A Deeper Look At RockShox 2023 Fork Tech

Apr 13, 2023
by Seb Stott  


It's been ten months since RockShox unveiled their 2023 forks. Back then, there was a lot to unpack: new air springs, dampers and something called Buttercups. RockShox didn't give all the details away right at the start, but since then more information has come to the surface. I've also had time to ride multiple examples of these forks and literally pick them apart, before putting more probing questions to RockShox.

So with that, and before I give my verdict on how the 2023 Zeb performs on the trail and how it compares to the Fox 38, I thought I'd share what I've learned about what's inside the latest and greatest from RockShox.



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Charger 3 Damper

RockShox say they started with a blank slate with the new Charger 3 damper. In place of an expanding bladder seen in previous Charger dampers, it uses an internal floating piston (IFP) with a coil spring behind it to make room for oil as it flows past the compression valves. When the Charger 3 launched this was an obvious talking point, but in terms of how it directly impacts performance, it's pretty irrelevant. We'll get to why RockShox made this change later but, in general, there's no inherent advantage of an IFP over a bladder or visa-versa.

The big change is that the high-speed and low-speed compression damping circuits have been moved from in-parallel to in-series. This means that instead of oil being able to flow through either the low-speed pathway or the high-speed shim stack when the fork compresses, it has to flow first through the high-speed valve and then the low-speed valve.

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photo

To unpack this further, I'll build on an analogy RockShox uses on their website . Picture a busy department store full of people. The store closes and people start slowly filtering through the exit door in a calm single file. This is like oil flowing through the low-speed valving in a traditional damper. Now imagine the fire bell rings and everyone rushes for the exit at once. Now the single door isn't wide enough and it becomes a choke point - people can't get out fast enough and start to build up behind the door.

In a damper, a similar thing can happen (especially in basic dampers) when there isn't enough oil flow area through the compression valve to deal with high-speed hits, causing the suspension to "choke" and fail to move fast enough to absorb the impact. To solve this, most dampers have a high-speed valve in parallel to the low-speed valve. This is a valve with a port that's held shut by a coil spring or an array of flexible washers called a shim stack (or a combination of both); as the pressure increases due to high oil flow through the low-speed valve, the pressure pushes on the shims and opens a second valving route. In our department store analogy, this is like an emergency door next to the main door, which is held shut by a door spring. Normally, people don't bother with this door because it takes effort to push it open, but when there's a crush, the door is forced open and everyone can get out fast.

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This video gives some good background on the different types of damper valving.

In most dampers, including the previous Charger 2.1, the size of the low-speed valve can be set by the user with the low-speed adjuster, but in use, it's a fixed-size orifice for the oil to flow through. The Charger 2.1's high-speed compression valve consisted of a shim with a coil spring on top. When you turned the HSC adjuster toward the closed position, this added preload to the coil spring, which held the shim stack down against the valve, making it harder for the oil pressure to force the shims open and flow through.

RockShox
An older Charger 2 RC2 damper (on the right) next to an RCT version from the same era. Here you can see the coil spring that holds closed the high-speed valve according to the position of the high-speed adjuster in the outgoing Charger design.

The problem with this, RockShox say, is that the high-speed adjuster affects the low-speed damping and visa-versa. This is because when you set the high-speed preload to a minimum, oil can start trickling through the high-speed valve even at low shaft speeds, especially if the low-speed adjuster is set to the fully closed position. In our shopping analogy, imagine the low-speed valve that's set to closed as a very narrow door that people have to squeeze through one by one. Next to this is the spring-loaded emergency door, but the spring is loose and allows the door to open wide enough for people to fit through without much effort, so people use both doors even when there's no emergency.

Going back to the damper, this means that opening up the high-speed adjuster will also limit the amount of damping force (the pressure behind the valve) you can get at low shaft speeds (such as when cornering and braking) because the oil has an alternative choice of route. Meanwhile, closing the high-speed adjuster to stop it from moving too much on big hits will also make the fork firmer at low speeds. This is what RockShox refer to as "crosstalk".

With Charger 3, there's still a low-speed valve where the user can adjust the size of an orifice. Oil can flow through this orifice which RockShox call "the easy path," or it can also flow around this orifice through a non-adjustable shim stack - "the hard path". So far, this is essentially the same as a traditional damper without adjustable high-speed damping. However, in Charger 3, before the oil gets to this it first goes through the high-speed valve, which is actually just another fixed-size orifice where a cone adjusts the size of the hole that oil can flow through depending on the position of the HSC adjuster.

When the high-speed adjuster is open and the low-speed is closed, the oil flows relatively freely through the first (high-speed) port, but then is forced around the low-speed port and through the shim stack, which is tuned to give a lot of damping force (restricted oil flow) at low-speeds but still allows plenty of oil to flow (by opening up) at higher speeds. In the opposite case, where the low-speed is open and the high-speed is closed, a much higher proportion of the damping force (oil pressure change) is generated by the high-speed valve.

You can see the overall effect of this in the below graph from RockShox.

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Take any graph published by the manufacturer with a pinch of salt, it's not clear to me what RockShox mean by "other dampers". But what this graph trying to get across is that if the Charger 3's low-speed adjuster is fully closed, the high-speed adjuster barely affects the low-speed damping force. Whereas with the mystery "other damper" opening up the HSC dramatically reduces the low-speed damping force. Interestingly, there isn't much difference the other way around - if the LSC is fully open, the two dampers perform broadly the same at either extreme of the HSC range.

Charger 3: What's the Bottom Line?

So, if you boil it right down, Charger 3 makes it possible to have a lot of low-speed damping force while still having the high-speed relatively open. Then if you wanted to firm up the high-speed compression damping too, the low-speed damping behaviour would be relatively unchanged. All this wasn't possible (at least not to the same extent) with previous Charger dampers.



Two Questions with RockShox's Chris Mandell

How does the range of compression adjustment compare between Charger 2.1 and 3?


- "The amount of damping the Charger 3 produces is tuned to match the Debonair+ airspring."

- "Relative to the Charger 2.1, the 3 makes less HSC and more LSC. It makes more LSC as a result of the Debonair+ spring being softer off the top than the airspring the Charger 2.1 was designed for."

- "The Charger 3.0 has a broader range of LSC and HSC adjustment."

Why the switch to IFP for Charger 3? Has it got anything to do with trying to reduce crosstalk?


"Using an IFP gave us better backpressure in the system (less risk of cavitation). This gave us more freedom in damper design. We used the freedom to increase the range of compression forces we could create and eliminate crosstalk. I’d also note that it allowed us to make the damper considerably easier to service… And quiet."



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Buttercups

These are rubber elastomers which sit at the bottom of the spring and damper shafts where they connect to the lower legs. To understand why we might want this, we need to discuss a little theory.

The seals inside an air spring or damper create static friction or "stiction" which has to be overcome before they can start sliding. That means when the wheel hits a bump and the tire starts to compress, the force has to build up to a point where it's sufficient to overcome this stiction before the fork can move at all. Up to that point, the fork is essentially rigid. When you're riding over lots of small bumps (picture a washboard surface), this stiction can significantly numb the response of the fork to the bump forces, making for reduced comfort and traction.

The idea of the Buttercups is to allow a little movement (up to 4 mm according to RockShox) between the lowers and upper tubes without having to also force the spring and damper seals to slide as well. In other words, the stiction that exists in the chassis is spatially offset from the stiction in the internals. In theory, this means the fork could start compressing when the bump force is sufficient to overcome the chassis friction but not sufficient to also overcome the friction in the internals, so it can start moving a little sooner over every bump.

How much of a difference does that make? RockShox claims they reduce high-frequency vibrations by 20%, and that's "proven by science". Obviously, it's the bicycle industry form of science where you don't have to publish any evidence, context, data, or definitions, so take that as you will.

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Since they're designed to deal with the smallest-amplitude bumps and attenuate the effect of the (relatively modest) friction in the internals, you might imagine the rubber pucks in the Buttercups are soft and squishy like a bouncy ball. But if you take the fork apart to have a feel, the Buttercups are surprisingly stiff compared to the air spring itself. With the lowers removed and the air spring inflated to 70 psi, I pushed on the end of the air shaft and had to get quite deep into the travel before the Buttercup compressed by more than a millimeter.

With the air shaft removed, I placed the foot end of the air shaft on a digital scale and pushed on the other end to see how much it compressed as the force was applied. You can see the result of this in the above video. Here you can see how much the Buttercup compresses when a downward force is applied to the air shaft. The scale reads up to 5 kg of force. Bear in mind that, according to RockShox, it only takes about 1.6 kg to overcome the static friction in the air spring.

Why is the rubber not softer? RockShox's website may offer a clue: "When we first started out, we had some really soft pucks. We put them on our SIM test machine, which tests for durability, and we started seeing them get chewed up." So perhaps the pucks in the production forks have to compromise suppleness for durability. Of course, this is only a theory.

Since first publishing this article, SRAM told me "the durometer is not related to the pucks getting chewed up in testing. The pucks are there to handle high-frequency inputs to the fork – Inputs that the airspring and Damper are not optimized to manage. The amount of displacement we are trying to deal with is very small but the speed is very fast."

But it's worth underlining that the Buttercups don't do anything to mitigate the effect of the friction between the upper and lower legs, and if the bumps aren't large enough to overcome this force (which is considerable, especially with slack head angles), the Buttercups can't do anything.

It's also worth noting that RockShox aren't the first to do something like this - DT Swiss and EXT have a similar system on the spring side, using a coil spring instead of a rubber bumper.

They can't hurt performance, but it's difficult to say how much benefit they really offer as they are integrated into the new Debonair+ air spring.



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The air springs in the 2023 Zeb, Lyrik (pictured) and Pike have changed to aluminum to free up more air volume compared to the outgoing plastic pistons.

Debonair+ Air Spring

The outgoing generation of RockShox air springs was designed such that the piston passes the transfer port (which allows air to freely pass between the positive and negative air chambers) close to topout. This made the forks easier to set up because there was no need to compress the fork into its travel in order to equalize the pressures after making an air pressure adjustment. It also made the fork sag less into its travel because the negative spring wasn't "over-pressurized" relative to the positive chamber at topout. In most air springs, the transfer port is located above the piston at topout, so the chamber pressures equalize a few millimetres into the travel. This means that, at topout, the negative chamber has a higher pressure than the positive one, which makes the fork sink into its travel slightly with a softer spring rate off-the-top (RockShox call this the "touchdown feel", which I think is a good name.)

With the 2023 generation of forks, RockShox have gone back on this; now the transfer port is placed higher up, so the pressures equalize a few millimetres into the travel, creating a softer "touchdown feel" than the previous generation of forks. RockShox say they have increased LSC in the Charger 3 damper to compensate for the softer initial spring rate and the lower ride-height at sag.

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With the 2023 Zeb air spring (top), the seal ring sits slightly lower down in the fork leg compared to the 2020-2022 spring (below), meaning it passes the transfer port deeper into the travel so there's more air pressure in the negative chamber at top out. The gold aluminum piston is bell-shaped and hollow, so there's more negative volume, but less positive volume. Also, note the Teflon backup rings on the new piston.

The transfer port is a small channel cut into the inner wall of the stanchion. With Pike and Lyrik, the upper tubes are all-new so RockShox simply machined the transfer port higher up the stanchion wall. With the Zeb, the upper tubes are the same as last year, so RockShox made a new bell-shaped air piston such that the seal sits lower down in the tube, and so passes the port deeper into the travel. (This also means the Debonair+ air spring is backwards-compatible with all older Zebs). The hollowed-out aluminum piston also leaves more room for an increased negative volume underneath.

This increased negative volume should also make the spring softer before sag but also firmer after sag, relative to the older spring set to the same sag. In other words, more negative volume makes the spring more progressive. At the same time, the increased negative volume leaves less space in the positive chamber, making it even more progressive. You'll probably need fewer volume spacers in the 2023 Zeb than in the previous version.

Another question for RockShox's Chris Mandell

How do the spring volumes and transfer port locations compare between the 2020-2022 (A1) and 2023 Debonair+ (A2) springs?


"At topout the transfer port lives above the air piston. This allowed us to have a soft ‘touchdown’ feel and supple small bump performance (note above where the damper is tuned to match this – we don’t want the fork diving into the travel). We have also tuned the shape of the transfer port to work with the air piston design so that it ‘gulps’ the exact right amount of air every time (the Teflon back up rings play a role here as well). Another benefit of this is that the fork is usually travelling at speed when it goes over the transfer port, which means the rider never experiences a ‘dead’ feeling portion of the travel."




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141 Comments
  • 241 0
 @seb-stott: Seb, really appreciate your well reasoned, critical analysis of products and tech. You genuinely question what is in front of you rather just extrapolating on companies Ad copy. Thanks.
  • 84 0
 I really appreciate this comment. Thanks!
  • 32 2
 Yep ! Thumbs up for a very factual article. Buttercups reminds me of older elastomer forks like Judy XC circa 1995, and I was wondering since RS released it why they didn't propose different hardnesses for their elastomere, like on Shore scale, to adapt for riders weight... But anyway it looks like they have come full circle ... Yo dawg, I heard you like forks, so we put a Judy in your Zeb so you can Judy while you Zeb !
  • 12 0
 @gnaralized: Xzibit approved
  • 3 0
 OG Judybutter and now Buttercaps.
  • 2 0
 Yeah for deeper looks! Keep up the good stuff @seb-stott
  • 40 1
 Improving proven tech is always positive but sometimes those improvements are so marginal it can be hard to tell what difference they make. Think that's the case here. But good to see effort going into making things ever better.
  • 21 1
 I think the updates combined represent a marginal, but noticeable, improvement (at least in the case of the Zeb which I've had the most time on), but I'm not sure how much difference they make individually. I'm most sceptical about the Buttercups (although they can't hurt).
  • 3 0
 @seb-stott: any news if these are backwards compatible?
  • 17 1
 @seb-stott: I also suspect the Buttercups are snake oil. My new Zeb is noticeably less plush on small bumps than my old one. But it's a lot better in terms of support through the rest of the stroke, so overall it's a much-improved fork IMO.
Thanks for an interesting and detailed article anyway, I suspect I'll be coming back to it.
  • 5 1
 @chakaping: yea this is what i’ve read. Most people who know whats whats are saying 2.1 damper is better for small bump….

2023 RS stuff with 2.1 damper is such a bargain right now
  • 8 1
 @rich-2000: The Lyrik and Pike with the 2.1 damper were/are great. The Zeb just didn't give enough support, but I'm not sure if that was the damper, the airspring or a bit of both.
My friend is riding the new damper and old spring and says it's still giving a lot more support than the 2022 fork.
It'd be interesting (if a bit geeky) to also ride the old damper/new spring and compare the 3 or 4 set-ups back-to-back.
How about that for a feature idea @seb-stott ?
  • 6 0
 @chakaping: For sure, Charger 3 gives more damping support than the previous ones. I think combining it with the outgoing air spring would lead to too much harshness. It's a cool idea to try out though.
  • 5 1
 @seb-stott: I think there would be a much larger impact from buttercups if they isolated their movements from the displacement between the lowers and uppers (i.e. putting them between where the axle mounts and the bottom of the lowers)
  • 1 0
 @chakaping:
Unfortunately rebuilding them out the box is the only way to make sure it's functioning as it should.
  • 4 0
 @spuddo: I don't think so. Their whole point is to seperate the stiction of the stanchions from the stiction of te damper and air spring. Placing them between the axle mount and the bottom of the lowers is basically the same job your tires are doing.
  • 5 0
 @chakaping: the thing is, bushing fit is always a lottery on how good you're gonna get. back in the day marzocchis were legendary for being stictionless and i've ridden a 2018 boxxer that was EVEN BETTER while my dorado has noticable stiction. it's random fork to fork yet critical
  • 1 1
 @rob748: What part of my comment(s) was that in response to?
I did actually have to disassemble my 2023 Zeb after an oil leak in transit.
  • 4 0
 @Alloypenguin Yeah it was definitely a major overhaul in terms of tech but it always comes down to what people perceive as useful in practice. When Fox went from using FIT4 to Grip2 in most of the forks that was a huge change in terms of practical application/ride feel. I rode a 2023 Zeb and immediately didn't like it. Yet I loved the 2.1 charger Zeb. What I always see is that suspension gets wayyyyyyyyy too techy in an attempt to justify expensive things (talking about custom suspension tuning/products). I don't think most, even frequent, riders really want to treat their suspension like a science project. I mean ^^^^ look at how much fancy analysis they do on suspension. It all gets old, imo.
  • 3 0
 @chakaping: So, basically the Ohlins fork but with less tuning ability. That's the reason I got rid of my Ohlins, it can be pushed extremely hard and has amazing support but it rides like a wagon over small bumps.
  • 8 0
 I agree. These suspension companies need to quit this update once a year crap.
  • 1 0
 @nickfranko: I don't honestly know. I'm not saying it's the best thing since sliced bread. The old Zeb was particularly supple in the early stroke and the new one seems merely adequate.
More riding required TBH.
  • 6 0
 @seb-stott: The issue for me with buttercups is the amount of friction between the stanchion and lowers, with the tighter bushings on mine and the wiper seals, it seems highly unlikely that it will absorb any vibrations like they claim since it has to get the lowers moving across the stanchions to work. The amount of friction there is pretty significant, at least when I pulled mine off, it seemed like the amount of force required to get them moving was higher than what those supposed vibrations would create and by that point the shafts are already moving. It may be the sort of thing that shows benefits in a lab environment with perfect conditions and a perfect tolerances, but in the real world with varying geometry on bikes and especially assembly quality, it doesn't do much.

My unsubstantiated theory is that they implemented them to prevent shops from over torquing the damper and spring shafts then cracking them, since doing so with the cups in place would just compress the elastomer a little further and it isolates the shaft from the threads. I could be mistaken, but I know this has been an issue with some bike shops that don't deal with suspension properly and that's the only thing I can see them being useful for.
  • 1 0
 @foggnm: Agree, its a very personal thing. They will never eliminate chatter completely but that's fine, I like a little bit of connection and feedback from my bike anyway.
  • 3 0
 This whole thread is making me think that my next fork purchase is actually just going to be an Avalanche damper for my current fork
  • 2 1
 @mashrv1: there are only 2 things you need for a superb fork - a stictionless chassis and an avy damper lol
  • 1 0
 @Alloypenguin: meh, any stiction = shit grip on gravel over hardpack, bit more, random behaviour in low speed corners on pavement
  • 1 0
 @chakaping: 20% sag no volume spacer 4 clicks from open on low 1 click from open on high.
  • 2 0
 @seb-stott: I think they can hurt, with respect to consistency. That rubber is going to change behavior with change in temperature: less vibration* in summer, more in winter. Back to the 90s!

*If they even work since they have seem to have more internal resistance to movement than the air spring's actual stiction. Then it hurts with respect to being another wear part that needs maintenance.
  • 1 0
 @baca262: Apart from reworking the bushings in the lowers, I don't know anything that will truly eliminate stiction. Can't say my fork displays what you are describing. It works. 96% happy with it.
  • 2 0
 @darkstar66: Buttercups aren't backwards compatible, with the exception of Zebs from 21+ (any Zeb, basically). Getting them on both sides of the lowers would require new air spring and damper, though I think you don't have to upgrade both at the same time.
  • 2 0
 @rich-2000: If you can find a select+ model I think it's well worth it. Only came on complete bikes (can't buy new aftermarket), and the damper is the same as the ultimate just with a single compression adjustment. I have a 21 lyrik select+ on my trail bike and it's pretty great.
  • 1 0
 @nickfranko: Then the Ohlins wasn’t setup properly. Small bump compliance is almost non-existent when not setup properly.
  • 1 0
 @darkstar66: The Zeb is the only older fork you can run the buttercups in. And you have to have the charger 3 and the new air spring to run them.
  • 1 0
 @mashrv1: If you're a rider who knows exactly what they want out of a fork, the Avy damper is a surefire way to get it. Customer service is cantankerous, and its not cheap, but it's a nice investment if you keep parts for 3-5 years. Plus you can support American manufacturing for something that isn't a gun!
  • 1 1
 @mashrv1: Just do a 50 hour service. I re-plushed mine that way Smile
  • 1 0
 @rob748: This is a universal truth with most things in the bike industry... It's really unfortunate.
  • 1 0
 @chakaping: Perhaps out of tolerance bushings/lowers/uppers? I've found Rockshox forks (which I love btw don't get me wrong) can sometimes be really sticky because of out of tolerance bushings/lowers/uppers. I've thrown away a set of Lyrik uppers because of this (the stanchions were slightly skewed outwards), the rest of the fork felt superb but off-the-top suppleness was completely eliminated.
  • 1 0
 @fred-frod: So in the way buttercups work now, the lowers are allowed to slide up a slight amount before air spring and damper stiction come into play, however the stiction between the lowers and uppers (wiper seal and bushings), the unsprung mass of the lowers needing to be accelerated, and even air pressure build up in the lowers (although very insignificant) all still work to slow the forks response to vibrations. By reducing and/or removing these factors, it would increase the performance of the buttercups, no? And they are acting differently to the tyres as they are there purely to provide grip with anything else they're doing being a side benefit. The buttercups are there specifically to reduce vibrations.
Am I missing something? I could very well be as I am no engineer.
  • 2 0
 @spuddo: I think your understanding is correct, the problem is that a lot of friction exists between the stanchions and the bushings/wiper seals. If you remove the lowers and slide them across, there is a significant amount of friction there, likely more than small vibrations would be able to break them free enough to move with the buttercups. You also have to consider that tires and fork flex will also absorb vibrations before the air spring/damper rods get any authority over it.

They are marketing it as a vibration damping solution, however things are often designed with one purpose then marketed as another. These could have multiple possible benefits: reduced likelihood of someone cracking a damper shaft by overtorquing it (this happens with some frequency as per my understanding), possibly make the fork feel less sticky as seals/oil wears over time (since most people don't maintain their suspension properly), and/or vibration damping, although I find the latter a bit sus. It's also possible the vibration damping is something that works well in a lab, but in practice and with production forks that aren't in perfect tolerances, not so much. You can have someone burnish the bushings (if they are sized wrong) and ensure proper oil in the lowers to help some, though.

Either way, for me the new Lyrik felt OK with them in it, I didn't get along with the Zeb though.
  • 1 0
 @shinook: What about the new Zeb didn't you get along with? Similar issues to the article or others?
  • 1 1
 @monkeynaut: guns rule
  • 21 1
 How many times will Sram sell us the Air sping upgrade : release a fork model then bigger negative chamber to improve sensiblity then updated piston because the forks is sucked down
  • 11 0
 Yeah it's kinda funny, with every iteration they go back and forth.
  • 10 3
 I gave up with RS forks once Ohlins released the M2, Manitou Mezzers got the update and Fox made Grip2
  • 2 0
 What you don't like buying "updated" airshafts and Luftcappes for your new fork so you can feel your hands after a ride.
And try to decipher the three code numbers
For the same part.
Its Sram the company that has 30+ bleed blocks in their catalogue.
Really
  • 1 0
 @lake-st: I think you've got the wrong settings in your forks if you can't feel your hands after a run. plenty of folks out there going quick on stock internals.
  • 18 3
 One day they will fix the air springs with these new things called Coil Springs.
  • 6 0
 As a long term smashpot coil convert I roll my eyes at all the dicking around with spring curves which seems to trade one aspect of performance for another. Makes me cringe a little when damping is used to overcome deficiencies in the spring curve.
  • 1 0
 100%, I put an AC3 conversion in my Lyrik, everyone who rides it in the car park thinks its terrible because it doesnt feel like air, but is blow away by how good it feels out on the trail.
The one thing I have learned in the last 20 years is that everything is compromise and I would rather compromise weight over performance or comfort when it comes to coil v air. I just feel more comfortable on coil front and rear, I dont care about changing a spring if I put weight on or somehow lose weight, I dont care that I cant get springs in 1lb increments, I just care that my coils small bump is outstanding, it supports in the middle and doesnt bottom out or blow though the travel.
  • 9 0
 Could be "proven by science" that my good "old" 2021 Lyrik Ultimate does what I'm asking for...
  • 1 0
 I loved my 2.1 charger Lyrik. Easy to service and very versatile. I ride Fox/grip2 now. But having tried one of the '23 RS Zebs (and also having owned the previous version) was like you, didn't feel like it did anything better. Felt very spikey to me. I traded it to someone that loves RS.
  • 6 0
 I am a Rockshox fan, and I like the feel of the Charger, but I think a big unstated reason for the change to ifp is that the bladders have a failure problem for people who out a lot of hours on their forks. I’ve had 2 fail myself and had multiple friends with failures. They only last 2-3 seasons if you ride a lot.

That said, I’m excited to try the new version and the buttercups and see how they feel.
  • 2 0
 Yep, I had a charger bladder rip as well.
  • 2 0
 I have a 2022 pike ultimate, Is It possible to get only the bladder in case of failure?
  • 1 0
 @Alexh1983: yes, you can buy just the bladder and then rebuild and bleed the bladder.
  • 1 0
 @Alexh1983: rebuild and bleed the damper that is
  • 1 0
 @dthomp325: many thanks!
  • 2 0
 @Alexh1983: from third party companies, yes.

SRAM tries to sell a new complete cartridge
  • 1 0
 @JohSch: you can buy just the bladder here in the US. I just checked and they are currently available on Amazon.
  • 7 4
 Ignoring the content of this great post entirely because I have to ask - does anyone else get annoyed when companies refuse to put a 'the' in front of their product names? For example, RS might say 'Zeb's chassis offers a balance of stiffness and compliance' rather than 'The Zeb chassis ...'

I hope I'm not the only pedant annoyed by this trend (which I'm seeing all over the place and not just in biking).
  • 7 11
flag JohanG (Apr 13, 2023 at 7:10) (Below Threshold)
 grammer nazis have a much lower life expectancy, studies show.
  • 14 0
 @JohanG: misspelling grammar is a great troll. you should work for rockshox
  • 11 1
 @JohanG: People that call other people Nazis over trivial things which upset them get divorced 6x more, are generally unhappy people, and have a lower life expectancy, studies show.
  • 3 0
 Great detailed content. Really think that Pinkbike should write their articles and then send a summary of the negative claims to the product's engineering team for comment or rebuttal. And then include their rebuttal (but not modify the original article/review the editor wrote). This would provide a lot more information to the reader at it would allow the engineering team to maybe explain why the Pinkbike Editor is seeing something and how that applies in their testing/real world.
  • 5 0
 And a review of the Zeb Ultimate? does it work in real life? lot of ideas out there
  • 12 0
 Dropping very soon. This article is sort of an aside to the review.
  • 1 0
 Mine felt like hot garbage. I got along OK with the 2023 Lyrik Ultimate, but the Zeb Ultimate felt a lot worse for me. It tracked poorly, was harsh, and spiked badly. Granted, it didn't dive out of control like some forks will and was composed, rode high in the travel, but I have ridden other forks in that category that accomplished that without feeling like riding a buckboard.

I also didn't break it down like I did my Lyrik and ensure proper oil volume, no excess busing friction, oil seals, clean excess grease of the air spring piston, etc. It might have been improved by those things but I got so annoyed it felt like shit after paying >$1k for it and having to immediately do a bunch of work to it, I just got rid of it and moved on. This may also account for the variations in experiences you see, I just think it's bullshit you spend so much and immediately have to do a bunch of work to it to make it feel right.
  • 1 0
 @shinook: These 23 models need bath/air spring oil and seal grease from the factory. Different fork after that.
  • 1 0
 @ghill28: Thats bad aye, OK if you do it at home. But if you're a regular person you either wait a year to service then find out it was good all along, or you pay $250 for a pro service on your new fork on day 1. Either way
  • 1 0
 @dkendy1: It's sure not great, but it's the same for the Fox units too. Conversely, it should also be viewed as a key part of routine maintenance like waxing/lubricating the chain, or keeping fresh sealant in the tires. Would like the testing to be objective.
  • 3 0
 @seb-stott Hey Seb, thanks for another great article. I'm not sure I understand the phenomenon of hysteresis correctly but wouldn't the ButterCups cause it and would that be an advantage or disadvantage?
  • 2 0
 @seb-stott would you recommend upgrading to Charger 3 or 2.1 from the basic OEM one?

I Bought a bike with “simpler” suspension (SDLX select and Zeb R) on purpose to have less chances to make it work worse. Now with time I’m getting ready for more tunability, though my wallet is not so Smile

Thank you for an interesting read.
  • 2 5
 Get yourself a Charger 2.1 if you need it, Charger 3 is really not on par with yet...
  • 2 0
 I'm all for the simple.. For example, the Ohlins products are more or less "simple" from my standpoint. Yeah the fork has that ramp chamber, but the compression and rebound damping on everything is very easy to use and doesn't overwhelm you with options. Also really liked the simplicity of the Manitou "expert" forks.
  • 6 1
 To defend the stiff pucks, high speed impacts are far different than you just pushing down on the thing with your hand.
  • 3 1
 But for higher forces the stiction is overcome and the fork actually starts working. So there they don't help either.
  • 4 1
 [bs translator engage] "We made something that can be produced very cheaply and is good enough to get by so we can secure oem sales and ensure the popularity of our name and product."
  • 5 0
 It would be interesting to see someone replace the buttercups with a metal spacer and see if they can tell the difference
  • 1 0
 indeed
  • 1 0
 I got the 2023 Zeb Ultimate about 6 weeks ago, and only because they are pretty much the only 190mm travel fork out there. Not sure what to make of it yet. I do notice when you turn the HSC knob, the LSC rotates with it, is this due to the "in-series" change that was mentioned? This is the first time I've ever decided to learn how to use my equipment instead of riding inferior setups.
  • 2 0
 How does the buttercup move to absorb the small bumps without their being any movement between the uppers and lowers. If your handlebars stay still and the wheel moves something has to take up the difference
  • 3 0
 The uppers and lowers can still move slightly without the actual air spring piston moving. Most of the stiction comes from the pressurized air spring piston inside which is why coil forks are more supple despite using the same chassis, and why kashima won’t fix the stiction problem
  • 3 0
 Shouldn’t the two damping charts be labeled Figure 3 and Figure 2.1? I’m assuming here that the previous Rockshox is included in “other dampers.”
  • 2 1
 "Meanwhile, closing the high-speed adjuster to stop it from moving too much on big hits"

That's not the right way to think about it. Closing the adjuster (adding damping) adds _control_ to the movement (by applying an opposite force proportional to the shaft speed). It's not just trying to _stop_ the movement.
  • 3 1
 "stopping it from moving" is not the same as "stopping it from moving too much". The difference between the two is loosely the definition of a well tuned damper.
  • 3 0
 @ak-77: I guess it's just English being ambiguous. "stopping it from moving too much" is such a round-about way to say "control movement". I read it as "too much stopping (of movement)", but stop is absolute, you're stopped or you're not, you can't stop too much.
  • 1 0
 Those graphs are pretty much the same, just shifted. It's not magic, they just changed/reduced the overlap of the high- and low-speed circuits. They don't crosstalk because they don't overlap, because they have reduced range compared to "other dampers". A good 4-way damper can be made to act pretty close to the Charger 3 with just external adjustments, and maybe an HSC valving change if you actually want the regression of the C3's dotted blue.
  • 3 2
 "With the 2023 generation of forks, RockShox have gone back on this;"

You need to call out this bullshit louder. Telling us something is better, and then telling the next new thing is also better,except it's the same as original which means the first "better" was a f*cking lie. This is change for the sake of change, it's completely anti-customer.
  • 1 0
 Is it just me? I just cannot understand how EVERY SINGLE year we have yet another iteration of a damper from Rock Shox (or Fox). And every single year it is supposed to be better. How can that be, and how it fits with the way engineering progresses (because it obviously is incompatible with a calendar deadline!), I cannot figure out.
  • 2 0
 I put the new damper and air shaft in my 2022 Zeb Select+ and I can feel a big improvement. Or maybe it's because I have fresh seals and new oil...
  • 2 0
 I've ridden a fair few forks in my time, but the 2023 Zeb is by far the best. It somehow manages to stay high in its travel while being very supple off the top.
  • 1 1
 And this damper enables an adjustment extreme to make it act the opposite! Hooray!
  • 1 1
 You edited the "Charger 3 Bottom Line" part. Why?

Because you realized the explanation of "it enables a mode that decreases small bump compliance _and_ bottom out resistance" is something that not many people want?

The current paragraph still kinda has it backwards. It's less that Charger 3 lets you add high-speed without altering low-speed (because in "other dampers" you'll already have some high-speed* in order to have a lot of low-speed) and more that it lets you _reduce_ high-speed without losing low-speed. It's removing one extreme of adjustment that just isn't really super common.

*(which is fine in practice because you probably _do_ want some control of high-speed movements)
  • 1 0
 Put a Push HC97 on the Rock Shox and will beat any fork, also waiting from Push to release an updated ACS system for the buttercups so I can have my next fork on sight as well.
  • 2 0
 Or, you know, just pull out the 2023 air spring (plus buttercups), replace with 2022 spring + Vorsprung Secus and have a better package overall.
  • 4 1
 Shout out to NSR Racing - the coil kit for the boxxer is brilliant.
  • 1 0
 But can you get it, they only have seal kits on website but seems like they don’t exist anymore
  • 1 0
 They should put some magnets and a wiring coil in it, like those "shake to charge" flashlights. It could power some electronics and would literally be a charger fork.
  • 1 0
 So a new buttercup air spring into an older zeb will most likely require more LSC and more pressure based on the negative changes?
  • 1 0
 "Obviously, it's the bicycle industry form of science where you don't have to publish any evidence, context, data, or definitions"

THANK YOU
  • 3 0
 i miss my old lyrik. :/
  • 1 0
 What are the people riding MRP saying these days? I've been happy with my pike. But looking at what I'm building for '24.
  • 1 0
 So can you put buttercups on ‘23 select+ forks that dot come with them stock?
  • 1 0
 Surely your tires should already be performing the task that the buttercups are supposedly doing?
  • 2 0
 So they put a Luftkappe on it
  • 3 2
 Buttercups just look to me anyway like they increase unsprung mass...
  • 2 0
 This and they also reduce lower leg volume which increase ramp-up, a trait that those forks don't need considering the new iteration seems too progressive for most, especially in the long travel versions.
  • 1 0
 @seb-stott I am not your only fan here , but you are my OnlyFans
  • 1 0
 Highly appreciate this detailed insights! Can't wait for the full review.
  • 2 1
 Is it better than me fox , ohlins or manitou?
  • 1 1
 My 99 Monster T will still outlive any of that sh... Too much tech and too much stuf to go worng and brake...
  • 10 0
 Well sure... And a fucking wagon will outlive a Ferrari..... But guess what bud, some of us don't want to drag a wagon around.
  • 1 0
 How did people ride bikes in 2022?
  • 3 0
 Begrudgingly, and with much wailing and gnashing of the teeth.
  • 1 1
 RS went from department store level to most serious in business in 15 years
  • 1 0
 Anyone happen to see Vorsprung developing their own rear shock?!
  • 1 2
 All of that work & it still comes out behind the Grip 2...must be frustrating for SRAM
  • 1 1
 Sorry but I just read another article saying that Fox is better
  • 1 0
 IFP FTW!
  • 6 7
 I just need to know its Rulezman approved
  • 6 0
 It isn't
  • 17 0
 He's good at som things but got a rhetoric like a 5 year old! Doesn't really get his message thru when you say everything and everybody is bad at everything. Could be something good if he would expand and be less naive though.
Good for him that he can run a Ikon for enduro trails but doesn't work for other/most people.
  • 6 0
 @LDG: his tyre choice and obsession for unsprung masses is completely bullshit, you need the lightest thing for the purpose. xc rims with rope spokes and xc tyres are not meant for enduro riding, tell me whatever you want, best suspension will be shit if you need to run 35psi and have no grip
  • 3 0
 @NicolaZesty314: I’m still not 100% sold on the whole USD forks having less unsprung mass theory, given that non-inverted forks have really light magnesium lowers, whereas the stanchions on USD forks are no lighter than those on other forks. I’d love to see some actually scientific testing of this whereby forks were literally fully dismantled and parts put in two piles for sprung and unsprung mass. Otherwise it’s just very anecdotal and theoretical, which is of little value to anyone. I’d also love to see testing that actually proves that having less unsprung mass does make a difference, because I’m somewhat sceptical of whether having slightly less unsprung mass on the front end makes much of a difference.
  • 2 0
 @LDG: also see where you’re coming from regarding the way he comes across, he makes a lot of big statements about big companies, and as good as it is that he’s challenging the likes of Sram on stuff, I feel like he hams it up a bit sometimes. Although this could easily be down to the fact that English is not his first language and he is ultimately still trying to sell his own products and services just like every other suspension company and tuner
  • 2 0
 @NicolaZesty314: yep, who cares how great my suspension is setup when my rims in two pieces and I am walking down
  • 6 0
 @samdaman1: I've always appreciated that Steve over at Vorsprung admits that what he and the large manufacturers are trying to accomplish are two different things. They need to make a mass production product that hits specific price points and appeal to a wide audience, while he can make targeted upgrades that address the wants/needs of a more specific market and dont have to worry about how it scales in production.
  • 1 0
 Nope, he took the new pike and retrofitted a modded Mezzer damper and different airspring… basically no longer a RS Pike at that point. He probably makes good suspension but to produce suspension for the masses there needs to be some sacrifices made by RS/Fox.
  • 2 0
 @samdaman1: There's a 100+ years of testing in many types of vehicles that proves less unsprung mass makes a difference. It's also the result of the simple laws of mechanics that Newton wrote down in the 17th century.
Whether the small loss of unsprung mass in certain forks can be felt by a typical rider, and whether it weighs up against the disadvantages that came with those design choices is a different matter of course....
  • 1 0
 He's an interesting fella, pushing superlight boutique stuff, and then posting strava ride with caption "full gas" on his superbike with descending segment times easily achievable on average XC HT.
  • 1 0
 @samdaman1: that a lower unsprung mass is better has already been proven, on what he says about the intend forks Vs a normal one is yet to be seen as they lack torsional rigidity, also that have been tested, by yeah he’s interesting but not everything that he says is gold
  • 2 0
 @void: another thing, if you claim that you can ride fast everywhere with your super light wheels and tires, don’t ride the smoothest trails in finale, ride where the EWS took place then we agree, I’ve seen smashing rims and dh chasings with the same pressures he runs, so I highly doubt xc wheel sets are good for enduro, let alone that you need to retention the wheel every couple rides so what’s the point
  • 2 4
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