With the
Chromag Doctahawk's 62-degree head angle and 500+mm reach turning heads earlier this week, we thought it'd be prudent to round up a few more hardtails with wild geometry. You know, for those who want a front-end that's slacker than a downhill bike and a rear-end more rattly than a spray paint can.
Brace your ankles, we're going in.
Nicolai Argon GLFGerman weld artists Nicolai were apparently inspired to make this hardtail by a Brit with a penchant for progressive geometry who was after an all-weather ride. The result is a bike in the blueprint of Nicolai's more adventurous offerings but with a rigid rear end. It's big, it's slack, and there's a Pinion gearbox option for anyone who wants the full hipster hardtail package.
Key numbersTravel - 150-170mm
Reach - 475mm (size longest)
Head tube angle - 63°
Wheelbase - 1,267mm (size longest)
Price - €1,499 (frame only)
More info
Sick Bicycles WulfNotorious troll baiters Sick Bicycles have a fair few extreme bikes in their stables and have earned themselves a fearsome reputation on and off the web. The Wulf (now known as the Wulf OG) is a 4130 steel frame at a rock bottom price but on a non-cancelable, pre-order basis. This is far from their most radical frame and they actually call it a trail bike. For a more extreme version, check out the Wulf LTD that drops down to a 62° head angle.
Key numbersTravel - 150mm
Reach - 475mm (size large)
Head tube angle - 63°
Wheelbase - N/A
Price - £490 (frame only)
More info
BTR BelterBTR have been kings of this game for a long time and are still making the classic Belter hardtail that they first began testing at the start of the decade. Designed to be the ultimate downhill hardtail, there are some wild numbers on this frame but most famous of all is the incomparable 61° head angle on the 26" version, which was only slightly moderated to 61.5° when a 650b version came along.
Key numbersTravel - 150-160mm
Reach - 450mm (size large)
Head tube angle - 61°
Wheelbase - 1,242mm (size large)
Price - £1,000 (frame only)
More info
Pole TaivalYou can't have expected an extreme geometry article without Pole getting a mention, can you? The Taival is their foray into the hardcore hardtail market and, while it's certainly not the most extreme example here, this is still a wild frame. The Taival is also made to accept the shortest travel fork option here, which may explain its comparatively conservative 64.5° head angle.
Key numbersTravel - 130-150mm
Reach - 510mm (size large)
Head tube angle - 64.5°
Wheelbase - 1,295mm (size large)
Price - €700 (frame only)
More info
Pipedream MoxieThe Pipedream Moxie combines a 65.5° head angle with a humungous 510mm reach, making it the steepest bike here but also one of the longest. Ready to be built up either as a 29er or a long travel 27.5+ bike, this British, CroMo frame certainly looks the part. Pipedream had to go with custom-made tubing to get the shape they desired, and their butting profiles avoid the use of gussets. The results are clean lines and apparently super-strong joints.
Key numbersTravel - 160mm (27.5"), 140mm (29")
Reach - 510mm (size large)
Head tube angle - 65.5°
Wheelbase - 1,239-1,255mm (size large)
Price - £629 (frame only)
More info
You guys, pivots and a shock just really aren't that complicated.
Carlito no one is gonna think your soft cuz your riding a full suspension!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbPeFs7uDLM
yes it gave me a good bartering but it was proper fun.....
Wish I had one of those for urban freeride back in the day!
Sorry non-metric people.
@vudu74: 6'-5" (over 2m) and no problems rocking my NS
Yes! Key and Peele is my Jam
Most people don't understand how to ride a HT. Only how to trash talk 'em. That's the side effect, I think, of the last 20 - 25 years of people learning to ride on FS bikes. Most started with some POS FS from a big box store and ride what they ride now. Having never learned how to ride a HT or rigid (which is even better at building skills) they lack the fundamental skills. It's like riding a horse.
Riding a FS all the time is BORING as all f*ck.
www.pinkbike.com/u/shotouthoods/album/Chromag
To anybody talking about performance... it's not about that, it's about the feel. If you're not chasing the clock, you're getting what feels more fun. A bit like surfboards, you're not racing them, you ride them because of certain characteristics they have and the feel they give you.
They also have a built-in safety feature - when the saddle is dropped but still kicking you hard in the a$$, it's a warning that you're going too fast.
going dh, through the same trail, speed, the same rider on a FS will have higher margin of safety than on a HT.
really love to see HT being loved and sold over the years.
I recon it's an easy (less expensive) way to start MTB, or having a 2nd bike.
Having the possibility to choose, it's freedom!
I'm not speaking from experience because the most I've personally owned was a 100mm travel hardtail, but I would have thought 180 was too much. That said, we thought that in 1996 when Paddy put a Bomber Z1 on the front of his Diamond Back Topanga. "Oh no, you can't have a four inch fork on that! It's too much! You should have got the Z2 with 2.5" travel!"
I belive that competition is the FAST/FASTER/FASTEST Game.
That being said, and in order to open the sport (competition) to all young guns that need affordable equipment, a HT subclass or to be easier to spot on the class, state it's a HT
That will be easier to spot those faster riders, and massage some egos
Change in bb height would be even bigger on a FS
Just be thankful that the UCI never regulated competition mountain bikes (apart from the now revoked wheel size rule) or this is what we would have
Get (closer) back to the roots. Bikes have evolved so much, but I think 62° could possibly be so slack the fork will flex forward on hucks to flat.
I will say that the cornering of a hardtail is something that is hard to adjust away from. Most of the crashes on my Snabb are from me going full Wily Coyote into scrub oak from turning too fast.
Also, I do think it also matters how you ride your bike. I think my riding style is really adapted to riding a hardtail because even when riding rough terrain my ankles and legs don't mind at all but I do need my front suspension because my arms and wrists are by no means as strong as my legs and ankles. Then again I do also have a full suspension bike (140mm in the rear, 140 or 160mm in the front) but I found I just don't dare to ride it through rough and steep terrain as well as my hardtail. For straightlining rough terrain, sure no problem. Just point and go. But on the steeper descends when braking, switchbacks and all that I just can't stand that the rear suspension extends and steepens the geometry. Also when setting the rebound damping slow the ride feels "dead" but when I set it fast I really need to absorb the rebound more than the actual landing or it will buck me off. I'm sure I could learn to adapt my riding so that I could ride that bike in the same terrain as I ride my hardtail. But as it is now, I have no issues with the hardtail but I still find it scary to ride the fully when it gets technical. I mostly keep that one when friends come over and want to ride with me or just for my girlfriend.
I love riding a trail on a rigid bike with XC/CX tires one day, and with a 130/140 trail bike the next.
Makes you appreciate both (and keeps you sharp)
WTF? We replace a lot of frame bearings and bushings at our shop and, I'm sure every other shop is constantly doing this as well.
What are people needing those 170mm forks for on their hardtails? I personally can't think of any track where I need that much front travel without getting absolutely hammered in the back on a hardtail...
BTW, please don't read this as criticism, but just as being curious. If people find use with 200mm hardtails that's fine by me. You should always ride what makes you happy (in my case hardtail for XC and 160mm fully for everything else).
But yeah if you live in the high mountains and you regularly ride the loose big rocks that expose just below the summer snowline, a hardtail probably just gets exhausting real quick and I can imagine people who ride that kind of stuff regularly can't imagine themselves riding without rear suspension.
I suck
Ah and my knees still hurt from the last trip to Finale....
If this is accurate (and it might not be) then 54mm sag would be almost 3 degrees of change at the HA.
Charge bikes used to have a calculator on their website.
I think if I ever get one I'll have to change all my other bikes as well to more modern geometry, because after getting used to it everything else will feel like shit... God thing I only got a short ride on it! ;-)
I ride a steep angled rigid single speed steel bike here.
Sometimes I go outside of this flat country though....
While I understand the nature of the internet and SNSs generally, might I be so bold as to suggest being a little more respectful possibly in your interactions on PB.
One could do to your post as you did to @Heywood165 and end it for you in similar ways, thus berating your views and opinions about others.
Or one could choose to refrain from doing so.
I took that choice a year or so ago and life is much brighter as a result for both myself and those I interact with. I recommend it should be you so inclined.
Have a good weekend and enjoy.
"Maybe", Heywood165 didn't intend his comment to sound elitist? But to me, even re-reading it, that's how it comes off. Sure it's not overly obnoxious and maybe my response was a little harsh considering? "BUT", I thought was done in a humorous way. Down votes be dammed... I was entertained!
Supporting local, doing something with your money to be proud of is great!! But you can fold up that 20 dollar bill and drop it to the side of the collection plate so it's pretty innocuous next to all the one dollar bill's most people throw in. OR you can leave it open and place it on top so everyone see's how much you gave. How you go about that says something about why you did it.
I'd totally love to grab one of these beautiful frames up in the article above. I did look at Sick, but they were preorder and for steel I really like keeping it RAW and they were like pink and green?
So I bought another of those mass produced Kona Honzo ST frames (like a large percentage of the public do). Geo's not as nice as the bikes in the article, but it's still gonna make a good bike!
Have a good weekend!
The reason most people buy mass market bikes is because that's what most people have the money , time, and access to acquire. Nothing wrong with it.
Nothing wrong with buying an UNNO and paying more for a frame than most whole bikes cost if that's what you want? (and for some people that's buying local too)
I"m all for celebrating and being passionate about whatever your bike buying decision is. But no reason to look down on others for making their buying decisions whatever they are...
I've never been called elitist before, so I will treasure this moment even though it was earned unwittingly.
Sam and I have been trying to fix the geometry problem. The fix is decoupling the handlebars from the front wheel as traditional systems have them limited. Once decoupled, we can work on the real geometry changes. The Chromag bars I was looking at with Ian would have helped some with this but the real solution lay in a whole different thinking. I'm grateful he wasn't able to help me. It forced the real fix.
What else would I be referring to? Chromag sells a lot of handlebars.
Cromag sells a lot of pedals, chainrings, HANDLEbars, seat posts, saddles, stems...unless stated that the "bar" was a "handlebar", it could be anything.
I'd never assume anything. You know what they say about assumptions...
Doesn't the "even slacker" seat post angle negate the longer reach? (I guess he could be posting actual and not effective? But either way it doesn't seem a modern steep SA?)
It seems longer reach along with a steeper SA buts you farther in the center of the bike allowing shortish seat stays to be desirable?
Course I've sure never designed a bike frame, so just armcharing here...
I guess I don't know how simple this all is.
Admittedly I was wrong about the P-dent. I saw the big 30mm over your drawing at a glance and didn't see the 5mm at the bottom. The warbird is a very cool bike and the bars were a great idea! Much better looking than the "top of the headtube" Mondraker 10mm stems!
Your views on geo seem to have transformed quite a bit from those super long stems you used to use and design around?
I don't design around stems. Stems are irrelevant.
But also, as someone who's read many of your posts over the years I'd have to say the quote, "stems are irrelevant" sure seems at odds with at least my perception of your thoughts on bikes?
www.peterverdone.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/stems.jpg
From your decoupling comment above it would seem the stem, or the reduction of the stem is what's driven your latest frame design? But I'm sure there's other way's to look at it...
At any rate, hope you keep the idea's coming!
The only thing a stem does is connect the handlebar to the steerer. We care about where the hand grips are to the pedals and front wheel. Where the steerer lay or the clamp matter little. Until recently, old ways of designing bikes were holding us back. Then the way stems and bars have been designed became the limiting factor. My most recent work decouples the grips from the connection system. We are now free to explore real geometry designs.
Thanks for the nice comments.
I for one am stoked to see brands sticking their necks out and trying stuff.
Tandem riders would love some extreme downcountry bikes like this.
They’re so fun, versatile and really do make you a better rider.
There’s also nothing like bringing a knife to a gunfight and dropping some jaws from time to time
I have a Nomad for the summer times and a PP shan for winter, the shan has an upgraded pike, full xt groupset, handbuilt wheels, reverb, atlas bar/stem, hope BB and PP headset, It rocks a 65 degree(ish) head angle and on the right trail is faster than the nomad, more fun and far better looking!
...243 Racing frame.
Like really really good time.
Stack your quivers boys and girls!
The trails are calling and these woods weapons are armed !!!
Dear author, why you mentioned only SHORTEST wheelbase for GLF?? or you just picked up data from data sheet??
It’s a belt drive ready frame, so dropout sliders have some travel
to be honest after riding both my Nicolai’s, my made in china vpp fills like big disappointment.
As with any bike main choices are level of component quality, tire size, and drive train.
I'm a sucker for the simplicity of the 1X but I'm hearing about lots of people wanting 2X (function over fashion).
Yay.
Sick design, nice components, straight out of Poland!
I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and form follows function, but bit that thing is hard on the eyes.
What that seems to mean for customers however is people waiting a year for frames (then getting the wrong ones) or not getting frames / parts at all, zero communication and no refunds despite multiple requests.
It’s worrying that they are still selling frames with expected ‘drops’ being this month but having experience running a small business I know how cash flow quickly becomes an issue and if you are not selling and have year old customers asking for money back it wouldn’t be hard to get in trouble (Hopefully not the case for all involved) - absolute silence on their usually very busy social media doesn’t promote confidence but I can imagine wanting to avoid people out for blood because you owe them £2k - and then there is the ultra elaborate crownd fund gearbox stuff.....
This is surely too much for anyone to be able to still defend them or their actions, or is this still an acceptable part of the edgy image?
Throughout the last year they used their followers to gang up on individuals that made complaints about them, they encouraged others on social media to ridicule people, boasted about calling a customer at home because he dared to negatively comment about them online and basically picked fights wherever possible. Sick have also been happy to participate in their own virtue signalling.
When you create notoriety and a following through your actions online and behave a certain way towards people, how can you expect people not to behave back in the same manner, especially when due to their silence disgruntled customers are painting the picture of scammers and thieves, even though this may be miles from the truth.
I really do hope they are sorting this stuff out in the background because though I am not a 'potential customer' I don't want to see them out of business, partly because its brilliant how many people that get pissed off by them and partly because a year on their hardtails look pretty nice and I really like that single pivot - they definitely have a 'spot' in the industry.
This Instagram account is the result of their actions: instagram.com/grizzlygnarcissist?utm_source=ig_profile_share&igshid=1vpmd24c75n75
A nice quote on Singletrack:
"I thought they were all about Long, Low, Slack? Long lead times, Low respect for customers, Slack attitude to running a business?"
It's your money but before you spend it you may want to read this thread;
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/my-sick-experance
@mr-ed: the moment I see someone making an instagram account like that is the moment I lose trust in every single thing that person says and sympathize with anything he is against. To take time doing sht like that in such form. My God... this is the mind set that in extreme situations makes people stretch fishing rods on neck height on bike trails. It is resentment driven malice. Do yourself a favor and be careful with that.
Big but though, at what point do you consider poor service to become ‘theft’ (maybe a poor use of term) if you have paid for a product and after almost a year have no product, no answer and no money? Is that just ‘poor customer support’ then?
If we were talking about a T-shirt then OK, but I gather some are thousands of pounds out of pocket.
I don’t think whoever has set the Instagram account up is going about things in the right manner but his language does mirror that of theirs in the past.
As above, I hope for all parties it works out but when you are such a public company, so active on social media, the inability to address people your are attempting to sell to and your customers is troubling, a broken iPhone is not an acceptable excuse.
@pvd666: Don't forget about Ben and me when you're a icon in the business. We had your back when the whole internet hated you like 36 hours ago.
Consumers in the bicycle market are flat out stupid. The work of the editorial staff at every media company know this. I'd be silly to not know this.
f*ck, what's happening to me?
My more recent posts used scenes from The Devil Wears Prada, The Empire Strikes Back, Rocky III, and even the music video of Video Killed the Radio Star. Don't pigeon hole me, bro. Also, some men just want to watch the world burn.
Also, folks may like this photo:
www.peterverdone.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/PVD_1035.jpg
Kinda makes the "internet experts" maybe think a little...
what geo numbers of these bike would lead you to believe that would happen?