Update from Santa Cruz Bicycles, 12:20pm PST: Thanks for all the questions guys, sorry we weren't able to get to all of them. We've got to go break some frames now but we'll try to stop by again later to follow up on a few more.
Earlier today, Santa Cruz
released a video bike check with Danny Mac's brand new carbon trials bike and announced that they've taken the in-house composites lab at their California office, initially set up for their wheels program, to the next level. The custom frame for Danny Mac was first up, but you can bet they didn't create a new facility just for a one-off trials frame.
It's been a busy spring for the brand, having also released two new XC bikes:
the Blur and the
Highball.
We wanted to know more about their new carbon manufacturing capabilities and how they're influencing their overall manufacturing process, so we thought it would be a perfect opportunity for you to ask Joe Graney, Nic McCrae, Nick Anderson and Jack Russell your questions.
Joe Graney CEO and Former Head EngineerFormerly Santa Cruz’s head engineer, and author of Joe’s Corner (
link), Joe swapped CAD for spreadsheets in his new role as CEO, and still approved this whole project for some reason.
Nic McCrae Composites EngineerNic McCrae: Nic is Santa Cruz's resident Québécois, a composites expert, and the mad scientist lurking in the R&D lab. Oh, and he did all of the layup and manufacturing design on Danny's bike.
Nick Anderson Head EngineerNick's the Engineering Manager, and probably knows more about VPP suspension than anyone, but that was pretty useless for the trials bike. Fortunately, he knows a lot about frame design, too, and is responsible for some of the most iconic frame designs in Santa Cruz's history (including this one).
Jack Russell Industrial DesignerAs the Industrial Designer at Santa Cruz, Jack is in charge of making sure the bikes look as cool as possible, a real challenge on bike with tiny wheels and a 73.50° head tube angle.
How ‘Ask Us Anything' Works: Starting at 10:00 AM PDT/6:00 PM BST on April 3rd you can type your questions for Santa Cruz into the comment box below this article and the guys will have a crack at answering them. Sometimes your answer will pop up in a few seconds; others may take a few minutes while Joe Graney, Nic McCrae, Nick Anderson and Jack Russell work their way through questions that are popping up. Everyone who posts a question, large or small, will be taken seriously.
To make this go as smoothly as possible, try to follow these guidelines:
• Keep your questions relevant
• Stay focused and to keep your questions on one topic if possible. You can always ask about another item later
• Try to keep your questions to about 100 words
• Ask Us Anything is a service to PB readers who are seeking helpful information, not a forum to broadcast opinions or grievances. If you do have an issue that you want to ask about, no worries, just keep your complaints relevant and in the context of a question so that it can be addressed in a productive manner
• Use propping to acknowledge good (or not so good) questions and bump them up or down to where they belong
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MENTIONS: @santacruzbicycles
NA
+1 Jhou (Mar 10, 2014 at 23:50)
Better than that stupid Swat idea from Specialized. They make awesome bikes, but that has to be one of the most retarded idea ever!
How times change... Not too long ago it seemed that if it wasn't an aluminum 26er, it wasn't a true bike.
In short, Danny took his budget and cos he does more youtube promo stuff you made the wise choice. Can’t blame you.
Thanks for the sick bikes!
Love my N4.
Because it rattles like hell?
Becuase it makes the frame weaker?
Because "better carry the weight on the body (i.e. backpack) than on the bike"?
Because it is one more thing to break?
Because lots of people have more than one bike but only one tool kit?
All the EWS and XCO pros do not use it at all (except for interviews photoshoots).
Turns out the place where he works doesn't deal with titanium billet, just the sheet metal form. Lots of aluminum billet though apparently.
Also, do you think tapered roller bearings would be more suitable for the lower bearing in a headset?
NA
So 1.000.000 $,
aron alone gets paid 900.000 by it right? ( but I assume then he pays for the team budged)
Would be easyer just to be able to fit a water bottle
NM
Long live Waki!!! :-)
More of your art please sir, it’s inspirational!
Oh yes, that’s right. NORMAL animals don’t give a f*ck!! Lol
Check the honey badger. He ma man! :-F
That is all,
Thanks.
Is there a way to work a way up or any advice? It's definitely something I'd like to do in the future.
Thanks.
Thanks for the reply, certainly very helpful. Makes it seem feasible for us mere mortals to work somewhere so prestigious one day.
classroom.materials.ac.uk/images/heli-fig3.jpg
In this video previously featured on Pinkbike (www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5eMMf11uhM) stress tests are performed on carbon frames vs aluminium, obstensibly to test which is stronger.
I have a question for Joe, or anyone else, that I've had in my mind since watching this video nearly six years ago.
In the video during the "case" test, the aluminium frame buckles at a peak load of 1,464lbs (about 1:06 vid time), the carbon frame fails at a peak load of 2,050lbs (about 2:13 vid time).
However, in the run up to failure some sickening cracking noises can be heard on the carbon frame from about 800lbs onwards. Would this frame still be considered safe to ride if the test were stopped before failure?
-JG
Not sure if you have ever laid up frames with optical load sensors laminated in, but this would give a very good indication of the localized stresses in real world use.
Why are there no new videos of testing frames? I loved the video and it made me trust more in Santa Cruz frames. Especially that you made these tests public.
As for ignoring the cracking sounds during the testing... Hm. that usually indicates that the resin is letting go somewhere. Could be because of too much wetting in the pre-preg material, or it could be genuine delamination of the layup.Either way, you aren't likely to put that stress on your frame under normal riding conditions.
(random guy named)
Mike
NM
With a revelation? There is no benefit in buying Santa Cruz over orbea,YT etc etc.
If you’re looking for the cheapest possible frame to hang some nice parts off of, there’s better options out there. Used, consumer direct, year end models, etc. I’ve used all of them before. At this point though, I’m pretty sure that if I’d started out by shelling out $$$ at my local shop to get a bike from them in the first place (instead of going through pinkbike) and go through the year of free service they provide, I would have had a much better running bike to ride on and more mechanical skill to boot. Getting a YT, canyon, etc which might come with a toolkit and having them leave it mostly up to you and YouTube to wrench on it is the drawback of cutting out the middleman here.
There’s obviously not “no benefit” or else everyone would buy the cheapest, best specced YT they could get their hands on and that’d be the end of it.
free service is only true if there is actually a spot close to you
Thanks guys! You build the radest s**t!!!
we've read his interview here on PB and his words on being forced to leave the conpany, it'd be interesting to hear SC's point of view.
- Regarding the design of the CFRP lay up of a rim, what are the specific load cases you design for?
- What safety factors are used?
I realize that these questions probably will go unanswered since they are more or less company secrets, but I'd thought it would be fun to ask in order to compare to other industries.
Possible answers from the room include:
Taqueria Santa Cruz; La Cabana's California Burrito; No good burritos in Santa Cruz; Moreno's; Los Pericos; Salsa's.
And I wont ask you about coffee because youve got one of the best roasters in the country in your old building. Verve is great
As a engineering student in Australia, with a relatively small industry for bicycle specific production/design, internships are not exactly easy to come by.
Awesome to see so much R&D into composite materials.
It's I have ridden and owned your vpp and it does preform better, but I love the feeling of a single pivot and years of no nonsense riding!
PS- Do you still have the man-bun?
I am curious about what software SC uses though
www.pantone.com/fashion-color-trend-report-new-york-spring-2018
and decides how to put it on a bike, makes a nice presentation, everyone nods approvingly.
For me this is the biggest bit of BS in the whole marketing / trend thing.
What's the best trail in Santa Cruz (the town)? Is there a specific trail you use to test designs or shoot promos? I visited once, but only rode Demo Forest, since I think a lot of the good trails aren't official. Braille trail was dope
advocacy and are a big sponsor of MBOSC, the local trail work group for Santa Cruz,CA. They also just donated two bad ass “Firetower” bikes to help repair trails damaged in Santa Rosa & Santa Barbara. Thanks for the love guys!
-Tory in Santa Barbara
that a bike with a more or less progressive curve will be able to handle more gnarlyness, but lately, brands such as Mondraker, with the Foxy, seems to move from a progressive curve to a more linear one. It would be great if you could share your viewpoints on these matters.
I don’t know loved the interview on Vital!
On a very positive note, I would say that Santa Cruz's carbon-fiber bikes have a (well deserved) reputation for durability. Long lasting frames are greener frames, as evidenced by the 2016 SC5010CC which I just sold to a 14 year-old high school mtb racer. I expect this frame will see a long continued life span with it's proud 2nd owner.
NM
is there a high demand of well trained individuals with experience in R+D, and what qualities and expertieses are most sought after?
is santa cruz offering any support to people who would like to follow such a career path?
Thanks!
Or will you always be a boutique brand?
What are the enviromental tradeoffs/impact for using so much carbon in the cycling industry?
I think Santa Cruz isn’t even the biggest offender in this case, since at least they offer multiple grades of carbon to hit different price points. And speaking of carbon, at least SC recycles theirs.
I am a lighter rider and am having trouble with my 2016 5010 DPS EVOL rear shock being harsh and chattery on high speed sections. With volume spacers, I've found a happy medium for small bump compliance and bottoming resistance...but cant seem to fix the harshness on high speed downhill sections.
I dearly love mine (2015), but would love a bit longer reach, steeper seat tube angle and/or an XXL to be more central
on the bike with easier climbing position - but don’t really wanna buy anything from anyone else. I’m guessing a Bronson3 would utilise the Nomad4 linkage and maybe go a half/degree slacker too? This would be the dream bike. Thanks!
I'm currently in college looking to go into business marketing and management and was wondering what's the best way to make my way to a job in Santa Cruz Bikes? I'm pursuing business with intentions in working for a bike company and want to work for someone who makes some of the best bikes in the world(since I am an avid rider, I want to have good lunch rides ). Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated! @Santacruzbikes
With 26” wheels for those of us who just can’t get along with bigger wheels? My current TRC is getting up there in age. Seriously I’ve tried the Big wheel bikes and I just don’t like them and I’m not the only one.
Question 2: I understand that the population of Canada is roughly that of California's and that the mountain bike market here is vastly smaller, but is Santa Cruz planning on doing something, anything really, to address the issues it's facing in the Canadian market? Your distribution up here sucks, your shipping sucks, the issues surrounding duties suck, etc etc etc. Sure, your sales staff actually answers the phone and as such could teach Transition a thing or two, but are sales up here really so low that they couldn't support proper Canadian-based distribution? I know the Canadian $ price list was a big deal and quite welcome by dealers up here, but is that really the best you can do????
To the Canada question, we’ve been spending a lot of time dedicated to Canada in the past few years as we realize that, while smaller than the US market, it’s still an important part of the North American mountain bIke market. We now have a sales and marketing team focused Canada so expect to see more presence and support up North.
Does your answer to the Canada question mean that shops can expect better cost pricing than "USD + conversion" at some point in the near future? This would be helpful in seeing slightly more reasonable retail pricing in Canada, which would do wonders in increasing sales up here. There are legit differences in ride and consumer support that can account for a bit of a cost increase over a Trek, Giant, etc, but it's really hard for most buyers to swallow when the upfront cost is sky-high.
that seems like an oddly aggressive response to what is a pretty reasonable answer.....
Results would be better pricing and margin for Canadian shops, better retail pricing for Canadian riders and more market share for Santa Cruz. Win/win/win.
Answer: "Santa Cruz is a product-driven company and our development cycles aren’t hindered by the constraints of selling seasons. We aim to bring new products to market when they are ready, which isn’t always an ideal time, but rather than postponing a product for months to sync with seasonality we want to get the raddest bikes to the market as soon as possible." - Corporate speak for "We release bikes when they're ready"
Yeah I'm gonna call that out. Polite as it may be, it's still nothing more than "We release bikes when they're ready."
and all these things fall under the response of "we release bikes when theyre ready". its not a copout. its just the truth.
I suppose if the bike is "ready" to be released in October, they can hold onto the bikes, and have a ton of inventory carrying costs and wasted warehouse space holding onto a bunch of frames because it doesnt fall at the right time of year. then 3 months later, they can release the bike and please you.... since @joegraney is reading this thread, let me be the first to suggest that to him.
What sets them apart is a balanced ride feel (not too stiff, not too flexy), lifetime warranty, and all Reserve wheels are built by pro wheelbuilders and riders here in Santa Cruz.
NM
Thanks,
Jared
Any suggestions on how I can keep my zerks from popping out? Lower link seems fine. Hate to replace just for that.
Any chance you'll bring back paint color options? Color choices in the past few years have been a bummer.
-Thanks SC
It’s like your bikes are phenomenal in bed with the lights off, but then in the morning it’s like “hmmm... sure as hell looked cuter last night in the bar”.
Is the pared-down, minimalistic, arguably boring look of Santa Cruz MTBs more a result of form following function? Or is the vanilla flavored banality of the MTB lineup an actual aesthetic goal as vigorously pursued as the performance of your bikes?
With the new lab, are you still building aluminum test mules during development or are you going carbon straight away ?
Do you think rapid protytyping or additive manufacturing could help building carbon mules quicker ?
NM
Is the Nomad 4 the final production version of the Driver 8? A glorious free-ride bike!
NM
Are there any plans to develop the chameleon further(slacker ht, steeper st, longer reach etc)?
By the way the purple on the new highball is rad....
I ride 29er for XC and them jump on my 27.5 for trail/jump/park. would be nice to have that in a single bike.
2. If the Fox Float is boost, should the rear hub changed with hub boost also?
Thanks.
If so, can you give a hint as to the timetable for its release?
Also, what is your opinion on outfitting a BroMad (Bronson Nomad love-child), vs. a Hightower LT?
Do you plan to move back manufacturing to the US with your new facility? Or at least, building all prototypes in house?
I just could never understand how it wouldn't get stuck inside the frame.
cheers guys
So Alu options for: Nomad, Bronson, 5010, Tallboy, Chameleon, and Jackal. Not too bad, really. 50% of their bikes in Alu is definitely better than I thought.
I think the HT and HTLT are what folks are really looking for in Alu next.
NA
Are the alloy wheelsets that ship with your build kits also assembled in the U.S?
Fork: 600g.
Complete Bike weight: 9.6kg (21.0Lbs), which nets out to somewhere around four pounds lighter than his aluminum bikes.
NM
do it. sell us the thing.
I know that's not a question.
I don't need a chameleon built with basic parts.
I know even your employees squabble of the blem frames.
-Your friendly neighbor
Chameleon A - $749 USD
Do you have any plans to make the reserve rims available for purchase or even offer a non boost option for the wheels?
Is SC (and most others) steering buyers to full builds ?
Were N4 29er test mules ridden?
Chainstay, BB rise,Wheelbase reach ...
Thanks,
Dylan
Please and thanks
Seriously, the only people who ride santa cruz's are sponsored athletes and more-money-than-sense posers.
I'm just building up a Chameleon myself to replace a big brand mid range trail bike that has turned into an unreliable money pit. It's actually fairly decent value compared to other do-it-all hardtails, especially as I get to choose all the components and use sensible stuff I know is cost effective and maintainable in my usual riding conditions (mud and gritstone)
For what it's worth, I've also seen 6 Capra owners come into my local shop, the same one they cut out of their transaction by going consumer direct, asking for a "quick brake bleed" or "just a quick cable" for free. 1 walked out, 2 threw tantrums about the cost of service, and 3 just shrugged and ended up paying.
And there in lies the problem. The mark up on bikes is very high. If a consumer can get a price break, why shouldn't they? Bike shops should realize this and try to monetize service over bikes. I can't imagine they are making a ton on bikes anyway.
here local shops pretty much never sell bikes, especially new ones
they are profitable on services and parts (most of them are online too)
Do you drive down from Poulsbo to EVO to get your bike worked on? I doubt it so using your local shop and their mark up for this comparison would probably be a better bet.
Suppliers buy in bulk. Shimano clears old or overstock inventory out online for cheaper than shops can buy it.
Online retailers often won’t take a loss on a bike, but will take the last few of a bike...xs, old models, one or two left in stock and sell them at their (lower) cost or make them into a loss leader to get more website hits. When it’s a race to the bottom pricewise, online sites need to balance what their margins are and how much of a discount they can give people to get their business and stay alive. This is why giants like pricepoint can still fail.
“The markup on bikes is very high” isn’t going to work in the same sentence on “I can’t imagine they’re making much on bikes anyways”. What do you think, that a bike shop sells 1 bike a week at a massive markup and that’s how they survive? Service sure isn’t the answer either...while the margin is high because mechanics don’t make jack, it simply isn’t enough money per hour to keep a storefront open, unless one shop has monopoly over a single city
Don’t talk about things you clearly don’t know about, or you’re just going to get negged into oblivion...30% off means you’re still getting fleeced by EVO. At that number, they make the same amount of profit $$ that your local shop does selling at MSRP on a lot of items.
as an aside, my bro bought a chinese catalog carbon bike, his fork collapsed ripping through an intersection. fortunately he was only scraped and bruised. I'm also a big fan of Giants carbon program, world class from start to finish.
Your comment about research and buying a lightly used bike is definitely sound but I can tell you from personal experience used bikes aren't always what they seem. Some people suck and will tell plenty of lies about a bikes condition and use.
Whether buying new or used my preference is still aluminum or steel. We trust our lives to these machines and if I'm going to go down hard I would prefer it was my mistake rather than equipment failure.
Would you consider slowing down the colour changing process once you have found a good colour ?