Ask Pinkbike: Boxxer Forks, Torque Wrenches, Bad Days & Used vs New

 Spot on

 Yup. You win today.

 Yeah, it's like hair gel strength: mega hold, super hold, ultimate hold, rc2 hold... you can't tell the difference!

 Yeah I just got a 2017 Pike on a used bike- my first Sram suspension product. Took a minute to learn RC, RC2, RCT3, 2.1 but I got the hang of it. Then I was meandering on the Sram site looking at 2020 stuff and it was just confusing to align RC = select or whatever.

 I don't have to worry about what they call their products. Not buying anything made by them.

 @JuliusZhuang: you know shims are only there to deflect the oil path, same with that plastic thingy and same as with my needle metering suspension systems out there. if you don't know what Shims are for don't complain if you can't find them in a basic fork setup

 @scottyrides5: I bought a bike which came with a lot of sram stuff and didn't even realize how awful it was. Thank you for opening my eyes, kind sir! I will now go and uninstall anything that has to do with sram from my bike and toss it in the garbage. Thank you kind man!

 RockShox Forks have served me flawlessly for the last 20 years. The worst technical issue I ever had was losing a rebound knob. I bounce back from that failure pretty quickly.

 @BaGearA: preach it 100%

 @pinnityafairy: You're one of the lucky ones. Had so many problems with their products over the last 25 years I just choose to avoid them when possible. There are other companies out there with better products ..

 @BeerGuzlinFool: I would prefer a Cane Creek Helm but I always end up getting a bro deal on my RockShox and cannot justify paying three times the amount for the helm.

 @BeerGuzlinFool: that's exactly how I feel about Fox Racing. Nothing but problems and the dyad rt2 put me in the hospital for a while. FUX SUX!;-)

 yes and no, I have had a few Snap-On torque wrenches be 5 to 10 nm out right out of the box. If you are super concerned have them tested and calibrated. 5nm out on a 12,000 carbon road bike is the difference between a happy customer and our shop buying that same customer some new parts and or a bike frame. Most consistant torque wrench I have had is the Shimano PRO mini torque wrench. Have had it sent out for calibration twice now and still after 5 years the damn thing is nearly bang on.... got it on Jensonusa.com on sale for cheap too haha

 @TheBearDen: My local shop has the Pro torque wrench and I want to buy it. All of my parts are aluminum though so idk if I need one

 I'll do you one better and say skip the Snap-On, SK, Mac hype and get one made by the company that makes them for the tool truck brands, CDI. All a Snap-On torque wrench is is a CDI with a Snappy ratchet head and logo, no need for a ratchet on a bike torque wrench IMHO. I use this one www.amazon.com/Products-TorqControl-TLA28NM-Screwdriver-Magnetic/dp/B01DIRD5CG/ref=sr_1_32?crid=2CLPRWQE6KHFF&keywords=cdi+1%2F4+drive+torque+wrench&qid=1563306713&s=gateway&sprefix=cdi+1%2F4%22%2Caps%2C174&sr=8-32

 ex World Cup wrench chiming in, from an era when Snap-on was the bomb, but then turned down a less than stellar road and I got rid of all my snap on tools (as I lost or overused the good versions). So, im sure there are better options.

 I completely agree with you, although for me as a German it’s Hazet. But as those brands you mentioned don’t spend their money marketing their stuff as bike specific so a normal cyclist might have never heard of those ‘proper’ tool brands.
I also really don’t understand how the Effetto Mariposa can be recommended. In the shop I worked at we had to use them and they were hard to set to a certain value as the white line would become dirty/greasy and the adjuster is quite unergonomic. Furthermore there is no handle to force the hand in the right/calibrated position (the torque value depends on it)

 X-Tools 2-24nm Torque Wrench
Comes with 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10mm hex heads, T25 and T30 Torx heads and a case
I paid $39.00 CAD a few months ago for it.

I know it may not be "quality", but for the average home mechanic, it's amazing.

 @matt-15: I work on bikes and parts made of all materials. everything is finished off with a torque wrench.Its a good habit to get into.

 I have yet to see anyone specifically mention the Park Tools torque wrenches. I would like to hear peoples thoughts on them are they good but but overpriced because they are marketed as bike specific? I have the TW-5.2 and it seems to be a pretty nice little wrench with a 2-14nm range that pretty much covers all I usually need it for.

 @maxyedor: That little CDI wrench works brilliantly. no tool truck hype necessary @pinnityafairy you can paint the words "snap-on" if it makes ya feel better.

 @gabriel-mission9: Nope. Just read the instructions of your wrench. Here an article in English blog.mountztorque.com/how-to/understanding-why-length-dependency-impacts-the-use-of-a-torque-wrench

 @TheBearDen: Shimano makes the best stuff on Earth. What is a road bike?

 @matt-15: my aluminum renthal stem got over torqued and is now useless

 @Ryan2949: Not even listed on the specs but it also comes with T20! I just used mine last night I had never seen a T20 bolt in my life until the mounting hardware for a rack for my commuter. Thought I'd have to do 4nm by feel but lo and behold there was the T20 in the upper right hand corner of the case!

 @maxyedor: I second (or third, I guess) CDI. I think the one linked to above is also available in a "bike specific" version if you're interested...don't remember what brand, though.

I'd also consider the dial type from CDI. They cost more but in theory don't wear out and if I recall correctly don't require calibration as frequently. Only downside is that they work best for low torque applications as it's helpful to be able to see the dial as you tighten the fastener which can be difficult when you need two hands and a bit of omph. There's only a couple of parts on a bike like that though.

 Lol I don't disagree... but really Snap-On is majorly overpriced automotive BS.

 Any thoughts on this wrench? Seems like very little to go wrong...

www.chainreactioncycles.com/mobile/topeak-combo-torq-wrench/rp-prod137802

 @dicky1080: Dave from CyclingTips.com chiming in. Avoid that particular Topeak wrench, the ones I've tested have been terribly inaccurate. Topeak's Digital D-Torq is a very nice tool though (it's a rebrand out of Taiwan, Unior sell the identical one, too).

 @maxyedor: yup

 @MmmBones: The CDI's are really nice! I have two to cover all torque ranges needed in my shop.

 I've got one from Wiha. I like that you hold it like a screwdriver instead of a ratchet so it is easier to just apply a torque and not also introduce a bending load. It goes up to 6Nm in quarter Nm increments.

 You can calibrate a torque wrench with a luggage scale, there are videos on yt showing how to, not that difficult if you can put aside the time to do it.

 @zyoungson: how do you calibrate your luggage scale? With your torque wrench?

 @aps62: You silly... Hang your suitcage onto your luggage scale and calibrate it back so that it shows zero. Remember how many turns on the dial that was. Then put a stone in the suitcase and measure again. This should show 6.3502932kg. Adjust the dial if it doesn't. Now turn the dial back in the other direction the number of turns you remembered first and the luggage scale is calibrated. So now it is calibrated to kgf. All you have to do now is to multiply this by 9.80665 to get it in Newton (or a different number depending on where on the world you live).

Now obviously the torque wrench measures torque whereas the luggage scale measures force. Ideally of course you should take someones calibrated foot as a lever to stick to the torque wrench, but it is hard to get volunteers willing to part with their foot these days. A shoe should suffice. Ideally you'd take a carbon soled road cycling shoe because stiffness is everything when you really want to be accurate.

Honestly, calibrate the luggage scale with the torque wrench... What were you thinking?

 I’ll add Norbar torque wrenches to the list if they haven’t been added already. I have one that goes 1-20nm and have had it for 10+ years. It’s still kicking and built like a tank.

 @maxyedor: thank you for that

 Harbor Freight $11 w coupon. Maybe it won't hold aerospace-calibrated precision or be a family heirloom, but ELEVEN DOLLARS!

 @dicky1080: That's essentially a beam style torque wrench, great for setting bearing preload, pretty marginal for torquing bolts. You basically watch a needle on the scale and stop turning when it points to the right number, easy to go past the torque value you're after, and easy to mis-read if you're at a weird angle. I prefer a "clicker" style for most tasks. I can see not wanting to shell out big money on a rarely used tool, but if you can bump your budget from $15 to $40-50 you can get a legitimate professional quality tool like the CDI I posted above. I really do like that CDI, so much so that I have 2, they're cheap, accurate, simple to use, and because they use 1/4" hex bits you can get replacement bits dirt cheap at the hardware store.

 @vinay: I confirm calibration of my Tq wrench with a milk jug! Weigh the jug, then hang off the wrench at mid grip position. Measure the distance to center of socket, and do some math. Tq= Force x Length
SO... jug weight x distance between socket center and center of grip location = torque on wrench. If wrench clicks at the determined number (or close enough to it!) I am happy. Simple Rocket appliances! Definitely confirm afterwards with a luggage scale though!

 @DaveRome: thanks for the input mate, some good info.

 @gnarnaimo: agreed but at least you're getting quality for the price. Also no tool on the planet holds a resale value better than Snap-on tools.

 @jmjr: interesting. I guess i stand corrected when referring to wrenches where the torque setting mechanism doesnt rotate concentrically with the bolt itself. However im not sure why this is. If the mechanIsm does rotate concentrically with the bolt then the wrench is not length dependant. So if the mechanism is a known fixed distance from the center of the bolt, then i dont see how this suddenly makes the wrench perform any differently. If you know the torque being applied at the mechanism (which is not length dependant) and the distance to the bolt, it should be possible to calculate the torque being applied to the bolt. Im going to spend bloody hours thinking about this now...
f*ck

 @pinnityafairy: Snap On quality is honestly pretty meh. I've switched from Snap On to Jet and Mastercraft Professional for fractions the cost and the quality is pretty damn similar. Snap On is a scam and people are suckers.

 @gabriel-mission9: I feel you, I also don't really understand the reason

 @mixmastamikal: as with most things Park Tools: it's always at least decent quality, but for the money, better products can be had from non bike specific manufacturers. Examples:
Wrenches: Knipex
Screw drivers: Wera/Wiha/PB Swiss
Sockets and wrenches: so many brands to choose from (Gedore/Teng Tools/Ko-Ken/Snap-On/etc.)

 @matt-15: there is an argument that you can still make use of one with no carbon. Lots of folks over wrench their parts alloy or carbon. high end alloy parts still have torx specs and can be broken or damaged I have a blk market stem slightly bent on the top bolt because the person I bought it from over tightened it he never noticed but I had it on a steerer that was longer I scraped the shit out of my steerer pulling it off to put a spacer underneath. Another more important part is that your stem, brake lever, seat,shifter. Are only supposed to be so tight that you can't move them while riding or pulling but not so tight that when you crash they can't move your levers should just move naturally when smashed on if it's too tight you will break any of those parts mentioned in stead of scraping your bars.

 @pinnityafairy: beg to differ Bridgeport mills, Hobart, Jon deer anything now that they are only leasing.

 @loganflores: thanks, I am now going to be $180 poorer

 Word. I can't stand those sort of meaningless names, and even if you paid attention to whatever "ultimate" meant on a given fork, it might vary from model to model or year to year. Rockshox took a big step backwards with that shift in nomenclature. The even sadder thing is that they've done that sort of thing before, not in terms of naming conventions, but with their suspension tunes. I remember about 20yrs ago, they "detuned" their compression circuits on the Psylo models to make them feel super "plush" for people pushing on the bars on the showroom floor, at the expense of "on trail" performance, in an attempt to appeal to newbs. Same sort of marketing driven "logic" where they screw over their educated enthusiast fanbase in favor of winning sales with new or casual riders with more money than sense.

It starts to show you why some BMX brands advertise that they're "rider owned". As much as that term is nearly meaningless in the number of ways it can be spun and interpreted, it is an attempt to show that their products are a sort of "by us, for us" thing, and they are not catering to the dentist market (no offense meant to those hardcore MTBers who are also in the dental profession).

 ... thirty years and smart choices take discipline.

 true, feeling off on a ride and pushing it led to me separating my shoulder. be safe out there

 mtb tech moves fast and always has done. Bikes have changed a lot since 2014

 Yes, 26 and 27.5 are dead, no more FD or 10speed cassettes, seatpost's drop, and if you have +165mm of travel the go freeride. Welcome to 2020.

 If it's so good, why are you selling it? If your bike still fits you and your riding (and replacement parts are available) just ride it.

But someone who is looking for a new bike is often better off going new mid-range than used high-end. Some people have the knowledge to find the older model that suits them (eg: I found a 26er frame to match all my existing gear with minimal adapter-ing, and the geometry ended up close enough (single degrees, half dozen mm's) to the new bikes I was looking at), but newer riders are better served by just getting the most modern thing available to ensure it's upgradable for longer.

 @just6979: I've got two bikes from 2013 and have no plans to sell either of them. They rode great when i bought them and I've kept up their maintenance so they are still sweet to ride.

Around 2012/2013 most 140-160mm bikes became easy to climb and decent at descending - the one do it all bike was created. Goodbye to 2008 Spec Enduro type 150mm bikes that were alot of work to climb but smashed thr downs. Yeah wheel size has changed since 2013 but for most people thats mostly about personal preference on how a bike feels.

I'm not hating on the new stuff, just the myth that new is better than old so get ride of your old bike, which no surprise is always the push on PB reviews.

I have a 2017 bike that is also awesome like the older bikes, its not better than the other bikes its just different, longer lower slacker more stable decending, heavier versus shorter, nimble, stable climbing and lighter. Again, just another personal preference about how a bike feels to ride.

 @Ritgut: Wheel-size is not just about preference when shopping used bikes. There is _virtually zero_ new product coming out with 26er sizes included. No new rim, tire, or fork (except Fox 36 and Pike DJ [but not long travel Pike?]) technology will be available for upgrading if you get a 26er. Even the selection of replacements is getting very slim. The 26er stuff that is still out there is very low-end, for department store bikes.

Throw in Boost, internal dropper routing, metric shocks, even new suspension designs: putting a more linear air-spring shock like DPX2 or Super Deluxe on a frame designed for an older more-progessive shock is going to be quite a change in the feel... and there are a bunch of reasons to go new over used given similar prices.

Remember, no one is saying the 5 year old bikes aren't good, just that the new bikes are "better" for most newish riders: good traction and seating position = easier to sit and spin up climbs; longer reach and slacker headtuube = safer and more confident descending, droppers for comfort, Boost for strong & stable wheels, etc etc etc. A more experienced rider who knows what the want and might have a stash of parts that will fit can certainly keep or go get the 5 year old bike, but someone coming in fresh or maybe just making their first upgrade off the department store bike will be better off getting something new, even if it is still on the lower end of the bling spectrum.

 Yeah, I feel ya on that one, and have pondered this topic on several occasions. There is an argument to be made that standards are higher now, so the "standard against which bikes are judged" in 2014 may have been set at a lower bar than the standard today. That would provide a valid reason for them to rave about a bike in 2014, but consider it to be 2nd rate in 2019.

Having said that, I think there is a lot of truth in regard to your point, in particular in regard to things they criticized about bikes that were actually forward thinking. If you dig back (to when short chainstays were hot), you can find reviews that talk about how a 440mm chainstay length lead to sluggish performance, and the bike gets condemned for it. Now that long bikes (with long chainstays) are becoming the hot thing, all of a sudden 440mm is great, and the reviewer might even state that they wish the company had gone longer.

You see the a similar thing with head tube angles, where in an older review a bike is praised for choosing a "balanced" 67.5 degree head tube angle rather than going to an "extreme" number below that, which would have made it impossible to right on tight stuff. Now, 67.5 is "twitchy" and 66 is considered "balanced". And that is despite wheelbases getting longer (more stable), and fork rakes getting shorter (also more stable).

 @thekaiser: 66* is steep by today's standards. Even alot of shorter travel trail bikes have 65-66* HA's.. Some slacker!

 Nah, it's 0.1mm so they can have 34.99mm stanchions

 @Lookinforit: Your math teacher must be disappointed....

 @Pavel-Repak: 0.01** zero is hard to find twice in a row hahaha

 Even better is getting a 2019 year model for cheap.

I got a Yari for 250€ and I really cant complain about the performance- I really wouldnt notice the Charger damper as Im more thinking about not crashing

 @NotNamed: trust me you would RC stands for really crappy it makes a world of difference even to novice rider

 @freeridejerk888: A novice rider doesn't even know what the dials do on their fork, I doubt they would notice the difference between an RC and RC2 damper.

Best option for an experienced rider imo is buy the Yari, upgrade the damper and put in SKF seals and you have a Lyrik Ultimate, unless you are a dentist and NEED the red paint and Ultimate sticker to show off to your friends that is...

 turning dials and riding a better fork or different. The rc damper is trash you would notice a difference @SonofBovril:

 Unless you are going for Cannondale/Dorel since they wont honor their alleged warranty anyway.

 @ppp9911: I know a couple of people who were handled well on a Cdale warranty.

 They are a US company but the Country of Origin is Taiwan for that product, you can find that info under 'Specs'

www.tekton.com/1-4-inch-drive-click-torque-wrench-24320

I am not speaking to the quality, as I have not used one, or held one. I have been looking for a quality torque wrench and it seems that if you want accuracy and reliability, they are either US or Europe manufactured products that cost quite a bit more. I hadn't heard of this brand before so I will dive into some reviews...thanks

 Tekton is an American company, but the primary country of origin for their tools is Taiwan (www.tekton.com/about-us) with only ~15% made in the USA according to their own website. I don't say this to disparage their tools (I've had good luck with them, and specifically recommend that torque wrench), but they're _mostly_ not "American-Made".

Country of origin aside, they make great tools, and I've got more than a few in my tool box.

 And detension them after use.

 @nouseforaname: finding our 600ft/lbs torque wrench nearly maxed out left in the box the other morning... uuh

 @nouseforaname: Detension meaning turn all the way to zero?

 @chrisjk: yes.

 @nouseforaname: Well that would have been good to know when I got min in 2009.

 @chrisjk: no. Not zero. Put them to their lowest listed torque value.

 @nouseforaname: Although there are torque wrenches (quite expensive ones to be fair) that especially advertise that you don't have to detension them

 @spaceofades: Pedro's TW has you back it all the way out and lock it. Would you still go to lowest listed value, and why?

 I mean I suppose I could read the directions. Nah.

 Sometimes I manage all three at once!

 clinical depression that only amounts to an "off day", yeah that's the kind I'll have

 The same wrenches I first purchased that wasn't calibrated properly from the factory, and couldn't be brought into spec. The socket adapters were decent, and I still have those in use.

 i just bought one of those. It seems to work well so far... I hope it lasts because I like it.

 You have to change the stanchions too, as the threads are different, and they went from valve to an inside notch for pressure equalization in the air spring.

 I agree and I'd just add: Your body knows when the race is coming. For me it works every time, I feel sluggish and out of breath in the days just before a race. It's the body conserving everything it can. And it will deliver when needed.

 Or just get one that comes with an official calibration certificate from a certified lab

 Eh, I'd take a 2015 T275A over a number of newer bikes I can think of, but that's just me. Not like i have any real world experience lol.

 @mtbikeaddict: I agree ... There are more than a few older bikes I would take in a minute over most of the new bikes.

 that was a pretty whack response, I'm more confused after reading the answer, and I bet I'm not the only one

 @kjjohnson: It is .. I was at work & got sidetracked & when I realized I didn't finish my thought it was to late to edit it ..oh well. I meant in the old days I trusted pinkbike's opinions more than now.

 @Darknut: to be clear, I wasn't criticizing your comment, I agree with you

 No, both come with debonair.

 Get used to it. Just think of all the poor saps who have 12x142mm hubs.

 Of course not. It'd be Charger 2.899 next.

 It sound like you have a really nice fork.

 @spaceofades: or 650b wheels

 @spaceofades: I'm one of those poor saps, but I'm just gonna simmer and with time, turn to rich syrup

 @kjjohnson: Winner!