Interbike Preview: Two Carbon Bikes from Ellsworth
Ellsworth has been dancing on the edge of a full-carbon production bike for years, first, with the development of its half-carbon Truth, dual-suspension XC design and later, the Evolve 29er, with an aluminum swingarm. For 2014, the Southern California bike brand will have a pair of full-carbon bikes - both sporting 27.5-inch wheels - the 120-millimeter-travel Absolute Truth and the 140-millimeter-travel Epiphany Carbon XC.
Ellsworth joins a growing list of small and mid-sized bike brands that once specialized in building premium aluminum frames and are now under intense pressure from big-box bike makers to make the leap to carbon production - and to make the inevitable journey to Pacific Rim composite shops. The experience gained by Ellsworth in its previous carbon products is evident in the design and quality of construction of its first complete frame efforts, and the quality is more than skin deep. The new frames are crafted using Japanese-made Toray carbon material, which is highly regarded by the cycling industry as the best available.
With a devoted following of XC/trail riders, it should come as no surprise that Ellsworth's carbon Truth and Epiphany share geometry and component selections that mirror those purposes. For PB members, the Epiphany Carbon XC seems most appropriate, with its 69.5 degree head angle and 140-millimeter-travel chassis. Ellsworth's brand of four-bar suspension has proven to deliver excellent climbing and pedaling performance, and the new, slightly slacker geometry should boost the bike's technical skills to provide a nice balance for technical trail riding.
The following photos and information were extracted from the Ellsworth Press release:
Epiphany Carbon XC
Epiphany Carbon XC 275 frame features Ellsworth's 'Anisotropic Force Vector Carbon' layup design — this high modulus carbon fiber is provided by Toray, the world’s leading producer of aerospace carbon. The Epiphany Carbon features a laden head angle of 69.5 degrees, and 140mm of rear travel coupled with 150mm Fox Racing 34mm Kashima CTD front fork. This geometry with the new 27.5 wheels size translates to the same legendary handling as the Epiphany namesake with 26” wheels, 30.9mm seat tube for dropper posts, and internal cable routing for stealth style remote dropper or normal, 12 x 142 rear axle, available in three component groups, with wheel and component options. A new chainstay design providing optimum tire clearance and increased stiffness without additional weight. “The Epiphany Carbon, with its stiffer, lighter, more aggressive trail geometry, is an ideal machine for riders seeking that nimble climbing long travel trail bike experience,” Ellsworth said. “Just like the original Epiphany, the new Carbon XC 275 utilizes the time tested evolved, refined, and proven ICT suspension to provide zero energy loss, fully active travel. The result is a benchmark in maximized efficiency, Increased traction and control for more speed, and reduced rider fatigue for more distance.”
The 2014 Epiphany XC Carbon is available in a beautiful, Nude 3K carbon with an elegant and artistic gold tribal detailing, available in S, M, and L. Its Aerospace Aluminum cousin, the Epiphany Enduro 275, also debuts for 2014, in Ellsworth’s timeless shot peened, anodized and laser etched finish, with 27.5” wheels — and is available in five sizes (XS to XL).
Epiphany Carbon XC 275 Specs:
SRAM X9 — $5,995 MSRP
Shimano XT — $6,995 MSRP
Shimano XTR —$8,995 MSRP
Frameset — $3,495 MSRP
Find all the specs and geometry for the 2014 Epiphany Carbon XC here.
Absolute Truth - 2014
The new Absolute Truth features the 27.5” wheels, with the same wheelbase and geometry of the legendary Truth frame. With the lower optimized stand over of the ZS style headset and the unique shaping of the front triangle, Ellsworth has captured the aggressive geometry and bio-kinetically optimized rider position ideal for XC and Endurance racing, complete with 120 mm of travel. Coupled with the updated ICT suspension for today's gearing, 300 percent higher compaction pressure of the Toray Aerospace Carbon Fiber, and 120mm of XC efficient travel — the Absolute Truth is a new benchmark for XC racing and endurance riding.
The 2014 Absolute Truth is available in a beautiful, multi-toned Candy Apple Red with pin striping and detail worthy of an art show. Its aerospace-aluminum cousin, the Truth, also with 27.5” wheels — are both available in five sizes (XS to XL).
Absolute Truth Specs:
SRAM X9 — $5,995 MSRP
Shimano XT — $6,995 MSRP
Shimano XTR —$8,995 MSRP
Frameset — $3,495 MSRP
Click here for complete specs and geometry for the Absolute Truth
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"aggressive geometry" = way too steep for the travel, so the bike aggressively tries to make you eat sh!t on anything technical.
A bigger wheel trail bike... geometry is actually spot on for the category, but nope, armchair engineers on pinkbike KNOW more and complain. Its not a 26er so again, they'll complain. It doesn't have a 20mm hub, complain. Its a Fox 34.... complain. As to the price complaint which comes up everytime such a bike is reviewed and I have to say everytime I post that pinkbike, mba, and others TEST what is given to be tested. Radek isn't going out and ordering these bikes on his visa card so his writers/editors can ride them. If you want "value" bikes to be tested, step up and pay for one to be sent in for testing. If you cannot afford one of those, let alone of these higher end ones, don't bitch about it because there are people here who CAN afford these bikes. And manufacturers listen to us because we do buy them.
As to Ellsworth, those bikes look really original and designed with lots of attentionto detail. Nice
hilarious. you just made my day.
I am also just smart enough to know that for that price, I can get a complete Giant Trance 1 bike, or a Santa Cruz Solo frame and have $800 left over; in either case, you'll have a better designed and engineered bike.
At this point, most HT 29ers have 69° head angles...
Fact #1 Ellsworth has ALWAYS been a boutique brand. Their bikes have always been selected for the discriminating buyer with the discriminating bank account.
Fact #2 I am not a Ellsworth fan in principal (due to Tony's past business practices) but I do understand the market segment they aim for, and cater to, and its not for cyclists in the cheap seats.
Fact #3 They sponsor Josh Bender, whom probably knows more about bikes and does development testing for them than most of the membership here.
Fact #4 They also have an annual weekend gathering for Ellsworth owners which has in times past been at Tony Ellsworth own Ranch where regular owners can come and stay and spend the weekend riding with Josh and others and get tips/feedback on how to setup their bikes better.
Fact #5 The Ellsworth 4-bar layout has looked the same with the huge rear links since frame #1 nearly 20 years ago. Its part and parcel with the ICT patented design layout. Kona which sometimes is compared to them ISN'T the same sort of linkage at all (the dropout pivot location is what matters) and has never been the same sort of boutique brand. If you compare Ellsworth to someone, you do it to Ibis, or Ventena.
Fact #6 The near 70 degree head angle, works just fine as a compromise for bikes which are actually expected to be PEDALED up a hill. Slack angles make for wandering steering, something you don't want when fighting against gravity.
Should I go on?
#2 No good bikes are cheap, especially carbon but there are definitely bikes from almost EVERY manufacturer that presents better value for the same type of kit.
#3 Almost every good bike maker hires smart people. I'm not an engineer.
#4 Fairly cool... I guess.
#5 Still a 4 bar/horst. Not that special.
#6 Any fit person without noodle arms can pedal a 68-67 degree HA up a hill. And it'll be more fun going down. No one can tell me that a 70 isn't more skittish than a 67 on the downs. Why make a bike with some much travel for climbing anyhow?
@lalena... same basic frame design yes, as far as the suspension layout but then, its patented, and it still actually works as intended, even the long travel application like the Momentums, pedal really damn well. I can fault Ellsworth over their construction durability and warranty and advertising deceptions of years past, but they at least got themselves a good design that really doesn't need to be changed just because some people are tired of looking at it. If the bike doesn't appeal to you, move on to something that does. Its really that simple. Or at least it should be. As to the geometry, actually no, they're definitely not using the same geometry as twenty years ago.
@Jhou... and this is a great example as to why the editors/writers simply don't bother replying to comments on their articles, it just generates more peanut gallery criticisms.
@scottrallye... people need to stop thinking of Josh as JUST that guy who hucked off ridiculously high things.
But when the first comment is...
"$3500 for the frame, go home ellsworth, you're drunk"
And it was already at a couple dozen positive prop level (its at +182 as I write this), well gee... that's not what manufacturers want to be reading. PB users are damned lucky that they're allowed to comment on reviews at all from the quick and easy safety of their computers. Print magazines you actually have to write a letter and hope the magazine editor deems it worthy of publication.
As to spending $3500 on this frame... the suspension design itself is basic tech, hell most every suspension design for bicycles is basic tech. But actually then BUILDING that technology into a bicycle frame... that's not so basic. You think its cheap to build these bikes?! Do you even the slightest idea how much it costs in tooling alone (nevermind the materials) to build a full suspension frame? Just the up front costs. I'm sure these new all-carbon models are running the company 100k in production start up costs. I don't begrudge them in wanting to make that capital outlay back in as short a time as possible.
Perhaps I should have gone with a more childish first response and said "can't afford one? sell a kidney". That's the usual sort of stupid statement that gets positive results on here.
WTF ! deeeight.. wtf..
there is still something as free speech.. and if we werent allowed to comment someone will eventually open a forum topic about it,.. for discussion .. positive or negative !
these insinuations >> we are Lucky to.. is the same damm reason things are going so very well in the states.. (pittsburgh)
un -friggin believable
seconds why do i need to edit my comment for ? no profanity.. no cursing.. so what rules are you about to enforce..?
(also you make it a threat.,. either you do so..and explain why.. or you dont.. you dont posh with mod power..)
thirds.. this is not a private site.,. everyone can see it contents.. you only need an account to post.. private means completely shielded from the rest of the community,.. likie the bilderderg group...
i am saying this.. if this misuse and comunist rules are enforced by the people.. we are truly lost..
i have a bottle of olive oil and a can of lighter gas.. c'mon .. invade me...
seconds.. the site automatically uses a * in every F-word..
if you would act upon every F... it would be a 2 man day job...
And yes, we get an auto-alert when the filter robot replaces the vowel with the * so to know when to go in and see what was posted, the context, and decide whether to suspend the user or not.
but for the rest of religious peeps.. damned also is a curse. .
but funny... the cops do that too lately.. i think you have guide lines.. that explicit tell you not to act in a personal way .. but by the rules.. you have to enforce..
you are a mod.. and should Always give the example.. otherwise . .you are no different from the rest..
also you can not tell people how to react on news ..or what to post..
its not like.. you may post !
> but only positive things i agree on..
@Cyberhawk - Soon in Europe, if you draw a picture of Mohammed, or write something having notions of racial or sexual discrimination, you will be more likely to get mugged by online-activists between 20-40 rather than by one of affected people... the Death Camp of Tolerance is in the making
www.pinkbike.com/photo/10102999
www.pinkbike.com/photo/10105303/#top
deeeight, your attitude is ridiculous and the "facts' you spout are hardly that. bender isn't an engineer and as far as being a judge on the freeride tour, i'd think you'd find that most modern riders are perplexed at his inclusion as one. he may have went big, but he did it with little style or skill. he rode the longest travel frame and fork he could find and dead sailored everything. his skillset as a rider is somewhat limited. big balls, yes. grace and style? no. so making him out like a positive at this point for ellsworth is a little hard to take.
you want to see drop huge natural stunts with grace check out doerfling, now there's a rider with skill and balls. bender doesnt compare
just because you're offended , doesn't mean you're right !
#Ricky gervais.
I agree with everything everyone said. Bikes with 63 degree head angles are shit for most people. 69 is fine when you're used to it. I can ride my STP fast as shit downhill, that's got a 69 degree head angle and no back suspension.
What I do find mazing though is how this company is still in business. They make the shittest looking bikes and I've never seen one in real life. Someone said they're popular is Asia? Well I've never seen one. Having said that I feel the same about a lot of the smaller brands, such as Pivot, Last and Nicolai. They all look shit and dated.
I guess most people who actually buy bikes rather than just talking about them disagree with me, because they must sell in order to stay in business.
Me? I want a carbon Wilson even though I'd be a lot richer and faster on a Trance... I just want the best looking bike money can buy even though it doesn't really suit my riding. How the f*ck have Honda sold so many CBR1000s when they are shit scary, totally uncomfortable and unusable on the road? People buy what they want, not what they need, that's why.
In conclusion, somebody somewhere likes what Ellsworth are doing.
Contrary to what the people always complaining in news articles on the front page about whatever new thing is being reviewed would like to believe, the majority of site members are not dh/dj/other gravity disciipline riders any longer, nor do the majority really bother with the polls. The site has six hundred THOUSAND plus registered user accounts, yet never breaks past four digits combined poll results, and never gets more than triple digits of comments on any of the news articles. The majority of pb users don't post at all. I know probably a hundred local riders who have accounts here and i have only ever seen TWO of them actually post comments to a news item. There are a couple dozen i can think of that i have seen post in the forums, and some using the buy sell listings, but overall the majority of local riders on here would identify as the type of riders on the exact sorts of bikes being reviewed here, on terrain/trails these ellsworths would do exceptionally well on. There are even a bunch on ellsworths (and a whole lot on Ibis mojos of one version or another) and this is the level of bike they dream of owning.
seconds.. FB is winning from the forums.. (so i have heard.. i have no FB
they have their own groups..
Ellsworths keep looking the way they do (not talking the suspension layout they use but the colours/finish/annodizing) because that's what their buyers have kept wanting. You and others may find them ugly, but why go around telling people that they're ugly, instead of just saying nothing at all ? See that's what the majority of PB users who read the articles do. They read the story, form opinions in their head, and then move on. They don't stop to post a comment.
double ellsworths sales because of these comments here? lol, i think not. where does your data come from? pinkbike isn't that important or influential.
the people you feel should be muzzled, are the reason this site is relevant. not you. not richard cunningham. the 600000+ users of this site. try not to forget that part when you attempt to ridicule a poster about having a job or not and whether they think a $3500 frame is overpriced or not.
Even your good points are now shrouded by your lack of tact. The fact that your are still arguing Ellsworth's benefits, or PinkBike's demographics, proves you really don't understand what this disagreement is about. Arguing the legalities of free speech on an internet forum? Saying that readers should just shut up and look in the mirror before posting, because this is a FREE site? Pardon my honesty, but you have no business being a moderator of this or any site.
"Do you even the slightest idea how much it costs in tooling alone (nevermind the materials) to build a full suspension frame? Just the up front costs. I'm sure these new all-carbon models are running the company 100k in production start up costs. I don't begrudge them in wanting to make that capital outlay back in as short a time as possible.
Perhaps I should have gone with a more childish first response and said "can't afford one? sell a kidney". That's the usual sort of stupid statement that gets positive results on here."
You clearly do not have any interest in the larger ecosystem of consumers or distributors in the MTB universe, and you are not open to intelligently discussing issues with people who CARE about this sport, people who take time out of their day to voice their opinion about recent developments, PEOPLE WHO HAVE INVESTED DECADES OF THEIR LIVES INTO MAKING THIS SPORT WHAT IT IS. Instead, you'd rather alientate us, tell us we're poor, or that we don't know any better.
Shame on you.
In any case, I'm sure you'll be happy to know that you won't see my posts on this site, nor will you count my 'hits' to your posts. Good luck!
Otherwise, agree to disagree.
cannot speak about Ellsworth since 2011 but I used to work for their UK distributor and can say in the 5 years previous to leaving their employment in 2011, we did sell ALOT of Ellsworth into the UK market - mainly the Epiphany and Moment
they were always very well received in the UK magazine reviews, even when put up against "big brands". Customers seemed very happy with their bikes, and we are not talking about wealthy coffee-shop cruisers, but proper trail riders out there in the rain, mud and snow, who bought their frames or custom builds with their hard earned money!
admittedly the ICT design did look dated, and some customers have had genuine gripes with Ellsworth warranty in the past, but the bikes always rode well (even if the geometry was not as advertised) and were seen as very desirable in the UK
"This applies to all of the people posting their uninformed opinions. YOU AREN"T THAT IMPORTANT!!! "" lol, your own words
But trying to get back to topic of the discussion of the points of these bikes themselves I would like to respond to a comment you made earlier before things went off the rails.
"That headtube angle is perfect for slaying the crushed stone path on the way to Starbucks." hilarious. you just made my day. "
I think you could have written that another way, but to answer it, the head angle is appropriate to the sort of bikes they are and the riding they're intended to be used for, and the terrain for which they were developed on. Mountain bike geometry that works great one place though won't always work well someplace else. Also individual preferences vary to their own local trails and bike setup. I think most PB'ers do customize their rides to their own tastes.
@willie1 Tony Ellsworth himself was caught on mtbr's forums nearly ten years ago setting up dummy accounts to slag competitors and prop up his own products/service. At the time everyone could see the IP# of posters in the html source code for posts though which is how he was caught. Its would be naive to think that he was the only one to ever do that in the bike world though. I'm sure some of the trolls we get here are actually company staffers/designers.
@Firefox2551 et qbert2000... good point but more constructive less channeling of me maybe?
@all... the look of the bikes relates to the ICT design, they will always have long nearly parallel links. They're trying to line up the chain force line with a virtual point in space several METERS ahead of the front tire. Most designs pivot around some point in space that actually is occupied by part of the bicycle itself. Draw a line between the pivots of the upper and lower links of your 4-bar bikes (ie, not Kona's which are single pivot linkages) and you'll see this for yourself.
My opinion comes from knowledge gleaned from designing and building my own frames, as well as owning over 20 different bikes over the years. For trail riding, slacker than 68 hta ( with other complimentary geo) presents too many compromises in neutral handling. My opinion is not correct, but the science and testing behind it confirms that for general trail riding, 69 HTA with 650b and 130-150mm travel is the sweet spot. It's a very versatile set of parameters. I have ridden several bikes back to back many times. Unless you live in the mountains, 67 hta is too slack."
Maybe you should post your data in the new Marin news release. Those guys aren't following the science and testing you quote. They're crazy. Running 27.5 wheels with unridable 67.5 degree headtube angle. Lol. Evidently you're not the next expert you think you are :0
My enduro feels plenty fine with it's 'unridable' 'slow' 'marketing' 66.5 deg head angle. I must have not gotten the memo telling me to ride slower and to stop passing clowns on bikes with dated, slow geometry. For shame, I must really be ruining the faulty concept that head angles and geometry hasn't evolved since the 90s and that 69deg isn't steep and sketchy on FS trail bikes for people who actually haul ass. Maybe I should jack up my BB past 14" and trim my bars just over 12" to fit in because that's what worked once upon a time (yea, I'm old enough to remember). My CX bike has a steep head angle so maybe I should ride that to fit in.
Hell, my bike in the 90s had a 69deg head angle..... I still bombed down hills on it, but you know what, it was sketchy and not as dialed as bikes today. Using the Mojo as a comparison is erroneous. The 27.5" version that's actually comparable with 130mm of rear travel has a 67.1 deg head angle. www.ibiscycles.com/bikes/mojo_hdr650b/#size
Every company has moved in this direction based on real work feedback from fast riders, realizing that it not only handles better, but offers better stability at speed. Rambling on about facts on 'geometry' without ever performed force vector calculations is a fools errand. Enjoy what works for you, but don't tell the world what works based on faulty information and opinion.
Setting the HA under 67deg and raising the cockpit like it happens with 140+ forks, virtually turns the bike into a fireroad uphiller, it is damn ineffective to ride up a technical single track on such drunk flip floping donkey. I mean I get the dh factor of it, but people better stop pretending that it takes nothing from uphills alright? At the same time people who sit on their asses while manouvering through rocks and roots will find it hard to handle a head angle lower than 69.
The point of the trail bike is to make everything fun. You're right, a slacker (in comparison) HA makes the fork work better (think about where forces are applied in both scenarios), at a slight trade off. I will (as most people will) take a minor loss for climbing to gain a whole lot of stability for everything else, which is exactly what trail bikes were ment to be. Pump, jump, rail... then bobble your way back up to do it all over again with a smile on your face.
Again, XC bikes, and race bikes are an entirely different type of bike. THEN, and only then does the race to the top count more than the enjoyment blasting to the bottom.
I ride in the foothills area between Rob and Cadomin Alberta. Look it up if you need to. I have ridden 67HTA and 69HTA (and in the past 71HTA.) I can tell you the middle ground is the most versatile. It isn't the best at descending, but I have to go up an equal amount for each descent. I don't shuttle. If I did, the Titus would be my first choice, not the Ibis.
The link above is the Mojo HDR- same category as the El Guapo and Rune. The SLR, which is the trail bike uses 69HTA. You are comparing apples to oranges. AM bikes work with 67HTA, trail bikes work with 69 HTA. 68 works with 26", 69HTA is better with 650b.
Waki hit the nail on the head here.
Pinkbike will never bin the comments section because it needs hits.
Ellsworth will double their sales this month? So they'll sell eight instead of the usual four units? So they should be thanking me for commenting at all!
Great riding on those steep headtube angles..........
That picture is a common occurrence if you have actually been either involved (I have) or watched (I have) UCI XC races. About half the field walk down steeps or anything technically challenging or, if you've been paying attention to the last UCI WC round, complain about berms..........
So yeah, I wouldnt trust the build quality of the alliminium frames but my experience with their customer service is not that bad. What I didnt like was when I put a complaint on their facebook page they blocked me along with a number of others. They are very self righteous. Ive met guys who work there at trade shows and they straight up admit that they are bhind the times on geometry and it's coming from the top that they have to persevere with the designs they use.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoXORtIibwQ
Ellsworth got no alibi.
TORAYCA® carbon fibers, produced in a wide range of material properties, are specifically designed to meet your diverse and challenging applications.
...like one size fits all...pr-sh..t.
That Ellsworth is going straight to the landfill.
So... therefore Ellsworth are doing the same thing that every other carbon manufacturer has been doing - laying carbon weave in certain direction (or multiple layers in different directions) to get more strength for less weight.
I concur with the above comments... it is all marketing B.S.
people with jobs? I work my ass off and make about 200k a year and wouldn't dream of spending that kind of money on a frame. $3500 for a frame is STUPID. Things have truly gotten out of hand. And too be clear, I am not an "enthusiast", I am a fanatic. I ride everyday. hard. I read this site. everyday. My cash is better spent going to whistler or colorado for good riding than trying to impress my friends because my riding sucks. I live in Los Angeles and half the guys on the trails are finance sector d-bags who show up in Porsche Cayannes etc. with the latest carbon Ibis/Santa Cruz/Specialized S-works dream bikes and can't ride to save there lives. I used to work with one of these guys - he brought his $10k Ibis. To be a dick I brought my Redline Monocog fully rigid single speed. $500 complete. wore flip flops. schooled him up. schooled him down. he didn't know enough to be humiliated.
Anyway - you touched a nerve. All I'm saying is, if you spend that kind of stupid money on a bike, you had better be able to beat a fat old guy like me that works 60 hrs a week.
I feel better now.
Pot...meet kettle.
Besides, how is that the same? Giving your opinion on a product (Negative or Positive) Is not the same as showing up to a trail with your $8000 wonderbike and acting like a doucher.
Nevermind the work we put in keeping the scammers out. I caught an account last week that linked to six other accounts, all scam for-sale ads and fortunetly it was before they took anyone's money. People can whine and hate me for being shall we say BLUNT, but that's because I don't fear calling out people on their kindergarden league bs in the news story comments, but i've also got the experience needed to catch the big league stuff that goes on elsewhere on the site.
Shimano XT — $6,995 MSRP
Shimano XTR —$8,995 MSRP
Frameset — $3,495 MSRP
HA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAHA
boingboing.net/2006/04/10/patent-for-fartpower.html
Also, the front triangle doesn't look half bad until you see that home depot 35 cent nut holding the lower shock bolt in place.
I'll go buy 4 other bikes that I'll actually use. Thanksverymuch.
www.pinkbike.com/photo/10105303
"I was just riding along..."
and then cased the landing.
deeeight - you insinuated I didn't have a job before. Is Moderator your job? I assume so, since if you were at a real job, it wouldn't go over so well that you spend all of your time replying to comments.
If you got rid of the commenting, no one would look at any of the 29er posts on this site.
My take, awesome bikes. Love the 27.5 wheel size and responsive handling. Definitely faster downhill and in the rough stuff vs. my Titanium 29er hardtail which I have over 20,000 miles on.
Looks? I think they look awesome and we get lots of compliments on them, but hey we don't hang out at skate parks or chair lift operated bike spots!
Would I pay $6000 each for them? No but then again I wouldn't pay that much for any bike.
I am cross country oriented and I am more interested in a bike that has XC race type handling. The suspension gives a magic carpet ride and the bikes are so much fun.
I thought about the new geo bikes but don't like slack head angles and super low bottom brackets. As it is I get pedal strikes on my Absolute Truth, where as on my wife's Epiphany she doesn't get them due to a higher BB.
If I were more downhill oriented I would certainly look at test riding the new geo bikes but I think I would be unhappy with them.
I think other bikes look wonky but hey that is just me.
Suspension system works great so why change it just for change sake?
Ellsworth has updated everything but looks and GEO all still stuck in the 90s and totally agree, 70+ year old Porsche or Ferrari owners will love these bikes!
The Solo, which has similar travel and 27.5 wheels has 68° HA...1.5° slacker.
When that colossal P.O.S. snaps in a month you better have "2 JOBS" to buy something else.
Hahaha!
WTF?!?!
I even clicked the link provided for more info...
3,500 for the frame ?
Are you CRAZY ??????
It's a business model that's based on the concept that customers will (eventually) pay the same price as they would've payed for the competition's products but feel like they payed less for a "higher value" product (when in fact it's not).
something to understand about tooling up for a proprietary design in Taiwan or China, is that you manufacture a mould tool for each frame size or design you intend to manufacture. This is not cheap to produce.
the exception is smaller companies using "open mould" frames which are not proprietary, but a generic product the bike manufacturing company offers to anyone who wants a carbon fibre frame. Small detail changes are possible, but generally limited to bolt-on dropouts, cable guides, head badges and graphics (decals).
Structural change is limited to the specification of the carbon/resin and layup schedule but the outward physical appearance cannot change because of the open mould itself.
A good example is "Vitus", an legendary road brand purchased by behemoth "Chain Reaction Cycles". Their 'Sean Kelly' signature model is using an open-mould frame because its just too expensive to produce their own moulds. They have commented that if this is successful, in several years they will product their own tools.
Currently they have a consumer model made using lower modulus CF(comfort) , and a pro model for their sponsored riders using a higher modulus CF (stiffness), but using the same open mould tool.
the labour in Taiwan and China is not as cheap as you imagine, for example the Class A1 factories in China received a Government approved 19% pay increase in January 2013. An experienced welder in Taiwan working on bike frames can easily earn US $25,000, and their cost of living is considerably more affordable
the reason bike company have their manufacturing done in TW and China is because the skilled workers are there in high-tech factories which have the capabilities to undertake this work. TW and Chinese made (quality, not knock-offs) frames are not actually that cheap to produce.
Domestic manufacturers like Devinci, Santa Cruz and Ellsworth were forced off-shore to TW for carbon fibre because it cannot be done on a commercial scale on-shore.
thanks for your input into the conversation. the World is changing and many of us with a Western focus find it hard to understand the shift to Asia in terms of high-tech manufacturing skill sets and wage potentials
skilled welders and CF technicians in TW and China make good money, because its a skilled trade with plenty of customers willing to pay for the skill set of these workers.
something to understand about carbon fibre is that there are only 3 factories in the world supplying the raw material, these factories include Toray and Mitsubishi (both Japanese)
the price of the raw CF does not really change depending on the supplier because each spec. is made to the same quality; and the quality TW / Chinese factories all use the same material in their CF layups.
The price of CF changes according to Global demand from aerospace / military with sports equipment coming somewhat down the list...the raw material is in short supply as more industries switch to it, which drives price up. As an example, a bicycle brand I work with used to charge US $600 for a "cost" frame, its now US $1000 within 2 years.
There is not someone "cheaper" to buy this raw material from unless it has been damaged by mis-handling and written off, or sold as off-cuts pieces (then re-sold), which is what happens too many times with the "fake" frames you see cheaper on Ebay and Alibaba Express
the price difference on the good quality (undamaged) raw materials depends on the quality / specification of the material, these 3 factories produce different levels of CF, but none are "cheap" and its a time consuming process to do a good layup
the "rule of thumb" for CF frame production is once you go over approx. 500 units / frame size, it becomes more affordable than welding aluminium alloy tubular frameset