Burning Question: How Much Do Water Bottles Influence Frame Design?
"Can you fit a water bottle in that frame?" is one of the most frequently asked questions I overhear at trailheads and see in the comments sections of Pinkbike articles when the plastic vessel is absent on a bike. "Should a standard water bottle fit?" might be the more appropriate question manufacturers and consumers alike should be asking. Sure, hydration is essential, but longer rides require you to carry a pack or resort to overstuffed chamois pockets regardless of the frame storage. Henry Quinney asked the Pinkbike audience their take on the importance of water bottle capacity and its influence on purchasing a bike back in January of this year.
Think back to Yeti's SB66, a proven EWS race winner and popular long travel enduro bike, which only had mounting bolts under the downtube, and compare that to their SB150. Yeti specifically built the bike around its ability to carry a bottle inside the front triangle and then configured their Switch Infinity suspension design. To squeeze everything in there, the bottle runs tight to the shock and downtube took two drastic bends to get around the dilemma.
Dual link and 4-bar designs like Santa Cruz, Kona, Transition, Norco, and Specialized (the list goes on and on) have it easy, or do they? Trek's design team was challenged to fit a standard 650ml water bottle inside the front triangle on the smaller size Top Fuels, so they curved the top tube to avoid jacking the standover height.
They don't come any larger than this! Even XXL Geometron owners have to get creative as the swing link moves the shock in the front triangle.
Single-pivot simplicity sorted.
So, why not just lay out your suspension first, sculpt the tube shapes, and form your own water bottle? How vital is it to have a standard water bottle that costs five dollars when the entire bike can cost upwards of five figures? Why is a bottle with a flip-top cap under the downtube unacceptable? Are mountain bikers' priorities straight or are we too concerned about appearance? Is a cheap, standard size water bottle housed inside the front triangle more important than the correct pivot placement?
We reached out to a few brands to see how they approach designing a frame with storage in mind and what kind of constraints they prioritize.
Chris Cocalis - President/CEO of Pivot Cycles
How much do water bottles actually influence frame design?
Massively! It is definitely a top priority.
Could you speak to why or why not your brand has made this such a priority?
Although hip bags and hydration packs are still important for longer rides, the customer preference has definitely shifted from carrying things on their body to carrying as much as possible on the bike. For customers, being able to carry a water bottle has moved from not so important to near the top of their list.
If your brand has made it a priority, at what lengths did you have to go to in order to work around the packaging constraints, ie: changing geometry like standover height, downtube angles or tube shaping, and possibly kinematics?
It was a key driver in changing our designs completely from having shocks located under the top tube to a vertical shock design. Of course there were other factors involved as to how and why we could improve our overall design with this change. However, the combination of water bottle, increased tool storage placement and stand-over were leading factors.
It is something that we will continue to focus on. We want to try and find even better solutions and/or more capacity in the future.
The previous generation Firebird had water bottle storage underneath the downtube, but the 2022 Firebird has been reconfigured to follow the suspension layout of Pivot's shorter travel bikes.
Have you ever thought of creating your own proprietary water bottle, like YT has done in the past? Why is there such resistance to this if the frame could be built with less complication?
Absolutely! Although water bottles have typically been thought of as a universal size and a somewhat disposable item, I do think that the possibility exists to do something unique that better takes into account modern mountain bikes chassis dimensions and constraints while offering good capacity and ease of use.
Frame storage, either internal or external, is a hot selling feature right now. Do you see this as a necessity, like water bottle storage?
It’s not quite the same necessity as water bottle storage, but a really nice thing to have. With internal frame storage, there’s really a decision to be made between the balance of the frame's structural integrity and weight. From Pivot’s side, we always want to optimize the frame structure, plus we want to have great tool accessibility and ease of use. If you need a tool, having it on the bike is great but if you have to take time to get it out and unwrap everything to get at it and/or assemble the tool then it really loses that efficiency. That’s why we have the Pivot dock tool system. We have different options that work with mounts on the frame which allows us to develop different tools and different external storage options that are quiet, secure and really easy to use.
If so, how much time do engineers and product managers put into building this and what are the major limitations?
Just like water bottle access, it’s an important part of the design process to fit everything on the frame, account for future tool options and to make sure the rider has everything they typically carry for on-trail repairs and adjustments. If you can only get 90% of it onto the bike and wind up having to still carry a few things, it kind of defeats the purpose. Major limitations are always space and clearance issues with other parts. This is always worse on the smallest frames so we optimize for those first.
Dylan Howes - Trek Senior MTB Engineer Bikes
How much do water bottles actually influence frame design?
A ton! For most bikes (with exceptions like DH or DJ), a water bottle is a necessity. It’s just something we must have on a bike. A trail bike without capacity for a bottle has an unfinished design, and under the downtube doesn’t count! A bottle covered in mud, or worse, that you have to clean off before use, isn’t really functional. So viewing a water bottle as a simple design necessity certainly dictates a whole lot of other things and how everything can be packaged within a frame – and by “everything” we mean a shock, maximized seat post insertion, functional sized tubes, standover limits and these days, storage.
Could you speak to why or why not your brand has made this such a priority?
We need water as riders and humans. Yes, you can use a pack. But we don’t always want to. For that lunch ride, or quick after-work loop, sometimes you just want a bottle and only a bottle. Also, our customers have made it pretty clear that a bottle is a primary concern and desire. When we’ve left that ability off in the past, or made small sizes without bottle capacity, we’ve heard about it loud and clear.
If your brand has made it a priority, at what lengths did you have to go to in order to work around the packaging constraints, ie: changing geometry like standover height, downtube angles or tube shaping, and possibly kinematics?
Kinematics is one thing we won’t compromise. If the kinematics are wrong, the bike doesn’t ride well. You can sometimes hide this with shock tuning, but the bike is still severely compromised. So this is not something we change. However, we will keep working and re-working the design to keep the kinematics we want and still make room for a bottle. Stand-over is something that often has to be balanced or compromised somewhat. In design, every aspect has some level of compromise, but we do work hard to get the best balance possible. Sometimes the standover target simply has to be a bit higher than ideal to fit a bottle. But again, we’ve heard about that from customers loud and clear over the years. And as dropper posts have helped lower the functional parts of the bike we standover, this has become a more willingly accepted compromise if it means a bottle fits.
We’ve manipulated tube shaping quite a bit to fit bottles. Indents on tubes and adjusting tube profiles is common. We’ve also done bikes where there are size specific tubes, especially on the smaller sizes that both look different and have different shapes from the rest of the sizes. We’re usually talking aluminum here as a carbon bike has a whole different mold anyway.
Have you ever thought of creating your own proprietary water bottle, like YT has done in the past? Why is there such resistance to this if the frame could be built with less complication?
We most certainly have. Although this isn’t an ideal solution. Custom bottles come with a whole host of other issues for the rider – where can new bottles be obtained, will a dealer have them in stock, what about lost bottles? Water bottles have been pretty much a standard size and shape for so long that pushing a new standard is a challenge. And again, this really should be a last resort. Just because someone is a shorter height doesn’t mean they need less water.
Frame storage, either internal or external, is a hot selling feature right now. Do you see this as a necessity, like water bottle storage?
It’s not quite the necessity that water is. However, we do believe in the benefit of storage, and see it becoming a much more demanded feature. Also, it’s a feature that has universal appeal so we’re working hard to include it on our entry-level alloy frames and higher-end carbon frames. Slash and Top Fuel both have storage on alloy frames.
If so, how much time do engineers and product managers put into building this and what are the major limitations?
This question alone could be a whole article! We’ve put in countless hours and continue to keep doing so in search of better and better solutions. Just *some* of the considerations are: placement within the frame, where the opening is, how the rider interacts with the opening, how is the bike positioned when interacting with the storage, how easy is it to reach the lever/opening mechanism, how easy is the mechanism to work, how robust is the mechanism, how secure does the mechanism have to be – does the mechanism just open a door? Or does it have to support a large weight such as a water bottle?, how will mud affect the door and mechanism, will mud clog it? How much does the storage weigh? How does the storage opening affect the frame strength? How do different storage locations affect the strength or stress caused by having a hole in a formerly closed “tube?” How much weight and material has to be added back to the frame to reinforce that opening and gain back both strength and stiffness lost by cutting that hole? What happens to all the cables that used to simply run through the space where the storage compartment is now? Remember the old adage of “Cheap, light, strong – pick 2”? This is more like “Cheap, light, strong, robust, easy to use – we want them all!”
Ken Perras - Product Line Manager at Rocky Mountain Bicycles
How much do water bottles actually influence frame design?
It holds a high degree of importance for all relevant platforms where the intended use cases defined during the product definition stage include the need for hydration.
Could you speak to why or why not your brand has made this such a priority?
We need to hydrate while we ride and wearing a hydration backpack isn’t always the best way to achieve this.
If your brand has made it a priority, at what lengths did you have to go to in order to work around the packaging constraints, ie: changing geometry like standover height, downtube angles or tube shaping, and possibly kinematics?
Water bottle placement doesn’t affect geometry as good geometry ranks higher than the ability to carry a bottle. Good kinematics also rank higher, as well as industrial design. Comparatively, the ability to carry a water bottle inside the frame tubes ranks lower, but the ranking score is still high. It’s important to recognize that it is better, in a commercial sense (driven by consumer choice) to create a well balanced design that satisfies all criteria rather than create a design that compromises too much on some criteria in favour of others. A good example of this would be the 2018-2021 Element, where industrial design was visibly compromised in order to satisfy the 2 bottle criteria. Fast forward to today, with more time, we were able to achieve a more polished version with the 2022 version. While including bottles on frames requires a detailed look, we include this spec from the onset, so the work to make it happen is reduced.
All the water bottles. Photo Credit: Dane Perras
Have you ever thought of creating your own proprietary water bottle, like YT has done in the past? Why is there such resistance to this if the frame could be built with less complication?
We have thought about it in the past. However, as our designs evolve we’ve learned to work with the current, most popular, bottle sizes. We prioritize having consumer friendly designs which means that we constantly seek to reduce proprietary components used on or with our bikes.
Frame storage, either internal or external, is a hot selling feature right now. Do you see this as a necessity, like water bottle storage?
A necessity, no. On-frame storage solutions are at a good place right now with the ability to carry ride essentials such as a spare tube, tool, puncture repair kit, and water. Having in-tube storage has some benefits such as the ability to carry your items in a sheltered space, and possibly increasing your carrying capacity, but it comes at a cost and weight penalty. This is not for everyone. Additionally, it should be noted that there are quite a few brands jumping onboard with in-tube storage solutions but we feel that they are hastily executed and not necessarily as useful as they can be, so the addition of one would be a net negative in this scenario.
One thing that external storage doesn’t work for is storing larger, irregular shaped items such as a jacket or spare gloves. These need to be kept clean and dry, so they need to be put in a frame bag, which most high performance MTBs won’t be able to accommodate, or inside the frame. This is where a well executed design will pay dividends for this common cycling scenario.
Finally kudos to Specialized for driving this innovation.
Julien Boulais - Brand and Product Marketing Director at Devinci Cycles
How much do water bottles actually influence frame design?
They are a deliverable of the project like many other criteria, such as tire clearance, chainring clearance, desired travel, etc. It is something that will influence the shock positioning and other key considerations in design just as much as any other criteria.
Could you speak to why or why not your brand has made this such a priority?
Drinking water is pretty high on the list of priority to stay alive, or simply to perform well while doing physical activity. Most people will see the majority of their rides fit within the ‘’one bottle of water’’ range and therefore it is a practical solution to pack less on the rider.
If your brand has made it a priority, at what lengths did you have to go to in order to work around the packaging constraints, ie: changing geometry like standover height, downtube angles or tube shaping, and possibly kinematics?
We would not prioritize water bottle fit vs function of the suspension system or the geometry, but so far we have always been able to get all the suspension characteristics and the geo we are looking for while still fitting the water bottle. Our Split Pivot suspension platform allows for that without unnecessary complications.
Have you ever thought of creating your own proprietary water bottle, like YT has done in the past? Why is there such resistance to this if the frame could be built with less complication?
We never saw the need because we have always been able to achieve what we were looking for while still fitting regular sized bottles, especially with side load bottle cage. It would not bring added benefit to our platform. Also, we think proprietary bottles are a good idea in theory but not practical in real life situations. For example, everyone already has a lot of regular sized bottles, they are cheap and you can get them anywhere. If you forget yours it’s easy to source another one. Let's save our ‘’proprietary’’ items for more useful topics. I think the bike industry has enough proprietary standards as it is.
Frame storage, either internal or external, is a hot selling feature right now. Do you see this as a necessity, like water bottle storage?
Definitely an interesting solution. Same logic of removing some of these items from the rider. Making sure you don’t forget them because they are always on the bike.
If so, how much time do engineers and product managers put into building this and what are the major limitations?
This one definitely requires more time than the water bottle fit. The biggest limitation would be navigating other brand’s patents to bring the best solution.
Nukeproof took a unique approach and cleverly used the void space in the downtube on the Giga to cradle a water bottle.
Specialized, the winner of on-board storage, changed the game with their SWAT box system. All frame sizes have room for a bottle inside the front triangle, plus you can store tools, snacks, and other items in the downtube.
Steve Saletnik - Trail and Gravity Product Manager at Specialized Bicycles
How much do water bottles actually influence frame design?
Water bottles are just one part of the balancing act when designing a bike. It’s not “free” to get a bottle inside the front triangle on a full suspension bike but our team views it as a necessity so it does influence our packaging and layout.
Could you speak to why or why not your brand has made this such a priority?
We like to talk to riders about what they value and having a full size bottle (or two, depending on the chassis) inside the front triangle is something riders almost universally agree on as a priority. There are not many scenarios like this in the mountain bike world. We can’t recall seeing any Pinkbike comments hating on water bottles on bikes, so this is an easy call for our team to make.
If your brand has made it a priority, at what lengths did you have to go to in order to work around the packaging constraints, ie: changing geometry like standover height, downtube angles or tube shaping, and possibly kinematics?
Ride quality is our top priority so we start with our desired kinematic hardpoints and then our engineers and designers work together to Tetris in the rest from there. Every frame layout and size is different and how the priorities stack up from there changes by the project. Things can get pretty heated debating the best way to do it but it’s all driven by trying to achieve the perfect blend for the riders.
Have you ever thought of creating your own proprietary water bottle, like YT has done in the past? Why is there such resistance to this if the frame could be built with less complication?
Our side loading water bottle cage really helps in this scenario. It is very secure, provides easy access with both right and left hand options depending on rider preference, and allows for use of a standard size water bottle. The side loading feature makes working around the packaging constraints a bit easier, and not having to look for a specific bottle to go with your bike is convenient. Plus our SBC water bottles are pretty nice! If you are dying to have a proprietary water bottle we developed a bonus soft flask that fits in inside the SWAT storage area in the carbon Stupjumper EVO frame, allowing for another 22 ounces worth of water carrying capability in your frame.
Frame storage, either internal or external, is a hot selling feature right now. Do you see this as a necessity, like water bottle storage?
This depends on the specific bike and rider experience we are designing around and the goals of the bike. We produced our first chassis with SWAT frame storage on the carbon Stumpjumper back in 2016, and have been refining it ever since on our carbon trail bikes. The new Stumpjumper EVO alloy models are our first foray into SWAT storage in an aluminum frame. Safe to say we see the value in SWAT storage and will continue to develop it in our bikes where riders are asking for it. It is really nice to ride without a pack and still have all the snacks.
If so, how much time do engineers and product managers put into building this and what are the major limitations?
The team here puts a great deal of effort into engineering and developing our SWAT systems. Again, we put ride quality first so getting the frame stiffness dialed in and keeping the frame light and strong are important and not a simple task when opening a big hole in the downtube. We’ve also tailored our solutions specifically to the frame material to make them as efficient as possible- what works on a carbon bike could plug and play into an alloy bike, but there would be too many compromises (like weight) to be acceptable. Making the system as user friendly as possible is also something we are very sensitive too, so an ample sized opening that allows for getting cargo in and out easily, and an intuitive interface that is robust for the frame and the door. Cable management in the downtube also becomes more important so storage space can be optimized and things like painting have to be addressed as there are more intricate masking operations needed. There are a lot of competing interests here that require attention on the design, engineering and testing fronts but the end results are worth it.
Rob Sherratt - Global Marketing Manager at Nukeproof
How much do water bottles actually influence frame design?
The humble water bottle… in recent years they have become a “must have” on all frames. You only need to look 5-8 years ago and riders were evolving to all carry bum bags/ hydration packs. Maybe with the development of enduro racing that has given trail riders a “look” of what they want / need. As racers have shed packs and looked for other solutions, it’s been a good design evolution to develop “on bike storage”. Hydration is obviously a key element, so there has been the return to a water bottle being an essential. Therefore, our frames have had to evolve. For the latest generation frames, packaging around a “readily available” bottle was an essential part of the design brief. Ideally a 750ml bottle was preferred, but in some cases, like the Megawatt, we reduced that to a 550ml and designed a special mount to best use the space. In an extreme case of the Giga, the downtube features a concave recess which was designed into the mold. When paired with our side loading cage allows riders to fit a 750ml bottle in all frame sizes (Small-XXL). As a side loading cage was essential, we even include this cage as standard. I suppose it's only similar to cars/vans having evolved to include cup holders as an essential item.
Could you speak to why or why not your brand has made this such a priority?
Consumer feedback has been key. We listened to and read about what our customers were asking for. We spent years reading “it’s not got a bottle holder” on the V3 Megas so something had to give (there is actually a thread on 3D printed mounts for the older Mega, which is actually a pretty cool read). As said before, it was also the evolution of our athletes' demands and our own riding too. We all wanted to ride with a more minimalist approach. Looking back to the 2017 EWS season, Sam was riding with a pack all the time at the EWS. Move forwards to 2018 where he had stash-style bib shorts and frame straps – he’d stash two 750ml flexi-flasks in his bibs. Then a frame strap for spares and a OneUp tool - that was 90% of what he needed in general. He even packed his peanut butter and jelly sandwiches in his bibs too. Move forwards to the V4 and he can move some of the weight onto the frame for his stash bibs and use these for essentials. What the pros wear gives the look of what our riders aspire to (or it does for me anyway).
If your brand has made it a priority, at what lengths did you have to go to in order to work around the packaging constraints, ie: changing geometry like standover height, downtube angles or tube shaping, and possibly kinematics?
Bike performance is never going to be compromised for packaging a bottle. The performance of our bikes in terms of kinematics and geometry is always key, but by using clever packaging we’ve still retained low stand over heights and not affected performance. This could be done for the V4 Mega, Giga and Reactor as we were designing from scratch in recent years. This is why we never changed the 2016-20 Mega to fit a bottle inside the frame (although you could fit it under the downtube - so we made sure we sourced the bottle with caps over the nozzle).
If not, is this something you will focus on in the future?
It's in every design brief we do from the start now.
Have you ever thought of creating your own proprietary water bottle, like YT has done in the past? Why is there such resistance to this if the frame could be built with less complication?
We have, we looked at it, but the cost of the molds are expensive just for a shot of water. We chose not to compromise and design it into our next generation from the outset and stick with using flex-flasks/ bib shorts or a cap on your water bottle.
Frame storage, either internal or external, is a hot selling feature right now. Do you see this as a necessity, like water bottle storage?
You can’t deny that on bike storage is helpful, be it all-in-one-tools, OneUp components or in frame storage. For us we’re looking at options to meet the demands of our riders. Again, it will come down to performance and where you are adding weight into the frame also versus convenience and what that frame is designed to be used for.
If so, how much time do engineers and product managers put into building this and what are the major limitations?
As a small company, in the past we’ve probably had resource limitations in terms of manpower. We have a super talented team and whilst we are still “small” compared to many brands we compete against; all our growth recently has been in expanding our R&D team and capabilities. Our focus is always going to be in the ultimate performance of our products, we’re a brand built on going racing. However, this extra talent is giving us more and more time to look at some details and luxuries for riders. It’s all part of the maturing and developing of the bike industry and changing customers we sell to.
Ryan Thornberry - Product Manager at Yeti Cycles
How much do water bottles actually influence frame design?
Internally mounted water bottles play more of a role in frame design then one would think. We are always fighting for every millimeter of clearance in our frame design and trying to fit a water bottle in a front triangle is no easy task. We want to keep our stand over low which pushes the top tube down, we want to leave plenty of clearance for the front tire at full compression which pushes the down tube up, steeper seat tube angles push everything forward and horizontally mounted shocks make it even harder to fit a bottle in such a contested space. Now think about those constraints and how they change as your frame size gets smaller. Achieving all of our desired design goals and achieving optimized kinematics is no easy task.
Could you speak to why or why not your brand has made this such a priority?
It’s no secret that Yeti was slow to move our water bottle mounts to the inside of the frame, we just didn’t want to sacrifice any of our kinematics to accommodate a bottle. We knew having a bottle on the bottom of the down tube wasn’t the best place to have something that was eventually going into your mouth, but that’s why there’s hydration packs right? We knew we had to find a solution to get a bottle off the bottom of the down tube and through many iterations we were able to achieve our kinematic goals and fit a bottle inside the frame. If we had to make a compromise to our kinematics I honestly don’t know if we would have moved the bottle and made those compromises.
If your brand has made it a priority, at what lengths did you have to go to in order to work around the packaging constraints, ie: changing geometry like standover height, downtube angles or tube shaping, and possibly kinematics?
It definitely took some work and all of the factors I mentioned above had to be considered but in the end we were able to move some of the frames' geometry and hard points around to accommodate a bottle in the frame without sacrificing any of our kinematics. Switch Infinity allows us to move our hard points in various positions and achieve the same kinematics with different layouts. The tricky part is finding those combinations among all the possible combinations. Geometry wise we were able to incorporate a shock extender and move our downtube forward a little near the BB to help increase clearance and keep the other dimensions in a good spot.
Have you ever thought of creating your own proprietary water bottle, like YT has done in the past? Why is there such resistance to this if the frame could be built with less complication?
We definitely could make a custom bottle to fit some or our unique design needs but having a solution that works with the many bottle options that our customers currently own would be a better solution. Yeti recently partnered with Polar Bottle to co-develop a 15oz bottle that could work on the smaller size frames where traditional sized bottles just can’t fit.
Frame storage, either internal or external, is a hot selling feature right now. Do you see this as a necessity, like water bottle storage?
Frame storage is a really nice feature on a frame. I don’t think it is a necessity with some of the current storage options available but that doesn’t mean it isn't desirable.
Ask and you shall receive. The Capra can now accommodate a 650ml water bottle thanks to a single-sided front triangle brace.
Frank Dörr - Product Development Manager YT Industries
How much do water bottles actually influence frame design?
The water bottle doesn't necessarily affect the design or shape. Frame and bike performance are paramount. However, it is an additional part that has to be considered as it occupies space within the front triangle as well as the shock. When it comes to E-bikes, adding a motor and a battery to the bike makes things more difficult. Additionally, our well-known V4L kinematics and how it is mounted to the downtube requires great engineering skills, experience, and attention to detail when deciding where to put the bottle cage and if there is enough clearance for all frame sizes.
Could you speak to why or why not your brand has made this such a priority?
Keeping pace with the latest trends, listening to customer feedback, and deciding what makes sense to us is an ongoing process. Things have changed in the gravity segment since enduro riding has developed. Racing started to become more professional and popular since its inception in 2013 and had a big impact on frame features. In the beginning, even the pros wore backpacks. Meanwhile, it is state of the art to put everything onto or into the frame and away from your body. This enables you to ride more actively and move better. I mean look at the Pinkbike poll and compare 2016 vs 2021 – a massive difference in opinion. After the Izzo and Jeffsy were introduced with water bottle options it was a must to feature a bottle on the next Capra too. The new generation of the Capra is a more balanced bike than its predecessors, which were very much focused on the shred/gravity aspect of enduro riding. The new balanced approach increased the use case for water bottle integration and required us to develop the new one-sided wing design that still delivers the same added stiffness and strength we like our Capra frame to have.
If your brand has made it a priority, at what lengths did you have to go to in order to work around the packaging constraints, ie: changing geometry like standover height, downtube angles or tube shaping, and possibly kinematics?
We have always been able to realize the kinematics and geometry we aimed for and the performance of the bike is at the forefront of development. We don’t sacrifice performance to fit a bottle. What can be affected is the shape of the frame, to create a fully integrated feature. This is the case for the current Jeffsy for example, where the downtube is designed in a way that allows for a fully integrated bottle mount.
You have created proprietary water bottles for some YT models. Why is there such resistance to this if the frame could be built with less complication?
Thanks for mentioning us as an example! As mentioned: performance first! This is why we opted to design specific bottles that have enough capacity to be worthwhile and fit within the frame rather than design the frame so it would fit every bottle. The Decoy features a YT-specific water bottle and cage, the Jeffsy MK2 and Capra MK3 feature a YT-specific base plate from Fidlock and a YT-specific water bottle too. However, we are aware that not everyone wants to fit such a bottle and possibly already has a collection of water bottles at home. Therefore, it is still possible to fit most regular side-entry cages and certain bottle sizes on both the Jeffsy and Capra.
Frame storage, either internal or external, is a hot selling feature right now. Do you see this as a necessity, like water bottle storage?
Finding ways to add utility features to the bike that are helpful to riders makes sense. We are always looking for opportunities that are beneficial to the rider as long as they do not harm the performance or look of the bike. We do already feature specific rivets on the bottom of the top tube on the Izzo and Capra to mount on-bike storage. Specific frame storage would be sweet if it's well done.
If so, how much time do engineers and product managers put into building this and what are the major limitations?
If you want to do it right, you have to invest many resources. Even if it looks simple, it doesn't mean it's quickly done. Every project starts with a specification sheet in which features are prioritized according to the area of usage/application. If there is a high priority for a utility feature, we invest capacities accordingly to make it happen. The development of neat, rider-friendly features is gaining more and more attention at YT.
Chris Porter - Director at Mojo Rising
How much do water bottles actually influence frame design?
For most brands it influences design way too much! Bicycle packaging is tight enough trying to squeeze in a century old gear change system around a multi linkage suspension system and a nice fat off-road tyre. I honestly don’t understand why the water bottle question is such an issue? There is no room for ‘old fashioned’ water bottles on triathlon bikes either. But the bikes get designed to be efficient and aerodynamic and the water bottles are then designed to fit the bikes in lots of different locations. The bike is not designed to fit a 750cc round water bottle… It’s the same in other parts of the MTB too… The front wheel to fork mounting system (the axle) is designed around punctures and packing the bike in a car or on a rack. Literally designed to be quick and easy to remove to fix punctures and pack bikes rather than as a stiff, secure performance steering component!!
Could you speak to why or why not your brand has made this such a priority?
Our priority when designing the G1 was to make a bicycle with better suspension performance and longevity. We designed the bike to use longer dropper posts and we designed the head tubes around the capability to use taller and longer travel 29er forks… This inevitably squeezes the triangle towards the head tube so that on the smaller sizes there is no room for a water bottle in front of where we put the suspension system. Bicycle have had front ‘triangles’ for well over a hundred years so why don’t bicycle bottle manufacturers make bottles that fit this shape? We make bicycles, other people make the water bottles, we don’t want to let them dictate the suspension design!
The other water bottle design necessity is holes in the tubes, drill a hole in a tube and that becomes the weak point. Why do that un-necessarily?
If your brand has made it a priority, at what lengths did you have to go to in order to work around the packaging constraints, ie: changing geometry like standover height, downtube angles or tube shaping, and possibly kinematics?
Yes, some people design their suspension system to allow for multiple water bottles. Sweet… Kinematics, geometry, strength, longevity and performance taking a back seat to the need to put in a shit, 50 cent, plastic water bottle...
If not, is this something you will focus on in the future?
No...
Have you ever thought of creating your own proprietary water bottle, like YT has done in the past? Why is there such resistance to this if the frame could be built with less complication?
We don’t have the funds of a company like YT so we would expect the water bottle manufacturers to make bottles to fit bicycle shaped holes!
Frame storage, either internal or external, is a hot selling feature right now. Do you see this as a necessity, like water bottle storage?
Maybe, if you are hiding a motor on your team enduro bikes! Why on earth would you design the MTB frame around a dubious ‘benefit’ of being able to carry a sandwich and keep the same sillhouette? Is it really a buying decision? Does anyone really say "I’d love to buy this 165mm travel enduro bike with the shock and fork I really want and the drivetrain spec I need and the wheels that I want in the size and geometry that I want and in a fetching shade that really brings out the best in my skin tone… BUT! The other one with a different fork and shock, cheaper drivetrain, hooky geometry and crappy graphics actually has a sandwich box neatly integrated into the downtube! I’d better buy that one!” Externally, use a reusable zip tie or nylon strap, no need to re-design the frame!
If so, how much time do engineers and product managers put into building this and what are the major limitations?
Engineers and product managers spend far too much time on little things that look different from brand to brand because most of the bikes are made in the same factories! The Unique Selling Points are all the wrong things… Certainly the USPs are easier to understand if viewed through a marketing lens rather than an engineering lens…
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1) people don’t like wearing packs
The math here is pretty easy.
Sounds just as stupid.
Porter is also the person attaching weights to his bikes right around the Bb. Maybe he should try adding a kink to his tubes to make space for a water bottle - it’ll have the same affect.
(nope) I like a pack.
If there is any compromise given to suspension performance due to water bottles, then the bike is worse for me.
Switched back to backpacks last year! The Camelbak Skyline LR 10 is what changed things. Fits and carries weight like a lumbar pack with the stability and storage capacity of a backpack.
Even on shorter rides I prefer that backpack to a frame water bottle. I can drink with both hands on the bars! Being able to sip on a long sustained singletrack semi-techy climb is really nice. Also nice to be able to take a quick sip on a flat spot in the middle of a long downhill, and I have the option of carrying 3L of water and enough layers/food for a full day mission.
So...I went from backpacks to frame storage to fanny packs back to (the right kind of) backpack.
For me I just can't stand having anything rattling on my bike and a water bottle is the perfect companion if you want a noisy ride.
It is a generalization...but having having lots of tools and sh%T so you can bring a backpack, i am no psychologist but it does look like lack of skills compensation...
but thats my experience around to where i currently live i might be wrong, just a comment
I really don’t care if a company decides not to prioritize a spot for a water bottle, I just know that’s a company I won’t buy from. I’m glad the majority of mountain bikers have come around to water bottles being a priority, though. Cause, now there are plenty of great bikes that fit a bottle. Personally, I’d like to see a second bottle mount below the down tube on more bikes again, it’s a good spot for a gear storage mount or for extra water in the desert where you don’t care about mud splashing up, all while shifting weight lower. Plus, a bottle or gear bag/ canister below the down tube would double was extra frame protection from rock strikes.
I have the best warm memory about some of the cars with 4 cupholder at the front seats; with cooling/heating features - it was just comfortable to use;
Also some of features such isofix, cupholders and yadayada have huge influence when u make a purchase for example family car
Also i never saw people racing mojo bikes and winning podiums on them
I was always happy with my camelbak until Mike K started complaining about bottle mounts in enduro bikes around here.
Apparently he and Pinkbike are the industry equivalent of Jeremy Clarkson and Top Gear.
Remember when Koenigsegg redesign their CCX's wing because it didn't have enough downforce according to the Stig? They tripped all over themselves to send them the new design so the show approved it. :-)
Yeah I'm with you on this. Can't believe the obsession with water bottles. I drink at least a litre of water on a ride and my backpack provides that and space for spares, multitool and food.
Since when did fluids rattle?
And if the bottle itself rattles. Don't worry, that means it'll fall off when riding over the first twig.
No not in the minority, there are a lot of us on the same page. Yes they look awful. I worked in a bike shop from 2003 to 2014 and during that time it was considered daggy uncool aesthetically shite to fit a water bottle to a MTB Trail, Freeride or All M ountain bike. We all used backpack hydration/storage and a lot of us still do.
Imagine our surprise/disdain when riders from all these categories started asking for a cage & bottle to be fitted at time of purchase. Backpacks are too sweaty/heavy they said. So what, we said - it's the best way to carry what we need on a decent ride.
Fast forward to today and WOW most riders now demand a bottle. They can be looking at a new bike that has won test after test as the best in category - but if it doesn't have room for a bottle, it's a game changer.
And so we come to this story where bike most bike designers are building a frame around a bottle.
Fear not - there are still some of us who hate the bottle, love the backpack!
Our bikes were adorned with lazy boy sized seats and Marzocchi Shivers or monster T's. Fast forward to today, and
If I had to choose, I'd go hip pack or backpack. Because I think water bottles on bikes look dumb. But I choose neither. I ride DH bikes or pump track/dj. If I get thirsty, I ride faster to get to the bottom.
That being said.... People, you do you boo boo.
I’m stealing that.
And for what it’s worth, I’m a pack/bladder guy too. One bottle of water is nowhere near enough water for a 4-5 hour ride in the mountains so it’s a waste of space for me.
I mean I get it but it's not like he designed a bottle/cage around the G1 either. He brought this up in a MBR interview a few years ago, yet G1 owners still are left with the reality of fitting a water bottle on a bike not designed for one. Leaving it up to someone else to design a bottle around your bike means there's no bottle designed around your bike.
Sure I understand we need water and tools on our rides. I do prefer the backpack option. Yes more weight on the body, less on the bike implies you have a greater command over the bike (provided you have the strength). Agreed you do need a pack that stays in place, has the bulk of the weight (the water) low and protects your back against the tools you put in there (if you don't already didn't bolt those to the bottle mount under the downtube). And most modern packs are designed around that idea. I like my Ergon BE1 which has the water bladder low (where hip packs keep it too) and the upper part is flat and there is hardly any weight there.
1. Hold water efficiently
2. Have good ergonomics
3. Able to stand up when set on a table/flat surface
The most efficient shape for maximum volume is a sphere, but not practical for anything else. A cylinder is a good 2nd place, and is structurally very strong. You make the bottom flat and now it can stand up on a table. So pretty much we have what we already have.
However, does that make the sb-150 any slower? Heavier? Weaker? The sb-150 is probably the fastest true "Enduro" bike out there. Its decently light. They break more often than they should, but its the rear triangle that cracks, not the downtube. When you're riding it, do you ever really think about how dramatically it hangs forward, or does it make any real difference to your climbing and descending?
I will say the SB150 is a much better bike, but thats down to geometry, not is ability to hold a water bottle.
The SB6 did hold a water bottle, but in a bad place. I wonder if this is where a new, "proprietary" bottle design could come into play- one that allows you to put the bottle in the path of mud and rocks but still drink clean water.
I was nearly going to buy one...but he was just as arrogant and u willing to listen by email as he is in this article. He really has a chip on his shoulder...he's seems super angry at the bike world...he think he knows best and makes the best bike and everyone else makes inferior plastic bikes. I tried to have a logical conversation with him over the sprung mass benefits of gear box bikes and explained I was also looking at a Zerode at the time..he was just sitting on everything else...calling carbon bikes pretty plastic bikes...proper belittling he was. Funny cos Paul Aston used to be associated with Geometron...I emailed him directly and he said straight up gearbox bikes do have much better feeling suspension from the low unsprung mass and higher sprung mass...he basically admitted everything Chris refused to. In the end though I just thought f all this and just bought a Yeti sb165 instead.But to some up...he's bloody arrogant to say the least.
I’ve gone over this again and again with Cp Nicolai . They don’t give a shit or they are so deluded by living in wales and Germany they don’t comprehend overheating or death by heatstroke ( happens more than you think)
But these guys see the necessity for fenders on their bikes ….. fenders?..FENDERS? Why the hell who one ever need fenders to ride a bike? I live in the desert, that just is not a necessity .
The guy sure as hell knows how to setup a shock, the way he worked his way through the STORIA shock to suit his needs is very interesting but not exactly an approach you could apply to a series production bike. Took the liberty to dynotest one of the things, fun times.
This is also where your complain about the linear to progressive damping falls apart. The storia basevalve allows you do dial in as much digressiveness (read "pop" or "harshness" depending on perspective) as you like.
Also the frame is quite progressive, so I do not understand your argument here. Unless you run the adjusters wide open it should behave like most other bikes on the market. Valved by him you will propably ride the settings wide open to give you that uncorrupted linear damping feel he is striving for but I am sure they can valve the thing properly for different need, if not there are tons of others who can.
What I do not understand is, with everything he is complaining about, why he did not ask at Nicolai to just weld in the top tube about 10cm lower at the seat tube and give it a brace to the seat tube. I mean, he is complaining about stand over height, is he not? Also, it looks like a flat top crane with that high top tube.
Either way, I still prefer more weight on the body and less on the bike. Just because I believe you can bunnyhop higher and also gain more speed when pumping the bike if the weight is on the body as you can play more with the mass moment of inertia. Imagine having super heavy bike and a light rider. Popping a bunnyhop becomes hard, pumping the bike becomes pretty pointless. Of course it isn't as bad when you just add 1kg or so to the bike (bottle, tools, pump etc) but I believe it still matters.
If I need a proper amount of water I carry a hip pack / pack. There are so many ways to carry water I don't see the need to specifically design a frame around it at the expense of suspension performance.
And our geography means that in most places, even a full day epic ride can often mean dropping into the next valley where there’s a cafe or shop or church (free water tap) for a mid ride top up.
@jeremy3220: Yes, agreed but I didn't mean to say bunnyhopping is just muscling the bike. I meant to mention three different actions. Bunnyhopping, pumping and muscling the bike around. With the latter I mean tilting the bike in corners or in the air etc. It is a matter of momentum. If you have more weight on your body, with the same body motion you can shift the bike more.
So yeah, it is a matter of priorities. I case of a smaller brand (in terms of production quantities) available production facilities also pose their own requirements but as for all the other requirements already it is about priorities. Seems like a lot of brands prefer a bottle mount over a straight seattube and a lot of people are fine with that so they're getting one of these bikes. Some brands have a different order of priorities and if the bottle mount ends up straight at the bottom of the list, chances are that it isn't going to make it on the eventual bike. And some people are fine with that too. And again, those who aren't already have other bikes to choose from. At the end of the day, it doesn't hurt to have these options for and from people with different visions.
Instead of Nicolai, Porter should team up with Pole bicycles, this would be fun, I bet they would kill each other because both of them have this "I am right and others are dumb" attitude to life.
The price of the water bottle is irrelevant. The job it does is what matters. Being hydrated is pretty high on the list of things that are very important.
Take a look at what you do for a living... now take a look at some people around you that do the same thing as you. Ask yourself if all of them are good at what they do, or are some of them dumb as shit?
This applies to every profession. Engineers included.
Don't be fooled by the title.
Is he too aggressive in his statements? See, when a bike is being reviewed on this website with no room for a bottle inside the front triangle, it is perceived as an omission or something the designers forgot. Whereas designers don't just forget those things. They make the conscious choice to implement it or not. A reviewer who spent a day reviewing a bike and claims a team of engineers "forgot" something seems pretty passive-aggressive too. Just because someone made something that doesn't happen to meet your own particular set of requirements doesn't mean they forgot it. So, a lot of shit has been flying one way. Now, a little bit of that made its way back. Should we care much? There is more to riding bicycles than the focus on shit exclusively,
Back in the early 2000's we were at the DJ park. I had attempted a moto whip, (this was new to MTB at the time), got the bike fully sideways, and couldn't bring it back. Landed on my side, busted a few fingers and messed a bunch of other things up.
Went to the clinic. Told the doc, "pretty sure I broke my fingers". His response was, "no you didnt".
I had broken a few fingers in my life before so I remember the feeling.
So I was adamant that he order x-rays. Finally he responds, "I will order Xrays just to entertain you, but I'm telling you they aren't broken."
So I go next door for Xrays, and sure enough I come back and index was busted through and middle + ring finger were fractured. This MF proceeds to show me the xray where they are broken like he knew all along.
Adding in that he bandaged up my cuts after he dry shaved over the cuts with a cheap Bic razor because he was worried about the adhesive of the bandages sticking to the hair.
Another time I herniated my L4/L5 vertebrae, and several doctors passed it off as back pain, when I had severe sciatica due to the disc misalignment. It wasn't until I saw a doc who was here from the UK that they even ordered a CT. This was 3 years later btw.
So maybe I'm a bit jaded, but I've personally seen some less than optimal doctors in my life.
I think where CP is coming from is there are bigger fish to fry than mounting a bottle in a frame. Sure its important to drink water but let's solve the bigger ticket items first. Then we can finesse the design to take a bottle/ tools.
And making a fuss about holes in tubes? I mean... correct me if I'm wrong, but the frequency of "water-bottle bolt-hole failures" ranks pretty low on the list of failure modes I've seen.
Earth Virus is a Libtaard hoax.
Can’t say there are any waist deep river crossings around here but if there were, most phones are IP67 anyway.
But Nicolai provide holes for internal cable routing?
"It’s the same in other parts of the MTB too… The front wheel to fork mounting system (the axle) is designed around punctures and packing the bike in a car or on a rack. Literally designed to be quick and easy to remove to fix punctures and pack bikes rather than as a stiff, secure performance steering component!!"
I'd really like to see what his ideal fork axle looks like. If it sacrifices easy maintenance for the front wheel then I'm out. If he can manage all those things with no tradeoffs then that's perfect.
Regardless as a pilot and aircraft maintenance engineer, there's very few things I detest more than highly optimal engineering that sacrifices ease of maintenance for subtle performance gains. For myself easy maintenance = performance, because the longer it takes to service something is less time spent using it.
Stiffer, stronger, and a bit slower to get the wheel off.
I'd go back.
In a full suspension bike, the suspension is the reason for the design and if water bottles don’t fit then that’s just fine.
Waist packs, backpacks, even drinking before and after the ride, these are all fine options.
I have an fs bike that holds two bottle and one that holds zero bottles. When I ride with dogs and it’s hot, I take the bike that has bottle holders.
I really can’t think of a dumber design limitation or a dumber thing to worry about. I think people are stuck in the road biking days.
Remember, there are plenty of great bikes that DO fit a bottle, and that there aren’t really any compromises (maybe some grams because of tube shaping)?
Everyone should buy TWO full suspension mountain bikes. One with bottles for hot days, one without for *insert whatever supposed benefits not having room for a bottle gives you*.
Classic nurseben
1.5L small Fox hydrationpack is hardly notieable and it holds more water than small frame mounted water bottle + theres just enough room for tubeless patch and pump. Water bottle is wayyyy below number 50 on my list when buying new bike... It could be important for somebody but wouldnt want to buy bike if one of main design priority is to fit water bottle inside frame... I agree Porter on this one...
Or perhaps you only have one pair of shoes, so you can go to work (moms basement) hike (to school) and go kayaking (in the pool) in sandals.
If I didn’t have a bike with water bottles, I’d carry my water in my pack of I’d sling a bottle somewhere else.
I don’t ride a watter bottle, I ride a bike.
Classic, Jeremy (whoever the eff you are), insert thumb in arse, then place in mouth
How can we have a new hub standard or bb standard every couple years, but water bottles? No way man. Keep that style designed around 70s road bikes alive! It's super wierd.
I have a yt thirstmaster 5000 on my bike, 835ml bottle that takes up the same space as a standard 600ml bottle, and that's with pretty mild design changes.
I think people would be 100% behind frame specific bottles if it maximized water carrying capacity and allowed frame designers to not have to make wierd design compromises for what is a totally arbitrary bottle shape.
This just seems like a case of trying to reinvent the wheel, which I guess as a whole this sport is pretty hellbent on at all times.
Frankly I avoided Specialized for as long as i could, detouring to boutique brands. But my 2020 SJ Evo changed me, and now I have three S-works in the garage (22' SJ Evo, 21' Epic Evo and 18' Tarmac). SWAT storage and the build quality and performance of the new Stumpy's and Tarmac's are quite frankly unbeatable. Only Trek can come close to the overall package.
Still, I have much love for the smaller brands. They will catch up some day
IMO this is one of the benefits of bottles, I can spray my neck/head when I get too hot. It’s really hard to spray water from a hydration pack.
It’s a game changer for me on this type of bike- I never want to go back.
I understand this is harder to achieve on a longer travel bike for a number of reasons…
But honestly I wish all bikes could fit two bottles plus pump, tube, and tools.
I’ve used both hip packs and back packs… while I get along OK with both styles, NOT carrying a pack is just so nice.
This goes double for hot and humid climates.
I feel like water bottles have really only re-surged because enduro is trending. It’s a pretty entertaining trend to witness but also unfortunate to see design compromise for a water bottle just as the industry has finally started to focus more on lowering standover/more clean, compact design.
I’ve seen people use frame bags specially made for their bikes on gravel rides with an internal bladder that they swap out at aid stations along the race route. Those are excellent solutions to a hydration/nutrition problem, albeit they don’t have suspension to worry about…for now.
Custom frame bags on all sorts of full suspension designs are commonplace in the bikepacking world and often with a water bladder inside them. I can carry a large and medium bidons on my XC FS bike [Epic Evo]. But with a frame pack I could carry more water in say the Apidura bladder and also other bits too.
I hate water bottles and water bottle mounts on bikes! No suboptimal kinematics and beer belly downtubes, thank you! Camelbak ftw!
Am I indeed first with this comment? Do I win something? A date with Chris Porter? Uh…
But seriously, riding on a hot day for up to two hours and bringing just one 750 cl bottle, or less as some seem to do, may not be sufficient to stay well hydrated. Oh, and don’t forget to load up with carbohydrates and minerals (potassium and sodium) which are lost as you perspire.
Please Outside/PB allow more time to edit typing errors.
I run multiple bikes (and no, I have no intention of reducing the number of bikes I have, it is all part of the fun!, Some have a bottle cage within the front triangle, some below downtube (two Banshee V2s).
Unless I am on a very short ride, I need more than one drink bottle.
I need to carry tools, and having multiple bikes, on-bike storage is not very viable - I cannot be bothered swapping tools between bikes each ride and having multiple sets of tools gets expensive.
Unless I am on a long ride, I tend to use a Bontrager Rapid Pack which carries my basic tools plus a drink bottle. I run the same bottle on the bike and the pack so I can just change the lids between bottles if I am using a bike with under-downtube bottle cage (I don't race much, so no big hurry to swap them over).
I would have considered a new V3 Banshee, but to provide an above-downtube bottle cage has resulted in a linkage axle blocking the seat tube and limiting dropper post insertion markedly. I would need to reduce dropper travel to accommodate the bottle cage - a poor tradeoff for me.
An interesting point to consider is centre of gravity. I am no fan of dirty drink bottles, but positioning the bottle cage beneath the downtube reduces the height of this mass by about 130mm on my bikes. On my scales, a full drink bottle weighs around 800g so this is not insignificant, and I assume is much more than the new V3 shock cradle achieves.
Just the ramblings of an old and irrelevant rider
Hell the first bum bag/hip pack I saw in recent years was on a German DH rider in Morzine about 8 years ago. He had his keys, a snack, tube, tools and a small foldable water bottle in it. I thought it was genius back then (even if bum bags were lame and for old people back then).
racing definitely directs trail users image and impressions.
and expectations. and trail riders (like me, former racer) also like riding without packs,
and riding high performance bikes.
that ride like a race bike.
because fast is fun. wild is fun. loose is fun.
sweaty and uncomfortable is not fun.
if you're having fun with a pack? rad.
without a pack? rad.
motorcyclists have this same timeless and un-resolvable debate on their sites too.....
I strap shit to my motorbikes, my mt bikes, and my truck.
so if said Moto, mtb and truck strap better, drive better, and I ride better..... its a win win.
I wonder what other designs mojo could come up with that ( while ignoring bottles) still acheive exactly what porter is going for. and I do think adding a water bottle to an enduro bike could literally make it a better riding trail (not for racing per se) bike.
Based on demand on EDC tools, water bottles and in frame-storage - majority riders are willing to pay for that including myself;
Riding resort's or short rides up to 1-1,5h can be ultimately better with out necessity of carrying anything on u, also modern bike's are super reliable so the only spare u need is some alien key, and probably co2 or mini pump;
Hitting jump lines much more fun without bagpack;
the last but not least, looking good on your bike also is super important, why someone would not want to look awesome on 5k bike or 10k bike?
Trail with pack - keep the hands on the bar, short(er) rides, room for protection storage
top tubes are getting lower and steeper as bikes get more and more aggressive design. This opens up space for frame bags on top tubes (that hold iphones under waterproof films), and no reason the bottle can't go ON the top tube.
I recall old cannondale Super V frames had TWO water bottle cages on top of the front "triangle", and that thing for sure did not "compromise" the frame to support water bottles below shin height.
If a bike mfg wants to design some sort of super-agressive bike with a low slung top tube and front triangle 'full of shock', it seems reasonable to me to put the bottle cage bolts on the top of the top tube.
All this "on bike storage" using zip ties and fancy straps is the dumbest thing that's ever happened in mountain biking too, there are tons of perfectly good frame bags that keep your shit dry and together that have worked perfectly well as long as I can remember. Why on earth did we think it was better to use a zip tie and expose all your gear to the elements every ride as opposed to the existing bags?
because the one bike you made did not represent anything near the rest of the bike industry, you made and sold what? If there are 50 -100 out there i would be amazed.
Another option is a holder for the collapsible/folding bottles.
I use one in my back bib pocket...
I'd like to see bibs without the pad on offer. 3 rear pockets and performance mesh with compression/nut holder.
Can't tell if this stratospheric jargon concentration is serious or making fun of the question...
Arguably Trek still jacked up the standover height, because you can't actually stand over the lowest part of the frame, there will be a seat and a butt competing for space and most humans would end up hitting the frame somewhere in the middle of that curve, pretty high up.
What does that have to do with anything? Easier than what? There are dual link designed with all manner of shock orientations, same with 4-bar, faux-bar, split-pivot: all have seen both vertical and horizontal shocks, and both linkage and direct (shock attached to seat stay) driven.
Let’s face it, if you only need 20oz for your ride you can just hydrate before and after. Toughen up, buttercup. It’s not a fashion show.
And I’m willing to wager at the ripe old age of 47 my bag of tricks is bigger.. you see, we didn’t need manual trainers before water bottles came back. Coincidence?
So you know that a rider is faster with their bottle attached to a cage, rather than if they had the same amount of water in a pack (A: No you're not)
So, on those rides when you have to walk out, would you have been faster on those days if you carried spares? (A: Yes)
Out of curiosity, you sound super fast, where can I read about your race results?
Same as the previous poster. I hate wearing a pack for DH. I’m not saying brands should change their design to fit a water bottle but if it fits put some bottle bosses in the frame. I would definitely rock a bottle.
Designing a gravity oriented bike around storage is one the most retarded decisions in the bike industry, along with boost spacing. Luckily the material shortage kinda ended the weight weenie tendency and now we have bikes able to withstand more than a riding season without passing through warranty. Now we need them to come back to sensible prices, but I'm not holding my breath over it.
Speak life PEOPLE! No one gives a shit what you think.
Pinkbike, please continue to put out great content. Hopefully there are more people who appreciate all the work you do than this fringe group of FOOLS.
Rant over.
Happy New Year to all the positive people out there. To all the negative d-bags, go catch covid ;-)
Summer is a different thing but where I live it wont rain much in summer. So I can drink