First Ride: RockShox's Updated DebonAir Air Spring - Pond Beaver 2020
The details of RockShox's 2021 Lyrik, Yari, Pike, and Revelation were announced today, and while the chassis and dampers are unchanged, all of the forks received a subtle but significant update: a new DebonAir air spring.
An updated air spring may not cause the same level of drooling as a completely new fork, especially one with oversized stanchions, but the fact that the new air spring makes a noticeable difference in performance, and can be retrofitted to previous RockShox forks, makes it worthy of closer look.
An updated air spring may not cause the same level of drooling as a completely new fork, especially one with oversized stanchions, but the fact that the new air spring makes a noticeable difference in performance, and can be retrofitted to previous RockShox forks, makes it worthy of closer look.
DebonAir Air Spring Details
• Compatible with Lyrik, Yari, Pike, and Revelation forks
• Updated seal head and foot nut
• Improves ride height and initial support
• MSRP: $42 USD / $25 USD for seal head & nut
• sram.com/rockshox
• Compatible with Lyrik, Yari, Pike, and Revelation forks
• Updated seal head and foot nut
• Improves ride height and initial support
• MSRP: $42 USD / $25 USD for seal head & nut
• sram.com/rockshox
When the old and new air springs are placed side by side the differences are clear. The new version has a taller seal head, as well as a longer foot nut. Those changes were made to move the spring higher in the stanchion; it now sits on the dimple that allows air to move from the positive to the negative air chamber. That 10mm change in height makes the fork sit higher in its travel then before, and it no longer feels like it wants to suck down into the first 5-10 millimeters of travel.
The complete air spring assembly can be purchased for $42, or riders with model year 2020 forks can purchase just the seal head and foot nut for $25. It's a pretty simple procedure to pull out the old air spring and install the new one, and realistically, now is probably the perfect time to perform a lower leg service. Budget around 30 minutes for the entire procedure, more if you're still trying to figure out the whole "lefty loosey, righty tighty" thing.
The air spring is available as a complete unit, or the seal head and foot nut nut can be purchased separately.
That's the previous generation air spring on the left, and the new on on the right.
There's more room on the underside of the new seal head in order to maintain the same amount of ramp up at the end of the stroke as before.
Ride Impressions
In order to see how much of a difference the new air spring makes I headed out for some back to back testing. I had two Lyrik Ultimate forks, both with 160mm of travel, and both with similar amounts of ride time on them before the back-to-back comparison began. Air pressures in both were set exactly the same, as were the rebound and compression settings.
On the trail, the increased ride height was much more noticeable than I'd anticipated. Yes, part of that ride height change is due to the diminished positive air chamber volume, which means that running the same air pressure as before will result in slightly less sag, but there's more to it than that.
With the new air spring, the fork no longer sinks into its travel when there isn’t any weight on it. It stays closer to the proper amount of sag on smoother sections of trail, which means there was more travel available when an obstacle was encountered. The fork was still nice and supple off the top, and its behavior at the end of the stroke was the same – the fun-o-meter was in the same location after bigger hits on both forks. The extra support is especially beneficial in steeper terrain, where the last thing you want is fork that's riding too low in its travel and steepening the bike's head angle.
Overall, I'd say that making the switch to the new air spring is a highly recommended upgrade. There aren't too many things you can do to your fork for less than $50 that will result in such a noticeable, and beneficial change.
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It also bugs me how Fox is doing E-Bike specific forks when Rockshox is just like yep, all Yaris, Lyriks, and Boxxers are "E-Bike rated" (whatever that means) Simplicity for the win!
The 2020 design reduces the negative spring pressure, which would result in less help from the negative spring to get the fork moving into its travel off the top, but the fact that it tops out higher means that the initial stroke is at a lower-pressure point in the positive spring's travel. So the sensitivity off the top may remain similar.
I guess this is a tricky thing to get right, and I understand what Rockshox was probably thinking with the 2019/2020 air spring design. I will say that the 2019/2020 air spring was a pretty big upgrade over the one before it.
The real fix to the suck down problem would be bring back the old dual air springs, but unfortunately most people didn't understand how to set those up properly.
maybe they should've just increased stroke length to compensate and kept the sensitivity so its sucks down to 160mm (for example), but that wouldn't have been backwards compatible.
And does off-the-top really matter in most riding? You'll be around sag or past it most of the time. It usually takes (at least front wheel) air-time to let the fork fully extend, and that point does it matter if if takes a fraction of a pound more force to initiate the movement? Probably not, the rest of the landing is waiting for you. Does it matter if you also lost 10mm of travel to get it? Most likely yes!
Now the damper upgrade that is also available is a slightly different story, because Charger 2 works as advertised, and 2.1 is just a refinement/improvement/upgrade, not a fix for something that was broken from the start.
But on those new forks debonair the red cap seals shaft, you need to retrograde to the previous and first shaft, the one with the black end seal cap. Apparently... tbc
The Luftkappe A2 is for the debonair spring pike, I hope so anyways because I just bought one.
Luftkappe Compatible with all debonair shafts 11.4018.026.00x (x=1,4,etc)
I got a shaft 00.4019.932.002 in my Lyrik apparently I can’t fit a luftkappe piston. I would have to use the older shafts 11.4018.026.004
Can someone confirm, please.
I have a 2018 model year boost pike, I think it’s the first version of debonair not the red cap.
For 2019+ Lyrik/Yari of ANY wheel size, use Luftkappe A1 variant with the following:
11.4018.026.001 - Air Shaft Solo Air - Lyrik/Yari(150mm)
11.4018.026.004 - Air Shaft Solo Air - Lyrik/Yari (160mm)
11.4018.026.002 - Air Shaft Solo Air - Lyrik/Yari (170mm)
11.4018.026.020 - Air Shaft Solo Air - Lyrik B1/Yari (180mm)
It seems there's now a version for 2019+ if mfoga is right...
First paraphrasing the industry press release "That 10mm change in height makes the fork sit higher in its travel then before, and it no longer feels like it wants to suck down into the first 5-10 millimeters of travel."
and than repeating in a obvious further paraphrase of the press release "the fork no longer felt like it was sitting partway into its travel before any bumps were encountered. Instead, it was at full extension on smoother sections of trail; that means there was actually 160mm of travel available, instead of the 155 or 150mm that were available before."
You can look at every single "test" in the last year and you will never find Mike Kazimer complaining because his fork was "sucked down" and did not have full travel.
Commercials!
m.pinkbike.com/news/review-fox-36-grip2-vs-rockshox-lyrik-rc2-fork.html
On a serious note, do you think this would help lighter riders who run lower pressure? My wife is a flyweight at her pike will often suck down due to the really low pressure she needs to get even close to 20% sag.
@Apfelsauce:
Keep the commercials coming. This is rather shameless: an upgrade a year!
PS: Mikes’ the Technical Editor at the world’s largest MTB site and has been for a while. If he didn’t do his job right, he either wouldn’t be here or Pinkbike wouldn’t be where its at. Does it really seem like they’re a phony plug?
If I run a higher pressure and pull spacer(s) out while running the old spring, wouldn't I keep great sensitivity off the top, have plenty of mid stroke support and no harsh ramp at the end?
Not sure I see a benefit to the new spring, for me.
But there is good news on the way on this front
And look across the pond: Fox just released a whole line of forks with air bleeders! They do not seem to be capable to build a fork that does not suck in air and ruin your set up but this was praised as a great thing in this same pages!
What I find mesmerizing is that people read the absurdities reported in these thinly disguised commercials and believe them. And many get upset if you point out that the fork that last year was judged fantastic now somehow is missing one centimeter of travel and needs an upgrade.
It makes you realize how well consumerism works: people are literally craving self gratification by purchase and the industry takes good advantage of it.
Sure. However, SRAM from a marketing standpoint needed to bring more to the table and not just a shaft extender. Plus, they wouldn't be able to charge $25/$42 for that part alone.
"But there is good news on the way on this front Smile"
I haven't purchased an item from since my Corset back in the day. What do you have cooking up? If you need to keep it quiet for now, please send me a direct message. I'm definitely open to giving you folks some of my money again.
One thing I'm confused about - the shaft was made longer, which advances the piston head upward, but the sealhead was also made thicker by the same amount. Wouldn't this new system have the same negative spring volume, just shifted upward in the fork?
Realistically though if you rely on pneumatic topout (like the Luftkappe does, and to a lesser extent as the previous Debonair shafts did, depending on pressure) the topout point is quite vague. This is because the pressure in the negative chamber can vary a bit due to the dynamic effects on pressure as the piston passes the transfer port, and the low net force near topout means it doesn't have much preload force to overcome friction or the weight of the bike itself. While this is great for sensitivity, it's not so good for people who look at their fork and think "oh my 150mm fork is only 140mm", even though in reality the range of motion still is actually 150mm. The major brands do have to cater to a lot of customer concerns like that - same reason Dual Air disappeared despite being a really good, tunable system. Rockshox are pretty good at recognising customer complaints and finding ways to address them, even if they don't necessarily agree with my opinions on the best way to make a fork perform.
It'd be pretty funny if people started complaining that their motorbikes didn't have the stated amount of travel because of how far the bike sags under its own weight and that led to motorbike manufacturers cranking the preload like crazy so that the bike didn't sag at all until the rider got on it. Nonzero weight should mean nonzero sag.
@VorsprungSuspension:
"...meaning stiffer initial spring rate, less sag, poorer small bump compliance at the top of the travel..."
I get that part of your explanation, which explains how this upgrade helps keep the fork up. But I also read that the mechanism just got shifted up, so ride height went higher, but fork performance isn't affected. That second one is what I'm hoping for, because my Pike is a little too stiff for me if I were to maintain a sag between 25% and 30%. I like to have the fork ride high to maintain as much of the bike's intended geo as possible. I think that's almost everyone's problem with most forks.
These are not absurd. To a top athlete or top paying consumer, a small upgrade can have a big impact. This fork rides better than last years and that one better than the one before that. Suck it up if you don't care, but reconsider saying "belive them" as if it's fake.
I assume you do not get into an airplane and complain about the noise, or it's fuel efficiency. Or get a couple new headphones and complain the bass isn't immersive enough. Yet, you'll enjoy flying on a better plane or hearing music better.
So stop treating people like shit for working their asses off in making our products and riding better every single day. Stop treating consumers like stupid sheep for appreciating a continuous process that has made absolutley EVERYTHING better than what it has EVER been.
If we followed you lousy attitude we'd still be riding flexy rubber forks with no travel on 25 kilo bikes with brakes that hardly stand heat all for the sake of being against "consummerism". If RockShox wanted to do what you say they wouldn't activley invest money and engineer retrofitting upgrades at much lower prices than just making a new fork.
I'm running my Pike closer to 15%, and I'll bet I weigh twice what your wife does (100kg here). After some testing around 20%, I realized that it was the damper (boo to Charger RC, HC97 on the way!) and/or the fork riding deep into the travel and ramping up causing the spiky-ness and harshness I felt in small amplitude but high-shaft-speed bumps (think 1-2 inch exposed roots every couple few feet on a fast trail: DPX2 in back soaks them up like butter, Pike sends them all to my hands). Added some pressure, less sag but it didn't effect the small bump much at all (giant negative spring!), but also helped the fork stay high and ready for medium to big hits.
But we're talking a couple few mm, where as most everyone has seen a 140-150mm Pike that won't extend much past the 10% sag marker even with the wheel off the ground; won't go full extension unless you pull on it. And that's shitty and shame on RockShox/SRAM for releasing that crap spring design.
Note: this comment: www.pinkbike.com/news/first-ride-rockshoxs-updated-debonair-air-spring-pond-beaver-2020.html#cid2556279
Post Note: PB comments really need full threading!
I’m a fox fan boy but it’s pretty much setup through vorsprung advice and the luftkappe is awesome.
Under the previous Debonair, which had a larger negative spring than the new one, you could increase air pressure to get the support/ride height wanted, but doing so can make it hard to use full travel.
Having a slightly smaller negative spring, as RS has done with the Debonair C1, means that the fork is more willing to top out at lower pressures, giving that higher ride height at a positive spring pressure than can be bottomed out more easily.
With the 19/20 Debonair, many people were setting up their forks 5-10 psi above pressures recommended by Rockshox to avoid having the fork riding too low as a result of the large negative spring. These high pressures make it more difficult to use full travel.
My bet is that people will end up running the Debonair C1 at pressures 5-10 psi below where they were running the 19/20 Debonair to get the same small bump sensitivity (i.e. the pressures people actually run will be closer to what Rockshox currently recommends for their weight). The fork will sit higher at these lower pressures as a result of the smaller/lower-pressure negative spring. However, the lower positive spring pressure will make it easier to use full travel on big hits, at the expense of some support in the middle of the stroke.
The negative spring tuning on the Meg Neg air can is a good starting point for how I'm thinking about this. The instructions are to add bands to the negative side if you can't get full travel, which reduces the positive spring pressure required to hit the desired sag point.
5-10 PSI extra is not going to matter in reaching bottom out for most people. It just means on the big drop you kinda nose-dived off, the bottom-out clunk will be quieter or maybe non-existant. Plus, that's what tokens are for: take some out. Or leave them in and have an extra 5-10mm for that time you almost died trying to clear the big log-to-log double and nose-cased that shit hard. Do you really want to it easier to bottom out?
"easier to use full travel on big hits, at the expense of some support in the middle of the stroke"
For yeas now, everyone has been telling us that their new stuff has more "midstroke support". It's been used so much as something that's just pain better and that we all want and need it Right Now (TM), it's literally become an almost laughable buzzword, like "longer, lower, slacker" or "nimble" or "flickable". Thus, I'm pretty sure no one wants to trade the fabled "midstroke support" for the ability to more easily bottom out their fork.
1. Springs support, dampers control.
2. Smaller volume air-springs are more progressive (spring rate increases with travel).
2a. But a relatively larger negative air spring volume makes the entire system less progressive.
3. Higher relative negative spring force (more pressure in negative chamber or a stronger negative coil) makes initial movement easier, particularly in air springs.
3a. Pneumatic top-out (the negative spring force stops the entire system from extending instead of a mechanical stop) is more likely with higher relative negative spring forces. This is NOT always a bad thing.
4. Given similar starting and ending rates, a linear spring will give more mid-stroke support than a progressive spring.
Check out the spreadsheet linked in this video, which allows you to play with air spring parameters: www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-l2l2kca0A&fbclid=IwAR3HF_HmPBEp3nmtlqWvCGtTc3BfTyocWhLtVBcEk7TPqK7VvyV-BFmnUio
If you compare a larger and smaller negative spring, the smaller negative spring has more ramp early in the stroke, followed by a reduction in spring rate increase in the middle of the stroke. The large negative string has a straighter spring curve through early and mid stroke, but requires more air pressure to avoid excessive sag. But as a result of the higher air pressure, the large negative spring version has a higher end of stroke spring rate.
The cynical person in me thinks the new air spring is designed for less aggressive riders who were failing to achieve full travel and who couldn't wrap their heads around the static sag associated with the pneumatic topout (particularly with heavy e-bikes). The new air spring will top out fully and will need to be run at a lower positive spring pressure to avoid an excessively harsh early stroke, which will help that sag indicator rubber band hit the crown on larger bumps.
That said, we may be talking about small differences here, and the actual feel on the trail may not be drastically altered.
I actually wish they had some kind of middle ground. I don't like the dead-zone feeling at the top of my DebonAir spring, but I also don't want the tiny negative spring of the new version making things harsher off the top (my 2019 Pike is already spiky whenever the front wheel comes down from being in the air, compared to my old 2016 Fox 36). I'm going to try shimming the hub first (maybe it's bushing bind from the stupid "squeeze everything!" 15mm axle), then a Push HC97, and if it still sucks, then a new Fox 36 will be the choice.
I got the upgrade, and following the recommendation of _not_ changing air pressure or tokens is stupid/bullshit. I started with the same pressure, and yes it rode higher, but was harsh as f*ck off the top, which is to be expected with a smaller negative volume (and lower pressure negative because it starts equalized instead of compressing the negative a little bit). I dropped from 105 psi to 95 psi and it felt smoother, but front wheel traction was tough since the fork didn't push the wheel down as firmly with the same body position. I'm hoping that splitting the difference at ~100 psi makes it feel just right, or there will be an upgrade kit for sale real cheap real soon.
SRAM claims that the spring curve is the same, but if it was, then the dynamic ride height _would not change_. What they're really doing is getting everyone to run less sag. The entire air spring _is_ smaller, so the same pressure is going to give a higher static ride height (less sag) along with a higher dynamic ride height, but _not_ the same curve.
I got the new air spring and ended up liking it. I dropped from 85 psi to 75 psi, keeping the same number of tokens. While the old spring was quite willing to move on small bumps, it felt like it ramped up quickly on bigger hits, likely because of the higher pressure I was running. The new spring is soft enough off the top after dropping some pressure, and the deeper part of the stroke is less harsh. But I still find it stays high enough in its travel and feels more supportive in pumping and corners.
I still find it funny that Fox has gone the other way with their new 36, increasing the negative volume. I am not sure what to think anymore.
I thought that was exactly not what was to be achieved with the 2019 Debonair, so they are going backwards in a way now?
Anyhow, I did change mine by mixing Debonair with Debonair2 and drilling a hole in the 2017 shaft, did the same...
The situation : 55kg rider with 50 psi recommendation in 29" B1 lyrik (02T80291029), even with 60 psi the fork stands at 125mm instead of 160mm...
Goal : get to approx 160mm travel
question : what to get, old spring @180mm, or the new one @160/170mm?
Currently looking at 00.4020.572 00x (x being "1" for 170mm), but maybe also...
00.4019.932 001 or
11.4018.026 020?
Seems like those go from newest to oldest, and what I already have is the second one?
By moving the piston to equalize chambers exactly at top-out, they've taken away a bit of the negative spring's power, and now it's pretty much there just reduce stiction by providing equal pressure to either side of the main air piston seal at top-out. Which means it will still feel pretty damn good in the parking lot (minimal air spring stiction), but won't be quite as supple as the old spring (where the negative was actively trying to pull the fork into the travel). Also should be way easier to get a good sag setting because the chambers don't fluctuate partway through the travel.
As for the pressure and force, yeah, it is pressure times area. But the negativ spring has a smaller area to work with because you have to subtract the airshaft area. That's why you need or can have a higher negative chamber pressure and not have the spring move into the travel, if balanced correctly. RS misjudged it a bit with the old design.
Plus the dimple being slightly into the travel is why you have to cycle your fork/shock when you change the pressure before measuring the sag after the adjustment.
Does anyone have any more information?
EDIT: 25 USD doesn't seem that bad for an upgrade, but I don't see a reason to do a 45 USD upgrade.
Since you have the latest DebonAir already, we made two upgrade "paths" - full assembly for those who may want to also change the travel at the same time, or the cheaper option - just the new Seal Head and foot nut!
Seal Head Upgrade Kit - DebonAir C1 35mm Seal Head (Includes seal head & specific nut) - LYRIK/YARI A1+ (2016+)/PIKE B1+/Revelation A1+ (2018+)
What? That extra room is not part of the spring, it faces down towards the lowers. It's just there because they moved the negative chamber's seal upwards in order to shrink the negative chamber.
Or 0 psi depending on how you look at it: because our pump gauges tell us the difference between what's in the thing and the atmosphere, which is ~14.7 psi at sea level. So, a gauge on the lower leg would read 0 psi at full extension. A reading of 0 psi on the main spring would feel pretty much empty in the context of actually riding it.
Why didn't they have to change the damper side? That side's lower-leg-kinda-air-spring is still going to ramp up just as much as it does right now, probably negating any tiny changes to the air side.
I know the HC97 will be great, but I kinda don't want to deal with taking my damper apart, and I'm not sure how rapidly Push could get it back to me right now. Since I can get a Charger 2.1 for less then sending out for HC97 install... though the high-speed compression adjust and high-speed rebound tune would be nice... Shit, I'll probably got HC97, but still curious how it compares to a 2.1 (RCT3 preferably) and an RC.
Awesome
"With the new air spring the fork no longer felt like it was sitting partway into its travel before any bumps were encountered. Instead, it was at full extension on smoother sections of trail; that means there was actually 160mm of travel available, instead of the 155 or 150mm that were available before."
This makes it sound as if the new air spring removes any sag from the fork at a given air pressure. Is this accurate?
@Bullit-Boy yeah the wording of that sentence is weird. It definitely does say there would be no sag: "Instead, it was at full extension on smoother sections of trail". Neither one would be at full extension with a rider on it on a smooth trail (obvi the rider is not doing a manual or something)...
I tend to not pay attention to the static sag amount. My concern is focused more on dynamic sag. Regardless, sag alone won't determine the correct spring pressure/volume for all points within the travel range so I don't use it as my only setup criteria. With the previous version air shaft and desirable performance otherwise, the fork would likely have more sag than is ideal for some folks. The revised version will likely have folks sitting higher in the travel (less sag) at a pressure that provides ideal results at the end stroke. I'll try a different approach that hopefully will clear things up. If you insist on 20% sag as your setup criteria, the old spring layout would likely require higher pressure to achieve this and therefore you might not have desirable results as you approach the bottom of the travel. If this still doesn't work for an explanation, I don't know what will.
Is the 2021 update an automatic upgrade? Maybe. Maybe not. I have the 2020 fork/air shaft and am happily running slightly less than 20% sag at lower air pressure than recommended but with an added Token and plenty of LSC damping. Bottom line: ride whatever setup that works best for you.
Don't you run your forks with sag? This makes it sound like you wanted to fork to be topped out. I would assume what you want from the fork is that it does a better job of remaining at sag height, and has more support in the initial parts of the travel...
That doesn't make any sense. It doesn't sink when no weight is on it, but instead, when weight is on it, it stays closer to sag? Those are two completely different situations.
This spring doesn't change the recommended sag, which is the only thing that is going to change the amount of travel available. when riding along on smooth sections of trail.
If it has the same ramp from sag to full travel, then it's not going to change the available travel in normal riding situations.
Initial support? But sag is the normal position when riding, why do you need much support below the sag point (Think bypass shocks on trophy trucks)?
What they really did was fix a f*ck up that took away overall travel, and specifically negative travel (relative to sag) which is needed for maximum traction. 20% sag on previous springs was really closer to 10% sag with 10mm less total travel.
This isn't something new and special, it's fixing a broken design that never should have been released.
Has PB ever done this ? If not why not.
Does adding an xmm longer foot nut = to xmm longer shaft?
Does the top-out bumper ever really come into play? The negative chamber should have enough volume and hence pressure if that volume goes to zero to keep parts from contacting - no?
00.4020.552.007 Latest Debonair Air Spring 160mm - 27.5 upgrade with new seal head and foot nut
00.4020.573.000 New seal head and foot nut needed to upgrade the old Debonair upgrade 00.4019.931.007 (160mm- 27.5)
00.4020.573.000 New seal head and foot nut needed to upgrade the old Debonair upgrade 00.4019.931.008 (150mm- 27.5)
Have your retailer check with HLC and QBP for parts. These parts should be available now.
Although I might use this as an opportunity to just go for 10mm travel more on a new airshaft, 130mm travel (what was a “bad” 120mm actual) to a true 140mm.
00.4020.573.000 AM UPGR DB C1- 35MM SEAL HEAD
@RockShox will the seal head and foot nut upgrade work on the previous 170mm debonair spring RS00.4019.932.002 ?
Also does this alter the number of tokens you can run?
Seal Head Upgrade Kit - DebonAir C1 35mm Seal Head (Includes seal head & specific nut) - LYRIK/YARI A1+ (2016+)/PIKE B1+/Revelation A1+ (2018+) : 00.4020.573.000
I also have 2017 Pike Debonair V1 150 and do like it, but going to increase the travel to 160. I may just buy the V1 Debonair air shaft instead, because V1 is very good. Will see if more people do comprehensive reviews of the V2 Debonair.
(Sorry if it seems like a dumb question just a bit lost haha)
Air Spring Upgrade Kit - DebonAir C1 160mm (Includes DebonAir C1Assembly, seal head) - PIKE B1+/Revelation A1+ (2018+)
Marketing Team: "NO WAY! You mean to say we have an exciting opportunity for an AMAZING performance upgrade?!"
didn't fawn over manitou when they released the mezzer did ya pinkbike
Even lamborghini's ferrari's gets little updates
There is no perfect in this world
Thx
Yo ya me bajo aquí,????????
Yo me bajo aquí...
i dont get it, stuff changes quite often in all industries, why is that a big deal??
I really like the upgrade paths for the forks right now.
You can buy a cheaper bike with a lower spec fork and upgrade it over time when you find you have a need for more adjustments.
I will gladly put this in my 2020 pike ultimate