We've already covered Lal Bikes' Supre drivetrain, including the
First Look in November of last year, the
results of their efficiency test, a deep dive
into the patent, and a
podcast with the man behind the design and prototype manufacturing, Cedric Eveleigh. Nicolai even debuted a production bike,
the wild-looking Nucleon 16, equipped with the Supre drivetrain in June, but that German monster won't be available for months.
In the meantime, Cedric is at Crankworx with his own prototype, a steel hardtail to test the latest 12-speed version of the Supre drivetrain. Better yet, he lent the bike to me for a few hours so I could gather some early riding impressions.
What is the Supre drivetrain?We've explained it a few times before, but here's a basic breakdown of what it is and why it exists. The Supre drivetrain splits the traditional derailleur's duties - shifting and providing chain tension - into two components that live in different places on the frame. First, the low-hanging derailleur that we're all used to seeing is gone, replaced in part by a mini-derailleur that's tucked up safely into the swingarm. You know, where it's far less likely to get ripped off or bent.
The other main component, the tensioner, rotates around the bottom bracket and does the job of the now missing derailleur cage - to add chain tension.
Supre works with mostly conventional components, including a Super Boost hub, normal-ish T47 bottom bracket, cranks, cassette, chain, and shifter, but it does require a purpose-built full-suspension design that uses an idler pulley... Or a purpose-built hardtail in the case of my test bike. There's also a general DIY theme that underlines Eveleigh's approach to everything, from machining his own idler pulley wheels to 3D-printing his own mini-derailleur out of polycarbonate at his shop on the Sunshine Coast of British Columbia.
He estimates that he's made thirty to forty prototype derailleurs at this point, and put in three and half years of full-time work, including a trip to Germany in order to lab-test the drivetrain's efficiency.
What's it like on the trail?If I had never met Cedric, didn't know anything about the Supre drivetrain, and had only seen photos of his prototype hardtail, I'd probably tell you that it seems like nothing but trouble, to be honest. There's a whole lot of chain, an idler wheel, another pulley that's spring-loaded to act as the clutch, and a homemade derailleur that looks like it's missing some important pieces. None of that says smooth sailing and trouble-free to me, but that's exactly what Eveleigh is promising with Supre - durability, efficiency, chain damping, and a lower unsprung mass.
But once I was rolling to the trailhead and running through the gears, I realized that it felt and shifted surprisingly normal. His derailleur is proprietary, of course, but it's controlled by a normal 12-speed Shimano shifter, uses a Shimano chain and cassette, and shifts, well, very much like a Shimano drivetrain. Shift speed is on par as well, which makes sense given the chain and cassette, and it doesn't require any more (or less) force at the paddles than you'd expect. So far, so good.
I usually try to avoid riding while blindfolded, but I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference in shift quality if I had hit the trails with my eyes covered. The same feedback applies to shifting under heavy load on tricky climbs, with the whole thing simply working well despite my best efforts to be a complete meathead.
I have a rollercoaster relationship with idler pulleys, including plenty of shit talk when they add obvious friction and I can easily feel them rumbling through my pedals, especially when they're covered in grimy mud. But I've also recently ridden a couple of bikes with well-thought-out designs that were essentially invisible when the drivetrain was clean and lubed. The key is to use as big of a pulley wheel as you can to limit friction, which is exactly what Cedric has done with his prototype. The result is surprisingly (to me) smooth action across all the gears, even when in the smallest or largest cogs when the chain is at the most angle coming off the idler pulley. Part of the reason for this, Cedric told me, also comes down to how far forward the idler sits relative to the chainring and derailleur which allows that angle to not be as drastic as it might be if the idler was in-line with the seat tube. The caveat here is that it's bone dry and dusty in Whistler, and I'd like to see how it feels when plastered in sticky mud and grit.
That said, I did manage to derail the chain from both the 'ring and the lower spring-loaded pulley, but I had to engage full-on meathead mode to make it happen by shifting through eight or nine gears while back-pedaling like a complete goober. Without a guide of some sort to act as insurance while goobering, the chain finally came off. I'm not sure how fair that was - no drivetrain acts nice when you do that - but people do some strange things in the real world, including myself.
With more chain running so close to the bike's seatstay, I had expected to hear some rattling as I pinballed my way through minefields of pointy rocks on his hardtail, but that certainly wasn't the case. Instead, the bike was quieter than most of the full-suspension rigs I've ridden, despite it being a proof-of-concept prototype equipped with homemade components. It was covered in enough rubber to silence even the Grim Donut, though.
Does all that mean I'm convinced?I've probably written a few too many mean things over the years about gearboxes that shift comically bad and rough idler pulleys, but there's a good reason for that: I simply don't break many derailleurs, don't bend many hangers, and have generally had pretty good luck with the status quo. But I'm also aware that I'm often using fancy, expensive things, and that my test miles are usually spread out over many different bikes. Contrast my saddle time with many riders who are doing nothing but park laps on rocky trails, pedaling through rockier terrain than I see, possibly using less expensive and less reliable components, and also putting more time on a single drivetrain that needs to last a long time.
If the production version of the Supre drivetrain works as well as what I used today in Whistler, and if it proves to be trouble-free over multiple seasons of abuse, I can certainly see a place for it on some riders' bikes. Those who aren't mangling derailleurs on a semi-regular basis probably don't need to think about purchasing a new bike designed around a proprietary drivetrain, but there are definitely riders (and trails) for which the Supre drivetrain will make a lot of sense.
What's your take on Supre - is there room for another type of drivetrain, or is it trying to solve a problem that you don't have to deal with?
You do not have the consistent chainline, kinematics of a gearbox or the sealed nature of the system to reduce wear. Nor the reduction of sprung weight by losing the cass/dr off the wheel.
Unlike traditional drivetrains you’re reliant on very obscure parts for servicing a multitude of critical systems, springs for tensioners, specialized gas shocks requiring holes to mount in the frame, proprietary derailleur. Lots of things shops cannot and will not stock. So you saved yourself a dr but have maybe lost weeks of time sorting out a replacement part.
Sure you avoid smashing a derailleur, or gain efficiency over a pinion gearbox, but you’re paying $8k usd as an opening price point from a boutique brand to do it.
What is the secret sauce I am missing here?
Quick list of ideas for aspiring inventors/innovators, since nobody seems to be able to figure out what the real problems are (hint: the solutions are not AXS and flight attendant).
1. Frames with headtubes that grow in a manner that bears a passing resemblance to reach.
1A. A bar with one up compliance and more than 35mm of rise (vibrocore honorable mention)
1B. A quality stem with positive rise that costs less than an I9 stem.
2. Brakes with pistons that always retract evenly, every single f'ing time.
2B. Pads and rotors that never make a peep no matter the number of dusty bike park laps (admit MTX pretty darn close)
3. Rear air shocks that are dependable.
3. Rear derailleur clutches that don't suck.
4. A bikeyoke revive quality post over 200mm with one up overall length and shimmable drop.
5. High quality bearings with mtb optimized seals.
6. Tires with Maxxis rubber and tread patterns that have don't develop wobbles (and still have reasonable weights).
7. A selection of bars with different backsweeps.
8. Quality, resolable shoes with stealth rubber.
9. Tannis tubeless inserts that don't squeak in 2.3 tires.
10. Spoke nipples that satisfy the weight weenies but don't seize up.
There are so many real world problems that need to be addressed.
And while we're at it how about an objective flex measurement for bars. The same bar will flex differently at different widths under different sized riders. Oh a oneup bar dampens vibration. But what if I'm 230lbs will it still work or will it be a noodle? Or if I'm a 110lb woman will it work at all? I guess we'll never know.
6. Even better if tire compound would work also below 5 C/41 F. Maxxis rubber doesn't.
1B. Funn Equalizer?
7. SQLab?
I left out creeking crowns because smaller brands have solved the issue.
I agree with what you are saying, except
Cheap,easily available and serviceable.
The first two no longer exist and the third is debatable.
1. RD weight: The biggest "wft"- moment is comparing a X01 mechanical RD (or even the DH RDs and cassette) to a AXS RD. I love this "F1" type shifting BUT it feels like you mount a brick to your hanger. I guess a lot of people feel the same if their rear wheel gets a view 100g lighter. So if the supre RD get´s lighter than a standard mech RD, I can see a more responsive rear end again. I think I read something like that as well in a pinion complete bike review, that they experience the same.
2. Chain damper: If you´ve ever changed from a RD without a damper to one with a damper or the other way around, you´ll know how much more solid your bike feels on the trail. If you watch the huck to flat videos you see how much energy there is on the chain. Even with current state dampers the chain may be slammed on the ground on your bike. Every device that can handle that a little bit better, would be a big selling point for me, cause the current state of dampers is not enough for me personal.
But for your Nicolai point, you are right. I wouldn´t change my whole platform just for this new tech. But if you could get a cheaper frameset or your bike is run over by a truck why not.
(im really stoked that your bike is getting some exposure by the way, and props to Jakob for the awesome welding!!)
I was planning to buy Trek Top fuel frame set. Al version was 2700 and cf over 4500 euros!!! (In the States al $2300 and cf $3700 plus taxes if I checked right).
Choices are nice; would I want this for an XC or fast trail bike? From what I’ve read, probably not. But I can certainly see the appeal in having this for a heavy duty trail / park bike. Having a large degree of drive parts commonality certainly helps steer that choice.
That recent Nicolai looked smart, it’ll be interesting to see who else releases their own take on the design.
Question.
From the pictures on this bike and the one fron Nicolai it is clearly visible that both the derailleur and the cable still stick out.
So in a crash it can still be damaged like any other derailleur based system.
Have you thought about using some kind of bash guard on side of the frame to protect the derailleur? Maybe like a sturdy piece of plastic like chainring bash guards.
No charge. Just have some spare capacity and want to help a fellow Canadian innovator.
Why not go the Honda mech / cassette in a box route. Clean and simple.
@twonsarelli - I haven't ridden a gearbox bike but have also heard very good things about how the suspension performs. I'm waiting for Paul Aston to review the Starling Spur he has which looks very nice.
Now can we talk about how hypocritical it is from the author to give a pass to a transmission that is 0.9% less efficient than "your grimmy and dry transmission" but will ultimately meet the same fate as it is using a chain and is exposed, while he keeps on whining about gearboxes that are barely more inefficient but will offer the exact same efficiency throughout their life and no matter the conditions. I don't understand why gearbox manufacturers don't do some efficiency tests before and after a ride, before and after 5 rides with no maintenance, etc, this would put a definite end to this debate and show how superior is a GB compared to any derailleur type of transmission. That is a GB transmission using a belt of course.
buying a high end parts, proper ultrasonic cleaner , cleaning solutions and wax is cheaper and quicker than buying 2x high end parts and normal lube.
* excludes Wend wax @twonsarelli:
zerofrictioncycling.com.au
Silca ultrasonic cleaner recommendation
youtu.be/ka0DLKBrhB4
Ultrasonic Cleaning and re-waxing chain is much quicker than normal cleaning and wet lubing a chain. than@DustOnCrust:
Used and recommended by mr friction facts
it also has compatible liquid lube top up called super secret drip lube
zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Lubricant-detail-review-Silca-Hot-Melt-v1.2-converted.pdf
Its a very easy read
@Balgaroth:
how many chains do you have to buy each time you need to change a chain?
what happens when you're in the alps on holiday and your proprietary mech gives up the ghost and none of the shops stock a spare?
what happens if you snap a frame and can't afford a direct replacement to transfer your fancy drivetrain over to?
I'm out.
2. Going to depend on the bike design. But sure you want to hear 2, so let’s say that.
3. Bring spare of your own. No different than bringing an idler for a Forbidden or whatever. Some people bring enough tools and spares that a local bike shop isn’t needed.
4. Warranty the frame?
It’s not that hard being a responsible adult, I promise.
Some people should learn riding a bike instead of lloking for technical solutions to overcome how bad they ride.
It's not an easy path forward. He'll need a brand to go all-in to build a run of frames, and a manufacturing partner to build the derailleurs and various small parts (which hopefully don't infringe on existing patents). I think it's a tough sell at the likely sales volume for this, but wish him all the best.
Wow.
a strong frame. Something that i can buy and not worry about breaking on me or being manufactured wrong....
but no, we are out here trying to move the derailleur. - not a hit out at Lal bikes, the guys doing what he loves and i like it.
There is some seriously good steel bikes around now... can someone mass produce these please?
Because we f*cking can. Because we F*cking can, and if we can we do.
But yeah, I can certainly see your point as well. That's not how it was intended to come off, though.
Also
Pinkbike , ffs move the logout button !!!!!!
Pierre-Yves t’as donné mon numéro de téléphone.
chu a Gibsons.appeles-moi
JF
I do think though that we're charged through the nose for cheap bits of pressed metal and plastic, so I really wish that current drivetrains were priced appropriately and therefore disposable (though that'd be wasteful!), or rather that they'd make them properly durable & serviceable and charge the same money. I think one or both of those options is much more realistic than hoping for the invention of a 98% efficient gearbox.
where i do think gearboxes have a future is with ebikes - the negative attributes of weight & drag (and to a degree, added expense & serviceability concerns) are somewhat ameliorated, and i'm sure they could resolve the shifting issue through electronic actuation.
Weight
cost
strength
friction efficiency .
PICK 2
From cycling about
“There are a few reasons why the Pinion P1.18 is less efficient than a Rohloff hub. ( AND ALSO NORMAL DRIVE CHAIN)
Firstly, the chain runs 50% faster in the equivalent gear, so this results in more losses at the chain itself. Secondly, as the gears get higher on the Pinion it engages faster rotating internal cogs, potentially resulting in additional losses. And lastly, the large seals at the crankshaft may also contribute to the losses.”
Changing materials wont reduce friction of crankshaft seals. ( the main friction in bearings come from the seals, then the grease then the cage Thats why ceramic bearings don’t reduce friction very much)
No material exists on earth that will reduce weight significantly maintaining the material properties for longevity and durability of the current pinion gearbox
You could buy a pinion gearbox 3d scan print and replace all the parts with plastic but it wont last long
You easily make it a lot lighter.
You could replace most of the parts with ceramic gears ( ceramic are at least half the weight of steel)
Modified zirconia (ZrO2) has the highest fracture toughness of any ceramic but is less than 1/5 of steel.17 MPa.m1/2.
It could be used for some parts but not the teeth themselves
Zirconium (Zr) cost 73 times that of Iron (Fe)
Zirconia must be CNCed before sintering. So it cant be stamped out
To lower price of manufacture to that of cheap entry level groupsets
Teeth could be made with a alumina oxide nickel titanium composite. But has even lover fracture toughness 5.6 MPa.m1/2.
Nickel is 35 x the cost of Iron(Fe)
Because of the cost of raw materials and complex manufacturing techniques Economies of scale wont improve light weight gearbox affordability
The cost of a ceramic gearbox would be horrific even if mass produced . Who wants a $45000 non durable gearbox
bauergmc.com/ceramics-and-their-role-in-future-gear-design.html
precision-ceramics.com/uk/materials/zirconia
www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prices_of_chemical_elements
iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/2053-1591/aafc06
It’s a giant leap backward I’d say.
You're looking at it wrong. It's just their opinion that your opinion is crap. You dont like their opinion?
I just thought it was wrong to hide my ‘crap’ opinion.
And im glad it wasnt a Pinion gearbox opinion, then we'd be talking about people's opinion about your Pinion opinion and that would get confusing.