The all new coil shock from DVO Suspension is coming shortly! Talk a walk through all the badass features this shock has to offer straight from the engineer. The Jade has been in development for almost a year now and is about ready for production. This shock has been born on the world cup circuit and is ready to race!
he's just like,.......yer i designed a shock that looks so badass and works way better than anything else out their.....................i don't even care, i was half asleep too
at least I didn't mumble... haha! They had to corner me to get me in front of the camera.
Believe me, I'm insanely excited about this shock and everything else where creating. Dream Job!
Not much "inside" going on there, most of it was just what we already know. But If I was a shock manufacture id be pretty bloody secretive with what I'm about to put into the market.
Id be curious to know the numbers and percentages the fins offer with the heat sinking.
Bike consumers have been trained to shop by weight. All things equal - mfg try to save weight by reducing the amount of oil in their shockproducts to make them look good on paper or kick the oil for air altogether. More oil and bigger oilwetted surface help a lot to transfer and dissipate heat. More so if you use ribs exposed to airstream. My DHX3 would work properly for 1-2 Mins. After that turned into a virtually undamped spring. My latest DHX would last maybe 4 Mins. Keeping a shock linear for extended periods of time - like 10 Mins. would be great. A damper with an large secondary external reservoir might be the answer. 30-60ml of extra oil might go a long way.
wakaba Id find it hard to believe people choosing a shock based on weight over performance, its partly why we haven't seen air shocks make a big mark on the downhill world cup even thought they manage to shave big weigh off. Its only in recent years when the performance is coming on par with coil that air has been used for the rear shock. Even for the forks air has not been a big player until recent years as more manufactures are able to design a fork that performs as well if not better than the coil. With disciplines like xc where the demands of the shock are not as extreme they are able to get onto the air much earlier.
No doubt there are people who are way too focused on weight and for them it will matter but I find it hard to believe manufactures will aim to lower performance with less oil or air so they look good on paper if it sacrifices performance. If that was the case we would have seen DVO ditch the arch support for the fork.
Less weight means less oil. This is the only place they can shave weight for free. Ti spring, magnesium casts increase cost. Dealers like airdampers because they do not have to stock different springs.
Fox and RS run very little oil in their forks. DVO has quite a lot. Weight difference 1lb. All things equal DVO will run smoother, longer and more predictable during a hot run. DVO has inverted forks, gravity fed drip oiling in a low speed app like a fork is an old and proven way to keep things rolling and moving contaminants away from the bearing surface. Steamlocomotives last forever...
Yeah but what I was getting at was I don't think fox or RS would sacrafice performance for oil weight. They would design the fork to run with the lower oil levels. They are focused on inproving the peroemance noone will sacrafice that for a few hundred grams.
No doubt more oil will produce a great fork feel but how much better will it be on the clock than the others on the market? DVO are entering a strong field with fox and bos. No doubt they will be competitive but with the added weight and the price tag they better make sure they offer the same improvement on the track to justify it.
They did. Performance and durability have been compromised by those two brands. Fox stuff is finicky, RS small bump compliance sucks. Manitou and DVO seem to have an edge on both. Fox, BOS, CC and RS products look definitely old at the moment compared to MRP, DVO and Manitou. I am glad I chucked my Boxxer. The DVO plays in a different league, only got 4h on it - smoother and faster.
want to buy me a set then? haha. Im still running a boxxer I have to agree small bump is pretty bad, im waiting to do a shim stack adjustment and put on some low friction seals which should make it much better.
Id find the cost hard to justify, even if they are a better fork the the world cup riders are fast on the current crop so the current forks wont be holding me back anytime soon and given I can get a set of the new 40floats for about $1800 here its hard to justify the big price tag when in reality the float will be more than enough. Id like to see some times, ultimately the fork ill choose will come down to the clock not feel.
Are you doing a solid review and any back to back testing wakaba? id be very interested in seeing some real world numbers and personal reviews.
Got about 4h on the Emerald. Good stiffness. None of the rattly Boxxer feel. The fork, at 60psi, really soaks up small bumps. Seals are well protected and upside down. So less water, mud and dust messing with the bearingsurface. The stanchions hardly get muddy. Knobs are painful to turn. None of that stictious feeling. Axle and hub are tight fit. Brakes are easy to mount and adjust. Biggest difference to a Boxxer is how active the fork stays in corners. Feels faster and more comfortable. So yes, regular forks suddenly look very oldfashioned, upside down is way to go and DVO, Manitou, MRP(White brothers) deliver more choice than RS/Fox. Only thing to improve on DVO - they should offer one with 250mm travel.
with 250mm travel................O_o eerrrr don't think so that would need a complete re design and only about 3 people would ever buy it for huck bikes
Thanks wakaba! We are really stoked to hear your feedback and glad you like the Emerald! Let us know if you need any tuning tips and love to hear the feedback! Cheers, DVO
Smart move offering it in the super popular 8.5x2.5 size as well. The green will match perfectly with the new Norco RangeC LE green. Now to make a 160mm AM/EnduroBro fork!!!
Thanks! Not only will the green match your Norco it will make it come to life! We have a couple Norco's in the shop as test bikes and they have become some of our favorite bikes after the Jade was installed (honest & un-biased)! Cheers, DVO
p-dub-4: we have done a lot of testing on the Wilson with the Jade and we have a tune that really works awesome for that linkage and spring curve! We would be happy to get it all dialed in for ya if you choose to run a Jade. Cheers, DVO
I have a good idea, you make that happen, coupled with the Jade, I live close enough, you use my carbon Range LE, www.pinkbike.com/photo/10116917 as the mule for pics & demo vids and you sell tons! Deal?
DVO Products can be ordered directly from DVO USA in California by dealers. We already have quite a few shops signed up so hit your local shop up, if they aren't already dealing with us they can call and get we will get the ball rolling! Cheers, DVO
yes this company will be a game changer!!!! my buddy just picked up the fork, holy shit, it is AMAZING, so plush an stiff, makes me want one superbad haha, DVO fo sho!!!!
We have been talking to some guys to represent DVO in Canada, the products are available dealer direct from DVO USA and we will have quite a few shops signed up by the time summer roles around. Plus, we will be in Whistler full force this summer and Fanatico has already signed up as our key shop in the village. Cheers, DVO!
Definitely on the trail/enduro side of things and later on maybe xc. We want to focus on longer travel suspension (140+) since that's what our speciality is! Cheers, DVO
Make a video showing the same rider on the same bike on the same trail, but switch the shocks & forks between yours & a few of the other big names. Dial in their forks according to their mfr recommendations & show us what we're missing it on. Keep it unbiased, but show us what makes your suspension better.
I think there are a lot of us riding Fox & Marzocchi suspension that are receptive to your shocks/forks but aren't going to invest in such an expensive fork just because it comes in a trendy new color & makes teenage boys' panties wet. All these posts about how pretty their bikes will be with your forks doesn't impress me at all. Having an extra $2000 in my bank account for a bike vacation is much more appealing to me than making my bike look trendy.
I've been riding long enough to see more trendy looking high end shocks & forks come & go than I can recall.
I'm not saying this to slight your product. Believe me, I wouldn't waste my time writing all this if I wasn't sincerely interested in keeping me & my bike riding at our best. But this is a very high end investment, and it will take a lot more than a shiny new color and some tech talk to get me off my current suspension.
Does anyone else want to see a real head to head suspension shoot out?
Hey SkidmarkJohnny, thanks for taking the time to offer your suggestion! We have also thought of doing the same in regards to trail and bench testing and we wanted to give everyone a clear idea of what we are up to and our different approach to suspension design. Maybe down the road we can approach a "head-to-head" test that's unbiased and clear cut. Thus far, everyone that has purchased the Emerald is extremely happy with the purchase and for us, when our customers are happy, we are happy! Cheers, DVO.
Can you imagine the media and marketing fuss it would cause for a suspension company to design, run, and then publish the results of an "unbiased" shootout between itself and its competitors? Not even (partially) independent third-parties like Pinkbike do shootouts. Your tests are never thorough enough to stand up to serious (scientific) scrutiny, and your results, to the extent anyone even sees the shootout as anything more than a marketing stunt, are swallowed whole by people who already believed the outcome, or are rejected outright be those who didn't already believe it. You potentially poison business relationships in a pretty small industry and accomplish little good. Plus, what is DVO's marketing budget compared to Fox Racing Shox? Let sleeping dogs lie! Under the guise of getting real information out to the consumer, you would really just be amping up a contest between hype machines--because the numbers in their appropriate context that come out of a suspension test lab are simply not interesting to the vast majority of consumers. It would be a contest of who's marketing dudes packaged them best, who picked the raddest 3 minutes of ride footage to edit in between fake graphs, who chose the background music.
If your curiosity is about something that can only be looked at subjectively, then that's how you have to go about it. Rent two bikes. Ride one trail. Pick your favorite. My 2c
A concrete example for anyone interested in the interplay between science and marketing: It would be feasible to get oil temperature data from a pair of shocks being run through the same 'program' of cycles on a pair of test rigs in the same room. Ambient temperature, airflow, humidity, etc could be tweaked, but conditions would be controlled across Shock A and Shock B. Then the manufacturers of Shock A throw the data into a nice histogram with catchy colors and get it bumped onto Pinkbike's main page: Look, Shock A runs cooler than Shock B. And in the text there would be some engineering-ish 'rule' that bikers are supposed to know and repeat and impress their friends with like "damping performance is temperature sensitive, and so the shock that rund coller had better damping." All the readers are then expected to add 1 + 1 and conclude that Shock A is better.
The problem (for a scientist) with this scenario is that the context was stripped, and therefore the data are incomplete at best and junk at worst.
First question a scientist asks: are the numbers really different? Sure, 33.4C and 33.6C are different numbers, but do those two numbers reflect true differences? That is a matter for statistics. Sometimes 33.4 and 33.6 are not different!
Second question: if there is a statistical difference in some data (temperatures for example), is there a consequential difference in some other phenomena? A 'statistically significant' difference in temperature does not necessarily mean a 'significant' difference in a related value, like damping performance. Biologists (my field) call this 'biological significance' and I bet engineers have a different term for the same idea. One can imagine a very thorough test that repeatably shows a 0.2C difference between Shocks A and B, but it may be (due to the nature of the particluar engineering context) that only differences of 0.5C or greater result in noticeable performance change.
Do you see why this stuff is totally inappropriate for a business' media/marketing communication? So many places the consumer, the reviwer, the blogger, the marketing dude could be confused. But if you don't say all this stuff, then your 'unbiased' test is a fraud! There are no half measures. You're either doing science or you are not. I prefer companies that don't try to wow the public with fake tech. Just put out a good product and let it speak for you. I think that's just what DVO is trying to do. Good luck!
This has been a lecture by snfoilhat of Berkeley, CA. Thank you and good night.
Nice work Snfoilhat and I note that the DVO suspension typists haven't come up with any catchy marketing riffs to comment on your very educational and pointed rebuff to internet sensationalism/marketing. To quote the DVO guys-keep up the good work!
Thanks for the detailed and very informative information Snfoihat! We could do a very straight forward unbiased (in our eyes) testing on oil temperature and how it relates to damping fade between compression and rebound. But how much will that buys us in the consumers eyes? Its hard to say, so we are sticking to making great products and let everyone feel the difference in superior performance and excellent customer service. We will let the product and the company speak for themselves! Cheers, DVO
Now I'm not a bad guy. But, if I see you out runnin a set of emeralds up front and a jade at the back, it's quite likely ill try and make love to your bike. Then rob you. Then kill you. Sorry...
Love the DVO guys, buts its funny to listen to people talk like this has never been done before. Avalanche has had a bladder shock on the market for years that's built to order and custom tuned for your bike, it uses a HUGE reservoir and tons of oil so heating isn't an issue therefor no need for cooling fins, and your probably gonna be in the same price range. Not to mention while the easily removable shim stack would be cool if people knew what they were doing, the truth is THEY DONT! %75 of guys cant even get their spring rates right, the last thing they need to do is try and valve it, you just made a shock that's really easy for idiots to f*ck up.
Avalanche has the right idea, but their tuning is just flat out wrong. You talk about people not knowing what they're doing, but Avalanche themselves aren't the best, to put it gently. I'm sorry, but when you pay that much for a shock, and then you have to drastically revalve it yourself to get it to feel decent on anything, that's a bit disappointing. Their fork cartridges are "ok", but their shock tuning is just bad.
To give them credit, you're right, they have a very sound concept, bladder, dual stage shimstacks and good piston porting, easy rebuild, very durable, top out and bottom out control, etc. But you really have to fine tune and perfect a product if you want it to get anywhere.
Thanks buddy! And yes, this in some degree has all been attempted before, especially with Avalanche and they make some great products! But we did go the extra mile in designing a system where the bottom loader on an Emerald has zero oil loss tuning capability and the Jade is almost as easy to work on. Cheers, DVO!
Six dollars. You are the first person I have heard that had anything bad to say about Avy. I am thinking about sending my Elka stage five to them for a custom tune. Would you suggest against it. If so why exactly.. And as far as the DVO suspension goes.. It all looks promising but it's too much money for the emerald and jade to try an untested product. I'll wait for a year and see how these items perform in the hands of the typical weekend warriors before I spend that kind of cash on something.
Hey Beer,
I have not worked with Avy for about 3 years now, but back then I worked with the guy that did all their tuning and shimstacks. We simply had very different views on how things should be done, and I got a lot of attitude about how he knows best. In the end I got a shock that was way overdamped for my weight, and had to reshim it drastically. Just my personal experience with them.
I don't know what services Elka themselves do, but they're a good company and they know their shock very well. If anything I'd try to contact them and see how they can help you out. Good luck!
Sixkdollars..thanks for the info. My first thought was to go directly to elka but they no longer have a MTB division. They sold all of their spare parts to mrp.
I'm not who the little douche with the piss-poor attitude that's neg prop'ing every comment/response is, but why don't you go play out in the street with your scooter because whether you like the product or not DVO is at least decent enough to respond to basically every question/comment posted. Some of us appreciate that especially when, more or less, no other manufacturer does this.
Thanks h82crash, customer service means a lot to us. Our entire company has been built from the perspective of a rider and we understand the complaints/concerns people have with poor service and poor functioning equipment. We feel our job has been done when the customer is out riding their bikes and getting what they pay for. We want to make products that allow that, not something that spends more time in the mail than on their bikes.
About 8 months ago, a friend of a friend who works in the bike industry said "DVO will never make it to market". I had a little laugh to myself as I knew 5 guys wouldn't put their livelihoods on the line like this without reaching their goal. So stoked to see the reality is looking even more badass than the dream. Well done DVO. Awesome to see another player in the market. Can't wait to ride your stuff.
Tom's honesty is super refreshing. Lots of companies act as though their ideas (and I mean every single idea they have or minor tweak they make between models) is equally as profound as the wheel. By acknowledged that "air fins" are seen in sports, such as; car racing, and that it simply makes sense to bring that technology into mountain biking is really honest. Tom's won me over - Tom for Prime Minister!
Thanks and thats exactly what our company modo is, lets not try to reinvent the wheel, lets make great products and stay away from making any outlandish BS marketing statements!
Sweet footage of the front and rear suspension getting a beating! DVO actualy cares that I don't have major down time servicing my fork and shock. They understand that keeping the oil cool is important to the consistent feel of a rear shock.
DVO ROCKS!
Thanks Sshredder! We are trying our best to make our products easy to service cause down time is one of the biggest gripes, especially during a short riding season. Cheers, DVO!
Cool vid DVO. Heat buildup is definitely a big issue, glad you guys are addressing it. Out of curiosity where is the riding shot? Socal for sure, Simi Valley maybe? Seems very familiar, just can't put my finger on it.
Thanks buddy! Heat build up is a real issue with most shocks and heat equals fade! We do a lot of testing on Stage Coach cause the impacts are quite violent (especially at speed)! Cheers, DVO
Its a great trail for testing bottom out and high speed compression, between compression and the pressure on the bladder, we control bottom out really well. Its based on a lot of math and seat of the pants testing in relation to volume, displacement, and speed. The bladder pressure can be adjusted between 160 PSI up to 200 which does aid in bottom out control. Cheers, DVO!
So the main difference from other shocks here is that they will be (mostly?) serviceable by users at home without special tools? Anything else that will make it preferable over other shocks? What about tuning options, how tune-able will it be? Both on the trail at and home (i.e. while servicing it).
There's quite a few differences between the Jade and many of the other shocks out there. We aimed at making a cooling running shock because heat fade is such a serious issue, then we wanted it to be serviceable so a lot of you can get comfortable with opening up a shock and getting it back together without the need for master's degree in Engineering. Then when it comes to tuning, this is where the Jade really shines, we will provide some base tunes and we encourage our customers to spend time dialing in the compression settings right at the shim/piston to get that perfect feel. With so many different bike designs, leverage curves, riding conditions, and rider skill levels you now can have the ability to either turn some knobs or really get into becoming a suspension tuner! Cheers, DVO
Coming from a motorcycle (road racing) background, it's good to hear a company making parts for bikes say these things.
People knew as far back as the late 80's that extra oil resevoirs (which he is referring to as a bladder correct?) had a positive effect on the stability of the oil over the course of an event. Eddie Lawson used to turn his rebound and compression settings a little higher then his ideal knowing that as the race progressed and the oil heated up, his bike would begin to handle better.
Good job DVO. Send one out to the East Coast so I can do some testing for you and show up at races with it. ;-)
Thanks buddy! We are old moto heads and we know that there are proven designs out there so no use reinventing the wheel, just refining it! Hope to have ya on the product soon!
Looks good DVO! As I as said many times before, It makes me happy to say it again: all the best of luck! I hope you succeed and we have yet another taste on the market for good. Your designs look original right away, and hell, if you want to do a righty fork, then I'll be happy to see you guys making it! I hope one day you will make a trail shock and fork and I will be able to consider it as an option. I feel your devotion to what you do, that is very important. You have DVOtion hehe Right now Fox seems to be a very weakened player, CTD got them pay heavily, most bikes in the "bike of the year" tests in various places are specced with Pikes. I haven't seen a picture of a 34 since a long time. Use that chance
Seems like DVO is onto a winner. I like the fact they'll be self serviceable; CCDB's are top notch, as is CC's customer service but I wish I could take it apart myself without voiding the warranty. I also dig the way DVO communicates with the public, approachable and down to earth.
As for Fox, let's hope they've learned their lesson as pre 2012 stuff was quite good. Not in the same league as BOS or CC but at least they were close and it was great stuff to start out with.
Nice vid on the shock - looks extremely promising! DVO, can you tell if the Jade would require some kind of internal tuning in order to make it work on an Iron Horse Sunday? Also, the air shock you are working on - would it come in DH-oriented sizes?
Hey Buddy, the Jade would work really well on the Sunday and basically with the design of the shock we can pretty much tune it to meet any linkage/leverage curves out there. As far as an air shock for DH, we are focused on DH coil and Enduro forks and shocks but it is a possibility! Cheers, DVO
Wow, just the fact that DVO answers all these posts is just awesome. Seems like a company who got the connections to the costumers right!! Shock seems awesome along with the fork.
I admire DVO but it's like the suspension company that never was.... I've seen a few articles but has anyone actually seen one on a bike yet ? If I buy a new bike I guarantee it'll have either fox or rockshox suspension bundled with it..... I don't want to see just 2 companies ruling the suspension world, get a move on DVO !!!
Thanks fedz! We are real and making it happen though! Check out our Face Book pics, we have posted everyones pics from all over the world who have them mounted on a bike and riding. To date we have shipped out hundreds of forks and we have hundreds more in production. From the OEM side, we are talking to everyone but since our production is limited we won't bite off more than we can chew. Cheers, DVO
DVOSuspension….I am seriously impressed with your attention to detail and innovation! I will honestly consider your equipment when it comes time.. I might have to sell myself, but it sounds like it would be worth it!
So, larger shaft, larger seals, more drag. Great. I'm assuming Ohlins did their FEA on the CCDB shaft so I'm not concerned about it being too thin. They know the max compression damping their valving can offer and I'm sure they have good data for max rider hits, its a trivial issue to work out the max load on the shaft and spec it accordingly.
FEA wouldn't really give you details on seal drag, FEA is more for material analysis. Its not a trivial issue to work out max load on the shaft and spec it accordingly, there are many different frame designs out there and if a shock becomes a structural member then shafts will end up breaking. Experience makes up for a lot! Cheers, DVO
Please, read what I said again, I was clearly referring to shaft strength with the FEA comment, not seal drag. But I assume the lack of rebuttal regarding your main shift seal drag is admission of it being higher.
Oh yea, you're right! Reading it from an iPhone isn't ideal. But to clarify the point, its not always easy to correctly estimate what the max shaft loads can, there are just too many moving variables. On a larger shaft, there is slightly more seal drag based on increased surface volume but we have removed other high friction areas internally that ultimately make the Jade very sensitive to small forces and quick direction changes between compression and rebound. Cheers, DVO
Any chance the Emerald will be released in a black version>? I am still on my 2007 888rc2x and its a great fork, but dated and I want something new, just not stoked on the green.
my options are this fox 40... been there, constant serviceing pain in the ass... no thanks ( feels great though ) boxer... hate this company, bad experiences with crappy products.. never again marzocchi... hey wait, You guys are the only good thing about marzocchi... I want a emerald
Thanks dmadness! Yes we have a Black Emerald, check out the pics of it on our web site or Face Book. Plus theres a lot of product already out there and riders have sent in a bunch of pics. About you last comment...100% agree and thanks for the props!
In the moment I have a Vector HLR Air for Enduro (Hey, what´s Enduro?) or better said serious AM ;-) which momentarily is, so I feel, the best compromise weightwise and performancewise in relation to a coil shock, to get the light do it all bike running on the DH. But I´ll definfitely get your shock if it just comes clearly under the vectors weight or overpowers it. I´m really looking forward for a shooutout (BOS KIRK is no option as it is next to the Void the most expensive Air shock and except weight I doubt it is worth this of the rest of the competition). And it certainly will be interesting comparing the Mattoc Pro with the Diamond as both use most parts of the technology of their big and very good DH brothers. Can you already give a rough range of the price for the diamond, please? circa 800-1000? More or less? And the shock?
The Diamond will be less than a grand and the price of the Jade will be released within the week and it will be around the price of the CCDB. Cheers, DVO
Looks awesome if only the ccdb didnt work so well in my norco aurum i'd go for the jade...but never chane a running system. Wanted a ccdb air cs for my green range... Maybe i wait a bit for the dvo air... I' d love to try it...also my fox fork in the range has to go this year...i wait for your endurofork maybE. Cheers dvo and keep it up..sounds and looks good!
Dvo, love your shim stack technical page, that's great for explaining how as a rider I can tune the shock in ways that simply dialing in more of less compression sampling don't allow. Any chance you could educate us similarly on the rebound adjustability of your products, I'd love to get the full picture.
hi, i am thinking to move to a Jade shox too...i had for 2 days a test one...it is super plush, very sensitive but i had an issue (maybe it was specific of that shox): LowCompressionRegister works badly...i mean in the position "full open" (it was OK) but in the "full closed" one to make it firmer during the pedaling session it looked like to be no difference between the 2 settings (the same for all the othersthe partial positions)...i am wondering if it was a problem regaring the Jade they give to me...ciao
@DVOSuspension I see the service guide for the Jade is still "coming soon" on your website... so the question is "How soon"? My Jade makes some rebound noise (squishing noise, quite loud), is it to be considered normal or does it need a service? I'm looking to service it by myself but some king of tutorial would be nice to have
What are you planning for your enduro shock as adjustments? not overkill adjustments as CCDBA cs,more like the Kirk would be great, but with your Performance and support ;-) Please tell
Enduro shock is on its way! Really easy to adjust and tune just like the Jade is will offer some great performance features that are needed by today's pro enduro racers!
Been riding the Emerald for a couple of hours. Smooth on small bumps and roots. Suspension action in corners feels good. Painless to dial in. Great plowfork.
I'd be down for a coil with lockout. The CTD settings are crap of the Float and I'm either slogging uphill or charging downhill, there is no 'trail'...
DVO, is there any possibility of other colour options? It looks great in green, but some of us are a bit vain and green doesn't fit with every bike (especially not my blue one!).
To what degree are these shocks going to be serviceable by the consumer? Will it just be bleeding or is there going to be more to it to keep them riding?
The Jade can be easily serviced from a complete tear down or just a simple oil change. The easiest part of the Jade is accessing the compression loader so you can tune the shim stack without having to send it to a pro shop or back to the factory if you're looking for a special set up. Since there is such a limited quantity of oil having to do so much work, changing the oil on a regular basis will keep your shock in optimum condition for years to come. If you need to get into the seal housing for a seal change, its also easy without the need for any special thousand dollar tool! Cheers, DVO!
So my understanding is that this shock doesn't need to be vaccum bleed/presurized . Making it servicable by DIYers. That is great! I always have this fear that a guy at service would swap his worn internal with your new ones.
Its pretty cool seeing that such a big up and coming suspension company is based like 5 miles from me in Valencia! Some of the best trails only 30 min away!
I have a KHS DH 300 and was wondering if you guys were planning on making a base tunes or anything? Seems like a long shot, but possibly I could help with that?
All this talk about servicing these shocks & forks....are these things going to be needing a lot of service? If so, I'm out.
I have two bikes with Fox 40's and one with a 36, I can do all the service I want to do on them aside from the cartridge.
My oldest 40 is a 2009 & I've never had to do any cartridge work on any of them.
I'm not saying the DVO's are bad, but come on, everyone seems to be going on & on about how easy it will be to work on these things. If you want me to lay down 2 large in a fork to replace my perfectly functioning Fox 40, it better not need a lot of service attention.
The Emerald and Jade will be very reliable products, the Emerald has nearly 400cc's of oil in it which greatly increases durability and performance over the long run. When you want to change the oil or work on tuning the shim stack, it will be real easy and no need to send it out and pay extra service fees. The same goes for the Jade rear shock, it will be easy to tune and work on when desired. If you're not keen on getting into the inner workings of DVO Suspension, no worries, just ride!
Dvo should sponcor ur Hutchinson the emerald and jade suspension would look way sweeter than plain old bos suspension and dvo would get the publecity they derserve
I wonder how they're dealing with the off-gassing of the bladder. Typically the oil cavitates much faster on a bladder design when compared to a solid IFP.
We have all that figured out! For starters there is more surface area on the bladder to pressurize the oil than does an IFP. Second, it has to do with how fast oil can flow behind the piston without generating cavitation and thats in the design! Good question though.
That's ok, no worries here! Motocross shock have used bladders for years and the shock shaft speeds are much higher than what we see on a mountain bike.
Thats an easy question to answer, Very carefully and strategically! We have plenty of space in our factory and we look forward to filling it up! Cheers, DVO
Its round. Manitou has a patent on hexagonal shape for an axle. We have increased the surface area of our drop outs and axle interface so the grip is excellent.
Yes,I know this.but My question was referring to a similar shape.perhaps round but 8 teeth to prevent from turning. But it'answered now ;-) really looking forward to DVO's shiny Diamond!
Actually Manitou has a patent that basically covers any shape that isn't round, kudos to them for the patent. To give you some insight though about axle shapes and its relation to slipping within the drop outs, we have found through testing that in order for the drop outs to actually slip or rotate within the drop outs, the fork will have to flex to a degree that you wouldn't experience when riding. Therefore, the main concern is axle stiffness in relation to the drop outs, we have very large forged magnesium drop outs which increase the surface clamping area on the axle. Between that and the CTA, torsional stiffness is excellent. Hope this helps, DVO
Shocks are quite easy to develop when compared to suspension forks, we actually have a lot of shock designs in the works right now and will be releasing more soon!
Thanks buddy! We just want to make some great products and keep in touch with our customers. We don't want to be the biggest, just one of the best! Cheers, DVO
you have no idea what your missing here, but if you like riding with a tool just to adjust your shock trail side and like the limited ability to tune the compression on the shock and with the flimsy flexy looking shaft by all means keep the CCDB.
Thx finalgear! There is a lot of great products out there, we are just trying to offer more performance with easier tuning and servicing. Not trying to reinvent the wheel, just fine tune it and support our customers along the way. Cheers, DVO
the ccdb doesnt work on displacement of oil meaning they can run a much smaller shaft massively reducing sticktion, and because they use different valves and work on much greater oil flow then any other mtb shock, it makes it the most effective damper available. because of the inherent design disadvantages of using a de-carbon type (jade, rc4, vivid, mx rc2 and every other shock out there atm) the ccdb will always be on top.
the ccdb is essentially a ohlins. (you will find ohlins logo on the side of ccdb) and as ohlins are widely regarded as the best mx suspension available due to the patent for the double barrel technology.
and beacuse of the valves used and the way it circulates the whole volume of oil for damping it means that it can be fully tuned for any rider and bike without disassembly and a slight bit of guess work. (all shim stacks have an element of guess work, computer programs can only do so much, 'trial and error' means guesses and fails till its right) so on the trail tuning for any rider is possible, i can appreciate the intentions however not the best way to go around it, but you are limited by patents.
i will admit the lack of ease of home rebuilds is annoying but not enough to stop me choosing ccdb every time. i have got friends who have converted their ccdb's to schrader valves to do home rebuilds, mine may well be following suit.
CCDB works by displacing 100% of the oil from one area/chamber into another. It doesn't work off shaft displacement so the size of the shaft diameter is not a determining factor in damping per se but more with strength and durability.
precisely and that is why the ccdb is a better shock. beacuse it works on much much larger volume of oil for damping (instead of just displaced oil) the required damping force is less, meaning less heat built up during damping, also heating a greater volume of oil takes longer, thus meaning less heat being added to a greater volume of oil meaning greatly reduced heat fade. then back for the fact it works on more oil it means even if same temperature change is achieved (impossible within equal riding/time frame) the ccdb will still dampen much closer to when cool. so more predictable as changes in damping from ccdb are almost negligible in real world, where as de-carbon type shocks head fade is a real problem when ridden properly.
as for durability. smaller seals of the ccdb mean easier sealing and longer lasting, including reduced breaking force (force required to get the shock shaft moving) that and by using a steel shock shaft there is no worry about strength. (with exclusion of specialized, they made yet another catastrophic error in the pursuit of bludgeoning what could have been an effective platform). so reduced breaking force, more effective sealing, damper design making the breaking force of the damper (with shaft force removed) greatly less compared to a very heavy shim stack set up (as required to achieve enough damping force on a very little oil)
as for maintenance, having seen the oil that has come out of an original black bodied ccdb last year (when having schrader valve added) it looked near enough new. despite the years upon the uk race circuit.
however i have got some ideas of how to develop a shock that does no use either twin tube damping or displacement damping. but rather not share so publicly.
There are many ways to build a better mouse trap! But one variable you need to address when state that CCDB is the best because of the large volume of oil displacement is the damping aspect. If you push a large volume of oil through at varying speeds through a small valve/damping mechanism you risk overpowering the damping system and loosing consistent feel in various terrain. Also, such a system is difficult to tune and achieve balance to the front end. Its very important to have the appropriate amount of displacement in relation to the damping system. We have done a lot of calculations on volume and displacement with all the manufacturers shocks and we are right in there when it comes to delivering a balanced system between damping and oil displacement.
yes arguably the ccdb is harder to tune and setup with the front end. however changing shim stacks on suspension is vastly more complicated to get right..
im not saying the ccdb is perfect. just that upon balance still presents the better shock. the things i'd like to see done with the ccdb is bladder instead of IFP (which the jade does have) as well as easy home rebuilding (again jade has over ccdb) and tool-less external adjustments. (jade also has over ccdb) but due to damping arrangement on ccdb you do indeed need the leverage over the dials to get them to turn (they are not excessive just too stiff to do by finger)
so that's a bit of unbiased balance for you.
compared to rest of of market, so long as it doesn't blow up every 5mins then will be better then vivid. fox rc4 is your main competition. for which the jade certainly stands in good stead to be capable to beating. (although bear in mind the marzocchi moto rc2 is yet to show its true colours!)
@bxxer-rider: The cool thing about the Jade is that we will provide different tunes (shim stack layouts) that you can start with then as you become more comfortable with tuning you can always experiment with your own settings. Its quite easy and actually really cool to get into your own shock and dial it in for a perfect ride. Now, thats something no one else wants to do (competitor wise) and we feel a lot of riders want to open up their shock and become familiar with actually tuning via shims and it isn't as hard as it seems.
The Marzocchi shock should be good, we worked on a lot it before we left to start DVO.
yes this addition of being able to easily build your own shim stacks really does interest me. as building stacks is something i need to get my head around (that is one aspect of a shock i need to work on).
i believe you guys develop the last generation of 888 in which shim its were originally supposed to be provided with to help tune them in (my 888 is an ex crc one with custom stack in it any way so matches my ccdb amazingly)
will be interested to see the differences between the marzocchi version as dvo version (one would help the dvo oud perform better as its a later version of essentially the same shock)
Id be curious to know the numbers and percentages the fins offer with the heat sinking.
No doubt more oil will produce a great fork feel but how much better will it be on the clock than the others on the market? DVO are entering a strong field with fox and bos.
No doubt they will be competitive but with the added weight and the price tag they better make sure they offer the same improvement on the track to justify it.
Im still running a boxxer I have to agree small bump is pretty bad, im waiting to do a shim stack adjustment and put on some low friction seals which should make it much better.
Id find the cost hard to justify, even if they are a better fork the the world cup riders are fast on the current crop so the current forks wont be holding me back anytime soon and given I can get a set of the new 40floats for about $1800 here its hard to justify the big price tag when in reality the float will be more than enough. Id like to see some times, ultimately the fork ill choose will come down to the clock not feel.
Are you doing a solid review and any back to back testing wakaba? id be very interested in seeing some real world numbers and personal reviews.
guys, awesome job on the shock and the fork, really impressed!
dunbarcycles.com
Make a video showing the same rider on the same bike on the same trail, but switch the shocks & forks between yours & a few of the other big names. Dial in their forks according to their mfr recommendations & show us what we're missing it on. Keep it unbiased, but show us what makes your suspension better.
I think there are a lot of us riding Fox & Marzocchi suspension that are receptive to your shocks/forks but aren't going to invest in such an expensive fork just because it comes in a trendy new color & makes teenage boys' panties wet. All these posts about how pretty their bikes will be with your forks doesn't impress me at all. Having an extra $2000 in my bank account for a bike vacation is much more appealing to me than making my bike look trendy.
I've been riding long enough to see more trendy looking high end shocks & forks come & go than I can recall.
I'm not saying this to slight your product. Believe me, I wouldn't waste my time writing all this if I wasn't sincerely interested in keeping me & my bike riding at our best. But this is a very high end investment, and it will take a lot more than a shiny new color and some tech talk to get me off my current suspension.
Does anyone else want to see a real head to head suspension shoot out?
If your curiosity is about something that can only be looked at subjectively, then that's how you have to go about it. Rent two bikes. Ride one trail. Pick your favorite. My 2c
First question a scientist asks: are the numbers really different? Sure, 33.4C and 33.6C are different numbers, but do those two numbers reflect true differences? That is a matter for statistics. Sometimes 33.4 and 33.6 are not different!
Second question: if there is a statistical difference in some data (temperatures for example), is there a consequential difference in some other phenomena? A 'statistically significant' difference in temperature does not necessarily mean a 'significant' difference in a related value, like damping performance. Biologists (my field) call this 'biological significance' and I bet engineers have a different term for the same idea. One can imagine a very thorough test that repeatably shows a 0.2C difference between Shocks A and B, but it may be (due to the nature of the particluar engineering context) that only differences of 0.5C or greater result in noticeable performance change.
Do you see why this stuff is totally inappropriate for a business' media/marketing communication? So many places the consumer, the reviwer, the blogger, the marketing dude could be confused. But if you don't say all this stuff, then your 'unbiased' test is a fraud! There are no half measures. You're either doing science or you are not. I prefer companies that don't try to wow the public with fake tech. Just put out a good product and let it speak for you. I think that's just what DVO is trying to do. Good luck!
This has been a lecture by snfoilhat of Berkeley, CA. Thank you and good night.
To give them credit, you're right, they have a very sound concept, bladder, dual stage shimstacks and good piston porting, easy rebuild, very durable, top out and bottom out control, etc. But you really have to fine tune and perfect a product if you want it to get anywhere.
How do you address bottom out and ramp up, seeing as your bladder is a preset volume?
You can have that line for free ty
People knew as far back as the late 80's that extra oil resevoirs (which he is referring to as a bladder correct?) had a positive effect on the stability of the oil over the course of an event. Eddie Lawson used to turn his rebound and compression settings a little higher then his ideal knowing that as the race progressed and the oil heated up, his bike would begin to handle better.
Good job DVO. Send one out to the East Coast so I can do some testing for you and show up at races with it. ;-)
Cheers! and again: good luck!
As for Fox, let's hope they've learned their lesson as pre 2012 stuff was quite good. Not in the same league as BOS or CC but at least they were close and it was great stuff to start out with.
DVO, can you tell if the Jade would require some kind of internal tuning in order to make it work on an Iron Horse Sunday?
Also, the air shock you are working on - would it come in DH-oriented sizes?
Shock seems awesome along with the fork.
my options are this
fox 40... been there, constant serviceing pain in the ass... no thanks ( feels great though )
boxer... hate this company, bad experiences with crappy products.. never again
marzocchi... hey wait, You guys are the only good thing about marzocchi... I want a emerald
But I´ll definfitely get your shock if it just comes clearly under the vectors weight or overpowers it. I´m really looking forward for a shooutout (BOS KIRK is no option as it is next to the Void the most expensive Air shock and except weight I doubt it is worth this of the rest of the competition).
And it certainly will be interesting comparing the Mattoc Pro with the Diamond as both use most parts of the technology of their big and very good DH brothers.
Can you already give a rough range of the price for the diamond, please? circa 800-1000? More or less? And the shock?
ps i run it on a Devinci Spartan.
My Jade makes some rebound noise (squishing noise, quite loud), is it to be considered normal or does it need a service? I'm looking to service it by myself but some king of tutorial would be nice to have
not overkill adjustments as CCDBA cs,more like the Kirk would be great, but with your Performance and support ;-)
Please tell
By the way, any chance you've tested the Makulu with your shock?
I have two bikes with Fox 40's and one with a 36, I can do all the service I want to do on them aside from the cartridge.
My oldest 40 is a 2009 & I've never had to do any cartridge work on any of them.
I'm not saying the DVO's are bad, but come on, everyone seems to be going on & on about how easy it will be to work on these things. If you want me to lay down 2 large in a fork to replace my perfectly functioning Fox 40, it better not need a lot of service attention.
...great feeling fork but.
Thanks for the response DVO!!!!
But it'answered now ;-)
really looking forward to DVO's shiny Diamond!
the ccdb is essentially a ohlins. (you will find ohlins logo on the side of ccdb) and as ohlins are widely regarded as the best mx suspension available due to the patent for the double barrel technology.
and beacuse of the valves used and the way it circulates the whole volume of oil for damping it means that it can be fully tuned for any rider and bike without disassembly and a slight bit of guess work. (all shim stacks have an element of guess work, computer programs can only do so much, 'trial and error' means guesses and fails till its right) so on the trail tuning for any rider is possible, i can appreciate the intentions however not the best way to go around it, but you are limited by patents.
i will admit the lack of ease of home rebuilds is annoying but not enough to stop me choosing ccdb every time. i have got friends who have converted their ccdb's to schrader valves to do home rebuilds, mine may well be following suit.
as for durability. smaller seals of the ccdb mean easier sealing and longer lasting, including reduced breaking force (force required to get the shock shaft moving) that and by using a steel shock shaft there is no worry about strength. (with exclusion of specialized, they made yet another catastrophic error in the pursuit of bludgeoning what could have been an effective platform). so reduced breaking force, more effective sealing, damper design making the breaking force of the damper (with shaft force removed) greatly less compared to a very heavy shim stack set up (as required to achieve enough damping force on a very little oil)
as for maintenance, having seen the oil that has come out of an original black bodied ccdb last year (when having schrader valve added) it looked near enough new. despite the years upon the uk race circuit.
however i have got some ideas of how to develop a shock that does no use either twin tube damping or displacement damping. but rather not share so publicly.
im not saying the ccdb is perfect. just that upon balance still presents the better shock. the things i'd like to see done with the ccdb is bladder instead of IFP (which the jade does have) as well as easy home rebuilding (again jade has over ccdb) and tool-less external adjustments. (jade also has over ccdb) but due to damping arrangement on ccdb you do indeed need the leverage over the dials to get them to turn (they are not excessive just too stiff to do by finger)
so that's a bit of unbiased balance for you.
compared to rest of of market, so long as it doesn't blow up every 5mins then will be better then vivid. fox rc4 is your main competition. for which the jade certainly stands in good stead to be capable to beating. (although bear in mind the marzocchi moto rc2 is yet to show its true colours!)
The Marzocchi shock should be good, we worked on a lot it before we left to start DVO.
i believe you guys develop the last generation of 888 in which shim its were originally supposed to be provided with to help tune them in (my 888 is an ex crc one with custom stack in it any way so matches my ccdb amazingly)
will be interested to see the differences between the marzocchi version as dvo version (one would help the dvo oud perform better as its a later version of essentially the same shock)