Brook Macdonald Sustains Spinal Injury in Training Crash - Mont-Sainte-Anne DH World Champs 2019

 totally agree. This shouldn't happen AFTER an athlete is seriously injured.

 Given the scale and use of that mountain, you would have thought the helicopter situation would have been sorted out years ago.

 EWS at Northstar has a life-flight helicopter and medics staged at the finish all last weekend but World Champs cannot even scope out a landing pad until after an accident. Unbelievable!

 @ninjatarian: it’s not their first time racing this mountain.. this is ridiculous.

 @herbertmarcusavich:

Best wishes for Bulldog.

Even the tiny hill at the Sea Otter has choppers onsite and the hospital is only a couple of miles away

 Not to mention I'm sure this hasn't been the first heli-vac from a ski hill...there is got to be a dedicated location they use during ski season

 @seraph it really is insanely unprofessional. I question the UCI and it's ability to provide a safe environment for racers. Lots of assumptions about response time, no prepositioned helos, no pre-planned helicopter landing zones, etc.

Honestly seems like amateur hour

 Im surprised. Mont st anne organizers really are the best in the business. They usually go the extra mile in everything. They missed this vital part of planning though. Best wishes to Brook. One inspiring individual and that will only continue

 @ross005: there's an hospital down the hill, it's like a 2minutes drive. Not sure they use helicoper so often.

 Plattekill, of ALL mountains, with their whopping 2 lifts(Only had 1 back in the 90's) had a landing field at the bottom of their mountain.

Let that sink in.

And now, realuze how piss poor the organization of this entire event is.

 4 Fucking hours!

 you really cant just land a helicopter on the side of the mountain you know as it is unlikely that they moved him down the mountain to prevent further injury to his back, the doctor would have stablized him on the side of the track

 With appropriate training and equipment the heli wouldn't have even needed to land.

Let's contrast this shitshow with the evacuation in Andorra a few years back. A rider had a serious fall on one of the steepest sections of the track. Not only was the heli there quickly, but it didn't even land. It winched a medic down (through the forest canopy) and then hoisted the medic and patient back up. No need to transport the patient to a landing pad, and he was on his way to trauma care at a real hospital in the shortest possible time.

 @derpiton: a good medevac/life flight team should have no problem doing a rescue lift.

Given his injuries, the docs should have immobilized him and moved him to the nearest landing zone if the helo wasn't willing to do a lift.

If I could do this at night in the mountains of Afghanistan, they can do this during the day in Canada.

 @herbertmarcusavich: Yea, Northstar had that site dialed. Helicopter sitting right in the convergence area of all the stages. Crew on the ready.

 There's a hospital near the mountain but what they're only good to diagnose a cold... Also keep in mind that he crashed pretty much in the middle of the course and would most likely cause further problems for someone with spinal injury so ambulance in this situation would be a nonsense. As of why it did took so much time to chopper him out, MS Mondraker said it perfectly: "unacceptable". But for now the only thing important is that Brook get better :/

 @scary1: this has absolutely nothing to do with the Canadian health care system but the event organizers and UCI. The free health care system is designed to help everyone, and most of them aren't doing dangerous sports. Best wishes for Brook.

 @derpiton: i work in Blackcomb terrain park in the winter, we have multiple heli-evacs every season, and yes they can and do land helicopters on the side of a mountain. unless all helicopters in the area are busy with other calls and injuries have to be prioritized, or flying conditions are not good, the wait time is never longer than 30-45 minutes.

this is piss poor safety management. absolute f*cking amateur hour.

best wishes to brook.

 @scary1: quebec has a different health care system than the rest of canada. the frenchies like to be different.

 @scary1: No, actually it isn't. It sounds more like lack of thorough planning.

And FYI, sufficient financial incentives don't exist for market-based healthcare to get involved in technical evac. That's why it is usually handled by SAR teams in the US. Which are usually run by fire departments or sheriffs' offices. Which we (the taxpayers) all share the expense of. And when society shares an expense without a 3rd party making a profit, it's generally referred to as "socialism" of some sort.

 @wda1wustl: LOL what in the actual f*ck are you talking about? America literally has the worst and most expensive healthcare in the developed world.

 @wda1wustl: Healthcare is not the same as evac. Educate yourself.

 @wda1wustl: actually, that was a private service, not the public one....

 Everything is better in Canada except beer, avocados, mexican food and emergency evacuations.

 @won-sean-animal-chin: apparently that is not true.

 Suggest they ban UCI DH events at any race venue that can’t guarantee fast athlete evac. which includes an onsite evac helicopter - after all, it’s not like they host these for free.....

 @proxient: hence why i said "surprised"

 @jorukfundan: CA likes their helicopters.

 it's a ski resort, so it seems odd that they wouldn't already have landing spots mapped out.

 Yeah.. That's stupid response time.. It's 11pm here, I could call my pilot, we could both drive to our hanger, push the bird out, fuel it, cook some food on the BBQ, enjoy the food and then preflight the shop and he could fly 150 miles and medivac extract and be home in 4 hours.. Seems silly to not have air ambulance figured out beforehand..

 @EastCoastDHer: Hey ease up on Spratt beast coast noob. They can't land a chopper there it's too steep and up draft's. There were piles of people because that mountain eats people . They land at a farm down the road and get hauled off the Albany. Facts.


Sorry to hear about Brook btw, wish a speedy recovery

 I am not sure whether I am gutted more about Brook or state of humanity after reading some comments here. The moment you go Crashed Bloke in agonizing pain -> blame political system, you should know you are fkd up. This is where “ I want to argue on the internet today” goes full retard.

In the face of how serious this is, out of respect to Brook and how shaken all the racers must be, please keep your anxiety in check boys... suck it up and walk it off if you must. Go out and ride.

 @herbertmarcusavich: few years ago in andorra an helicopter was called for cam cole, it arrived few minutes after the crash, couldnt land, so the pilot went stationary, and they used the winch(?) to lift him trough the trees. Took a while but it was still way faster than this.

 @zede: it is all 90% down to how well the personell is trained and what experience it has. Just like in place like Andorra If this happened in Chamonix or Polish Tatra mountains everything would go much smoother, he would be airlifted quickly through canopy because all the medical services as well as the pilots have done it hundreds of times during the year, every year, they know their sht and they have seen it all - not because Donald Trump, Maple syrup, global warming, black lives matter, chain stay length or e-turds, or anything Pinkbike commenters like to bring up out of nowhere, no matter the subject . It is not uncommon for Military heli pilots to take proximity flying lessons for mountain rescue pilots. But there is a bloody difference between MtSaint Anne and Mt Blanc, in the very same way, if a climber is seriously injured in a wall in Polish Tatra mountains they will be airlifted as soon as it is possible within best possible human capacity, but if you break your spine riding bike park 100km away, you may as well ask your buddies to knock you out with a big rock. And repeat the procedure until you arrive in hospital 24h later.

 @herbertmarcusavich:

Yeah, if you look at the organisation and extremely good locations and tracks that EWS are held on compared to DH, EWS seems to be in another league: both for riders aswell as spectators.

Hopefully Brook will be back soon. He´s a beast and got what it takes to make a quick rehab.

 @scary1: for your information, this would have been absolutely unthinkable in the netherlands, even though we live in a ‘socialist’ state as well. How far some of you americans seem to be from reality is actually kind of frightening..

 Just wait until you hear both sides of the story before you judge (or not). Hovering a helicopter near trees, steep mountains etc is just difficult. Hovering high or flying fast and low are both safer than hovering close to the ground (or walls, trees etc). Were people flying drones, were there strong unsteady winds, were the huge crowds of people and their cellphones disturbing communication between the helicopter and the people on the ground? Sorry peeps, but they should have done something really wrong (to the point of intentional) before you should dare to blame those who risk their lives to come to rescue.

Get well soon Brook!

 @Mntneer: Do you really do that shit man? Fly helicopters in Afghanistan in the mountains at night?

 @Endurip: I assure you if this happened in Gesunda or Järvsö it would look the same. Do we need to bring up Matti Lehikonen almost dying in an ambulance after a crash on Swedish DH cup? Teams in Åre or in Abisko may be better trained since they encounter more emergency situations.

@Bonkywonky - the utter pointlessness of our arguing here. Netherlands has no mountains, trees are thin on the ground... in the very same way this would happen in the most privatized little mountain resort in US.

In capitalist terms: there is too little supply of severely injured people at MtSaint Anne to create demand for mega sharp ground service and super skilled heli pilots

 @word!

 Anyone know if there has been crowd funding set up to assist Brook ?

 I once asked if there would be another World Champs or World Cupin Rotorua. I was told no because now thermust be a trauma unit within 30mins of the site. So 4 hours to get a rider to hospital...seems legit.

 You can't land a chopper on certain mountains. The updraft could potentially result in casualties.

 @WAKIdesigns: if you don’t read properly it is pretty pointless indeed.. the guy blamed it on canada’s “socialism” , saying you get what you pay for and THAT was what I responded to. We have state funded health care too but our hospitals etc are top level.

 Always riding 1000%

 @Dodgysam: I would have thought that Rotorua hospital had a trauma unit, and Tauranga is less than 30mins by helicopter.

 Being here at MSA this weekend, every available parking lot and a free grass area is taken up by the event (Race course/vendor booths/spectator areas). I can see where there is no place to land a helicopter. This was an oversite it seems like by the event coordinator to plan for. They could have shut down the road that leads to the event as timing is important in these cases. If people had to waiting in traffic for 15 minutes to get an athlete out quickly by helicopter I am sure they would be ok...its Canada.

 @WAKIdesigns:

Perhaps it would, but Gesunda and Järvsö are no places that EWS ever will take place.

 @captaindingus: we actually don't it's the same as everyone in canada. But they really f*cked up on this one.

 It's pathetic. I work on remote sites all over Canada and we always register a temporary landing site ID with the provincial air ambulance before work commences. Lots of mountains out west do the same but with permanent locations.

Once a site is registered, a sign is posted with the evac site id number and when emergency services is called all the caller needs to say is that site whatever needs helicopter evacuation. No need to know the last/long. No need for the pilot to ID a safe landing spot. The fact this wasn't done in advance by Mont St Anne is crazy. The fact that the event organization didn't require it is damn near criminal.

 @AntiGrav87: i guess youre embarrassed that hes right. Keep f&#kin that chicken bud. Canada= #1 in quality of life,again. US=17th only 3 spots up from china #winning

 @vjunior21: not sure if its still there, but across the bridge , that goes to the falls, there is a little used road on the left that goes behind the bush into a secluded field. Literally 2 minutes from the p lot and perfect for a heli pad. Might not be there now. Stealth camping when i did msa in 95

 The scenario is frightening itself but imagine someone suffers a severe head trauma following unconciousness... one would have only a matter of minutes for first advanced life support and only a matter of "few further hours" for potential brain surgery that will decide the outcome of the rest of your life. 4 hours would be devastating. Scary!

 @seraph I was one of maybe 40 people there when the helicopter was trying to land. I am not entirely sure how long it took the pilot to land, as we ended up finding an alternate path down the mountain after about 40 minutes of the helicopter hovering above the landing site trying to set it down on what I would consider very minor gradient. I think the pilot was very inexperienced for this type of situation.

We actually saw where he went down, saw the first responders get him off the track, went up the hill to watch the rest of practice, and as we were coming off the mountain they closed off the trail as a rider was down just after the speed way. Being that it was 3 hours after Brooke went down, I thought it was a new rider that crashed and was getting air lifted. Completely unacceptable for them to take this long.

 @pittman9: that is pretty normal in places like Mt.St.Anne. Pilot as well as ground personnel are inexperienced because they have no opportunity to gain such experience. If you go to Val Di Sole, there are plenty of army looking medics set along the track, all looking like ready to either save someone’s life or take it. That is because it’s 1. Alps and 2. Trentino, a quasi military stare where every second Paramedic or Fire fighter is not only trained to be, but also enjoys being a tough ass on the mountain.

As much as I find it sad what happened, same would happen in many places on Earth. Ot holler than thou I am pretty sure Sweden is such example. Not sure how would it go in Hafjell, Norway either.

Another factor is also the fact that mountain biking is a silly little hobby unlike Alpine skiing, with World Cups having hundreds of thousands of viewers in front of TVs across the globe. If such Fk up happened in giant Slalom in Keutz-freaking-buhel, all staff would get fired, so they are making sure they know their shit.

 @Mntneer: amen and thank you for your service ????????

 @AntiGrav87: as a nation youve sunk so low. I can empathize, must be embarassing. Murican 69 = you lick Dumps balls while he blows smoke up your ass and lifts your wallet #thoughtsandprayersbro

 Heal up fast Brook! Really hope there is a better evac plan in place for race day

 : @BudGreen: you could not be more wrong about the beer and the mexican food. I'll give you the avocados

 @Endurip: The EWS has their shit together so well they got their number one rider suspended for taking medication from a volunteer doctor.

 @bulletbassman: You mean the race that was not an EWS event? How is all this related?

 @vinay: cuz socialism

 @Shartriloquist: "We can't be too harsh as he was given an IV drip of high quality syrup while awaiting transport."

Phunniest comment on PB in a long time!

 @WAKIdesigns: cuz fox "news" ("liberal" use of the word "news" and debatable whether or not it could be called news)

 @WAKIdesigns: pretty sure fox has called ebola a socialist policy

 @won-sean-animal-chin: for pay camp site this year.

 @mikemax99: damn hit the minus by mistake

 @vjunior21: makes sense. Soo close . A friend showed me. Her and i had tgat whole plot amongst tge trees to ourselves. Prime real estate. A tarp strung over both our vans to have our cooking/chilling zone shelter was mint. Unbelievzble actually it was so close. EZ stagger back from the mega after party or a quick dip at tge falls

 Does a anyone remember what happened to Johny Waddle back in 2003 at MSA? I vaguely remember similar issues around emergency first aid back then? You would think they would not have any issues with retrieving riders after what happened in back in 2003.

 @WAKIdesigns: You are right but I think the point is that a serious organization as uci is supposed to be, for a 4-days event, or whatever did it takes, rent an helicopter with proper medic team that is able to do such a rescue because in this n days with respect to the whole year you will have an high risk of serious injuries in a very localized place.

 @herbertmarcusavich: even crazier... we hosted the BME finals here in Aspen/Snowmass, and we had a heli on-site, medevac-staffed, and they moved it across the hill from one stage to the next, as the days progressed... BME is regional... nothing compared to World Champs. C'mon UCI. Athletes deserve so much better than this...

 Gtfo. go get your heel spurs looked at.

 @BudGreen: “Noodles! Tail Bud Green to Mr. Big!!!”

 serious question, was the northstar helicopter there on training days before the race?

 I'm sorry I accidentally down voted you. Big fingers small phone screen. Terrifying. Thankful he regained feeling in his legs. Hoping for the best for the Bulldog. Heavy stuff.

 I am more interested in result of the surgery than the whole show. Hope he can recover from that.

 @WAKIdesigns: From his IG post today, he’s got some rods and screws in his back, and he says he’ll try to walk tomorrow. I guess this means he regained sensation and control of his legs. Thank goodness.

 @sngltrkmnd: yeah just saw it. That’s damn good News. It’s been the most injury infested season ever and it’s not over yet...

 My god that sounds awful. Brook the Bulldog doesn’t scream for no reason. That whole scene sounds horrific.

 You never rush onto a scene. Be composed, assess everything, be ready and calm. That being said, I didn't see how slow they were moving so...

 @BrianColes: you can move quickly and be composed during emergency medical situations, but you need to be fit

 @mcase83 good first responders always move slowly and calmly. You should be worried if you see first responders freaking out and running. Also I’m sure they were moving at a slower pace so that they were not totally gased once they arrived on scene and so they would be composed and ready to help Brook.

 @caradock: agreed. Most people won't understand.

 @caradock: 100% you'll never see a paramedic running

 As the others are saying medics are supposed to be composed, but consider that a DH course is also very hard to hike in some cases.

 Mate, paramedics/rescue personnel will NEVER run to a scene.

It's the old "take the time to roll a cigarette."

If they die because you walked, they were going to die anyway. You've got to be composed to handle the situation.

 @EnduRowan: not really true. Cardiac arrest/choking/drowning and so on requires a fast response; 20s can be difference between life and death in these cases.

 ive been a first responder for 20 years and I have never seen a paramedic run! - to anything. Even cardiac. Its called the ‘danger walk’. You cant help others if your taken down yourself by the victims cause. Equally you tunnel vision and loose focus on the whole picture and don't see other casualties. As the saying goes “less haste more speed”.
Cant comment on this incident but long evac times for critical injury is not uncommon if breathing and blood loss are managed. Your in no rush. Stabilise the casualty and get your ducks in a row first.

 @BigAlfonz: no. Thats what brook said. When his spinal nerves are in trouble, they might transmit all sorts of strange infos to the brain.

 @ilovedust: good to here a expert . Get a bit passed off with the knee jerk experts

 @ilovedust: we had a terrible looking crash at Glencoe, Scottish champs last weekend.
It was witnessed by the paramedics on track, they ran up the track to the casualty, the patients mum who is a hospital worker also ran to the her son from the opposite direction, the ambulance was called straight away and the person who had crashed was eventually taken from the local hospital in air ambulance. Reports later was that he was thankfully fine. It was a high speed, big crash off the step down at Glencoe by an expert racer.
There was no hesitation from the paramedics who work at the SDA events.
Maybe the terrain around the crashes made it easier for quick access at the bottom of Glencoe.
Paramedics fo run...
These guys do everything from high level rugby to Dh and are all paramedics and doctors as a profession.

 Those stumps should have been removed weeks ago. So he's got feeling back in his legs now?

 tbh the response at glencoe I thought was very poor, the Marshall didn’t flag the previous crash and that’s definitely what put jack off, the medics were slow but everyone’s commented on why that was , not 4hrs slow right enough

 @BrianColes: exactly! You don't wanna panic, run down the hill and break an ankle

 @ilovedust: 5 year First Responder here. absolutely nailed it dude.

 @caradock:

 @ilovedust: I have to disagree. Combat medicine has led to advancements in the civilian sector that allow people to survive situations when they would typically die

Running full out for a few minutes to someone with a closed airway to use a King LT, being exhausted and stopping multiple bleeding points with more than just TQs, getting blown up in a bomb only to have to use a sternal IO to save a critical patient, etc.

I've been in all of these situations, and more, and can attest to the fact that a well trained and fit medical professional can administer aid and be exhausted all the while. Training, training, and more training allow you to succeed when you're smoked.

I think that civilian first responders need more money for training and held to a higher standard for fitness, especially ones who are out on the side of a mountain

 @mcase83: I am certified as a Wilderness First Responder and licensed as an EMT and all of my medical training days stay calm and don't become a second victim. If the track was steep and/or coming off of a jump then the Responder needs to also be thinking about their own safety.

 @Dominomac: What was wrong with the response at Glencoe, there was a medic there in about 20 seconds and equipment within a couple of minutes. As they assessed the situation they called for more equipment.
Riders were good and observant and stayed away from the scene, the finish area was cleared, including the barriers to allow for easy access. The ambulance was there very quickly, far quicker than a trip from Fort William, so it must have been parked up not far away which with the amount of walkers on the mountains and the race on is understandable and good planning.
I dont know what put him off, I heard he might have been blown sideways off the fly off.
The rules would normally have it that there should not have been a red flag for someone being off track.
The crash could have been much worse than it was, he was lucky. And a photographer got the whole thing on camera, cant believe they put it on R&R though!

 I want to upvote this but the reality is they are piss poor at making a sanction on a doping case in a reasonable amount of time as well.

 @dmock157: at a US race the event organizers would have had to pay for a helicopter to be there on standby. They didn't bother here which is on them. The healthcare system is for tax paying citizens, not for professional athletes. Search and rescue, which is not part of the free healthcare system, and the event organizers, also not part of the free healthcare system, are responsible.

 @dmock157: read the article, it was the emergency response system, not the healthcare system.

 But what could the UCI have done in this case? Besides probably not giving the Worlds to a site that might not be up to it?

 @endurogoat: gaslighting burns through facts. That's the beauty of it. So many lost souls.
Thoughts are with Bulldog.

 @dmock157: You continually try to make this point but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, so stop regurgitating idiotic propaganda. There are plenty of universal healthcare systems that will respond in a proper way- just look at any country in the Alps. Mountain rescue is basically a daily occurrence with some of the best heli pilots in the game. When they aren't able to land and extract the victim, they lower down a medic on a winch to do it. The fact of the matter is that MSA organizers and/or the UCI screwed up. They made piss poor emergency protocols and the privately contracted evac couldn't get to Brook as quickly as they should have. Let's just hope Brook can pull through and beat this.

 I can't downvote you enough

 @dmock157: I can't downvote you enough

 UCI make excuses, and like most big organizations, there will be NO personal accountability. Nothing will change, and no one will lose their job.

 @dmock157: a*shole

 this doesn't even remotely apply. drug testing is handled by WADA or the regional branch of WADA (i.e. USADA in the states). you're comparing apples to oranges. the event organizer (who is NOT the UCI) is the one who was required to set up adequate medical/emergency response. they simply put in a bid to host the event and the UCI approves it (and sends officials/staff/etc). there are minimum requirements for safety (certain venues can't host UCI events for this reason) and i'm sure the MSA organizers thought they had them covered, but clearly there was a large gap in coverage. this is the event organizer's fault.

 When you have grown up on tales of the Big Bad Bear sleeping under everyone's bed, it is very easy to see where these thoughts on socialism come from.
Add in the past few years of Russiagate and a media that is legally allowed to use propaganda on it populace and it gets to what we see today. Long term propaganda exposure & correctional thinking from a very young age leads to national paranoia. A socialist society is not communism and not everything in the world needs to have a dollar value put against it seeking a profit.

 Lots of commies on PB @JohanG:

 @BDKR: anyone who states their point and follows it with "Any argument against this is an argument against fact and history. To attempt to argue it is to attempt to conceal it" should take note of the last sentence of their own comment.

 @mattradical: do you actually know what a "commie" is?

 @BDKR: Let’s also not forget that the dominant ideology of the Nazi’s was, in fact, fascism. If you’re not aware, that’s the opposite end of the political spectrum.

 @Dropthedebt: In other words, you are acknowledging that I am right by focusing on semantics and diction instead of the assertion that collectivism is a boogeyman and isn't dangerous.

 @Dropthedebt: Do you know what a stawman is?

 "Yeah, we should have a filter for people angry at their money being taken at gunpoint and wasted by incompetent politicians. Definitively it's not something to ever be worked up about."

By JohanG

 @jolvey28: I am aware that it's considered the opposite end. However, I also believe that they both have the same ultimate expression or logical end. For them to say there were Socialist is akin to the proclamation of beliefs by the Bolsheviks. Whether or not either of these two actually believed their own sh1t is besides the point. It's were they both wound up that's important.

 And with that last comment, you'll have to hate on me by yourselves. I should have cared more about the condition of Brook Mac than anything else here.

 @BDKR: would it be similar to a strawman?

 @BDKR: "(communist or socialist or whatever stage in between)". No no no, not any stage in between. The two things have nothing in common with each other.

""Yeah, we should have a filter for people angry at their money being taken at gunpoint and wasted by incompetent politicians. Definitively it's not something to ever be worked up about.""
Capitalism is where politicians take your money at gun point and give it to corporations and billionaires (your current situation).
Socialism is where politicians take your money at gun point and spend it on healthcare, education, infrastructure, etc. Socialism is where they take your tax dollars and spend them on things that are good for you! How in the world could you possibly be against that??

 @friendlyfoe: Based on the number of up votes, there are others that are also either lying or ignorant as well.

Pretty simple really...

1. Primitive communal society
2. Feudalism
3. Capitalism
4. Socialism
5. Communism

Capitalism being a stage BEFORE Socialism and Communism is an absolute must in the same way that dog or a deer is an absolute must for a tick. Marx understood that without the Capitalist stage there would be no resources to power the Socialist and Communist stages.

Which is also precisely why tired maxims like "Socialism is where they take your tax dollars and spend them on things that are good for you! How in the world could you possibly be against that??" are so misleading. Nevermind the fact that you can't get away from the word, "take" in the above sentence. That sentence is an analog too "I'm going to steal your 5hit for your own good".

IF there was some benevolence to the system, it would allow you to opt out. But it can't. Too many would see through it and make the decision to not participate.

Back to the discussion of stages... You can see in the Wiki page on communism (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism) that Marx himself "explicitly stated that Russia might be able to skip the stage of bourgeois rule". This is from a "Late Marx and the Russian road: 'Marx and the Peripheries of Capitalism'" by Marc Edelman. Skipping that stage was attempted in both the Soviet Union and China, but doing so meant murdering millions to make it work.

You guys can dress this 5h1t up all you want but you're essentially just polishing a turd.

 @BDKR: Your logical fallacy is that the steps between 1 - 5 are all equal and that there has to be a progression from one to the next. There's no reason why a society can't bump around between 3/4. As an example it would be impossible to build roads and have public education without taxation of the whole to do things that actually help fuel capitalism. So if you want to go live in the woods I'm sure there are places in the world you can do that. The rest of us are going to continue building civilization. Thanks

 @friendlyfoe: LOL.... While this is a distraction from whether or not Sociallism/Communism is the same, I'll play along.

1) Any idea about the size of the steps relative to each other is not mine. Those belong to marx and co.
2) Any idea about the direction of progression through the steps are not mine. Those belong to marx and co.
3) Did I say we'd be unable to build roads and schools with taxation? I'm pretty sure I didn't, but guess what?
4) We managed to build roads, schools, and even a military before the IRS and Federal taxation. To put a point on it, we experienced tremendous growth in the years between 1812 and 1840 WITHOUT an IRS and Central Bank.

That said, you IGNORED the fact that marx himself talked about skipping a stage! The logical take away here is that "HE" believed in the stages and a particular direction of progression through them. Why did you ignore this?

 @Dropthedebt: Let's not kid ourselves here. There has not been a more efficient system for mass murder than collectivist systems (communist or socialist or whatever stage in between). The collectivist ideologies adopted by Mao and Stalin have together put nearly 100 million in the grave in the last century. That doesn't even include the numbers of Pot and Hitler (try to remember that Nazi is actually a contraction of National Socialism).

Any argument against this is an argument against fact and history. To attempt to argue it is to attempt to conceal it.

And let's not forget antifa while we're opening windows here. The flag antifa flies is clearly and primarily modeled from the Antifaschistische Aktion of the German Communist Party going back to 1932.

Ignorance is an ailment easily fixed.

 @BDKR: posting the same thing again doesn't enforce your point anymore.
I could spend a long time listing capitalist wars and the body counts of both combatant & civilian or comparing leaders & ideologies but as the great criminal mastermind Hillary once said, "what does it matter?"
It comes down to what kind of society do you want to live in? Is it one where everyone is just out for themselves? Keep 100% of everything you earn and get a service, every service, by paying at point of use & screw everyone else.
or do you want to live in a society where everyone contributes to provide services for everyone? I live in a country with social health care. Is it perfect? No but on the occasions I've needed medical help, some very serious and running at over £300,000; I didn't have to worry about medical bills because I've contributed a couple of £s a week.
If by unfortunate chance I lose my job or illness befalls me and I am unable to work there is a safety net that means I can still get by until I am able to work again. Is it perfect?? No but people are looked after because we all contribute a couple of £s a week.
In this capitalist world there are always going to be people who do better than others. Some via hard work, others through family or connections. What about those who don't have anything. Not through being lazy or feckless but through circumstance or bad fortune? Do we just abandon them or do we help them? Personally I want to live in a society where we help each other and in doing so, grow as human beings. If that costs me a few £s a week then that's fine by me. You can label it with any fancy name you like but at the end of the day, as the sun goes down ask yourself one simple question, "Am I here to help myself or here to help everyone."

 @Dropthedebt: This dude seems to have his talking points memorized and that's about it. Quotes Marx to defend his points then says they aren't his words.

Saying the way things worked 200 years ago is proof those concepts worked now is a logical fallacy. Also not sure who started talking about Antifa other than him? Lame

 @Dropthedebt: Posting the same thing isn't an effort to increase efficacy. The fact that things can be down-voted to a point they are no longer seen is a quality of this board that isn't conducive to fair debate.

That said, I actually agree to a LARGE percentage with much of what you said after that. Seriously! A good look at history helps provide a clearer of picture of just how bad Western Europe and the US have behaved since 1900. And then there is economic policy (which is essentially class warfare), which is FAR MORE illuminating when looking for the answer as to why the rich are steadily getting richer while the numbers of poor and homeless continue to increase dramatically.

All that to say that it's not as simple as Capitalist vs Socialist.

And just to chuck in one more nugget, why can't groups of individuals practice socialism together within a Democratic Republic? At that point IT IS benevolent. It still allows the individual the choice to opt out as opposed to distant coercive management that at it's worst has resulted in the murder of millions.

What I'm describing is something like Anarcho-Syndicalism with the revolutionary bu115h1t stripped out. The fun fact here is that this is PERFECTLY LEGAL under the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. In other words, collections of individuals CAN own their own production and do whatever they want regarding wage. The REAL FIGHT is in making sure politicians don't try to take that away from you via bu115h1t economic policy decisions. Negative interest rates are a perfect example.

@friendlyfoe: Talking points? The short little description for my profile says, "Computer programmer, writer/researcher, musician, and car nut". It hasn't changed since I got here and was essentially true for some time before I joined in 2011. So don't you think someone that's interested in history, economic history, empire, and geopolitics is going to have something to say? They're hardly talking points when not a week goes by when you not considering them.

As for "Quotes Marx to defend his points then says they aren't his words"....
LOL!!!!
LOL!!!!
LOL!!!!

OF COURSE they're not my words. I QUOTED someone else!

media.makeameme.org/created/cmon-man-zqvtxt.jpg

As for "Saying the way things worked 200 years ago is proof those concepts worked now is a logical fallacy".
What things are talking about in particular? Our current economic system? Comparing the two is logical fallacy, which is what you are doing out of what I think is honest ignorance. The capitalism then was far more "real" then it is today. Every "honest" economist or historian will acknowledge that what we have today is keynesianism/crony capitalism. A closer look at that system reveals that it's designed to rob you via inflation.

But who would know this? Nobody is taught or studies the history of economic policy and the effects it has on the poor and middle class. It's not a dig against you. It's just the fact.

On Antifa: It was in direct response to something said earlier in this thread by Dropthedebt: "When you have grown up on tales of the Big Bad Bear sleeping under everyone's bed, it is very easy to see where these thoughts on socialism come from".

As a response to that, my inclusion of Antifa isn't strange at all.

 so how is Socialist Austria doing in such an event:
"for any official artificial bike trail, there need to be emergercy rescue concepts including digital GPS meeting/reviewing points, vehicle access roads, potential landing areas for helicopters, etc."
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugrettung_in_%C3%96sterreich
We have 39 air rescue stations (compared to the size of Canada, this would be around 4000...).


And it works - for a friend of mine, a helicopter was there in less than 20min.

 Later EMT's searching the crash site for evidence strangely only found sand...

 That section of track is now even harder now there’s a massive crater from the impact

 What mountain?

 Breaks my heart too. I am in the same boat with a T12 complete spinal cord injury after a crash.

It puzzles me why this entire comment section is full of all kinds of discussion about the quality of the aid and healthcare given on the spot. Wow, this really isn't what this accident is about. This accident is about Brooke and how he comes out of this. All a lot of you can do is speculate on other things you don't know anything about and use this story for your own little pleasure of bashing healthcare, countries as a whole, first aid workers, authorities and -yes offcourse- the UCI?

Get a life.

 @jeroenk: people are discussing the quality of care and response time because we all love Brook and it’s infuriating that the ball was dropped here. He shouldn’t have had to wait that long for an evac. Really doubt most people are using this story “for their own pleasures” but then again your the guy leaving a comment lecturing other people on what they should and shouldn’t comment.

 @pm148: You're right, I overreacted. From the top of the comment sections all I read was a blame game. A lot of 'Brooke get well soon' and then a lot of text about who should have acted differently by people that were not there.

It just seemed out of proportion and not just a bit. Everyone is entitled to their own comments and a lot of good points about the rescue were made.

 @pm148: people are using it to wheel out their favourite Made in USA conspiracy theories about "socialism", whatever they think they mean by that. And if they aren't getting some kind of dopamine hit from doing so, then I'm living in a communist dictatorship. Either that or it's a Pavlovian reaction to any mention of Canada. Both are likely to be true. f*ck these people.

 @BenPea: where are you seeing this? Maybe they’ve been downvoted to oblivion but I scrolled through a lot of comments and haven’t seen that. I have seen a few people from other countries(not USA) touting their faster response times or better planning but no socialism conspiracies

 Yep, downvoted to oblivion - to the tune of 120 DVs in one case. Just the obligatory web weirdos, so not to fret, but these are the idiots aiding and abetting successful political fuckery in various countries, so it's good whack-a-mole practice.

 I've had a friend heli'ed out in BC with a broken collar bone, (something I used to walk out of the bush with.) We explained that the road in to the scene was 10kms of 4wd road and the break was near his neck. "No problem!" Was the response and a helicopter landed 45minutes later. Free service. May be different in Quebec.

 To be fair switzerland is one of the more organised countries out there

 I watched "Air Zermatt" on RedBull TV. Nuts, they were air lifting skiers with broken arms and ankles off the mountain! In the US, you'd get hauled to ski patrol, given and ice pack, and told to take an Uber to the doctor.

 @dthomp325: if a mountaineer has a broken arm, the helicopter will surely come, if the arm is broken on the ski slope, the helicopter will not come;-)

The best-known company in Switzerland is Rega. Many Swiss are patrons there.
www.rega.ch/en/support-rega/faq.aspx

When you've grown up with this system, you sometimes forget that it's not the same everywhere in the first world.

 I think pretty much everywhere prioritizes life threatening injuries, but it's worth noting that Quebec has a different SAR protocol than the rest of the country. The delay is definitely concerning, and I'm glad they've updated the protocols for tomorrow.

 Well the article kind of explains it. It’s a different service responding depending on wether it’s life threatening or not. Life threatening it’s the army, otherwise it’s the private service.

 @brianpark: So true.. Having grown up in the Ottawa region and frequenting Quebec for downhill biking (mind you 15 years ago) I can remember filling out numerous waivers on the Ontario side for DH biking at ski hills yet the Quebec side was waiverless and cash only... Not to be obnoxious but we always called it QUEBEXICO because it was literally like another country once you crossed from Ontario to Quebec.

Lets hope this is not life altering for Brook and he makes a full recovery

 @slickwilly1: sad turn of events but let’s avoid stereotypes. Thoughts are with Brook.

 @brianpark: life flights aren't really SAR operations, especially when a company is contracted to fly what is essentially a rotary winged ambulance.

It sounds like they wanted to save money and didn't have the pilot reserved. He was probably off eating a hamburger near the pad when he got the call.

 @Mntneer: Or they called Him at home...

 @Mntneer: that is exactly what it I thought. This sounds less like an emergency response and more like a plot in a Pink Panther movie.

 @brianpark: Quebec has a different protocol for just about everything in life....

 @dmock157: wut?

 @dmock157: Seriously!? This man just suffered a spinal injury and you're babbling on about your hate for socialism!?!? Shut the f@$% up idiot

 Yeah, Motorsports might be a good point of reference for where DH stands these days... feels a little like Rallye racing back in the day, those group B monsters blasting by people standing only a few centimeters off track, speeds getting higher every year, and everybody involved saying “yeah, you could see that coming”.., after the fact.

 Let’s hope the 1199 track in whistler is built soon.

 Yep, any time there is ALOC or loss of sensation due to an injury it is a life threatening condition. It's always better to send the world and downgrade if it turns out an injury isn't life threatening.

 This track is mega gnarly and the bikes are so good now that top riders are carrying so much speed that a crash into a rock garden is almost guaranteed to be carnage. Quickly becoming one of the most dangerous sports on the planet.

 You're right. The Detonations are kinda getting closer.
Dont know what it is. 29ers pushing speeds, Competitive racers pushing everybody just a tiny bit more to the edge, sponsor expectation?...
Hope rampage goes by without anything beyond torn ligaments.

 I think it’s a mix of bikes getting better, competition getting closer, riders improving, all leading to higher speeds... It feels like yesterday that Steve Peat dominated the competition, sometimes winning by several seconds despite looking a little hung over from the night before... these days, when someone is down half a second at split one, another half a second by split two, at split three you will hear Claudio say something like “yeah, he could still be in for a top ten finish...” it’s all gotten so close, speeds so incredibly fast, there simply is not much margin for error left. In women’s World Cup this year, in the end the overall was already decided mainly by who was lucky enough not to hurt themselves.

Coming from a Motorsport background, I expect there will come a time, when either the rules or the tracks will have to be changed in order to make DH less dangerous in the face of what a top rider on a top bike is able to do today.

 @FuzzyL: it'll happen. Question is whether a live broadcast fatal accident is required.
If I see a wheelchair or coffin accident on rampage or dh wc, I'm off. Dont wanna see people destroy their life for not even much money.
I think Lenzerheide might have made the right move by re taping some sections. They didn't want to risk bad media due to a neck breaker in the Rock garden. Sam hills crash in 2014 worlds comes to mind.

 @xice: Paul Bassioga, Rampage 2015. He's back on his feet now but just by the skin of his shins.

 Ski WC is a mainstream sport with $$$ in it ..... dh wc is a ninche sport

 yes he was as it is mandatory at this race.

 @wynmasters: Thanks for that update Wyn. I was wondering if the riders had to wear back protection or not. Hopefully that helped him in this situation.

 Back protectors only protect against impact, while many serious spinal injuries are cause by over compression or extension.

 They can pump him full of steroids to reduce traumatic swelling. Time is of the essence. Ever hear of the golden hour? More current protocol is no backboard, they can create problems depending upon where the injury is. If I we’re his family I would get flown to a hospital in New York right away. Better trauma teams for this.

 This is pinkbike *cough* saltybike, what do you expect? any reason for some online outrage nowdays and people are all over it, quite the thing when you are behind a keyboard with nothing better to do.

 No! As stated above the industry is moving away from spine boards ESPECIALLY when a patient is likely to be immobilized on them for a significant time. See study here- natajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.4085/1062-6050-462-17
I’m not suggesting that a spine board shouldn’t have been used in this situation, but you saying that once Brook was immobilized theres no rush, is simply incorrect.

A code 3 response is defined by ‘life or life changing injuries’ -Brook certainly comes in this category with a spinal injury with deficits- and should be rapid transport.

There is no excuse here to not have Brook packaged up and moving downhill within 30mins (ish) of having the first responder on scene.

Also, if in doubt- a first responder can make it a code three rapid transport call, there is never any harm in getting someone to the hospital faster, and the call can always be downgraded if patient is trending well.

If a heli isn’t option, due to availability, weather etc then that’s ok, get moving downhill conventionally-truck, ATV or even simply being carried in a litter are all much better options than sitting there going nowhere. Having said this, a heli most certainly should be available for an event like this!

P.S this is my job, and deal with spinal injuries weekly.

 I walked the course during the qualification yesterday and it is truly nasty, the drop he fell off from is the hardest feature of the whole race. Hope he's gonna be fine

 Honestly, before learning how to stabilize à potential spinal injury. Everybody can think to secure area before the bike patrol is coming... and more important, do not remove helmet if you dont know how to do it... don't give water to the victim...

 That is why we have first aid..

 Seems logical when you first think about it but the reality is that even as dangerous as DH racing is there is still probably a much greater chance that the helicopter is needed for some other emergency situation somewhere else. People are getting sick or injured in all types of ways, all the time, every day. If one was available it would make sense to have one, but priority wise a DH race probably isn’t at the top if availability is limited.

 @sino428: I think hiring a heli for one weekend where hundreds of people are participating in an incredibly dangerous sport should be a priority.

 @wpplayer18: I never said it wouldn’t be the right thing to do if a helicopter was available to be at the mountain on standby. I just don’t know if that’s the case there. My only point was that even as dangerous as DH racing is, if availability was limited, a DH race is probably still less likely to need a helicopter than the general public.

 @sino428: you're completely right, but you're replying to mountain bikers on a mountain biking thread. the apparent theme of this thread is no one can see the bigger picture. there are a limited number of medical aircraft in quebec and it is completely self centered to think that one should be taken out of service for non life threatening injuries at a bike race.

 downhill is not an olympic sport.

 How many other spinal or life threatening injuries have there been in dh over the years? Look at f1 and car racing in general before they got their safety standards properly sorted. Things normally have to go wrong before an organisation realises and gets its act together. And to be fair the problem probably lies with quebec. If this had happened in switzerland im sure it would have been a very different story.

 @zyoungson: totally agree man that it prob would be differnt elsewhere the point i was trying to make was mt b needs to learn from these other sports and have a standard procedure in place for each event. It's simple risk assessment.
Anyways key thing is lessons are learned and Brook heals up good and soon.

 Sam hill doing a head plant at world champs in 2014 is a classic example

 A neck brace is only really good for the C section of your spine where most riding injuries are around the T section

 Ignorant comment... they’re on a steep, rough mountain, there was no safe way to get a spinal injury off the mountain safely. I was there and watching the quads with the litter and spine board bounce around it would’ve been unsafe to use anything other than a heli. The whole affair was brutal and very bush league.
Hope he heals up strong!

 @YkAkD: North American medical equipment suppliers are great at selling gadgets like patient evac trailers for atvs. They look and sound great in theory, but aren't nearly as effective in the real world. The best way to get a spine injury down through rough terrain usually involves a stokes litter or similar and a large team of trained people to carry it.

 @YkAkD: Fair enough...didn't consider them landing the heli at the injury location and figured they would have transported him down the mountain in 4 hours...with a spinal injury I would imagine you minimize the movement...still doesn't excuse the time it took

 @ross005: tbh the pilot could probably be there and land in 45 minutes but you know what modern life is like, it probably required 17 different method statements and release forms to be voted on by a committee of health and safety ‘experts’ who have never even seen a helicopter before they could then check the flight crew was diverse enough and audit the medics for PTSD potential in case they have to actually use the stretcher.

 @tobiusmaximum: calm down clarkson

 @ross005: I totally agree, they were maybe an hour walk up the mtn. They weren’t even letting people walk by after it happened, because they were expecting the heli any time. Just piss poor organizing and communication. Glad Bulldog’s doing good, considering.

 @johnnyboy11000: it’s just a joke dear.