First Ride: Forbidden Dreadnought V2 - More Travel & Longer Chainstays
The final piece in the trinity of Forbidden’s updated frame design comes along with a redesigned Dreadnought V2, their enduro powerhouse bike. Like their Druid trail and Supernought downhill bikes, the Dreadnought takes on a multi-link rear triangle but remains a high-pivot suspension design. This layout opens up tuning the kinematics with more independence and incorporates refined pivot hardware.
On top of that, the travel has been boosted to 160mm out back and there are geometry changes to expand the Dreadnought’s downhill capabilities. But, there are also tweaks to aid its seated position and the overall weight, which shouldn’t be scoffed at for a bike of this nature.
On top of that, the travel has been boosted to 160mm out back and there are geometry changes to expand the Dreadnought’s downhill capabilities. But, there are also tweaks to aid its seated position and the overall weight, which shouldn’t be scoffed at for a bike of this nature.
Dreadnought V2 Details
• Full carbon frame
• Wheel size: Mixed or 29"
• 160mm rear travel, 170mm fork
• High-pivot suspension design
• 63.1 / 63.5° head angle
• 77.1 / 77.5° seat angle (S3)
• Sizes: S1, S2, S3, S4
• Weight: 15.6 kg / 34.3 lb (S3, actual)
• Price: $8,499-11,999 CAD, $6,499-9,299 USD
• forbiddenbike.com
• Full carbon frame
• Wheel size: Mixed or 29"
• 160mm rear travel, 170mm fork
• High-pivot suspension design
• 63.1 / 63.5° head angle
• 77.1 / 77.5° seat angle (S3)
• Sizes: S1, S2, S3, S4
• Weight: 15.6 kg / 34.3 lb (S3, actual)
• Price: $8,499-11,999 CAD, $6,499-9,299 USD
• forbiddenbike.com
The Dreadnought V2 is only available in carbon (which isn't surprising, since Forbidden hasn't produced an aluminum bike yet). All three build kits use a SRAM/Rockshox throughout, beginning at $6,499 USD / $8,499 CAD, but a frame/shock/chain guide option is available for those wishing to custom build their own.
Frame Details
Following the lead of the Supernought DH frame, the Dreadnought features interchangeable dropouts. The Dreadnought frame kit and complete bikes are available in either 27.5" or 29", zero-offset dropouts. Aftermarket +/-10mm dropouts for the 27.5" wheel or +10mm sets for a 29" will be available shortly (pricing TBA). They with also serve as a direct mount for a 200mm brake rotor.
Besides the bolt-on dropouts, another identifier separating the looks of the second generation Dreadnought and the Druid is the custom MRP lower pulley. Forbidden called for this component due to the larger amount of chain growth brought on by the extra 30mm of travel. The fixed position eliminates user error or slippage, should it tag any protruding trail features.
Standard protocols for Forbidden, like water bottle and accessory mounts inside the front triangle, plenty of rubber frame protection, internal cable routing, and serious chain security are in place.
On the frame specifications, the seat tube measures 31.6mm, the BB is of the 73mm BSA type, and the rear wheel runs on a 12x148mm, like the Supernought.
Suspension Design
Replacing the single, high-pivot design of the 1st generation bikes, the Dreadnought V2 sees a floating chainstay member introduced. This allowed Forbidden to unlock a more independent series of kinematics.
The anti-squat is now raised to a high 137% (at 30% sag w/32-51 tooth gearing), more than most idler equipped-bikes. The leverage curve is now straightened while beginning and ending higher than before, which should make it easier for lighter riders to move to a light enough coil spring.
One caveat to this multi-link design is that the axle path is no-longer entirely rearward. At the 135mm mark, the rear axle begins to arc forwards, but we can attest that it doesn’t detract from the Dreadnought’s high-pivot bump-erasing qualities.
As mentioned, the rear wheel travel has been bumped up to an even 160mm from 154. That’s controlled by a 205x60mm stroke shock. In our case, the X0 Ultimate kit comes with the trunnion mounted Rockshox Vivid Air - a shock we’ve rated highly in the past.
Geometry
Forbidden has adopted one of those sizing charts, like Specialized, Trek, and many others, using a digit and letter to identify size. Four frame sizes exist for the Dreadnought V2; S1, S2, S3, S4, spanning reach numbers from 430 to 491, nearly all in 20mm increments. In my case, I chose the S3 frame (I’m 178cm/5’10” for reference) with a reach of 471mm.
The real numbers to talk about in detail here are how the front and rear center lengths are balanced. That makes up Forbidden’s “One Ride” concept of keeping the ratio between the front and rear center measurements the same, regardless of frame size. That theory was applied to the Dreadnought V1, however, it’s changed slightly on the V2 frame.
The front to rear center lengths remain at the same ratio across all sizes when the zero offset (stock) dropout is in place.
If you compare the Dreadnought V1 to the V2, the chainstay lengths have been stretched significantly, even in the new neutral setting. Those have extended from 446 to 460mm (V2, stock).
On the other hand, the reach has been reduced from 479 (V1, MX) to 471mm (V2, MX), while the stack increases from 634 to 645mm, leading to an overall shorter front center (V1 834mm, V2 829mm).
In terms of angles, the head tube angle remains a slack 63.1 degrees (63.5 for the 29er). Tightening up the theoretical top tube length, the seat tube angle gets a degree steeper at 77.1.
All of those reach, stack, and angles skew slightly when toggling between rear wheel sizes.
"Bloody Sabbath" and "Fatty T"
Models and Pricing
For a cool $9,299 USD / $11,999 CAD, the X0 RS U kit is a no expense-spared parts list consisting of Rockshox Zeb and Vivid Air Ultimate suspension, Sram X0 T-type drivetrain, OneUp V3 Dropper post and the powerful Maven Ultimate brakes. Crankbrother Synthesis 11 Carbon wheels, the usual Maxxis tires, Fizik Terra Alpaca X5 saddle, and a Burgtec carbon steering combo round out the package.
Sliding down a price bracket, the GX RS S+ comes in at $7,299 USD / $9,499 CAD and, as you might have guessed, includes the RockShox Zeb, Vivid Air, and Mavens in their Select+ and Silver trims. Likewise, the drivetrain is of the T-type, but the heavier GX model and the wheelset sees alloy rims laced up.
Next up is the GX RS S that takes a similar path, moving to the base model RockShox and SRAM components, reverting to the UDH mounted GX AXS drivetrain. For $6,499 USD / $8,499 CAD, it isn’t as attainable as other brand’s entry-level price points.
All builds and sizes use 165mm cranks, 200mm rotors front and rear, and come with either MX or 29er wheel choices.
Ride Impressions
This literally was a First Ride, as Forbidden’s engineer, Ollie Blight, made the hop over from the island that morning to deliver the bike and sample the ideal spring conditions with me. I tweaked the controls, set the rear sag to about 30% on the Vivid and left all of the adjusters in the neutral setting, excluding the hydraulic bottom out, which was open.
The Dreadnought V2 builds on what the 130mm-travel Druid V2 can do very well, track the ground extremely well. Tack on another 30mm of travel and stretched geometry means it’s not going to hang about. To put it simply, the first lap was a heater.
There are two turns at the bottom of a classic Squamish trail that are easy to enter too quickly, drag brake and sit upright in, balling it up properly. On the Dreadnought V2, everything changed. I was in the middle of the bike with total confidence to go faster. There’s a lot of wheelbase, but also tons of grip and stability to push the tires into.
We’ll need more time to lure the Dreadnought V2 into some jankier trails and pilot through larger jump sets, but even with flat pedals, it didn’t need much encouragement to change direction or pull over obstacles. Part of that could be the smaller, and therefore lighter, rear wheel which can change direction faster. That said, getting the Dreadnought into a proper manual takes a good yank on the bars.
Another bonus that can muddy a brilliant bike is noise; it’s dead quiet. I didn’t come to think of it immediately, but after reflecting on the ride, the Dreadnought V2 mutes trails. All that’s heard is the pitter patter of the tire treads and the buzz of the hub.
One small downside is the wee amount of drag from the extra pulley wheel, which the Druid V2 doesn’t require. During our long-term test with the Devinci Chainsaw, another high-pivot bike that tackles bumps well, I removed that chain tensioning arm in favor of less drivetrain friction. I’ll be experimenting with the lower pulley on and off, to see if that 1% makes any difference during the full review of the Dreadnought V2.
Editor’s note: Technically, it is forbidden to remove the lower pulley on the Dreadnought V2 in accordance to Sram’s Transmission guidelines and not something either company recommends.
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To an extent, that is true.
Also want to call out that often bikes with longer chainstays, have a much taller stack height. And while the longer chainstays make it harder, the taller stack makes it easier (as you're already more leaned back). Not that they totally cancel each other out, but, they sort of do to an extent, at least IME.
I'm not good at manuals on my Banshee Titan... but I also wasn't good at them on my Kona Process. But I got on the titan thinking it would feel "impossible", but figured it wouldn't matter to me. Turns out, not impossible, and not as much different as I thought it might be because of the taller stack.
Not against having options, I think I would have pulled the trigger on the last gen except I really wanted my rear wheel to be in the same area code as my front wheel. 1330 wheelbase is just unhinged.
Ignoring the chainstay bit for a moment, is the wheelbase all that weird?
An XL Transition Spire is 1322mm, an XL Rocky Mountain Slayer is 1325mm, and an XL Knolly Chilcotin is 1327mm.
And a k3 Pole is a whopping 1343mm.
I’m not disagreeing that it’s a long wheelbase, but it’s not all that different from some of the bikes in the same class.
The front/rear center ratio conversion (with sag added for the rear chainstay#) is around 1.71 - 1.76 for this bike. Ideal range for 'normal' bikes seems to be 1.82 - 1.88. @1.71 it means you're weighted abnormally further back on the bike...then to set you even further back the headtube length is only 105mm (should be 120mm as I'm still going to be running 5-15mm of headset spacers and a 40mm rise handlebar, at 5'8" tall.)
...Forbidden..what in the hell yall. This bike requires a whole new approach to riding, almost.
Cool..I hope.
How is 495 reach not for someone who is 6ft 2?
that's the reason for the extra pulley since they solved their not working clutch with somthing that can't move much at all and can't take the chain growth!
It's worth looking at reach and stack together. Or looking at the front center to assess the size differences, and the wheelbase to see the overall size of the bike. Essentially the front end of this bike is a little shorter (5mm), while the majority of the change was in the rear. This was done to bring the riders neutral position more to the center of the bike. The main geo goal for this bike was to increase stack on the larger sizes, and shift the weight distribution more central. This was consistent rider feedback from the V1. Of interest, the -10mm dropout will give a similar weight distribution as the V1 - for riders that prefer that handling.
I already got one on order, it can't come soon enough!
I like the measurement of "Span" (which you see on other brands geo charts from time to time).
It is the hypotenuse between reach and stack numbers. Basically, how large the frame is in a single number, instead of two.
The size Large Dreadnought V2 has a span of 799mm, which is larger than the V1 (which was 794mm). Thats on the larger size for a size L bike, although not the largest I've seen (Raaw Madonna v3 holds the record there, with a span of 819mm, which is only 2mm smaller than the XL Dreadnought v2, for reference).
The Reach is very short, but the Stack on the XL is still quite low. If the Stack was increased significantly then I could understand how that could potentially work when your body is in a more upright position. Stem spacers isn't the solution, as you are just further shortening the reach.
How is a big guy supposed to ride this?
Personally I’ve found that ratio is one of the biggest determiners of how comfortable/confident I am on a bike. At least as a taller-ish guy (6’2” in shoes).
My first bike was really imbalanced, but I was so new to riding it took me 3 years to figure out why. That bike was a Kona process 153 with itty bitty 425mm chainstays. My current bike is a Banshee Titan with 452mm chainstays, and it feels more natural/comfortable to me in every way than the Kona did.
I know it’s a personal preference thing to have longer rear centers, and that not everyone will want that. But as someone who has preferences similar to what Forbidden is offering here, it’s nice to see an option catered to my preferences for once
I guess some of that depends on what you consider a short or long chainstay. Personally I see anything under about 435-440mm or so as "pretty short" in L/XL sizes. 440-445mm seems pretty "average", and then over 445mm is getting into "long or longer" range.
And, you're right chainstays are trending longer as bikes are getting slacker/longer, so you're right its getting more common. It used to feel the other way around.
But its not like its "that hard" to find something with short chainstays (at least what I think of as short, I'm sure we don't agree on that). All of these are in my giant bike nerd spreadsheet, and have what I'd personally call "short" chainstays.
Canfield Tilt 425mm
Kona Process 134 427mm
Evil Wreckoning 430mm
Canfield Lithium 430mm
Ibis Ripley 432mm
Kona Process 153 435mm
Kona Process X Carbon 435 or 450mm
Propain Mx builds are 435mm (Tyee, Spindrift),
Ibis Ripmo 435mm
Commencal Meta TR 435mm
Kavenz VHP is 419/425mm static with the +0 dropouts, and ~435/436mm at sag.
I figured we differed in what we thought was "short". No worries.
You're right, bikes with chainstays 425mm or less (particularly 29'ers) are hard to find.
I don't think all bikes should be the same, nor am I trying to say that. Its good to have options. I genuinely hope you can find bikes that you are happy with/get excited about. Good luck on the search.
You're right.
I have a giant nerdy spreadsheet I use to compare bikes (started during covid, when you couldn't even sit on a demo bike most places here).
I compare the sagged rear center length of high pivot bikes, to see what the actual FC/RC ratios are like. Interestingly, I found that many/most non high pivot bikes, have a very similar sagged rear center length as they do static. Most low pivot bikes seem to have a small amount of rearward axle path, that typically seems to have their rear center length grow from static, then return to about the same length as the static by about 1/3 travel (at least most horst link and twin link bikes I've looked at).
The sagged numbers show the new dreadnought should have way more weight on the front tire than any other bike in the same travel range I've seen (its got a FC/RC ratio of ~1.74. Most bikes are 1.85-1.88 or so. My Banshee with long stays is 1.
I've never ridden something like this, and would love to take it for a spin and see how it feels.
When closer to a ratio of 1 where would that position you on the bike relative to the BB? Where would a ratio of 2 put you?
Thank you for clarifying.
Any news on if it is still dual crown rated?
I see dropouts for different rear center lengths/wheel sizes, but when I check the geo chart the rear center lengths are identical between wheel sizes. Is this correct?
Can you run a 29in dropout with a 27.5 rear wheel (or vice versa)?
2/ The '0' or mid dropouts, which are the lengths stated in the geo chart, result in the same rear center for both wheel sizes. This is also true for the '+10' dropouts. The '-10' is only available for a 27.5" wheel.
3/ Technically, yes, but the BB would be too low to ride well.
THANK YOU!
Oh, a few other random questions, since I'm sure you'll see this as its in the same thread.
I see all the build kits are with AXS. What is the routing situation like for mechanical derailleurs/shifters?
Are the dropouts wheel specific, or are they length specific? Meaning, is the +0 dropout the same for both the 29 and 27.5 rear wheels, or is there a +0 dropout specifically for 29, and another specifically for 27.5?
That is an incredibly precise axle to crown limit. My Mezzer has 794mm axle to crown height in its 180mm travel setting, would I be voiding the warranty if I used it? (I only its only .3mm... just curious why that super precise number is listed as the limit).
Thanks again for your help. The bikes look interesting. Maybe someday I'll get to demo one, and/or afford one
regardless, spending all the cash on t type and going with select suspension is a pretty dumb choice, cable and ultimate makes the most sense, better suspension and adjustments go a long way, fancy electronics that do exactly what the cable version does with way more money and weight not.
Disclaimer: I am just picking bike fit and being a d*ck about it. But thank you @ForbiddenBike for sizing bikes to fit my d*ck.
At 6’, with a 34” inseam, the xl was too big due to the slack seat tube, and the large was too small due to the low stack height.
Dealer finder is here: forbiddenbike.com/dealers/find-a-dealer
I ride a budget Druid ( AKA Banshee Prime), and it simply feels amazing to just sit in the bike and push though your feet as you carve corners.
Also the Italian mad man Rulezman makes an idler wheel attachment for the Prime and Titan if you want to take it one step further. Although, it's important to understand it only helps limit the amount of feedback you get through your feet, the axel path doesn't suddenly start going backwards.
464mm chainstay at 0% travel, growing to around 480mm at sag and 495mm at bottom out.
Not necessarily.
Totally depends on frame size, or more specifically, front Center length.
435mm at sag is quite short on an xl.
I’ve found 441mm on a large deviate claymore to be spot on in large.
Any of my bikes shorter than that were unbalanced in comparison.
Even still, is 34.3lbs with a double down rear tire really that unbelievable?
I have a medium MX V1 that weighs almost 3 pounds more than your large. I'm not saying it's impossible, but DD casing tires and transmission are not light. Mine is built with a Push, DH casing, and an X01/XT drivetrain.
Obviously speculation in the comments section, and I could very well be wrong, but the dropout system makes me think this frame would weigh more or at least not less than a V1
The reach numbers have gotten quite a bit shorter ... I understand the chainstays got longer, but a 10-15 mm decrease in reach?
I'm 6'4", and currently have 510mm reach which feels great. So to see this has 15mm shorter reach makes me quite hesitant as a tall dude. Can someone at @ForbiddenBike explain the rationale for the reach shrinking?
When comparing geo, you can't really look at any single number in isolation. We encourage you to try and demo a bike to truly understand the fit and handling.
Will definitely be looking to demo (purchase?) soon! Send a bunch to Stay True Cycles in Berkeley, CA so all of us northern Californians can get more sampling =) .
Work out roughly what wheelbase you like, and go from there. (And bear in mind the wheelbase on this will grow up to the 130mm travel mark too)
What a lot of riders are looking for now is a bike that puts them in a neutral position on the bike, more centered between the wheels, more upright and active. These new designs allow riders to push down into the pedals to load the tires instead of leaning over the front of the bike. The entire act of riding requires a new approach, but it rewards with really incredible handling and a much more active, responsive, balanced ride. For sure there are drawbacks and trade offs, but for me and how I like to feel on the bike this has been a huge improvement.