CeramicSpeed is Crowd Funding Its Driven Chainless Drivetrain
CeramicSpeed, a company best known for its drivetrain accessories, is offering riders the chance to back its Driven chainless drivetrain concept to bring it to market.
In 2018, the brand first introduced the concept of its chainless drivetrain as a single speed only at Eurobike, then in 2019 it showed off a mountain bike design that included a telescoping driveshaft to solve the problems presented by rear suspension.
In simple terms, the cassette and chainring on the drivetrain are in the same place you'd expect but the teeth are perpendicular to a traditional setup. The big difference is that the chain is replaced by a carbon-fiber driveshaft with a roller pinion on each end that engages those teeth. The design was created alongside the University of Colorado Mechanical Engineering Department and it is claimed to offer 99% efficiency alongside being more aerodynamic, cheaper to produce and less complex than a traditional drivetrain all while being fully enclosed. CeramicSpeed described it as having the benefits of a gearbox with none of the drag that comes along with it.
Of course, the drivetrain comes with a number of downsides too. The biggest is that the rear triangle of a bike has to be redesigned to accommodate it and the system will only work on a bike where the pivot is above the axle, on something like a Horst link bike this simply wouldn't be possible. Finally, we also never saw a shifting version of the mountain bike set up, it was only running as a singlespeed only at the brand's Eurobike stand.
In the two years since we last saw the concept, CeramicSpeed has apparently continued working on the design and has spun off Driven into a new company, Driven Technologies Inc. It is now offering riders a chance to own a slice of a pie and help bring the product to market via crowdfunding. Jason Smith, Driven's CEO, told Cycling Tips, "We realized we needed to continue the development of Driven, but we couldn’t put all of the eggs – as in CeramicSpeed R&D dollars – into the Driven basket. This is where CeramicSpeed made the decision to carve out ownership of Driven to assist with development funding."
Driven is hoping to raise a minimum of $300,000 up to a maximum $1 million from investors with investments in the project starting at $1,000. For that money, you don't get rewards, as in other crowdfunding ventures, but you will play the role of an angel investor and will receive equity-based convertible notes, with the hope the project will grow and increase the value of your investment.
If Driven accrues $300,000 of investment, it is expecting to cover six to nine months of research and development operations before another round of funding would be required. Meanwhile, if the maximum figure is raised then the company expects to have enough funding to see the product through to manufacturing. Either way, the company expects its value to increase as the timeline progresses.
Of course, no investment comes without a level of risk and there's no guarantee your investment will grow. It's also worth noting that Driven is expecting it won't have a product until 2023 and there's no mention of the mountain bike drivetrain in any of the press materials - if you do invest, you could simply be helping a triathlete have a fancy drivetrain in 18 months time.
Martin Banke, Executive Vice President of CeramicSpeed, said: “I’m immensely proud of how far we at CeramicSpeed, Jason, and his small group of creative engineers have been able to develop Driven in such a short period of time. It’s been deeply meaningful to be involved in the fruition of such a revolutionary idea since innovation is at the center of every thought and process we carry out. Now, as Driven enters its final stages of development it needs a bigger scale of production to be finalized, so it’s only natural that we get other parties on board to help drive the development forward. CeramicSpeed will always be a part of Driven as I truly believe it will become the benchmark within drivetrain technology”.
The seed funding is first-come, first-served. The offering is first being promoted to those in the cycling world, and will then be opened up to SeedInvest’s user base. You can learn more here.
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Get bent Ceramic Speed.
In contrast, gear boxes - despite their maturity, do not deliver on their undisputed advantages at a price point (and weight) that would make them a compelling alternative to the "good enough" chain/derailleur drivetrain.
The weight issue could be resolved if you marketed them to something not caring about weight. E-bikes and downhill bikes are good examples where the heavier weight would not be a big deal.
Also, the bike market isn't that sensitive to price point when you consider that bikes costing more than $10k are fairly common. A bigger issue is that a derailleur bike frame is incompatible with a pinion bike frame. I can't convert my derailleur bike even if I wanted to.
It would be interesting if shimano and brose sold an e-bike motor with an integrated gearbox in the same form factor.
Not a good capitalist as he is somtimes portrayed.
I don’t know why everyone commenting on Pb is so hell bent on “proving” everyone else wrong. Opinions used to be welcome.
This could be great and a big improvement for all forms of racing
One less thing on the bike for the possibility of failure
Gettin rid of that archaic old failed rear derailleur
Shimano is gonna be pissed and so is SRAM
If they go out of business I don't give a damn
They missed out on an opportunity
By sticking with outdated technology
It's not exactly a sealed gearbox I was hoping for
But it's a step in the right direction and a promising door
Let's finally kill the rear derailleur and let it be
I hope this doesn't end up in the hands of YT
The only other thing that I have to say
Is they should name it after me: DCA
It might seem cool and all, but it's impractical and worse than the current standard out there (mechs)
Also, synchronization is a PITA on all accounts with that disposition.
But like you said - it is brilliant thinking. Hopefully they can prove us wrong.
I wonder what happens when a grain of dirt lands in that thing though?
And then there is the bending torque of the cassette. No way is that thing stiff enough to not bend away once there is any torque on the drive shaft.
All in all just a stupid concept.
Pity the Russians showed it off fist at eurobike 1899
www.pinterest.ie/pin/822399581932935849
This thingy doesn't have a chance with them
Say the chubby doofus riding to the coffee shop once a week ready to throw down for the local KOM of apple pie eating. He doesn't do any work himself other than lubing his chain after every single ride, naturally
Sure, maybe you could get this to work, but the simplest method has been in use for a hundred plus years.
I could burn 6 or 7k on new bike with electronic shifting and discs brakes but since I don't race and I ride mostly in the same group of riders my Strava feed would look exactly the same. Ok, my Instagram would benefit a bit.
On mtb after 3 years you are ready to start searching for something new, but road bikr can last forever
With carbon rims, it depends on how the braking track is manufactured, what pads are used, and the weather. Perfect pads and perfect wheels are acceptable in the wet, barely. Shitty carbon rims and/or shitty pads are absolutely death in the wet. I separated my shoulder in a road race due to fresh pavement, shitty Reynolds carbon rims, and rain. No brake, no brake, no brake, all the brake, crash.
I've also tried carbon rims and canti brakes for cyclocross. Fine in the dry, but not many dry CX races in the northeast... that experiment ended quickly.
It shifts now? Cool.
It's got a shield now? Great.
Would the "cassette" NOT flex and spit the bearing the first time I stood and mashed? No way.
Would the tiny bearings stand up to the slightest bit of rain or even road grime? Nope.
Want my money to continue development? The f*ck outta here.
And sure there are a few 10kg overweight roadies with CS products (good on them btw, do whatever the heck makes you happy) but they're also absolutely huge in the tri scene and a ton of super fast riders chasing seconds run their stuff.
Regarding the dirt argument about Driven, they've already made a magnetic snap-on cover for the rear cluster which will keep it cleaner than any traditional system and they're also working on a wireless shifting system hidden inside the drive shaft. No, it can't yet shift the full range or function under full load, but who knows how it goes if they get to work on it a few more years.
Each to their own but I sure enjoy seeing weird and wild super expensive motorsport tech even if I'll never have it in my own daily driver of a car. Same thing with this.
Tech in motorsports doesn’t exist unless it actually works. This doesn’t even function properly let alone solve a problem or improve upon an existing system. It’s just different and awful
So I would say the same thing no matter what brand was behind this. It's a cool piece of tech and if they can make it work - good for them and for whoever wants to get a bike with it. If there actually is a 3% aero gain from this and someone deems that worth spending on, to some it will still be snake oil but the person paying can be fully aware it's just 3% at a steep price and feel that's okay. Or maybe 10-15 years from now there's a good value alu/steel option, well sealed and perfect for a commuter instead of traditional/internal - I don't know but that's my point, if it works in the end and people want it then why not.
And I'm sure there are plenty of examples from motorsports/cars that didn't work out in the end or that took quite a few years to develop and actually put it in production. It's part of the game. I'll be the first to admit I've bought expensive bike stuff that didn't work well at all, yet here I am still excited about bikes.
Here is something i wrote about snake speed years ago:
“1. the pinion bearings (the little ones) will have a tiny axial load rating. much much less than the main shaft bearings even though they are subject to the same forces. the separation forces caused by load will wear those bearings in no time at all.
2. the rigidity of the shaft main bearing housings and the size of the shaft bearings needed to keep the "gears" in mesh would negate any claimed effiencency.
3. the seal friction on the main shaft bearings adds to the the equation.
4. the lack of seals on the pinion bearings will soon invite dust and dirt leading to premature wear.
5. adding seals to these bearings will add friction to the system adding to the equation again.
6. ball or roller bearings require a certain amount of rotation for the balls to actually start rotating under load. before this they are sliding on the bearing races. the pinion bearings are only making small and interrupted movements with each tooth engagement. this will lead to increased bearing wear.
7. The rear pinion bearings are installed in single shear. this will provide lower rigidity making it harder to maintain gear mesh under separation loads
8. The larger "cassette" gears provide a longer leverage for seperationn forces to deform the cassette. To maintain rigidity each larger gear needs to be of heavier construction than the previous.
9. His idea of switching out pinion sizes to change overall gearing isn't so easy as he explains. those pinion changes would require lateral position change of either the shaft or the mating gears to maintain correct (or any) gear mesh.
10. the single tooth engagement places massive loads on that single tooth leading to higher tooth wear and possibly total tooth failure.
11. over time the rear pinion sliding drive spline (required for gear changes) will wear and develop both play and backlash. the play will make the rigidity required for gear mesh worse.
12. tooth wear will create back lash in the the system. combined their will be four stages of drive delay on commencing peddling a: freewheel hub pawls b:front pinion to gear c: rear pinion to gear d: rear pinion spline interface. could it be possible to have as much as 1/2 turn of the cranks before drive engagement on a worn system?
13. The axial load or separation forces generated at both ends puts side load on the bottom bracket bearings and the rear axle bearings. Not so bad for the rear axle bearings if they are angular contact bearings (though most now spec deep groove bearings) but its extra side load for the deep groove bearings in the bb. this will lead to faster wear of these bearings. This load will increase friction with in these bearings also. Also the preload on these bearings will need to be exact (maximum recommended by the manufacturer) to maintain system rigidity to maintain gear mesh.
14. gear mesh needs to be carefully setup and maintained as the system wears. too little mesh and the toe (tip of the gear) receives all the load and backlash increases. Too much mesh and the bearing pushes into the heal of the tooth creating load on all bearings int the system leading to premature wear.
15. His argument seems to be based on friction area (8 sliding points vs 2 rotating points). There is no area component to the friction equation, only force and coefficient of the materials involved.
16. There is going to be a hell of a lot going on in the twisting, bending and harmonics of the shaft under high load and speed that is too much to write about here.”
Here's a crazy idea: we give a company some money and get products in return.
Ceramic speed is not some new startup that needs to raise capital to get going and even if they were, how about finding actual investment funds or a good old fashioned loan. This is an established company selling high margin products and them "crowdfunding" anything is insulting.
@gkeele Exactly this. It's not good enough even for Ceramic speed themselves to invest in. It's too risky to fund with a bank loan. It's sure as hell not good for investment firms to take a stab at - I bet my left nut they tried. So what do we do? We sell fairy tales to the small Average Joe and keep our fingers crossed that unlike pro investors he's naive enough to risk his savings. Oh, it'll hurt Joe relatively more when he loses? f*ck Joe, right?
Nobody should waste money on this. It should speak volumes that CeramicSpeed is not willing to risk their core business on this venture, and no industry partner has shown any interest.
CeramicSpeed has been flogging this concept for years, and still don't have a prototype capable of withstanding even the weakest human power, and they never, ever will.
-No small industrial bearing in existence is capable of withstanding the forces required to act as a roller between the shaft and the 'cassette'.
-The cassette is impossibly under-built to withstand the axial load of said roller bearing attempting to skip teeth.
-Rectifying those simple issues will negate any supposed weight or friction advantage, while remaining seriously compromised in longevity.
Shaft-driven bicycles and motorcycles have existed for a century, but have never achieved the performance of chain-driven competitors, even with fully sealed assembles, and perfectly machined, hardened-steel angle gears. While it could be argued that the cycling industry does not have a history of investing in driveshafts as a performance option, motorcycles have, and the technology is only viable on slow city scooters, and heavy, powerful cruisers where the weight and efficiency problems are less noticeable.
Outside the cycle industry, trillions of dollars and have been spend on shaft and gear technology since... 300 BC. Nowhere in recorded history has a similar mechanism as fragile and under-built as CeramicSpeed's "Driven" concept come anywhere near to withstanding more than a few pounds of force.
Ask yourself- How can a simple mechanism, produced out of soft alloy and resin defy physics and history? This is not computing. There is no 'Moore's Law'. The basic chain-drive displayed all the same performance advantages in 1900 as it does today. While there is still some room for bicycle drivetrain optimization, it has been diminishing returns since the 1970s. Any serious bicycle drivetrain progress (if possible) will come from established industrial giants. Think Bosch, Mahle, Shimano, etc. Not a small company that sells overpriced derailleur pulleys.
I just wanted to say I am an avid fan of your instagram, and I'm looking forward to your latest build! It's shaping up to be quite stunning.
This concept is not new as others said, just usage of some fanzy materials and parts. This is nothing else than marketing for some crazy expensive parts, that may (I don´t think may) not even deliver the claimed benefits. But lets´s get to the technical stuff, that will hopefully burry this concept for most of you (Sorry for the non technical people):
Bearings will fail instantly. I tried to do this at the eurobike, but the guys from ceramic speed seemed to know what I wanted to do
- The SKF W605 bearing can handle a dynamic load of 761N (In this case you should even use static 260N)
- If you take 250Nm of torque (A 80-90kg rider can easily generate more) this will still be 2380N with a 52t chainring
- 761N vs 2380N. poof --> instant fail
The chainring and cassette will wear (even with perfect lubrication) really really fast, because:
- The roller of a chain gets in contact with a tooth and sits their until it runs out. The movement and thus friction/wear is manily in the chainlinks that are rotating to each other at run in and run out
- At this concept the bearing will constanty rub (movement rectangular to the load direction) on the loaded tooth. Which will wear the tooth and the outside of the bearing pretty fast
slaps forehead. I didn't even consider that. Both of your points are a deal breaker.
I think the biggest part of this design that screams "scam" to me is that they made a mockup (I won't even call it a prototype because it doesn't even work) using high grade bling materials. Nobody intent on design dev does mockups using custom carbon fiber parts, total waste of money.
Two words:
Energy Loss.
Driveshafts suffer from horrible losses, this is also why the power in cars is different on wheels vs from the engine.
There's going to be a lot of stress on those little arms that hold the rollers.
Cassettes are going to cost $1000
There are four wear parts - chain ring, chain ring roller set, sprockets, sprocket roller set. A chain drive has three, and new chains are $30.
As a software engineer with a background working for many early stage, seed/Series-A round, etc. This is hilarious! It's like that recruiter trying to get you to come work for a company with a shitty product that is "disrupting the industry" (when they're not and they know it) and they can only offer "equity based" competitive salary. So what's X shares worth when the value of the stock is $0 p/share?
this thing reminds me of that.
Sounds a lot like a Ponzi scheme to me. Bruce Boone gave me some sexy Cranx to fund his next project. Seems like a much more legitimate way to run business
I'm out.
Me: Looks cool, I want it.
CeramicSpeed: That'll be $4999.99.
Me: For that reason, I'm out
It is different, but better?
With all the nay-saying, I hope that they will crush it and come up with a working solution!
“What a Maroge”