Details coming in, but for now Santa Cruz are saying little: "So, while we're unable to confirm ANY details about the bikes the guys are racing on in Mont Sainte Anne, we're not going to deny that what you see here isn't happening..."
Photos are up, expect more info as it comes in the next few days. Word is that it now features a single travel position instead of the two positions on the old bike, has new geometry and a revised leverage curve.
@Dorianl98 Haha, I know someone would do that! Actually my translation before was an euphemistic way of the original meaning. If you back translate it, it would be more or less like what you see in Google Translate. But please take no offense on this guys. It's just an popular phrase here on the web among the youngsters. Also we would say "no pic no jj", which means if you don't post the picture of what you are talking about, your little general will be gone.
Any way, just something for you guys to learn about a little of the online "culture" from the other side of the world. And, I'd have to say, that's a really great bike from Santa Cruz and we are looking forward to its performance this weekend at MSA.
At least give that new Demo suspension a chance to get off the assembly line before you know what bike is better. It might be on par with Maestro suspension. On a side note, I'm glad the v10 got rid of it's dual travel positions.
New Demo looks like a disfigured (new) Norco Aurum mated with a older-gen Canfield Jedi then had an accident on birth leaving out the NDS seattube. I do like the NDS side better though, but when it comes down to it, V10c's are pure quality and have always been. Looks-wise, they're classic and not many other Mfr's have the same frame look.
The demo will have a crappy press fit bb, random rear axle size, and weak pivot hardware. Yea, I'll take a V10!! I don't always ride bikes, but when I do, I DON'T ride Specialized.
I love how so many people rip on Specialized for using "an outdated suspension design". The first FSR bikes came on the market in 1994. The first VPP bikes came to market in 1996. Just like Specialized bought the patent from Horst Leitner for the 4-bar Horst Link design, Santa Cruz bought the VPP patent from Outland in 1999 after that company folded in 1998. Both designs have been reconfigured and refined over the years, and if properly executed they both work really well. I fail to see how something could be considered outdated (and this includes the simple single pivot design) if through refinement it not only works, but also continues to improve. Look at the Porsche 911. The basic design goes back to the VW Beetle from the late 1930s. Are those a piece of crap due to their "outdated" design?
Tried Santa Cruz v10 ages ago when my uncle had one when they looked like a tank for being a weak little gr.9 kid felt amazing would love to own one but ain't happening.
Iamwarthog, you are right. Kona claims it is all about the shock leverage with their single pivot. Any suspension design can work if it is engineered and built properly.
Remember the first v10's had floating brakes. This bike is nothing like them.
Envelope already sorted out the problem of their rims crumpling, it was something like the wrong spokes and hub. That being said I'd rather have those than any carbon bar, if that beaks you've got a real problem
Your bike choice is decided on ease of removing rear shock? Why the hell would you be removing it so often that ease of access matters THAT much? Your options are now limited to... the new Demo. That's about it.
I was surprised they made such a big deal about how easy it is to remove the shock on the new Demo. Its cool I guess, but if they made that such a prominent selling point it makes me wonder is there wasn't really much else to talk about.
Honestly, how hard is it too remove a shock in a similarly laid-out bike frame? Not hard at all. If you're having problems and believe the Demo is great because it's rather pointlessly missing a seattube/and only a second faster to remove a shock..then there is no hope. You still gotta flip the bike around to the NDS on the stand, still unscrew your pivots, still lift the shock upwards then to the side.
Last time I checked, while people do like to make things convenient for the mechanic's side of the bike, no one is in a F1 Pit Stop.
yeah I think the shock on the Specialized is cool but only because it looks radical. Yeah It will same some time removing but that's not a selling point imo even for a racer, it's such a minute difference. I also think maybe the seat mast area would be more attractive if the dint have to make it so thick and stiff to accommodate the missing portion... Something about the new Specialized is bland to me.... Im sure it rips though.
I honestly feel like it's a big deal on the demo because of how hard it was to get the shock out on past DEMOS, rather than compared to any other bike. First gen ones, you had to pull the top link off, & they used these weird washers in the pivots that wanted to fall out whenever you tried to put it back together. rear shock pivot used conical washers that always tried to migrate away from the bolt axis, freaking nightmare. I usually ended up "gluing" them in with grease to try to get them to stay, & still had to fight with it.
M6 I have, which is probably similar to this bike, was cake in comparison.
^ You didn't figure that out 3.2 seconds after you made your first comment on PB? Humor doesn't usually work either. I'm glad you WERE being sarcastic, I still can't believe that "ease of shock removal" is high on ANY body's priority list. But since it's a byproduct of the new Demo design, I guess people will pretend it's now important.
You must be a white supremacist. My Ibis Mojo is all black and white and I refer to it as the Stormtrooper. Suddenly though, that reference sounds more Nazi than Star Wars, at least in this context.
Specialized: "Look at our sexy new carbon demo! Steez... and such..." Santa Cruz: "Really? Specialized thinks they are going to one up us... Lets give them a little taste of what we have..."
Cmon that is a totalllllllly different V-10 !!!! NOT !!!! It is a tool to get every marketing victim to sell their 26" V-10 and burn their hard earned cash once again.
@Alexsin, when you have a georgous, world cup winning bike why would you make it look different? At least it doesn't look like a nineties Lawill link rip off!
Funny.. if a brand breaks with their older design comments are "doesn't speak for them to always come up with something new instead of refining the old design and stay true". Now if a brand refines their old design it's "look at them... still wanna sell us the same shit as for the last 5 years". Just shut up you f#ckin retards.
I'm hoping they've updated the geometry to modern times... 65-66º headangle is ridiculous! If I ever bought this years bike I'd have to spend extra money on an angleset!
In before internet meltdown. Hahaha
Bike looks sick. As always. Would love to own a bike like this. Would love even more to have a park suitable for riding one close enough to my home to justify owning one.
yea i was thinking the same thing, I mean its probably one of the team riders set ups(everyone on that team is 6 foot plus) or promo for chris king, but It kinda leaves one left to think they need to make a longer front section option. Then again I doubt they retooled the moulds at all on the front section for the 650b version
Supplying every frame with one of those headsets would be good for fine tuning sizes. Giving the option of buying a size (XL for me) then the further option of long, medium (normal headset) or short setups would be really useful. Not that this is what Santa Cruz are doing or are planning to do, but it would be a great idea.
@Judge, I'm 6ft 5 too but the XL V10 is good inch too short for me, and about two inches shorter than my custom hardtail, people come in all shapes and sizes before you even get to personal taste.
I'm 6'5" as well and have only sampled the xl devinci. That bike feels as big as a large spesh status. Just to let you guys know, I looked at all the XL's made by every company that offers one and the Knolly podium is largest as far as reach, top tube and wheelbase are concerned. But it will be replaced by the new demo as those numbers are larger. Except for top tube but that is due to one company measuring the top tube horizontally and the other measuring it effectively. By the way, does anybody know the difference between an effective and horizontal measurement on a top tube?
Well, they don't really need to change it, this bike has absolutely dominated the world cup circuit in terms of wins and podiums (and it's barely changed over the years)
good link ^^ the 2008/09/10 v10s were gorgeous when they were full alloy. Those bike radar team bikes with the red/black/white and 40s were the shizznit.
the best looking v10 of all time was the syndicate team bikes from 2009
I taco'd the front wheel on my Blur in Rotorua (NZ) recently and had to replace it that day. Had the same reaction from four shops - "No 26ers here mate", "They're outmoded", "You won't find one", "Living in the past" etc. I've never ridden 27.5, so have no view on 'em, but I'm inclined to think nismo's on the money...
You know, I have a Sony D6C in my music box, I bought it in 1996 just before I came to Japan; to many it is seen as one of the major contributing factors to a rise in the commercial success of large numbers of musicians who, until then, had few opportunities to record professional levels of sound quality as they strove to bring their music to a wider audience. Remember Michelle Shocked's Texas campfire tapes? Recorded on a D6C. I love my D6C and still use it today; it's quick, simple, fantastic sound quality and totally mobile. It's a classic and deserves to be. I love it and am not planning on getting rid of it.
Are there "better" modern equivalents? Of course there are. Recording on tape, rather than being "ain't dead" is, in 99.9% of cases, well and truly in the past. I also use a presonus firebox and Cubase these days too, yet the D6C remains on the table by the bed and I turn to it more often than not.
It is still alive. It is still doing exactly what the team at Sony designed it to do, Perfectly.
Living in the past? It doesn't feel like it to me. Outmoded? I suppose if you like quantize and autotune you might think so, I prefer the rawness of a nice live performance myself. Just ask Dave Grohl about analogue recording and you might get why some of us feel so strongly about it.
And I suspect that my 26 inch BFe will go the same way as the D6C. Let those of us who love our machines keep doing so. We possibly know something of value that others too keen to consign them to yesterday have yet to discover. Enjoy your new bikes people. And your old.
redsetta - that is shit mate and my worst nightmare as a 26er. I thought these bike shops would still have 26 DH wheels for a good while longer. If im out on a road trip and my 26 inch wheel fails then id be well screwed if your experience is anything to go by. I've just bought a new 26 rear for my trail bike - it was either that or new fork and wheelset. bullshit man
After few years everybod who said that 26 is dead will be coming to market with 26 inch wheels claiming that 27.5 and 29 were great when it came about rolling over obstacles but that they were losing stability in coners, weren't acelareting really good and took more money to make it light weight. However in the end it's all about marketing.
Haha, "losing stability in corners"... you've never ridden 27.5's. Never mind the extra traction in corners. Even the biggest haters of big wheels I know have admitted they didn't notice any negatives to the slightly bigger wheels size, only benefits. Most people hell bent on 26" wheels are pissed they just invested in new 26" stuff and now it's going the way of the dodo, and regurgitate the arguments they've heard against them. And most of those arguments only work on paper (some are true with 29ers), when you are out on the trail the "extra rotational weight" or whatever other crap you heard isn't noticeable, but the extra traction, speed and stability IS. But I did it again, I told myself I wouldn't waste time arguing about wheel sizes. You'll have a bike with them some day, and you'll feel silly that you loved your 26" wheels because "bigger wheels are just marketing".
Scott, there are some of us who love our 26 inch wheels purely because they can fit into the plethora of 26 inch forks we own. Which in turn fit into the 26 inch frames we possess. No mystery, no hating, just pure and simple love of tinkering with what we have got rather than envy of what we haven't.
All this crap talk about 26" and 650b don't interest me... After all, I did spend a lot of my youth listening to music on vinyl & cassette .. so yeah- change happens... and sure my bike is a 26er. But at least my music is mp3
I think complaining about it on this bike is kind of ridiculous… Like, the argument is normally that people that they don't want to go and buy a whole new expensive wheel set, but, like, if you're buying a V-10, you can probably afford a new wheel set...
I can only assume if there are no travel position changes available and all of syndicate runs their current models in the 8.5" setting that it is no longer actually a v10 and should be a v8.5 ???????????????
A national level MX bike is $50-150k (Not a stock bike- they are OK at the local level up to intermediate. After that it takes a pile of money to race competitively.) Racing is expensive. DH, BMX, Enduro are the cheapest wheeled sports out there.
Well as I said in a previous comment, this bike presents a great oppurtunity to test the benefits of 26 vs 650B since so little changed between the 26 version and the 650B version. It was hard to compare before since most bikes underwent some substantial changes between the two sizes or most were just 26" frames with 650B wheels jammed into them.
This is so old. most of the people bitching stopped after riding the newer bikes. There's a handful of pretend riders who say they don't like 650b after riding one, but personally, the difference is moderate, like going from 1.95 tires to a good 2.35 tire. The 2.35" tire is theoretically less nimble, but the difference in ride and traction are outweighing the slight downside.
Yeah, regardless of all the "I'm gonna be a 26er for life!" bullshit, I have yet to meet ONE person who hasn't preferred 650B after actually trying it. 26" is going the way of the dodo, and I'm fine with that.
You obviously didn't ride one then. A freight train, come on! Most don't even describe 29ers that way. The difference in agility is VERY minimal, like going from a 1.95 tire to a 2.35 tire. No one bitched about that.
When I demoed the ibis HDR I made up my mind then and there that I wouldn't care whether my next bike was 559 or 650. All that really matters to me is that its fun and fast so either one will do.
How was your "opinion" so out of touch with reality? The difference is notable, but it's not like the bike can't turn anymore. The only place I really notice a deficit is in the tightest switchbacks, where you are at a near dead stop. In every other situation, the traction advantage is much more noticeable.
You're doubting my "experience " even though physics confirms it.
The freight train analogy was really a compliment. Meaning the 650b bike descend like it is on rails. But the extra weight and extra turning radius are part of that trade off... Which is what different size wheels are : trade-offs.
But at the end of the day the bigger wheel size didn't impress me.
I am going to ride my bike until it dies and then buy used. I think that the industry has seen the last of my dollars for new bikes.
Should only be a 1 or 1.5 pound difference or so. Apples to oranges otherwise. Was the geo the same? Newer bikes are more slacked out, and that will have the same effect as larger wheels.
It would be really sweet if the front triangle didn't change on these and a 27.50b rear triangle could be put in it's place...I know that's not the best best way to make a couple bucks though.
That's what Ibis did... I was able to update my frame to 650B with proper geo and clearance without having to buy a whole new bike (just half of one, haha) and I can't thank them enough for doing that. $600 for a new swingarm and shock mount is wayyyy better than a whole new frame, especially if you only recently bought a 26". That would be awesome if they offered that to V10 owners.
you think they would have lengthened the top tube for people that cant get their hands on one of those headsets..
SC is probably bummed they just released the Bronson with such a short top tube...the geo was outdated a few months after it was released...didn't think they would do it again...the Nomad is slightly longer but not much
What's needed is a Limited Anniversary Production of the Iron Horse Sunday. With a few minor geo adjustments with optional 26 / 27.5 dropouts, and 64 degree HA.
Looks very nice. Key take away from the photos. Santa cruz made a new v10 but did not make it long enough for their riders, hence the headset fitted... Mmmmm if they missed that, what else did they miss
Yup...and you'll be seeing Z's Zman... When you crash that much harder from Z 650b speedz! JK man. Do want a 951 evo 650...do want new V10c. Mmm those huuuuge C rimz...
All nice bikes, but love the one I have, so Im happy, rest of you can whine on, too much money, too much carbon, too much wheelsize, yawn yawn, Im off to ride, beyotches!
Stick to riding your keyboards with Kylee!
Nice one SC btw.
Bikeporn just got messy! Love the sleek looking lines of the V10! 27.5 is the future! Can I have one for my wall and one to ride please mr Santa Clause Cruz!
I like SC better than spez simply because they ride sweeter than spez and use quite standard components....hate that proprietary components that spez use
Its not great, the difference is so small, ratboy was more than capable of winning on the 26inch v10 (obviously). 650b is a great way to sell more bikes though, and at the end of the day it is an industry
Thats not something you can say with any sort of certainty whatsoever and definitely not "(obviously)" since there wasn't a 650B V10 out yet for ratboy to be more capable on. Now that there is one some testing can happen to determine which is faster. This time the testing though would actually be relevant since so little changed with the new bike except for wheel size.
I call BS caketown. Even if the bike wasn't much faster they would still run 650. At this point if you want to sell bikes you gotta be on the 650 bandwagon. With all the marketing in the last year or so all any one can talk about is 650b. The 26 v10 was already just as fast as the 650b competitors.
In all other forms of racing, no expense is spared in the pursuit of gaining 10ths or 100ths of a second. So if switching to 650B you're gaining a second or two in a race run compared to 26"...there isn't a team or brand that would stick with 26". To the average trail rider, if you were on you're 26" beating you're 29er friends, you're stroll going to beat you're 650B friends.
Or.....maybe it's the new geo changes that are making the bigger difference??
If it was a disadvantage, they would drop it. Look at the demo fiasco last year. Gwinn got a custom rear triangle, then the first two rounds he didn't even ride the demo this year. Losing sucks for PR. The "new" has to be at least equivalent to the old, or it will not make it.
PS: I don't care what you ride. I like what I like, and don't think a company should drop 559 if they can sell them. If they can't, it only makes sense to drop them.
And the point of my comment went right out the window. I don't care whether it's 650 or 559 I just like that there are finally two extremely similar bikes one with 26 and one with 650B so we can see what the riders choose for the next three races.
Sure 650b has been out for a while but the bikes they've been on have undergone big changes between revisions so the differences were much larger than just wheel sizes. Everything on this frame looks pretty darn close to the 26in frame so the bikes should ride quite similar just one will have bigger wheels. This is for science all I'm saying. I'm already sold on the idea of the two sizes coexisting I just like the competition which in turn produces better bikes.
Is it the 650B are just new bikes coming out that happen to have 650B wheels? It's be fun to take a bike like this V-10, run a few laps on 650B then run a few laps on the same wheels and tire in 26 and see what kind of difference could be felt.
I have ridden the bikes backl to back, and its like switching to better tires, or a new better fork/shock combo. Not earth shaking, but enough of a difference to make it worthwhile.
Rode my Banshee Rune back to back against a Intense 275c. I timed the rides via strava...uphill times were 8 secs different (advantage Intense). On the dh I was def. faster on my Rune, but I attribute that to knowing the bike. For that amount of time "saved" going uphill I'm not going to run out and buy a 650B tomorrow.
Willie is absolutely right. I had a pimped M9 last season and now i have a pimped 951evo. the evo's rolling speed is insane. i cant even ride behind my friends anymore. it has made me quite a bit faster.
No kidding, well maybe there is a little notiable difference then. Thanks for the comparrison Z-Man. Im assuming you were on the same fork and shock on both rigs right?
thank you i wasnt saying this is a crap bike i was purely stating that these rims are crap when they are 26" in diametre so why neg prop me if i was stating that riding this wheel size with these rims is like riding wheels made of paper
www.thestudentroom.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=243660&d=1379113412
Specialized Demo and now this… Welcome to the 13k and up club!
I'd take this over a wife any day maintenance on a bike will always be cheaper then a wife."
Than. Than a wife.
That means "What the heck you are talking about, just post your girlfriend's photo!"
Hmm...not very catchy
But that is a beautiful bike
BTW, your welcome translate.google.com/#zh-CN/en/%E6%B2%A1%E5%9B%BE%E4%BD%A0%E8%AF%B4%E4%B8%AA%E9%B8%A1%E5%B7%B4%E5%95%8A
Haha, I know someone would do that! Actually my translation before was an euphemistic way of the original meaning. If you back translate it, it would be more or less like what you see in Google Translate. But please take no offense on this guys. It's just an popular phrase here on the web among the youngsters. Also we would say "no pic no jj", which means if you don't post the picture of what you are talking about, your little general will be gone.
Any way, just something for you guys to learn about a little of the online "culture" from the other side of the world. And, I'd have to say, that's a really great bike from Santa Cruz and we are looking forward to its performance this weekend at MSA.
Last time I checked, while people do like to make things convenient for the mechanic's side of the bike, no one is in a F1 Pit Stop.
M6 I have, which is probably similar to this bike, was cake in comparison.
Santa Cruz: "Really? Specialized thinks they are going to one up us... Lets give them a little taste of what we have..."
Just shut up you f#ckin retards.
Seriously the only people still on 26" in the next few years are either dirt jumpers, or dirt poor. Either way...
this bike has absolutely dominated the world cup circuit in terms of wins and podiums (and it's barely changed over the years)
the best looking v10 of all time was the syndicate team bikes from 2009
"I think we should all start riding full suspension tandems with our friends. Wearing capes."
You know, I have a Sony D6C in my music box, I bought it in 1996 just before I came to Japan; to many it is seen as one of the major contributing factors to a rise in the commercial success of large numbers of musicians who, until then, had few opportunities to record professional levels of sound quality as they strove to bring their music to a wider audience. Remember Michelle Shocked's Texas campfire tapes? Recorded on a D6C. I love my D6C and still use it today; it's quick, simple, fantastic sound quality and totally mobile. It's a classic and deserves to be. I love it and am not planning on getting rid of it.
Are there "better" modern equivalents? Of course there are. Recording on tape, rather than being "ain't dead" is, in 99.9% of cases, well and truly in the past. I also use a presonus firebox and Cubase these days too, yet the D6C remains on the table by the bed and I turn to it more often than not.
It is still alive. It is still doing exactly what the team at Sony designed it to do, Perfectly.
Living in the past? It doesn't feel like it to me.
Outmoded? I suppose if you like quantize and autotune you might think so, I prefer the rawness of a nice live performance myself.
Just ask Dave Grohl about analogue recording and you might get why some of us feel so strongly about it.
And I suspect that my 26 inch BFe will go the same way as the D6C. Let those of us who love our machines keep doing so. We possibly know something of value that others too keen to consign them to yesterday have yet to discover. Enjoy your new bikes people. And your old.
The bigger wheels will descend like a freight train... But it will also jump like a heavy train and switch lines like a heavy train.
Most people stopped complaining about the new wheel size because we understand the industry decided to disenfranchise the 26" rider.
If the 650B is so much better, then how was Jared Graves able to win on a 26" last year?
And for the record, I did recommend a 650B bike to a friend because it did fit what they wanted the bike to do.
You're doubting my "experience " even though physics confirms it.
The freight train analogy was really a compliment. Meaning the 650b bike descend like it is on rails. But the extra weight and extra turning radius are part of that trade off...
Which is what different size wheels are : trade-offs.
Bigger wheels means bigger frames for full suspension.bigger frames equal more weight.
The extra weight and size was noticeable, the extra traction that you allude to was noticable.
Key take away from the photos.
Santa cruz made a new v10 but did not make it long enough for their riders, hence the headset fitted...
Mmmmm if they missed that, what else did they miss
Or.....maybe it's the new geo changes that are making the bigger difference??
PS: I don't care what you ride. I like what I like, and don't think a company should drop 559 if they can sell them. If they can't, it only makes sense to drop them.
www.pinkbike.com/photo/10797522
www.pinkbike.com/photo/9884296
Saint cranks? On a nice bike like that, ouch.