Confirmed: Cannondale's New Downhill Bike Has 2 Shocks

Apr 23, 2019
by James Smurthwaite  

Cannondale have released the first proper footage of their new downhill bike and it confirms that the new bike uses two shocks to provide damping, one with a piggy back in the downtube and one without in the front triangle. Check out the video above for more information on the new system.

photo

bigquotesDownhill is the ultimate proving ground - a place where relentless innovation requires fearless determination and a bit of creativity. For Cannondale, downhill racing is a kindred spirit, an attitude that has pushed the boundaries time and time again. Cannondale returns to the sport after a decade-long hiatus, bringing new knowledge and a fresh approach. We are here to test, here to learn and here to race.—Cannondale

It would have been easy for Cannondale to produce something similar to the GT Fury, as both brands are part of the Dorel Sports group, however it's cool to see Cannondale going their own way and reaffirming their status as the mavericks of the mtb world. There's no word on whether this bike is a final production model or not but we're aiming to get our hands on one as soon as possible to learn what the system is all about.

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338 Comments
  • 627 7
 Twice as shocked as I thought I'd be.
  • 52 5
 it's like its gone through 2stage's in its elite design process
  • 13 30
flag Franziskaner (Apr 23, 2019 at 8:13) (Below Threshold)
 I groaned but I also did a little lol (a lqtm?)
  • 31 89
flag 74tenomresc (Apr 23, 2019 at 8:16) (Below Threshold)
 @sewer-rat: clearly these young cucks don't know what 2stage is. And they probably don't know who Arraiz and K9 industries are.
  • 8 2
 @74tenomresc: got to admit, his was much cleverer than mine
  • 16 19
 @BenPea: i think yours was the more clever pun. i was just pointing out how people downvote because they dont know their mountain bike history.
  • 2 0
 @74tenomresc: I don't even know if 2stage became that well known outside New Zealand though I definitely don't recall Arraiz having had anything to do with it. Cool to see him here though. That's the one they did share within the Dorel group Smile .
  • 5 3
 @vinay: they probably weren't, ive just been a massive bike nerd for a long time so i know that sort of esoteric thing. and afaik Arraiz didnt, but they probably don't realize what a great engineering mind he is. He was ahead of the curve with alot of the K9 stuff he was doing ~10ish years ago
  • 6 0
 @74tenomresc: Arriaz is probably well known, at least among the readers of Dirt magazine as he had a column there about bicycle suspension design. A good few of the British visitors here must have been reading those, probably a good few abroad too as it was a popular magazine. As for 2Stage I don't know. I happened to be in New Zealand by the end of 2004 and as I was missing my bike I picked up a copy of the New Zealand Mountainbike Rider magazine. It had a cool picture of Nathan Rankin kicking up some roost on a bike where the front triangle was wrapped in neoprene. Obviously that got me interested and soon enough they released that bike to the public. I do think it was featured in Dirt too at some point, though I am not sure. Arriaz was quite busy with K9 at the time and I don't recall him being involved with 2Stage back then. That said, Arriaz was here on PB quite recently answering questions in a "ask us anything" with GT Bicycles iirc.

So yeah I expect people to know Arraiz. As for 2Stage, for me that was just coincidence.
  • 26 16
 No room for water bottle
  • 13 1
 @dobermon: Get a linkage fork up there. Doesn't the Message have shocks in both legs?
  • 47 19
 Leave it to Cannondale to overcomplicate a sport that everyone else is realizing is super simple now that suspension technology has caught up to other racing avenues.
  • 11 5
 The Corsair DH bike had this set up and it kind of made sense.
  • 1 3
 @BenPea:
Only twice as much.
  • 14 1
 @bizutch: Or, they look at what has leveled off and stabilized since you and I were sliding down the hill with Mud Puppy Sports races on 4" piles of junk, see the linkage benefits and work on a new era of possibilities with the solid foundation we have.
  • 2 1
 @dobermon: Just make the stays into shocks.
  • 9 0
 @usedbikestuff: Manitou did that way back in the early 90's
  • 5 0
 I was a nerd also, used to love the pointless funky bikes like these , Laharr and RB Dragsters, ahhh memories @vinay:
  • 9 1
 @bman33: I bet if we had Strava back then, most of the KOM's would still be standing today. Wink
  • 2 0
 @bman33: Oh, i still cry.
  • 5 0
 usually you pay more for extra strokes.
  • 7 0
 @sewer-rat: not really but I see your comparison.
The old 2stage (i owned one) (a preproduction to be precise) used 2 seperate shocks to control different parts of the travel. the top shock handled the first 4 inchs and pedaling around a low pivot.
Once you blew through that the high pivot engaged and you had more support in the lower part of the travel and bad pedalling.

this design is splitting dampening and spring duties. the top "shock" appears undamped.

the lower is controlling the dampening. letting both work separately. Like a trophy truck i guess
  • 8 1
 Scott Octane style from the late 90's, amazing to see Cannondale back again with technology from the 90's. First of all Commencal have bought back a modern day Vprocess NV00 and now Cannondale using 2 shocks which they also experimented with back in the late 90's

Funny how tech everything goes full circle, oh yeah and for anyone reading this a Trek Session looks like a Turner Afterburner/Kona from the late 90's.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: think big strap like twenty crutches to a horse for that natural and eco friendly feel
  • 1 0
 Might as well throw these on
images.app.goo.gl/kEGTLvfE6i2MFxu28
  • 3 2
 Why not hide the coil and display the damper instead?
  • 1 0
 @JLastra: classic
  • 2 0
 This bike needs 36" tires
  • 1 0
 @vinay: Arraiz certainly had nothing to do with 2stage. The less said about that bike the better, IMO.

This design is entirely different from the 2stage. What you see here actually only has one spring and one shock (damper). They're mounted in different locations though so that each has a different leverage ratio. Typical Arraiz design; genius, and uncompromising.
  • 1 0
 @Tambo: Yeah, I always thought it was a bit of a compromise to have the spring and damper in the same unit. It was typically optimized for the best spring position (to have it progressive at the end and/or to easily overcome initial stiction or threshold in case of an air spring) but the damping was just a passenger. A lot of damping near bottom out (where you want a lot of spring force) isn't going to do much as there is little speed there.

I don't know much about 2Stage. I saw that picture on the cover of NZMBR magazine and I've been looking at it in the next couple of years, but they really seemed to have got mainstream attention so I don't even know how well it performs. I do agree it is indeed very different from this Cannondale bike, if it has separated the damping and spring units in different parts of the linkage. Kind of bummer though that the NZ brands aren't getting that much attention. There is often some unique stuff brewing up there. Obviously Zerode is well known. But for instance it baffles me how this American brand (forgot the name) is getting props for being the first to develop a high pivot trail bike with idler pulley whereas @craftworkscycles has their ENR and no one notices.
  • 1 1
 You are a genius
  • 462 2
 The Cannondale engineerings finally found the other side of the lefty and were tasked with figuring out where to put it! Voila.
  • 18 7
 dude. dead
  • 40 1
 Remember the Lefty?
It’s al right now
  • 12 4
 Brought to you by Fox and Rockshox to a Bike park near you => One bike => 50% more revenues on suspension.
  • 3 3
 Found it like we we can’t put it back on the lefty now hmm where to put it?
  • 8 0
 @mkotowski1: They use it as top tube suspension:

www.pinkbike.com/news/aaron-chase-softtail-cannondale-bike-check-2008.html

Edit: And now I want to know the story about Mike "Kakah" Levy.
  • 5 2
 @MTB-Colada: Dude, that's 100% more $)
  • 1 2
 @sergeyeremin: Nope, you forgot abt the fork!
  • 1 3
 @MTB-Colada: 200%
  • 284 2
 Now I can fail at setting up two shocks instead of one!
  • 63 10
 Learn how to turn your own knobs. I'm the best at turning my own knobs. I know just how I like it
  • 35 5
 I would say I've just about mastered the art of fiddling with my knobs. Now I've started playing around with my friends knobs as they're hopeless with it...
  • 14 2
 @Jack-McLovin: with that username I don't doubt it!
  • 8 2
 @Jack-McLovin: After they saw what I'd done to mine, they would't let me anywhere near theres...
  • 12 4
 I want a fork with four stanchions. I’d call it Fourty.
  • 29 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Fourk
  • 133 2
 If they're separating the spring and damper to generate two different spring and damping curves, that's brilliant. We wax poetic about separating pedaling, braking, and suspension forces, but we don't blink an eye about the spring and damper being locked into the same leverage ratio even though they're one of, if not the, most important tuning factors in full suspension bikes.
  • 9 2
 Very possible, the bottom shock looks like a coil model with only the shaft remaining.

Edit: The timestamp is 1:52 . Everywhere else there is a regular shock
  • 31 0
 That's more or less exactly what they say in the vid. Around the 1:20 mark the tech states that they're going to put him on a "separated damper / spring combo" where the damper has a specific leverage ratio, and the spring has a different, adjustable ratio. I agree it's brilliant... not sure why nobody else has tried this.
  • 32 3
 @srjacobs: Frame Design Engineer, not a technician. An important distinction to some.
  • 4 0
 @srjacobs: there was a scott dh bike back in the days with a similar setup (around 99 or something)
  • 14 11
 @srjacobs: Been done in formula 1 for ages - this is a long time coming. Why design engineers rely upon the air or coil spring for damping is a questionable practice at best...it's a massive oversight that has recently been corrected by the shock manufacturer _____. It's long been corrected in MX world - why are bike guys so blind.
  • 19 0
 @downcountry: Who relies on an air or coil spring for damping purposes? Is there a special high hysteresis coil spring that I should have used? Big Grin
  • 34 0
 @downcountry: Please post pics of mx bikes with separated springs and dampers
  • 4 3
 @srjacobs: It could be that these companies have sales in mind too. A bike that has two shocks is going to be much more complicated/expensive to set up as well as maintain. So when price an simplicity are taken into account other companies may not pursue it, even if it may be a better design. The bottom line after all is to sell bikes. Also its different, and we all know how antsy mountain bikers get when something looks a little different.
  • 2 0
 @srjacobs: at 4:23 it looks like they're even running it with no upper shock.
  • 9 3
 @jmjr: You do, you just don't know it and understand the design concept and theory. The 5 volume spacers that you add are because your valving / damping tune (and supporting architecture) is incorrect not because the air spring is an issue. Your asking for damping from the wrong component - an uncontrollable component that suffers due to adiabatic and quasi static friction. Also, your shock and fork rely on a air or coil spring for damping...just not intentionally. Formula 1 separates spring and damper. Mx knows how to build a damper and spring system that minimizes use of spring force.
  • 3 0
 That bike is going to feel incredibly supple, I wonder how sensitive it will be?
  • 14 7
 You can then mod it and use one of the shocks as a hydraulic bounce unit. I’d convert water bottle to a speaker and ride around playing “Still Dr.E”
  • 3 1
 @optimumnotmaximum: Its true. but technology and testing has come so far since 99. so lets try again. like high pivot with idlers. its back in vogue now and our tech now supports it.
  • 3 0
 It's certainly not a new idea. I wrote about doing this ages ago when I worked in the bike industry as a design engineer- Riley&Scott did it on their WSC racecars around 25yrs ago and MotoCzysz did it on their C1 racebike (a friend of mine worked there.) The big advantage was you could have a linear/progressive spring but a completely different (even regressive) damping curve. A while after MotoCzysz did it on their bike Ohlins and Penske figured out how to build a regressive damper and made it kind of moot in the motorsports world.
  • 3 2
 @downcountry: I would say I know a fair bit about damping as a fifth year mechanical engineering student, but unless you care to explain I can just say that the hysteresis of a coil spring only leads to a marginal damping effect.
  • 2 0
 @jonodavis: And by some, you mean Frame Design Engineers Razz
  • 2 0
 It can be done in the same package with position sensitive damping. Husqvarna did it in 1983 in dirt bikes, using a twin shock design. It worked brilliantly but it was a couple years too late, as the rest of the world went with linkage driven single shocks a year or two earlier. KTM revived the design in the late 90’s, early 2000’s. It worked great everywhere, except in the extreme world of supercross.
  • 2 0
 I can't quite work out in what situation you would want the spring curve to vary wildly from the damper curve. Rebound in particular the damper is working directly against the spring force so having the two working on the same curve makes a lot of sense to me. I can perhaps think of a few out there situations where different curves would work in compression, but enough to make it worth all the extra fuss of an entirely seperate shock rather than a pos sensitive damper combined with spring?
Anyone out there with more moto experience shed any light on how exactly this set up helps?
  • 1 1
 Any air shock lets you do that with volume adjustment.
  • 2 0
 @gabriel-mission9: I don’t see the point. This was never pursued in moto as far as I know. I grew up during the suspension revolution in the early 80’s. They played with everything back then.
  • 86 1
 There's that classic Cannondale wackiness, and I love it
  • 16 0
 so good to see them back at it! respect!
  • 6 0
 I like Cannondale reprising the role of creating weird and different...anyone remember the kestrel rubicon?

www.pinkbike.com/news/1995-kestrel-rubicon-comp-now-that-was-a-bike.html
  • 62 1
 I cant afford to service one shock...
  • 84 3
 work harder and longer hours! that way you'll finally have enough money to service a nice shock on a nice bike but no time to ride it. if you have no time to ride it, your shock won't get much use and really have no reason to ever service it to begin with so problem solved.
  • 9 30
flag butters1996 (Apr 23, 2019 at 10:20) (Below Threshold)
 then learn to do it yourself or budget more money to the service of your bike?
If you cannot then dont buy a bike with high end suspension in the first place. You wouldn't spend money on high end car parts without realizing that the cost of upkeep is high would you? Same with bikes.
  • 9 4
 Ride hardtail
  • 58 1
 A regular suspension layout from Canondale would have been sorely disappointing!
  • 2 2
 exactly..it will be all boring
  • 51 6
 Two shocks, one frame.... I almost threw up in a cup!
  • 1 0
 Thanks for reminding me of that internet classic!
  • 44 1
 ShockWiz says: "challenge accepted."
  • 19 0
 2 mins later...

ShockWiz says: "F#*@ing coil shocks!"
  • 35 2
 I read this as one spring and one damper like any bike, but they are just separated (like in many automotive applications). Not so much two two separate shocks that need tuning... At first appears extra complicated but really might not be.
  • 6 2
 Yup all I see in total is one shock, not sure what all of this 2 shock talk is about. It's like saying you have 2 shocks when you swap out coils for those 5 min but then you're back to 1 when it's all put back together lol.
  • 1 0
 Yes Dave thats what I got to. Its nothing like the old 2stage which was using 2 seperate shocks to handle High and low speed compression and Transition between low and high pivot. This could have legs often with these designs they are surpassed by single shock tech fairly promptly.
  • 2 0
 It is Cannondale, so you cant really blame people for assuming the most complicated answer to be true (said as a former, and fond Cannondale owner!)
  • 29 5
 Cannondale has gone from half a fork to two shocks. Honey grab the kids and run!
  • 20 1
 That's pretty cool, nice to see out of the box thinking and experimentation come back to CDale.. Luis is the man!
  • 17 0
 When I saw this I actually made myself popcorn before going to the comment section!
  • 17 2
 Needs a lefty in the front to completely fuck my head
  • 22 0
 It's got a lefty and a righty! Crazy mofos.
  • 3 2
 nah, a linkage fork
  • 7 2
 They should have done a right handed single sided swingarm rear.
  • 4 2
 @h82crash: A left fork and a righty rear would be ridiculous. From above the bike would look all like

II
\
II
  • 7 1
 Linkage Lefty or I'm not buying one.
  • 3 1
 The lefty makes an appearance at 4:17
  • 1 0
 @PhillipJ: My brain hurts thinking of that.
  • 14 2
 Hmmm... after watching the video, it sounds more like one damper and one spring, just located in two different locations. The upper "shock" is really just a coil spring with no real damping from the sounds of it.
  • 7 0
 That’s what I got from it as well, near the beginning they literally say they want to split the forces going to the spring alone and then to the damper. So that they can make adjustments to both with out influencing the other. Whereas with a traditional shock set up the single shock is responsible for both spring rate and dampening which causes changes in either to effect one another.
  • 15 2
 Yup... but you would probably be double shocked by the number of people who are commenting here without actually watching the video.
  • 1 1
 @davetrumpore: to be fair, there is a bit of detail if you have decent earphones
  • 2 1
 @davetrumpore: is Jordi getting paid double for this or for working with Loris Vergier?
  • 2 1
 @davetrumpore: nobody should be shocked, it's the Pinkbike comments section.
  • 1 0
 @davetrumpore: I was actually responding to the title of the article claiming the bike has "2 shocks," when in fact it's a damper and a spring, which is what every DH bike has, they're just in two separate locations on this one.
  • 11 1
 Stoked to see Mr Simonds giving it some shred. They seem to be taking it seriously and the bike looks pretty nice (IMO). Rear hanger area is borrowed straight off a demo thou!
  • 14 4
 A+ username
  • 12 0
 Where's the Dave Weagle USDA certification? How do I know this is made with real cheese?
  • 10 1
 Ok, i previously wrote that Cannondale debuting a new DH rig fails to excite me. I take it back. I'm not sold on the idea, but they definitely got my engineering mind all curious!
  • 7 0
 Std in the Motorsport industry to have split rates on springing and damping, means much more control with less compromises. Usually a massive weight penalty but since it’s a dh bike that’s not a problem - be good to see how stable it is in prolonged rock gardens
  • 16 6
 I'm 2 shocked to fully comprehend
  • 14 1
 * 2 shocked 2 comprehend
  • 45 0
 @mattg95: 2 shocked 2 furious
  • 1 5
flag nyhc00 (Apr 23, 2019 at 9:33) (Below Threshold)
 2 Shocked Crew
  • 11 1
 The Shocked and the Curious: Loam Drift
  • 9 1
 Xzibit hired by Cannondale to pimp their bikes. "Yo dawg- we heard you thought the lefty was only half a fork- so we put a shock on your shock"
  • 10 1
 Bike won't be available to purchase, so i've heard.
  • 3 4
 Either was the Fulcrum if I recall...
  • 2 2
 because its too expensive... Smile
  • 2 2
 History just keeps repeating itself
  • 8 1
 Don't they have to make them available for sale if they are to be used in UCI races?
  • 2 0
 Yep 12 months after@acmilan1899:
  • 6 3
 "Mavericks of the MTB world"

Translation: Noone's going to buy our dumb proprietary shit so we're not even going to put it up for sale.
  • 1 0
 @acmilan1899: What makes you think that? Honda RN1?
  • 3 0
 thats what gt said about the previous sanction too. unless it is honda which has no interest and infrastructure for selling bikes, i dont believe it. the frame is not a weird looking raw alloy proto with crazy welds, it is a production ready looking carbon frame, makes no sense not selling it.
  • 2 1
 @acmilan1899: I only heard about that on the road side, and even then, there's nothing against them charging $50k for it I guess.
  • 1 0
 @acmilan1899: so, if someone wins a World Cup DH on a bike design that isn’t brought to market within a year, is that rider stripped of the win? Is that what you are suggesting?
  • 1 0
 @freeridejerk888: sounds like nonsense.
  • 10 1
 If the bikes as good as Cortes hair style they should be on to a winner.
  • 5 0
 It would be great in a straight line, but not very well-rounded.
  • 2 0
 @mattg95: Loose and easy in a straight line and quick to buzz on the corners.
  • 9 0
 This is the bike that should have been named the Tues.
  • 4 0
 Seems interesting that for the majority of the riding clips in the video and "spy" photos, there has just been the one shock/coil in the downtube. So looks like this can be run either way. Wonder if they'll offer it as a single shock version and a split shock version.
  • 6 1
 I saw a prototype a couple of years ago where one shock managed vertical travel and a second shock managed horizontal (rearward) travel. That'd be hawt. Glad to see CDale back in the game of making unique designs.
  • 2 1
 Foes did that one on a prototype Hydro not too long ago. It would be cool to try this out, I hope Cannondale gets it dialed in.
  • 4 0
 Notice the lower “shock” is mounted differently in clip, a dual shock isn’t going to really do anything worth the weight, but much like Yeti has done w Fox as well, a very specific function “shock” that doesn’t add too much weight could make sense. This appearers to be a test bed not a prototype meaning they are seeking data not proof of concept. Also having dual suspension can provide data on forces etc to allow understanding of where linkage that isn’t there would or wouldn’t work. This seems like cool F1 type stuff where understanding what is possible is goal not bringing a bike to market, and if Rat is going to be on it, now is not time, his skills far bette utilized ripping and filming...
  • 5 1
 I just want to see Ratboy race this thing at world cups again. When Josh was on fire nobody could touch him and DH is a little to serious without the Rat around.' Just need to find a female rider with Missy's attitude as well and Cannondale can have a dreamteam...
  • 9 3
 This would be interesting if they're using the separate damper as a bypass shock, baja style.
  • 9 5
 Watching the video might help.
  • 6 0
 @alexsin: I did in fact watch the video and there was no mention of the isolated damper being position sensitive.
  • 9 2
 Guys, don't get too Judgy...
  • 8 1
 Not really a dual shock but rather a non coil over design
  • 7 0
 imagine Loris and Jordi trying to dial this bike.... GOLD!
  • 8 5
 Running a linear damping linkage and a progressive spring linkage seems to be unnecessary in my opinion. You can easily affect spring progressivity on an air shock by changing the volume of the positive air chamber. Running a linear frame with a progressive air spring (or a dual rate coil spring) would yield nearly the same results. The only application that would be hard to replicate would be the opposite: progressive damping and linear spring rate. But I dont think that anyone would want to run such a setup as most vehicles rely on progressive spring rates for bottom out control (in addition to hydraulic or mechanical bottom out damping/bumpers).
To me this makes the impression that cannondale wants to market something as new and innovative, that in fact is just a complicated way to do something that is already easily achievable by other means.
  • 2 0
 Safe bet the setup they are showing is not the actual suspension piece that the lower mount is designed for, dual shocks or separated spring shock doesn’t really merit so much development, nor dual air shocks. Cannondale’s innovations good or bad have typically been unique designs not just slight rethinking of past oddities....
  • 1 0
 most of mtb springs found in the typical coil shock got a linear spring rate indicated with the resistance in pounds. This is not for adding just more progression like a volume spacer. Most modern shocks (metric one´s) are far more linear in damping rate cos the new suspension design add natural progression and need a less crazy damping forces. Dual rate coil springs are not very used in motorsports,if you can put 2 or 3 damping pieces per corner is way better. Most road cars&bikes uses progressive springs cos it may carry 5 people or a heavy load (500 kg of payload) but a race car only carry the driver/copilot,it is a cheap way to solve the problem,but not the best way.
  • 6 1
 Really happy to see this kind of innovation happening at the big company level.
  • 4 0
 Now I didn't read every comment....but there doesn't seem to be any statements regarding its aesthetic appearance being akin to a certain Trek Wink
  • 4 0
 Separating spring and damper leverage ratios is actually the smartest idea I've heard in a while. Looks stupid, but it's smart.
  • 7 2
 Give it to Bender, he'll blow out both of those shocks...
  • 8 6
 you've certainly created a new pivot point of bike. don't know though, coz actual effective body progressive felt suspension through frame depends where between bike you experience ie a tight point. don't think I like that.
  • 15 0
 wat
  • 7 1
 Have you had a stroke recently?
  • 6 1
 Upvoted so more people can experience it.
  • 2 1
 The power of Christ compels you! The power of Christ compels you! Be gone demon!
  • 6 1
 That’s just pure geeky pleasure seeking suspension magic
  • 6 2
 Modern (updated) Gemini? I think you have to be over 40 to truly appreciate that. ????
  • 2 1
 I'd say 35+
  • 1 1
 @Jparker164: yep 35, I came into it just as gemini got retired. Still one of favourites though.
  • 2 1
 yep Gemini is back!
  • 10 6
 Ah I missed the old Cannondale. Providing solutions to problems that don't exist
  • 3 1
 I watched a review somewhere for the Habit, Bible of Bikes maybe? The reviewer said Cannondale was making regular bikes again, no lefty or weird designs... Cannondale; hold my beer.
  • 1 0
 Whats up with the adjustable mount for the spring carrier, on the rocker?
The rest of the layout looks pretty straightforward but this adjustment has thrown me. It looks like you can use different travel spring setups without changing the wheel travel. Or something.
It could just be normal geo adjustment kinda stuff, but it looks too big a change. And you'd end up not being able to use the dampers full travel in all modes which would be odd. I don't really get it.
  • 1 0
 I would imagine that this is not exactly what the production bike would look like. To be able to move the shock around in the front triangle really would let them try different leverage ratios with the coil. I would imagine that the mounting points for the damper are also able to be moved. Almost looks like they are taking hints from the Athertons IMO(in regards to changing geometry), except they can change the geometry of the suspension on the fly to see what works best. I bet they find a sweet spot for a production line.
  • 1 0
 Double the rear shocks, Twice the Puzzling!!

"So half a click of rebound down on the top shock, but 1 click up on the bottom shock with 2 clicks-up of hi-speed on both, one click of low-speed on the top, 2 clicks on the bottom."

Wait wut..?
  • 1 0
 Not a "twin-shock" or a "double shock". You even quoted it in the article: "separated damper spring combo". One is only a damper, and one is only a spring. Those aren't twins, and definitely aren't doubled since there is only one each of damper and spring.
  • 3 2
 Curious but theres a lot of hate going on here towards cannondale lets be fair there is only one cannondale rider the best man in the world with only headshok on the bike back in the day thank you mr martyn ashton
  • 2 0
 www.youtube.com/watch?v=as2lAQpAJiI
  • 1 0
 Cheers mate epic lol @gabriel-mission9:
  • 5 2
 But will it be faster? This is a timed event I believe not a comfort event.
  • 2 2
 Of course, it doesn't separate spring and damper from each other. It just gives them different input leverages. I'm afraid it's s just another FSR implementation, with this 'novelty' being innovative.
Also, there's some weird cable-end or bolt head sort of thing over rear-end of coil-over spring, the top one. Is it some cable actuated stopper?
  • 1 1
 Mtb community: “we don’t understand this lefty fork thingy with a single stanchion. Why can’t you just have a dual stanchion regular fork like everyone else”.

Cannondale: “Hold our beer... how bout a regular fork with dual stanchions but we aren’t going to stop there... we are gonna up the ante and also double the shocks! No one will see that coming!!”
  • 1 1
 If the front end is pushing hard, reduce high speed compression up front. If it starts sucking down, rebound both front and rear maybe too slow. I have found most forks to be spiking with too much high speed compression and it sets up both ends of the suspension wrong. Trying to increase high speed compression out rear just makes for a jarring, spiky mess- the rearward travel of the fork tends to lead to too much compression damping in attempt to compensate for dive. Suspension is much faster in the loose with less damping.
  • 3 0
 @R-trailking-S E-mail that to Jordy.I'm sure he'd appreciate the advice.
  • 1 0
 In the vid they mention that the frame can be run with a single combined shock in the lower position or a separated damper spring combo. Will be interesting to see it this is an option on the production bike.
  • 5 2
 Doesn't the weight of measuring equipment effect the data?
  • 13 0
 The fact you are observing it changes the outcome, double split experiment /double shock experiment,................
  • 3 3
 Somewhat, but that is usually accounted for. The system records IMU data (i.e accelerations, i.e forces) along with suspension data, so they can basically get a range of input force vs suspension response. When riding, there is no difference to suspension when it sees a mass of 1.1x coming down at velocity 1v or mass of 1x coming down at velocity 1.1v.
  • 6 3
 Karpiel - WE DID IT FIRST
  • 4 2
 Armageddon tired of these copycats - Jan.
  • 5 0
 Actually cannondale had a shot at dual shock in early 2001(ish)
mbaction.com/cannondale-unveils-the-geminimarch-13/amp
quite earlier than the armageddon... although both designs use the addon for a different purpouse to the newest one...
  • 1 0
 @easy: Good lord...that MBA article from 2001 is still online!
  • 1 0
 @easy: I think I meant to say Apocalypse. I don't think the Armageddon was dual shock. I'm pretty sure the Apocalypse (first rolling prototype made) that I was allowed to parking lot ride in 1999 at Squaw Valley was dual-shock.

Scroll down for pix:

www.pinkbike.com/news/Karpiel-bikes-2009.html
  • 1 2
 @easy: I am glad someone posted this. 2 shocks hence the Gemini. But then the production Gemini came out with one shock and single pivot
  • 1 0
 Apocalypse!
  • 3 2
 Shock designers just got put on notice! The fact that a frame designer is out thinking the shock designer is a good thing. Nothing like a bit of engineering competition!
  • 3 0
 All shock manufacturers can stand and clap now!!!
  • 4 0
 MIssy should ride it.
  • 1 1
 Damn another thing I should have patented, separate the elastic element, coil, from the damping element, shock absorver... Probably there's more downsides than ups but is worth trying as it seems.
  • 1 2
 For a factory racing bike this is cool.... I imagine it does have some performance advantages that make it worthwhile. Does not seem like a bicycle that will be popular with the majority of downhill riders though. As a college dh rider I can barely afford to keep my bikes running... couldn't imagine throwing another shock into sticker price and maintenance costs. Either way its cool and innovative and made me jealous of all of these peoples jobs.
  • 1 1
 Anti-vibration plates for the front fork with foam insert steer tube, foam filled frame. 6 piston front / rear disc. 28.25 inch wheels/tires. multimatic rear shock with bubble gum volume spacers and a wine cork bump stop.
  • 1 0
 This bike is only complete with a Trust 200mm fork.
Why only having two shocks in the back if you also can have also two in the front?
  • 2 3
 I got two shocks with the last Cannondale I bought...first one was how the salesman didn’t want to know me after I’d spent my money and the second was how truly awful the warranty department were when my 8 grand carbon Trigger exploded after less than a month of riding. ????
  • 2 0
 Hmm, seems like it has ONE shock and ONE spring. Just in different leverage points. Curious how this turns out.
  • 1 0
 Is Matt Simmonds on the start list for this weekend at the WC? Is the bike ready, or will they wait until later in the season?
  • 1 0
 Yes.
  • 3 1
 Click-bait headline, it doesn't have two shocks. One spring. One damper.
  • 1 0
 WTF?! Get f*cked mtb industry! Maybe come out with a full face for my dickhead you can try to sell us next...
  • 8 6
 That put another damper on my day
  • 19 18
 As usual, Cannondale have managed to make a complicated solution to a problem that never existed in the first place!
  • 6 7
 The usually create another even worse problem
  • 6 2
 its not actually that complicated though, is it?

How do you know it isn't a problem? Do you ride at WC DH level pace, do you have any experience with spring and damping rate tuning at this level?
  • 2 10
flag AD4M (Apr 23, 2019 at 15:19) (Below Threshold)
 @justanotherusername: Well, I don't think I've ever heard a world cup racer going "I wish my bike had two shocks which will add unsprung weight to my bike for no apparent reason whatsoever." With modern shocks, the range of adjustability is so significant that it negates the need for this setup. I mean the damping can still be adjusted independently of the spring rate using shims, so I don't understand the purpose of this linkage considering that there is a significant jump in unsprung weight which will reduce suspension sensitivity anyway.

Why do high performance cars, motorbikes and trucks use coilovers instead of separate springs and dampers?
  • 4 1
 @AD4M: look at Trophy Trucks, I would consider them the equivalent Motorsport vehicle to a DH bike and they run 2 shocks, the bypass handles the damping and the coilover is basically a holder for the springs
  • 2 1
 @AD4M: have you ever spoken to a World Cup DH racer about their suspension or are you going from the angle that it hasn’t been mentioned on Pinkbike?
  • 2 0
 Yeah a massive truck where weight isn't an issue. A bike where it is no. One shock and spring is okay for a downhill bike @Eviljarv:
  • 2 0
 @freeridejerk888: weight isn't the main difference between trophy truck and mountain bike, only looking at the shock.
If you look here =>
i.pinimg.com/originals/8c/52/f1/8c52f19f516ce093943a3f2a263a3a0d.jpg
The coil spring with fitting rate just can't be monted on their enormous damper. Both of them having the same progression curve, only the average leverage rate being different.
  • 1 0
 But what about a lighter off road truck like a sandrail. Plenty use "coil over" suspension@faul: mountian bikes are a lot closer to dirt bikes. You need a bigger damper for bigger loads. An 8,000 lb truck yes. Not a 40 lbs bike
  • 1 0
 Ever hear of a dirt bike? @Eviljarv:
  • 1 0
 @freeridejerk888: by that logic then why do we need VPP, DW link, etc bikes, let's go back to high single pivot suspension since it works for MX then it has to work for a bike.... And what Cannondale did is separate the spring from the shock, not add a second one so weight penalty is minuscule
  • 5 3
 Comments section implosion in 3.....2.......1.....
  • 9 0
 your comment ended with the correct number of shocks...
  • 4 0
 @f00bar: 10 points to the house of hufflepuff
  • 5 3
 Thats been done before i know it has
  • 3 2
 Yes! It was a custom Karpiel Apocalypse! Also had the Marzocchi Monster 300mm fork
  • 2 1
 I knew it couldnt remember now i know cheers fella @matt-15:
  • 3 2
 This sounded really dumb, then I watched the video. Cool. Also, I did not know that they have Matt Simmonds, also, cool.
  • 4 3
 Two shocks and 1 fork leg. My name is cannondale and I just want to look weird.
  • 3 1
 I think their engineers are taking notes from trophy trucks.
  • 2 2
 @masonstevens formula 1
  • 2 1
 Looks like a... Oh well, forget it -- does not look like anything else right now.
  • 3 1
 I wonder why they don't bring Rat into the DH development/testing program
  • 5 0
 You watching Rats Insta? He has been.
  • 3 0
 Where's the Rat?
  • 1 1
 Since Cdale is no stranger to suspension, i would expect they will make their own proprietary shock amd damper for this, saving cost and weight from buying 2 rear shocks.
  • 3 1
 They could run a commercially available coil shock (no spring) for damping and make a very simple spring unit. Would likely end up being comparable to a single shock for cost.
  • 1 1
 Looked like a YT but with 2 back suspensions. I always liked cannondale for there odd designs and the will to try something different even if it doesn’t sell well.
  • 1 1
 Cool..but surely this bike is only for pro athletes that have all resources: own technicians and sponsors. For daily bikers, this bike is much too high..
  • 1 1
 So, Josh back the world cup then? Maybe as a Peaty kind of role if not a racer? He's been saying how he wants to give back and help youngsters.
  • 1 0
 seems like they’re making up for their forks only having one stanchion...
  • 1 0
 Get RATBOY all over this Cannondale, HELLO????

Need I remind you?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjDJun7bLjo
  • 1 1
 Damn, Bianchi put 2 shocks on one frame before...They were on the future before!
  • 3 2
 Two shox? Two things which can be broken
  • 2 3
 Well you can have fun riding away on your unicycle then.
  • 2 2
 And no Ratboy helping?
He was the champion once upon a time.
Not interested or not the right rider?
  • 2 1
 Option B. How would you understand his feedback
  • 2 1
 Nice! Twice as many moving parts for CSG not to honour the warrenty on.
  • 1 2
 Lol
Cannondale: looks up expired patents on bikes that millennial kids never heard about.....KARPIEL BRUH

youtu.be/qBn9-3LYQRA

#neversimple
  • 2 1
 I feel like there will be a ton of proprietary BS Frown
  • 1 0
 They couldn't decide between Fox float DHX2 and DHX2 so they didn't
  • 1 0
 The top view of the reservoir is DHX2, and the one from the bottom is the Float X2. The wrong stickers do you think, or two different setups?
  • 1 0
 wow! it looks like a Moterra
  • 1 1
 Double Shock, double trouble. Bikes Mechanics will be physiqued with Cannondale engeneers once again.
  • 5 4
 one fork leg two shocks. this is why stoners shouldn't be engineers
  • 3 1
 one shock one spring
  • 3 4
 I guess they're trying to separate compression and rebound damping into 2 pieces of hardware, with different leverage ratios? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • 4 4
 They're not
  • 4 3
 Nothing get me more pumped than seeing innovation like this come out!!!
  • 1 1
 No time too dial in a bike with one shock let alone 2 I need a bike where you jump on it and go
  • 1 1
 Sweet, they never really fully exploited the potential of it previously because they used air shocks.
  • 2 1
 That 4/20 thing's going too far now...
  • 2 1
 Too few fork legs too many shocks
  • 1 1
 I have thought about this.It can give 2 different ratios for the damper and the coil.Interesting
  • 2 1
 Needs a 200mm Lefty DH to complete the madness.
  • 1 1
 Two shocks & half a fork. Give them some attention or I do not know what...
  • 1 0
 Can we expect a dual crown lefty to make this bike a proper mullet?
  • 1 0
 whys there an idler on it is my question.
  • 1 0
 Oh look, more things to service
  • 1 0
 And I can barely tune the fork correctly on my hardtail
  • 1 0
 ignore. accidental comment
  • 2 2
 Bender on Cannondale, will be riding this year Rampage
  • 3 4
 it's been done before, and it has been forgotten.... At the image of Canon'
  • 6 5
 That shit looks good.
  • 4 4
 Hope it's called the cannon
  • 2 2
 Version 2.0 with two remote levers
  • 3 3
 I've touched it......the bike too.
  • 4 4
 Scott and 1997 called, they want their ideas back....
  • 1 3
 Wouldn't the location of that triangle shock be in line for a direct hit from a rock and something. It just looks very exposed right there in the open
  • 2 0
 There is a cover over it, you can see it hanging down at the point they are measuring sag on the lower shock spring.
  • 2 2
 Oh dear hear they go again
  • 2 1
 It has doubly!
  • 2 2
 More shocks = more better!
  • 1 1
 This looks really cool. Wonder what it would feel like. I am two shocked!
  • 1 1
 I’m disappointed that neither of the two (or both) are pull shocks.
  • 1 1
 two in the front two in the back now need a pair more wheels....
  • 1 1
 It'd be great if the thumbnail photo was in the actual article
  • 1 2
 Pretty sure I’ll need Neil deGrasse to set my suspension up, endless possibilities
  • 2 1
 Why just why
  • 2 1
 Nice hair Jordi.
  • 1 1
 I’d love to see the patents.
  • 1 1
 Where is that test track?
  • 1 1
 Wow everyone is talking about 2stage and seem to forget about karpiel
  • 1 0
 Damn, shit happen dude.
  • 1 0
 CRACKNFAIL!Frown
  • 1 2
 Well now I have two shocks to buy..
  • 2 2
 Booya baby I two pair.
  • 2 3
 Not as good as two chains on Starling Sturn!
  • 3 4
 So what you're saying is that its twice as difficult to dial in.
  • 2 3
 8 inches in the rear? 3 way?
  • 2 3
 and where is superior to all forks lefty??
  • 1 2
 Are they planning to put some sort of cover over that thing?
  • 5 0
 Check the video at 3:02, there is a cover but it looks like it's removed for most of the photos to show off the damper in the down tube.
  • 5 2
 Nah, no cover, the engineer designed a bike allowing independent spring rate and damping adjustments to be made but completely overlooked popping a cover over the exposed shock, he will be over the moon that you have pointed that immense oversight to him.....
  • 2 3
 @justanotherusername: I mean, they made an entire fork and forgot the right half of it....
  • 2 4
 It's hard living up to a pedigree of the ugliest frankinbikes ever made but it looks like cannondale has done it again.
  • 1 2
 So two crappy fox shocks?
  • 1 1
 Here we go again
  • 1 2
 First they steal the right side of the fork, now they give us 2 shocks
  • 3 4
 Corsair crown?
  • 2 1
 not the same
  • 2 0
 @PaytonO was my first impression too.. seems like different design goals though. The 2nd shock on the corsair was backup for really big hits.
  • 3 2
 @esstinkay: of which I've never used....
  • 1 4
 What ever bike and shock you ride is useless unless it’s set up by Jordi Cortes
  • 3 6
 Imagine that, Cannondale with a god awful over engineered suspension design...
  • 2 4
 It will be funny when somebody wants to change the shocks. €€€ x2.
  • 1 3
 dang man, why they gotta be like that
  • 4 7
 Sorry Cannondale, Benotto did it first:

www.pinkbike.com/photo/17125718
  • 1 4
 what the shock!!
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