First Look: BREW Nitro Shox - Eurobike 2015

Aug 29, 2015
by Mike Levy  
Eurobike 2015


BREW Nitro Shox

If you're thinking that the BREW Nitro Shox looks homemade, that's because it is. However, this is the only Nitro Shox in the world at this point in time, and you shouldn't let its unfinished appearance put you off: there's some tricky things going on inside that its designer, Joe Hunter, is saying puts it head and shoulders above what we're all used to riding. It might also look a bit familiar because it's the latest incarnation of the fabled Millyard damper that, while showing great promise, seemed to fade into obscurity for reasons apparently unrelated to its performance. Hunter has been re-working the design with big intentions in mind, and even taking it as far as the MotoGP paddock where a different iteration of the design has been put to use, although he can't legally divulge by what team or riders.

Moving back to the mountain bike world, Hunter went on to say that back-to-back timed runs comparing the Nitro Shox with an unnamed production shock showed that their test rider was consistently ten percent faster with the BREW damper on his bike. Claims aside, while the internal bits of the Nitro Shox sound like they're actually less complicated than what's used by suspension companies these days, it still takes a bit to grasp how the very different layout of the BREW shock works.



Here's the basics

The first thing to understand is that the BREW shock uses a completely different layout than a traditional design that we're used to seeing from FOX, RockShox or anyone else, with it being based on the same principles as the oleo struts that were first employed on tanks and the landing gear of airplanes for many, many years. Ol-what, you ask? An oleo damper is relatively simple compared to a complicated mountain bike or motorbike shock: on one end there's a pressurized chamber (filled with nitrogen in the case of the Nitro Shox, hence its name) that's separated from the damping oil by a piston that we'd usually refer to as an IFP (short for Internal Floating Piston). An important thing to note is that the nitrogen charge in the BREW shock actually acts as the spring, whereas the pressurized chamber on the opposite side of the IFP is only used to provide back-pressure and room for oil displacement on a traditional shock.

Now let's pretend we're riding the Nitro Shox: when your rear wheel hits a bump and the shock is compressed, the damping oil pushes on the the IFP and the nitrogen charge is compressed - this gives you your spring rate. On the opposite end of the shock is a tapered metering pin that aligns with a bleed hole on the metering / damping orifice, and this is what determines the amount of pressure that's applied to the IFP and the nitrogen charge. This means that it's able to supply as much spring force as required when there's a massive impact, but then also bleed off that pressure as needed. In short, it provides both a non-linear spring rate and damping force that allows it to react in a way that a standard shock would never be able to, and, according to Hunter, in a way that gives the rider more control.
Eurobike 2015
The single red dial adjusts both compression and rebound in unison, although the shock's damper is said to be able to auto-adjust either way to a degree.

So that's the gist of an oleo damper, but BREW have made a few vital changes to get the system working well for mountain bikes. ''The BREW shock absorber differs from the conventional oleo suspension unit by incorporating two patented designs,'' explains Hunter. The first is where he's located the damper assembly, moving it from the damper rod to the end of the shock in order to integrate an adjustment dial or two. The second patent involves a way of changing the pressure of the nitrogen charge in order to adjust the shock's spring rate - the prototype shown here doesn't allow a rider to do that.



Less Adjustments

The current Nitro Shox damper doesn't allow the rider to fiddle with much in the way of adjustments, and while Hunter believes that this is for the better, he is looking at more user-tuneable models for down the road. The anodized blue prototype pictured here, the model that BREW is looking to put into production first, doesn't even allow the rider to adjust the spring rate, with it being set at the factory to your weight, riding style and bike model. That is going to sound insane to a lot of us - it did to me, to be honest - but the design and function of this first shock doesn't permit that. He is working on a future model that sports a piggyback, not for oil displacement, though, but to serve as home for a type of volume adjustment that would allow for spring rate tuning.


BREW Nitro Shox
A rendering of a Nitro Shox with separate rebound and compression adjustments.
BREW Nitro Shox
The red coloured piggyback is a design that allows for spring rate adjustment, most likely by changing the volume, although Hunter wasn't keen to explain it.


The single red dial on this shock is going to leave some riders with idle hands, with it being using to adjust both compression and rebound damping. This is an entirely different sort of thing to what we're used to, though, with the somewhat limited range being accented by the shock being able to "auto adjust" the amount of damping that's applied by roughly ten to twenty percent in each direction (Hunter didn't want to supply exact figures on this). Hunter does have plans to offer a shock with separate rebound and compression dials as well, although he sounded a bit skeptical as to if the design really called for allowing riders to tinker with these settings in that way.

I've left Eurobike without a Nitro Shox damper in my bag, but Hunter is aiming to have a finished test unit shipped out to Pinkbike within the next few months. Right now, after reading all of the above, I can understand the skepticism that might be present about the design. Not being able to adjust the shock's spring rate? A single dial to tune both compression and rebound? It all sounds a bit out there to me, but sometimes it takes a wholesale change in what we know to be able to take the next step (or leap) forward. We'll see.

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179 Comments
  • 182 4
 Ten percent faster... Either that's a load of shit, or mountain bike racing is about to change.
  • 112 26
 I think that's a load of shit.
  • 106 11
 He's clearly not saying that everyone would be faster, but claiming that this one rider was, just to clarify.
  • 9 22
flag vl95 (Aug 29, 2015 at 3:02) (Below Threshold)
 so instead of a run in , lets say 3:00 .... it will magically become 2:42 ? we got the answer here haha
  • 162 5
 that looks like a 5 dollar marijuana pipe
  • 14 1
 If the rider was super stoked about this new nitro shock, then it could be like a placebo effect giving him an extra psychological boost to be faster. Ten percent is quite a lot though.
  • 27 3
 @mikelevy Right, but the entire idea of him throwing out that figure was to give you a measurable improvement that you can attribute to the shock, not the rider, since it was supposed to be the only variable in his "experiment". So theoretically he's implying that every rider should be 10% faster regardless of skill level, just by using this shock.
  • 10 20
flag faul (Aug 29, 2015 at 6:41) (Below Threshold)
 If it's a speed trap it's not impressive. Like 30 to 33 km/h
  • 3 1
 LOS
  • 21 0
 Checks calendar.....hmmm....not april 1st.....
  • 25 1
 Let me put 10% faster into perspective. Aaron Gwin won Val di Sole in 2012 by nearly 8 seconds, if he went 10% faster, he would have won by 27 seconds...
  • 31 3
 Obviously none of you have ever ridden on a millyard shock! They fail miserably in the car park test of bouncing up and down as they feel totally undersprung.
Then you get it on a trail and it just eats everything in its path. Without a single stutter or wheeze.
Why they never took off is the 64 million dollar question as the concept behind it is simple engineering at its best.
Do they make your bike 10% faster? In the right hands, probably.
  • 3 18
flag XCMark (Aug 29, 2015 at 10:36) (Below Threshold)
 If the original concept used that blue anno with the ugly orange font, it wouldn't look good on a lot of bikes. And the orange font, disgusting!
  • 2 1
 Am i wrong in thinking that percentages are used in lieu of actual evidence/proof? it cant make that much difference on every type of track???
  • 4 6
 I think it's hilarious how in the past couple years the MTB world is so obsessed with air shocks but moto and off road have been using them YEARS before they hit bicycles. You know what gas they use to charge those shocks? Nitrogen. "Air" has moisture in it which in turn under different temperatures changes the pressure inside the shock. Also nitrogen is just that, nitrogen. It's a pure atmosphere inside the shock or fork, which in turn prevent corrosion. I don't think corrosion is as much of an issue with the materials used in MTB suspension but look at many products the off road industry offers there's a reason to running gas filled shocks vs. air. Now will it make a noticeable difference? Probably not at all to but it does offer consistency.
  • 3 0
 @oldmandan, of course most people havent ridden a millyard shock. how many are there in existence? a handful, if that
  • 4 3
 And VL95 your math reflects a rider going 10% slower. 10% faster would only be a 16.3 second advantage. Just sayin. Didn't want you confusing anyone
  • 4 2
 Oh and referencing Gwin being made 10% faster isn't a realistic correlation. Gwin already makes everything he rides 10% more effective because he is that good. As are most pros. I don't think the performance advantage this shock will provide would translate to 10% in a WC. But I've ridden in front of and behind many guys whose bikes were either tuned way right or tuned way wrong, and been way behind or waiting at the bottom. So could I see a shock that has a perfect tune getting me or others down a four minute downhill 15-20 seconds faster?
Absolutely. Ever feel invincible on a downhill and get smoked by one of your buddies? Helmet already off waiting for you at the bottom? Happens to us all.
  • 2 0
 Kubaner, think you've got it, but most of the others have missed the mark! It is a development prototype at this stage, sure colours and graphics may change - also if it is that good, people will buy it regardless! I won't however as I ride a hardtail. That being said, I can understand the tech behind it working very affectively.
  • 3 0
 Kubaner , when you inprove ( meaning here subtract ) by 10% a run that you usually make in 180sec it's 0,9*180 = 162.
I wasn't talking about the objective speed of the rider .
  • 4 3
 NOPE - I don't buy it. I can't believe that a damper with a single valve and needle can give better individual high and low speed damping than a damper with dedicated low and high speed circuit. That there is a needle that adjusts the apature size with travel doesnt address this. It will be interesting to see this being tested and prooven. There is no evidence to support the claims other some second hand accounts. If oleos were superior to traditional spring and dampers, than someone in F1, WRC, Moto GP, Moto x, or any other high end series would have been exploiting the tech for years already - and they're not.
  • 2 1
 Mojo, bet you've not seen an f1 shock system before? They really are very special and have many extras over a standard shock and spring set up, as they need to uphold masses of stress through cornering forces, but still need not to wallow, thus have in built anti roll mechs that's allow to hold the car without squat, but still have fully active travel and damping. This shock would be totally different in it's use, but couldn't be limited to off road use, as as an infividual component of many, could well be used in more than one scenario. Tanks have used these for decades, so they can't be too shat!
  • 5 0
 yes yes but do you get to choose the color of the sharpee pen they write on it with
  • 6 0
 CL, agree that F1 suspension systems are complex, with anti squat geometry, interlinked pressure systems, inertia dampers, etc, but point is fundamentally they still use spring dampers units basically similar in principle to what's on a raod car or bike - and not an oleo. Argument about usage in tanks meaning they are good is wrong, as the application is very different - mainly the sprung mass of a tank is infinity more then the unsprung mass - somththing not true for racing cars, road cars, MTBs, etc. Also, tanks that used oleos were from decades ago - when they were slow, and passenger comfort was low priority. The fact that all modern tanks switched from oleos to some sort of active damping tech in the name if passenger comfort and high speed ability also kind of supports that they are not all that.
  • 2 0
 Valid point! I'll give you that! I can understand how it could work well though. I suppose I'm just interested to see how it pans out.
  • 1 0
 @Mojo348: They have been tested in Moto GP.
  • 97 2
 I've ridden a Millyard shock and hands down it outperformed any other shock out there. This was also the same conclusion from a certain MTB World Champion who could not at the time be named due to commitments to his sponsors. That original shock went to the Far East for testing with a big name in shock manufacturing. On seeing the results they asked for the machine to be recabillated as they had never seen a shock perform so perfectly. Same test, same great results. I can't go into the full details why this never took off, but if the current manufacturers know there is a new kid on the block and proving everything you are doing is wrong. I'm guessing you may find some resistance in the industry. Discuss..
  • 25 1
 Guessing he same will happen in his industry as it does with the big petrochemicals, buy the company and bury the design. Let's hope not it sounds exciting
  • 16 2
 I'm curious, how can the industry exert pressure on a guy who wants to sell his homemade shocks in the age of the internet and direct sales? It's not like he needs them for anything?
  • 18 5
 Marzocchi should buy into this to keep afloat
  • 25 2
 @Pedro404 - happens all the time.
They don't necessarily need to strong arm the guy like some playground bully, but they could easily purchase the fledgling company to either 1) use the tech themselves, or 2) bury the design. It's also possible for them to play the bully through backhand means. For example a large company could use its production connections to make it difficult for the small innovative person to get the parts or production support they need. Large company could take a litigious route by claiming patent issues (if any exist). They could even be minor claims they don't have any intention of winning; all you need to do is get the person tied up in court spending all their cash, wasting time, and draining their motivation to fight the giant. This DOES happen, in the bike industry, and it's a reason there's a certain brand I don't support.

On the other hand, a large brand could be an angel. They could offer support for certain licensing arrangements, offer to hire the innovator, or simply purchase the designs outright and bring joy to the masses.

...more likely than not, the big guys will do nothing. They only need to sit back, watch and wait. Fox and RS are doing fine in their market. It would take a very long time for someone else to come up with something truly novel. When/if it does appear it's likely to be incredibly expensive. Such niche products, amazing as they might be, rarely reach a wide audience. c.f. the Push Eleven.six shock, which by all accounts is the shiznitz. The $1100 USD price tag keeps this miracle out of the hands and off the bikes of 99% of us. Is it better, probably. Is it so much better that we're willing to fork out the cash? Mostly no. Only the chosen few will experience it. (No I don't have one - I'm still wandering in the desert)
  • 10 1
 "totally never happened before, @si-paton" (Cue Tesla, turns over in his grave)
  • 3 0
 @corvus1: OK, I can see them tying up the small guy in a lawsuit or even purchasing the design and burying it for the sake of milking current shock tech for all it's worth. I just wonder what's changed since Millyard is pursuing this again?
  • 5 1
 What's changed? Likely nothing. If you're the reasonable type that doesn't give into comment vitriol then I'd file under "Neato! Probably never gonna happen but cool if it does." If you're into the conspiracy theories then file under "Big suspension shops are hiding away important game changing tech just to get a buck and screw the riders! Damn the man!"

Really all this suspension junk is a moot point as soon as they figure out how to apply the hover pads from the Back to the Future skateboard to bikes.
  • 3 0
 It seems like there are two camps in these comments: those that shy away from potential innovation because they are comfortable where they are, and those that want the innovation to be brought head on. I prefer the latter, otherwise the industry will remain stagnant.
  • 5 3
 The funny thing is, the shock design has been used for years for tanks. Imagine 60 tons of steel travelling at 50mph across really rough ground. If the design is good enough for that, why not use it for other applications?
As for a big player buying the design, I don't think they could.
  • 2 0
 @corvus1 If hoover bikes ever became a reality, I'd keep riding 26/27.5.
  • 1 0
 @corvus1: that's why we have such things as "bad-faith litigancy" laws (or whatever it translates to) - so that if you're dragged to court just to bully you, without any hope or intent of winning, their "case" gets thrown straight out and they can get charged instead. But we all know how it happens in the *real* world...
  • 1 0
 well oleo struts is not a new tech to the world its used in air-plane landing suspension the only problem is the aircraft's are landing once and not using the suspension so avidly while on DH bike this is the main thing and oleo struts are related with a lot of heat on high performance and uses a high pressure nitrogen charged bladder and oil i will be glad to see it in real applications like a proper DH shock working on 35C outside somehware where the trail is 7-8 min DH abuse ....
  • 3 0
 @si-paton Why so cryptic? Doesnt sound like you have a contract with anyone and there's no rules that you can't say someone's name on the Internet. Who was the pro? Who was the manufacturer? The bicycle illuminati will not come after you, I promise.
  • 1 0
 My money would be on Peaty.
  • 1 0
 @oldmanDan Do you know the make & model name of the tank that you are describing?
  • 3 0
 @varaxis
Bae systems challenger 2 fv4034 features oleo damper struts. Still in use today. That's just one.
That good enough?
  • 1 0
 I think the mtb industry is too small to stifle something like this.We all now know about it; people are now looking forward to the pinkbike test. I'd be very psyched to try one of these, after looking into how they work it seems perfect for a mountain bike.
  • 56 1
 "Left euro bike without a nitro shox damper in my bag" what the hell, we expect you to steal one and do a full report
  • 51 0
 There's certainly a bigger story here than just some tradeshow coverage, so expect more on BREW in the near future.
  • 26 1
 I'm a little disappointed you didn't try and steal it.
  • 7 11
flag pinnityafairy (Aug 29, 2015 at 5:51) (Below Threshold)
 When I see riders on top of the box on this Brew then Ill buy into it. Till them its all hype to me. Best luck Brew. Nice clean look. I like that.
  • 22 0
 so when are you buying the new demo
  • 28 1
 @properp if you rode a millyard shock you would buy into it immediately! The thing with big companies is that when they have been on a certain path for years, and someone comes along with a different approach which proves to be better, they usually turn their noses up at it out of pride.
A perfect example is Mr Dyson, who designed a vacuum cleaner far more efficient than anything else on the market. When he tried to sell his design to the major manufacturers, they laughed at him.
Then an investor helped him out and within a couple of years virtually all of those who refused to buy his design were begging for the license to use it. So he charged them twice as much. And they paid it.
When a game changer is given a chance, big things can happen. Just my 2 cents
  • 13 0
 This shock and the Nicolai / Mojo bike are probably the best things to come out of Eurobike.

These are people that are not afraid to try things differently.
  • 3 0
 You had one job...
  • 1 0
 @oldmanDan I hope it is the GAME changer you speak of. This is PB and every thing on here is the GAME changer. I like the idea of one knob and simple, clean n sleek, and NOT Fox. Its got a cool name also. Till my friends or I get a whirl on one I will still just say its, well how about Best Luck Brew.
  • 33 1
 Steve Millyard scored 2nd fastest through the speed trap at last years final BDS. With all due respect Steve is not even a pro rider yet he carried more speed than all but Marc Beaumont. Go figure that out.. The truth is out there!
  • 9 1
 you tell them Si mate ;-)
  • 27 0
 Whether this pans out or not, awesome to see an individual push for new innovation in a market when lately all a company needs to do is add a climb switch to "update" a product or a new stanchion coating.

I look forward to seeing how this develops and what PB has to say about their test model when received.
  • 23 0
 I remember all the hype around Millyard's creation, there were a lot of admirable design features on those bikes. Aside from the clever stuff going on with the frames (sealed drivetrain etc), the standout thing though was supposed to be the damper, I seem to recall the Millyard offered 'only' 150 mm of travel, yet out performed many 200 mm bikes at the time..? Interesting to see how this new design progresses!
  • 11 2
 It was only 120mm (I think)!
  • 12 0
 The Millyard bike was light years ahead of anything ever made. I am sure the damper was equally as brilliant. And I seem to remember Mr Steve Jones raving about the bike ... I wait with baited breath for your test Mike.
  • 7 0
 Yeah I remember the Steve Jones write up on the Millyard in Dirt Mag a while ago. He did RAVE about the bike and the shock.
  • 3 0
 I've got the Dirt Mag Nov'07 Issue in front of me. 200mm of rear wheel travel on the Millyard. That was probably the most stoked I've ever been on a "backyard build". So much innovation.
  • 4 0
 The other one to check out is Rob Metz carbon Zerode trail bike he made in his garage with a pinion gear box. Its quite a stunning bike but got no press attention.
  • 3 0
 These bike aren't boost so they are irrelevant they are like flared jeans talk to me 10 years ago
  • 8 0
 Dirt article from last year referencing the 150mm travel:
dirtmountainbike.com/features/railroad-millyard-invention.html#8YgD1pLHx6osMZZU.97

Fork Damper article from this year:
dirtmountainbike.com/news/mag-invention-millyards-new-front-damper.html#gTWJAktIMRdPjGXh.97

video referencing 160mm travel:
vimeo.com/11030606
  • 6 0
 ^cheers for the links. I remember reading them with interest.

^^thats why I have absolutely no interest in boost etc as it will all be irrelevant once we're riding gearbox bikes. Hub flanges will be wide and wheels stronger
  • 3 0
 Yeah never seen the video, but was always turbo hyped on the bike. Amazing watching the handlebars, they stay completely level!!!!! But the bike is moving all over underneath him. Fantastic kit, it really is. Cannot explain how much I'd like one!!
  • 2 0
 MmmBones, Thanks for the links.

For clarification, the Millyard from Dirt #69 (200mm travel) doesn't have a single sided swing arm. After seeing the one from the link above, I remember the mono-arm from back in the day as well.There was likely a few iterations with different travel numbers.
  • 1 0
 It'd be interesting to see how a millyard shock would work on on an XC or AM bike.
  • 3 0
 I can't help but wonder how much of that had to do with the sprung weight of the bike helping to smooth out the trail chatter. Increasing the sprung weight can help suspension performance in the same way that decreasing the unsprung weight does. That thing looks like it weights 50 lbs.
  • 7 0
 Reading all the comments its sounds like a lot of people would like to see a Millyard shock. We have had no affiliation with the making of the Nitro Shox so don't expect it to perform in the same way!
  • 1 0
 millyard

didnt Joe Hunter design the Millyard Shock for you?
  • 7 0
 @saxokev

Joe approached us in 2006 with designs for the challenger tank suspension which was then scaled down to fit a downhill bike. My dad and I did a lot of further development work in getting it race ready and to the point its at now. we were unaware that Joe had been working on a downhill shock so without seeing the design or test riding the shock I cant comment on the performance. Who knows, the Brew might work better! Would love to do some back to back runs and see how they compare.
  • 3 0
 @millyard not just the shock, we want to see the whole bike!! I'm also curious about the fork damper. Judging by Jones' comments on your rear shock needing a similar front damper to achieve top performance, you might be a few steps ahead of Brew. Love your work, keep it up!!
  • 1 0
 @millyard , do you know the weight of V1 and V2 downhill bikes?
  • 21 1
 Wow. That may be the coolest object I have seen all week. Can't WAIT for that review!!!!
  • 20 1
 @mikelevy, you have my undivided attention.
  • 15 0
 Cross section of oleo damper: www.oleo.co.uk/skin/oleo/images/hydraulic-english.png

Mtb damper: cdn.mos.bikeradar.imdserve.com/images/bikes-and-gear/components/forks-suspension/1290525006961-1c10ib67xbhw2-960-540.jpg

Main difference is that in the oleo damper, the air chamber is compressed by the flowing oil, while in the mtb damper the air (spring) and oil (damping) circuits are separate.
Oleo pros: simple, fewer parts, cheaper to manufacture. Great for industrial applications (tanks, planes)
Mtb pros: separate circuits allow for more tunability. Great for sports applications (mtb, auto racing)
Which is exactly where we see these designs being used.

A highly tunable shock probably isn't the best use of money for most of us. After all, once you find the right tune you usually only adjust by a click or two based on conditions. The money saved on manufacturing an oleo damper could be used to implement the logistics and customer support necessary to customize the shock based on rider weight and bike model. I'd say that's Mr. Hunter's business plan, and it could be a good one.
  • 1 0
 Thanks for the diagram. I didn't fully understand the description in the article, so the diagram helps a lot.

Isn't that basically just a simple position sensitive damper design? I still don't understand how it would "automatically adjust" the damping as needed or why this design would perform dramatically better than any of the currently available shocks.
  • 1 0
 Two questions- Why can't the nitrogen charge just be replaced withe compressed air? On most piggybacks that are not twin tube you can adjust the back pressure, why does the oleo need to be nitrogen? Doesn't it work pretty much like the Cannondale rear shock?

Second, how would you put a negative air spring on the Oleo?
  • 2 0
 You sir, win most well thought out Pinkbike comment of the day. Thanks for the diagrams. Was certainly interested.
  • 2 1
 @hamncheez- We have been using nitrogen in shock for years. The nitrogen isn't affected by heat like air. Off road trucks/buggies have been using it since the 80's and saw its use in MTB's as far back as the first Fox and Stados air shocks. The heat effective expansion compared to air is noticeable. If you ever had a fork or shock serviced by the Cortina's (CR1) it was charged with nitro. Some tire shops try to sell you and upgrade to your tire install by offering nitro fill, now thats a total waste of cash unless your a track racer.
  • 1 0
 @gte213u Totally agree. Just because something works on a big heavy object doesn't mean it will work on a light weight bike. The only thing I grasped was that it is very simple. Why should I expect a performance advancement? The needle sounds more like KTM's PDS design; position sensitive and nothing to do with adapting to bumps.
What this sounds like it has going for it is cost through simplicity. Itss like ordering an Avalanche tuned Fox for the price of a Fox. Build it cheaper and throw the extra money into custom tunes. Sounds good to me. You don't need all the useless adjusters if it works right out of the box.

I like that he plans to use volume adjustment for spring rate, come on people, argue with me again that spring rate is not affected by volume but by pressure...
  • 1 0
 @Trail-Gnome The big benefit to nitrogen is not that it is affected by heat as much but that it is dry. Compressed air contains moisture. It is that moisture that creates big fluctuations in pressures.
  • 1 0
 Being able to change your preload is more important than temp change. Offroad truck racing can be hours long, and the weight of the truck is constant, while on a bike most of the weight is from the rider, which will vary during the life of the shock.
  • 3 0
 Questions:
So as the shock gets further into stroke, the air spring is mostly used to control ride height and provide rebound force, with the oil almost entirely providing the resistance to compression?

Basically more of a position sensitive damper rather than speed sensitive?

After reading about their use in landing gear, it seems like the rebound damping curve is almost opposite of a modern shock. Where a typical mtb shock would open up the rebound further into the stroke (digressive) to get back into the useable part of the travel quickly, this would reserve heavy rebound damping for big hits only and still be quite supple over the little stuff. I guess it would be super hard to tune a normal shock to have that rebound characteristic. Would have to be the rebound circuit equivalent of a hydraulic compression bottom out control.

Would these avoid packing up (as their possibly heavy ending stroke rebound damping might indicate) because the compression damping is equally heavy at a given point in the stroke and so you only reserve the super slow rebound for big hits, when you want it to very stable?
  • 1 0
 As the shock goes through travel, the spring force increases, just like any other spring. This does not cause an increase in damping (position sensitivity). Damping only knows the pressure difference over the piston, not the total pressure in the system.
The needle system sounds more like a position sensitive device that adjusts bypass. The further in the stroke, the less bypass, so more damping. Likely meant to affect only compression and not rebound. Rebound you want opposite to keep you higher in the travel so you have more travel to utilize, and thus can make it softer without bottoming.
Digressive is NOT the same as position sensitive. Digressive damping has to do with shaft speeds, not position. Also, shape of the bump is what changes suspension feel, not the size. Damping is speed sensitive.
  • 1 1
 @hamncheez Preload is a good adjustment, but that is a spring force, not damping, and most, if not all, shocks have preload adjustment. A bigger issue though is spring rate, and that is what needs to be changed for different weights. No air shocks offer good spring rate adjustments. Rock Shox does, in the form of "bottomless tokens" but the unfortunate fact is they affect spring progression and spring rate at the same time, not good when trying to set up suspension.
  • 1 0
 @kc358 Im not talking about damping at all. I'm talking about adjustable spring force; preload. Having a minor benefit from nitrogen air is worthless if you're on a shock that is pressurized too high or too low for your weight.
  • 1 0
 @kc358: volume and pressure are directly related. pV=nRT - so if nRT is constant and the volume (V) increases, the pressure (p) must therefore decrease (and vice versa). As nitrogen is less affected by temperature (T) change, spring rate should remain nearly constant through a run. This is an advantage over current air shocks which are affected by temperature, which obviously increases the longer you ride, increasing the pressure in the system.
So there you go, if you change the volume, you're also changing the pressure.
  • 1 0
 @benwearsahat: Not really what I was talking about. Volume changes are done separate from pressure changes. Change the volume to the correct for your weight, THEN adjust pressure for sag. pV=nRT comes into play after it is sealed an operating on the bike.
The unfortunate thing is no one builds a shock that separates spring ramp up from spring rate which leads to setup issues.
I've already argued the benefits of nitrogen, so you don't need to tell me.
  • 1 1
 @hamncheez: Preload is good, but unfortunately the biggest factor in setting up a shock spring is spring rate. Without proper spring rate the preload and damping will have to be used to compensate, which equates to bad performance. It happens all the time on road motorcycles that come with way too soft springs so damping is increased to keep it from diving. The result is a fork/shock that wallows on slow speed bumps and is harsh on high speed. Going to a stiffer (correct) spring rate allows lower preload and damping so the suspension stays higher in the stroke but can absorb high speed impacts.

Now as you said, race trucks don't change weight throughout a race, so why would you want your spring rate to change throughout the race? Same on a bike. Your weight from top to bottom of mountain doesn't change, so why should your spring rate (and preload) change as you ride? It's not good, that's why Nitrogen is beneficial. The spring rate and preload stay more consistent with what you set it at at the start of the ride.
  • 1 0
 @kc358: you can't change the volume without changing the pressure. Essentially changing the volume IS changing the pressure unless you're adding more nitrogen. That's how the adjuster will work, it will move an internal component to change the volume, therefore changing the pressure, therefore changing the spring rate.
  • 17 2
 Sign me up... I'm sick of having 82 knobs on my shock each with 394 different setting that feel like they do "squat"
  • 16 1
 If this was a development in energy tech.. Joe would be dead by now.
  • 7 0
 Interesting to hear all the props given here to the Millyard design. 15" BB heights are super uncool on Pinkbike (unless it's a Millyard). Lefty's are super uncool on Pinkbike (unless it's the rear end of a Millyard).

For the record, I loved the Lefty SuperMax I rode for a season in 2014. I would also be very interested to try a nitrogen charged shock.
  • 8 0
 Good stuff mate I wish you well in this cut throat industry, go hard, never give in to the competition... I'll buy one if it comes to market at the right price
  • 10 1
 I like the aesthetics. Doesn't take itself seriously.
  • 7 0
 Form does follow function after all
  • 4 0
 the only thing that matters to me right this moment is that i discovered farty marty.....rad.
  • 2 0
 I want it to be covered in pvc pipe or something so it looks completely home made. People be like wtf at the trailhead
  • 9 2
 It looks like a joke, but if its true go on it seems like it could be the next big thing in suspension
  • 6 0
 I saw the image and clicked on the link fully expecting satire from @WAKIleaks
  • 12 3
 But will it blend?
  • 2 1
 that is the question !
  • 3 0
 "Not being able to adjust the shock's spring rate?"
"the spring rate, with it being set at the factory to your weight, riding style and bike model."

Surely this makes total sense, if it can be accurately set up from the factory most people will be more than happy for this setup with some details given(weight,frame etc). Furthermore the 10-20% shock "damping that's applied by roughly ten to twenty percent in each direction" will cater for any small changes like track or bag weight...

Good idea, will be good to read more on this. Hopefully its reliable and could come with a lockout lever/remote for the modern enduro bikes Wink
  • 3 0
 Our Mono tube shock that we have been producing for over 10 years employs a hybrid version of this shocks damper system. Our shaft nut plunges into a tapered cup of the IFP backed by nitrogen pressure to resist the bottom third of the stroke while the first two thirds is controlled by a traditional piston and shims. This also increases the spring rate at the end of stroke to add a bit of progressiveness to the overall spring rate. www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/monotube.html

Avalanche Suspension
  • 9 3
 That first CAD picture... my girlfriend has a battery operated object in the bed side drawer that looks just like that.
  • 25 2
 that probably says something more about you than the shock design Wink
  • 8 0
 What does this say about you? And your performance?
  • 61 1
 I'm guessing you're more than 10 percent faster than other riders then.
  • 7 13
flag pancakeflatted (Aug 29, 2015 at 8:20) (Below Threshold)
 I don't think it says anything about @bigtim and his performance...other than his lady ACTUALLY gets to enjoy sex, rather than waiting around for the stupid little pumping to be over like some of y'all.
  • 1 1
 Pedro!! This is the best comment pb has ever seen!!!!!
  • 9 1
 All hail Millyard.
  • 3 0
 This shock isn't Millyard but thanks for the support!

www.pinkbike.com/photo/12633442
  • 4 0
 This sounds crazy but if it really does do what the article says then it could be a game changer for moto and mtb!!! I cannot wait until pinkbike receives a model to test out tup
  • 3 0
 I'm a big fan of millyard and have always itched to give their bike/shock a test ride - if the piggyback version gets to production then I guess I'll start stocking up on nitrogen tanks
  • 2 0
 The Brew Nitro Shox isn't in any way connected to the Millyard name and we have had no involvement. We run ours on Argon as its readily available in small portable bottles.
  • 2 0
 The flight case has everything you need to fully rebuild the shock and forks.

instagram.com/p/zfCRLxwbsi
  • 2 0
 oh gotcha - well if you guys ever decide to sell/test your stuff further - give me a ring!! I love the idea behind the damper and id love to help you guys out any way i can!
  • 3 1
 Will it be a repeat of the original Millyard, seen once and never seen again..... I hope not, simplicity is key, and this design has it in shedloads.. I wonder if the 'Big boys' will take notice ? agree that Marzocchi should be waving a big cheque and ongoing percentage to Hunter, in principle if the claims are true this could become the standard that every other shock is judged on.... PB, keep us posted...
  • 2 1
 Marzocchi does not even have the money to by checks. They are broke, and that is why they are going out of business.
  • 2 1
 Tenneco could influence prospective buyers with a done deal with Hunter, Marzocchi have the experience and the market to promote this product, if the claims are to be believed then the whole industry could be turned upside down... the application could extend into fork design as well... Marz were pretty innovative in their time as well, a design like this would sit well with them in my opinion....
  • 2 0
 My question is: if this technology is better and presumably cheaper (since it seems like less moving parts) then why hasn't any of the big brands offered anything that resembles this? Is it just the adjustability? Seems like they can be made to be adjustable. So what's the deal?
  • 1 0
 Have you heard of patents?
  • 1 0
 @theminsta...so you're saying this company would hold the patent... From military technology from the 50's.... Don't think so bud.
  • 1 0
 So you've heard of it, but don't know of the implications of patents? Do you think the military or the government would apply for patents of this technology........ for bicycles?
  • 1 0
 No, my point was if there is a patent (and there likely isn't one... would be like patenting a strut or combustion engine on a car) that it's probably not held by this company. And if it was, one of the big suspension manufactures would have had no problem working around it or buying it out.
  • 3 0
 The patents aren't for the shock or dampening technology but simply for the assembly of the adjustments.
  • 1 1
 @millyard

make sure your facts are correct before making statements please!
  • 4 0
 @saxo www.freepatentsonline.com/y2010/0163357.html
  • 2 0
 Sooo... I've worked with oleo shocks. They're great for industrial applications when you need a reliable, simple way to absorb huge loads.

They also, uh, kinda suck for performance applications. If they were good for it, motorsport would be using them. They aren't (although I'm sure someone, somewhere is, but not mainstream).

I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I'm not going to hold my breath on this.
  • 4 2
 My comment seems to have gained a few neg responses.
Let me try again...

The time difference between 70th (more or less last place) and first place at the last round of the W.C. Val de Sole was 8.7%

Its a shame this shock was not available to the last place rider as he could have nudged Gwin into 2nd place.
  • 2 0
 I can't wait to read the review! From my reading, it seems to deal with sudden and few impacts very well, like during an airplane landing, so maybe it's best application is for Red Bull Rampage and other riding of that nature. I also read that it is employed on tanks, and the videos I found show tanks taking jumps at over 50kms pretty well! This is really exciting indeed!
  • 2 0
 I am an aircraft mechanic and see this kind of shock everyday, I find it hard to believe it hasn't been tried before! On aircraft they don't over complicate such components coz the more fancy bits you put in the more things can go wrong and there's no room for a screw up on planes.
  • 2 0
 I am excited for this.... But Please, Please hire a designer to design Logo's/Decals etc... Please!!!
I will do it for so cheap..... Just to not see that font on a finished product!!!
Actually if you gave me one of these bad boys (when they make it into production) and I will do it for free!!
  • 1 0
 I think its great to see other technology coming out from small businesses. Its great to see other ways to build suspension that differ from the normal air/coil oil damper combos. Not that these don't work well but I am glad to see people thinking out of the box.
  • 1 0
 While I don't quite understand the technology I fully support suspension with less tuning options. Rockshox and Fox need to adapt that aspect for sure so I can just ride my bike. Then there the DB Inline which needs a university degree to operate.
  • 5 0
 FEWER, FEWER adjustments. Goodness me!
  • 4 0
 Does it come with irn bru stickers?
  • 4 0
 no, you'll have to irn them, bru!...
  • 2 0
 Isn't this pretty much how the Cannondale shock works, but in a pull configuration? Also, how do you make a negative spring for it?
  • 3 0
 You don't need a negative spring if there isn't enough stiction.
  • 1 1
 OLEO isn't anything new or impressive... In fact, I think Suntour already makes a shitty XC fork that uses an OLEO damper. And anyone who's ever ridden in a tank can tell you their suspension isn't all that impressive. Enough with the Millyard hype train already... if this guy's shit was as amazing as everyone wants to believe it is, there'd be a market for it and/or suspension companies would be beating down his door to license his shit. Neither of which is happening.
  • 2 0
 Love the simplicity of it. Honestly, the less garb I have to tweak, the better. Hope the performance lives up to their hype.
  • 5 2
 Grand Theft Auto style bashing should commence in 3... 2... 1....
  • 1 2
 The damping rate is metered by the pressure exerted on the IFP. Is that not what the Fox DHX circuit did? Avalanche carts also increase damping with increased internal pressure. Giving you a damping rate that ramps up on on big hits.
The DHX 5 shock had a rotating plug on the end that increased or decreased the volume of the DHX chamber.
I don't think this shock is remarkably different from a DHX shock.
BTW Fox DHX shock is crap. They could never get the pro pedal circuit to work with the DHX circuit.
  • 3 1
 The DHX's stuff was essentially a supplemental spring rate, to my knowledge - effectively letting you adjust the spring curve to a greater degree via two chambers, one of them being with variable size (the piggyback). This isn't increasing the damping force - just the spring Wink

From what I've read on oleo dampers, the main thing is in the tapered pin (or alternatively - tube) - essentially varying the size of the orifice at different stages of the travel (thinner -> thicker -> thinner... any way you want it). Probably uses some blowoff valves/stiff shims/etc to counter the orifice's exponential damping force (the "spiky/lockout" feeling on hard impacts - think forks with orifice dampers in fast, rocky sections).

There's probably still quite a bit more to it though - still have to read on the citroen system with its reservoir and etc... I bet the piggyback on the original Millyard might have something to do with it Wink
  • 1 0
 I really should be studying.... But pink bike is cranking out these articles so fast! There won't be any time later to read these... or study. cml
  • 1 0
 did you end up winning
  • 2 0
 finally something which looks to be really easy to use and settle
  • 2 0
 Very interesting shock, and indeed article.
  • 1 0
 I hope this isn't just another mythical "70mpg" carb, because the MotoGP connection has piqued my interest.
  • 1 0
 Want this damper, on one image it looks like a niro-sprung dildo with two dials as a balls.
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy

Thanks for a great writeup!

Some interesting comments to read and take on board!
  • 2 1
 So that's why Lorenzo is going so good!
  • 3 1
 So it's a home brew?
  • 2 1
 Seems legit. Not sure tho ...
  • 1 0
 The next invention would be the use of Fart gas to an Air shox....
  • 1 0
 Gwin buddy when you getting on this? 10 seconds faster
  • 1 0
 Best looking shock I've seen in a long time!
  • 1 0
 Already a bike company called BREW......
  • 2 2
 Loveing it keep the new tech comeing pinkbike . Let's overload new tech ))
  • 1 0
 save those pennies kids
  • 2 2
 Might be better than anything out there, but looks like a cheap toy ;D
  • 1 0
 Here, hold my Brew
  • 2 2
 Really?
  • 2 4
 if it looks like shit, sounds like shit, smells like shit....it might be shit?
  • 1 1
 I love hardtails
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