pay for similarly high-end equipment in the motorsports world.

Actually... Not too much more for absolute top of line dirt bikes ready to race. I think that's a better comparison than a car.

eurosportasheville.com/moto/SGG0JNBjrq1NSca9gByx

 @pisgahgnar: I have always heard figures for the top-end motocross/supercross bikes in excess of 50k with works suspension, and all the goodies. That isn't even tapping in to mxgp where they are really allowed to go nuts.

 @adrennan: That's true, but then you also have to consider how we don't have Jordie at our trailhead and don't get the same custom suspension tunes that WC racers get. Off the shelf top of the line products are not too drastically different. It's a bit of a hard comparison though. Dirtbikes of course have an engine which is expensive and brings it's own customization and costs. We of course are our own engines!

 @johannensc: well if you want to be that way. Yes, you can buy a mercedes F1 car. Just look for the auctions that happen periodically. All you need is a few million bucks, and you're good to go.

 @nation: wow quite the sales pitch.

You really got some nerve to say Something like a process x could be A stand in for a dh rig.

I actually like a lot about the x and thought of getting one. But ive read and seen too many stories of unduely cracked konas, Without being replacedread thier crap warranty policy

 I was wondering this too. These are expensive frames, but I still don't understand how the low volume / high margin model can support any extra costs beyond keeping the lights on.

 I’d guess the other team sponsors play quite a big part money wise. Especially given that crankbrothers is a title sponsor

 I have no insider insight, but we saw on PB last year how little the WC racers can get paid, so I suspect running this level of team is cheaper than we might assume.
Say it cost $300,000 - and even if Forbidden are putting up $200 of that (including media production costs), it might not be a bad investment.
Can anyone critique my made-up costs?

 @chakaping: yeah I would have thought a proper program would cost 300-500k. So you’re not far from it. You would expect the other sponsors to be contributing significantly to that cost.

 I have no idea about Forbidden's capital structure, but in the likely possibility that they're backed by some form or private equity or VC, it's perfectly normal for them at this stage to be running teams (or even manufacturing orders) without the cashflows to support that yet.

Funding a racing team might just be something you include in your business plan when you pith the enterprise to investors, who might agree with it in the expectation of it to generate future cashflows

 @Arierep: this makes sense. I always assume that every small company is bootstrapping, but you’re exactly right—it was probably built into an early pitch for capital.

@chakaping, @Afterschoolsports, and @JamesKROZ, my thought, and this is pure speculation, was that even if the other team sponsors are kicking in real money, for Forbidden to be doing the press release suggests they are shouldering the lion's share of the cost. I could be wrong, but if I were Crank Brothers and contributing, say, 50% of the cost, I would want the press release to be more like "Crank Brothers' new DH team is pleased to announce Forbidden Bike Co. as the frame sponsor." I suspect the focus on Forbidden means it's their team, and largely their financial burden. From what I have seen with sponsorship (not bike related), even small contributions are expected to garner fairly large returns in recognition. Sponsorship is marketing, and the sponsors need to weigh the value of supporting a team against other forms of more traditional marketing.

 @toooldtodieyoung: I think your estimation is pretty bang on. I believe the split to be about 60-70%

 Everyone wants that new Antidote Darkmatter to be raced at WCs, but everyone else is saying its not affordable for a small brand. There has to be more to the story here.

 @chakaping: listen to mullaly's recent downtime podcast for a bit of relevant insight. I think he tossed out a number of $160k to run the season. of course, that's a 1 racer team (accompanied by a mech, media guy & physio). with a handful of associate sponsors helping out, i can kinda / sorta see a small co like forbidden making this work. wishing them the best of luck, regardless!

random - saw an IG post of (what appeared to be) a full shipping container of forbidden frames getting offloaded at their HQ; if that's any indication, they appear to be moving some decent volume of units & (perhaps) have deeper pockets than one would assume for a small startup.

 @xy9ine: So I was pretty damn close for a two-person team. Maybe I'm in the wrong job?

 I actually went back and read the article, dope that they're designing a DH bike.

 @Fullsend2-13: proud of you!

 The druid is 130mm

 @ybsurf: or 142

 @ericolsen: thank you thank you. Hahaha

 I'd like to see Forbidden Mage to continue with the witchcraft theme.

 @deiru: Dreadnought was already off that path, though!

 I offer for your consideration the nerd bike range:

403: Forbidden.

Nerds Know

 @suspended-flesh: I absolutely love it.

 Forbidden… Dance!

 Forbidden Love. seems obvious

 154mm is close enough to 160mm and the bike punches way above its travel

 Never once riding my Dreadnought with a coil shock have I ever thought "hmm, needs more rear travel." I am not a elite downhill racer tho.

 @chwk: Yeah, I hear you... Definitely doesn't need it. I can't help but think 170 in the back would be damn fun though

 Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Dreadnaught uses a trunion mount, which tops out at a 65mm stroke, which it already uses. The only way to increase travel is to increase the leverage ratio, which is going to be hard with the constrained space on that frame.

 Morgane Charre

 @JamesKROZ: o yeah. Good memory

 Ask Martin Maes about DH world champs on an enduro bike in 2021, although Sam Hill seemed to do ok in Cairns on a Mega

 @SonofBovril: yeah because Cairns is pretty mallow DH track

 Farside Components has been posting about working with Forbidden, so I bet that's who is providing the DHnought links

 @AndrewHornor: True. They made a new Ziggy link for them.

 I agree 100%. Although it will likely have mixed wheels. I’m experimenting with running mixed wheel bike with two 27.5 wheels later this month. Bikes are slack enough that the roughly 10-12mm you lose won’t turn it into a twitchy mess.

 On its way

 You need to try out a Dreadnought. It’s basically a dh bike that pedals great

 @barbarosza: I own one. Great bike but nothing of the sort.

 @barbarosza: Basically a downhill bike... but not a downhill bike. I don't care what anybody says, there is no replacement for a proper DH bike. Any bike that is not a DH bike that is "basically a dh bike", is still not a DH bike, because it was not designed with the sole intention of going downhill.

 @jomacba: Nor is there such thing as "basically a dh bike that pedals great". There is "basically a dh bike that pedals like shit, but ok compared to other bikes that pedal like shit".

 @warmerdamj: I couldn't agree more. If I wanted to pedal though, I wouldn't buy a DH bike though.

 @jomacba: Im actually taking a shot at all the reviews on this site for 170mm enduro bikes that weight 38lbs but are reviewed as "bikes that pedal great".