14 Bikes That Could Be Set for an Update in 2021

 until 2030

 YT will have its new models come out this month. So as the Norco Range, which i am extremely interested. pretty much what was seen in the DH spyshots just with a different rear end but srill high-pivot !

 @goflowz:

Norco's Range definitely has my attention.

Appears to be high pivot like you said, but also dual crown compatible.

I hear they have frames ready, but are waiting for parts before they release (as they keep the current limited supply of parts going to more volume sellers like the Optic and Sight).

 @ocnlogan: Go to the very top of this page and click BuySell

 Well no one is going to buy any of these bikes listed now are they - bet the manufs love this post.

(Tbf I’ve been gagging to see a new tracer for 2 years now! Come on, Jeff!)

 @goflowz: how do you know about YT? Just based on the previous years or did I miss some news?

 @Richt2000: “I’ve been gagging to see a new tracer for 2 years now! Come on, Jeff!”

Is that a felatio based joke???

 @unrooted: no, sorry to disappoint. I guess British slang that doesn’t translate well to USA...

 Could Polygon make an uglier bike wow that thing broke every Branch when it fell out of the ugly tree. I think they need to go back to square one...

 @alexisalwaysonfire: They have released new models every year in January for as long as I can remember (or Google search.)

 @alexisalwaysonfire: i was told by customer service to "keep an eye out this January for the new model years" back in november

 @goflowz: Was told February or early march 2 days ago through an email chain with YT.
I asked if they will have 27.5 wheel based capra's and they said they can't share any info, let's hope!

 @unrooted: the only intense l want to see is an aluminum intense. Carbon take a hike

 @Richt2000: the carbine needs an update as well. the geo and sizing is starting to look old.

 Lol right!

 That's why used bikes cost the same as new

 @spinzillathespacelizard: Big time! Tracer still looks nice, but WAY out of date!

 @Richt2000: We found it hard to swallow

 @Richt2000: not a single bike on this list is available in the current model year.

 @wheelsmith: Except that this bike works incredibly well. I would consider the different look with an upgraded geo. I test the Marin and the Polygon version and both blew my mind!!!

 @BikesBoatsNJeeps: maybe because they are about to be updated, so they aren't making that many

 @goflowz: Do you really think they will have new models coming out this month? I just ordered a 2021 Capra Elite and I'm already starting to wonder if I just spent $6500 on something that is already outdated.

 @MxChase: yes, Commencal new bike year bikes come out in July for example. At this time it's better to wait. Why pre-order for April

 @jejsd: Nice to know. And bike looks don't really matter to much. My opinion has always been you cannot see it when you're riding it so I'll agree what matters more. However I would have to keep my eyes closed until I got on that thing.

 @wheelsmith: I have had one for just over two years and after awhile you really don't notice how it looks (for some reason it looks worse in their promo shots than in person). I have had zero issues with it and it has been a great bike all round. Had to do some bearing changes just recently, but given how much riding it has done that is pretty good. It pedals so well it even gets used for my work commute. Strangely my only complaint is actually how it looks when you ride it. The rear triangle is so fat that it gives a sort of weird feel on not being able to suss out any odd noise under you.

 Orange can't even send their bikes to PB to be included in the field test.

 Combine harvester chic

 Yep. Surprised they missed this.

 I'd like to see a new Smuggler that's between the Spur and Sentinel too.

 Fingers crossed for a mullet setup

 @mtbschrader: this

 This was the one I came here to see as well.

 @conoat: Patrol will never be 29. Defeats its purpose in the lineup.

 Yea, scouts geo is more ‘duro than the patrol....
Heres to a patrol in large with 490 reach, 63.5 HA, 78 SA and 435 chainstays....

 @drakefan705: i hope you are correct

 A Scout with a smidge mo travel would be rad

 @drakefan705: tons of brands with 29" only lineups. It's not up to us, or Transition really. It will come down to what people are buying.

 It's coming, relax, 27.5 will live on. But keep your eyes peeled for more TR surprises

 I'd wager a Super Sentinel is on its way.

 @bonkmasterflex: that's something to aspire to

 @mtbschrader: #whereismycarbonsmuggler

 Does Walrus still even make bikes?

 Especially with the death of the circus....

 Agree. The new primer was a step backwards imo - slacker actual seat angle, same short reach.
I’ve owned 2 intenses, but there is nothing in the line up today I would buy

 I will say the m29 was a GREAT bike but it broke and had so many maintenance problems. Plus it’s also tiny @Richt2000:

 @Richt2000: @freeridejerk888 Agreed. Pretty much ALL their bikes are behind! They were supposed to release new updated enduro bikes this year and couldn't get their shit together. Sad.

 Because they're always 5 years behind on geo.

 I'm sure paying Gwin's salary wouldn't be a priority for a company teetering on bankruptcy

 Meanwhile Gwin is sucking up all of intense’s capital lol

 @sdaly: Unless they banking on him having a winning 2020 season, trying to get people stoked on the brand again.

 Sadly I think they will be go down the same path as Turner and Ellsworth. Ironically all three companies are/were in the same area, Temecula. The glory days of getting an aluminum frame welded right here in Socal. Well there is still Foes, which is literally down the street from me. Again they too are a little behind the times in modern bike geometry.

 the only chance they have is to have more e-bike presence

 I highly doubt Intense is in financial trouble. They would not have signed Gwin if they were in trouble and that was before the surge in bike sales because of COVID. You don't see many Intenses in SoCal like in the 2000s because there are dozens more bike companies to choose from. Intense still makes quality bikes and sells them worldwide. Also, they haven't dropped their prices on their bikes of late which tells me they are selling them.

 I bought an Intense Primer Summer before last and it has been great - I shopped *everything* at the time and the package they offered was by far the best value at the time. Got a full carbon frame, full Sram GX 12spd, XT brakes, a RS Revelation fork with charger internals & debonair, free torque set, shock pump, free shipping, and the major icing was free e13 carbon wheelset (+aluminum wheelset!) = $4200. Weighs in under 30 lbs, 140/130 travel, great bike.

 @tacklingdummy:

Gwin and the new team is a marketing cost they had to bring on investors for. It's a gamble not a result of them being financially flush with cash.

Interesting point on pricing, though.

 @chriskneeland: To say that would be to say the same of Santa Cruz, no? Their bikes are virtually identical.

 @SuperHighBeam: Don't know. I've never considered buying a SC.

 @tonyplanet: shame foes don't answer e-mails or social media. The mixer enduro model they released was awesome..

 How do so many bicycle brands even survive in the first place? The market seems ultra-saturated; not looking at actual ability to procure a bike, just the offerings. Now that online-only vendors are growing quickly, they would gobble up the market share of all the struggling, traditional brands in a normal world.

What criteria do most casual/weekend warriors use to select a bike? Pinkbike reviews -> Price -> Colors -> Parts? I couldn't care less what some pro is being paid to ride.

 @cboatillo: I'm willing to bet anyone who's been on more than one bike pays pretty close attention to geometry and suspension kinematics.

 @cboatillo: Reviews from multiple bike media outlets, price, colors/graphic, component kit, suspension design. Geo I'd argue is a low level factor.

 @chriskneeland: Actually I somewhat doubt that. I believe the factors are

1. Aesthetics
2. Components
4. Geo/kinematics
5. Price

In that order with Price often overruling desires for 1-3

 @chriskneeland: Say that to the 951evo (2015) whos geo is the same as many modern dh bikes.

 @NorCalNomad: Except the Large fits like a modern Small...so in that case they're 10 years behind.

 @sethius: I’m surprised by this. I was very close to buying a Ridgeback 29er in summer and they were pretty responsive.

 @SuperHighBeam: Not really anymore since SC decided to go with the designs of the shocks mounted lower and that go through the seat tube on most of their frames. Their leverage curves are quite different. Both bike companies make great bikes.

 @cboatillo: That is an awesome deal. I am not doubting that Intense makes quality bikes, I have demo them in the past and they ride great. What is concerning to me is that Intense deeply discounting their bikes. Which leads me to believe A) There inventory/logistics planning is bad and they over estimate the amount they will sell in a given year B) No one is buying them, and they have to deeply discount to get rid of them in a fire sale.

There is no way any company can sustain that for long. Look at YT, always out of stock or long wait times, pre-order. I think in order for Intense to sustain their business, they will need to move to adopt to that same sales model or something really similar.

 @tacklingdummy: Intense has fires sales quite often. The last fire sale they did, they were throwing in free upgrade to carbon wheels, plus the extra set of aluminum wheels. Intense use to be "the boutique" brand back in the day (aluminum, made in America days), and they never discounted their bikes. I use to dream of owning one, and every time I would see on one on the trails I would be gawk and drool. Now when I see one on the trails, it's just the same as any other carbon bike out there. To be honest, I only really pay attention when I see "vintage" 26" wheeled ones on the trails these days.

 @tonyplanet: They just dropped their prices on last year's models very recently. I was on their website within the last week looking at bikes and they were all at full price. Interesting. 2021 bikes are still at full price.

 @sethius: They are small team. I think it's just Brent Foes, and two other guys in the shop. I always wonder how they stayed afloat all these years.

 @chriskneeland: Agree with a bike like the primer, but the sniper was pretty much cutting edge when it came out. Geo solidly in the middle of what trail bikes were at the time in an XC light and efficient package.

 @FJ40runr: The problem with the sniper is that's where short travel bikes already were at the time, so they were just catching up. They were close, but when other companies were already manufacturing bikes with steeper STA's, Intense put out a bike with and STA that we see on 2015 models. They're just always a few steps behind the rest of the industry.

 @SuperHighBeam:

With all due respect, I think you missed a Pinkbike comment requirement, my thoughts:

1. Water bottle
2. Aesthetics
3. Geo/ kinematic
4. Price/ components

I’d say price considerations is based on what components are on the bike. Do they charge $500 more for a GX build but still have cheapo wheels, or do they include some I9 wheels? But it’s obvious from bike redesigns, water bottles are considered important, as almost everyone has dumped bike designs that can’t fit a bottle in a normal place. I know it’s kept me from looking at a few bikes over the years.

 @tonyplanet: I know. The have sales, but only on last years models like most companies. In the past year, they haven't been putting their last year's bikes on sale, until this past week. Tells me they are selling bikes. I have had five Intense bikes over the years.

 @WasatchEnduro: You know for sure that they had to get investors? My thought is that Jeff Steber is running the entire show ( founder, owner, ceo, frame designer, engineer, etc.). They also, have Neko Mulally, Seth Sherlock, and ambassadors like Chris Kovarik, Claire Buschar and several others.

 @tonyplanet: I’m still rocking my M3, vintage head turner from the heydays!

 @tacklingdummy:

yes this was part of the press release when Gwin joined

 @tacklingdummy:

m.pinkbike.com/news/intense-restructures-with-a-new-management-team-and-a-commitment-to-racing-development.html

 @tacklingdummy: I know for sure they did

 @j-rawk: Nice! I have been trying to find a used tazer full susp., the king of dual salom bikes. That bike was awesome, Tyler McCaul aka T-Mac was awesome on that bike back in the day in Red bull District/Joyride

 Was literally about to say that. Pinkbike dropped the ball on that one

 @rjwspeedjunkie: Dropped the crystal ball I might say.

 Yeah but neither the front or rear triangle was reworked, just long-shocked right? coincidentally i was passed by a very fast rider (on the uphill) on a 100 or 115 this morning. It made me want a short travel rig but yetis are outside my price range for a second bike... would love Ibis to give us an alu Ripley to complement my RAF.

 @Reamonnryan

I’d expect to see the SB100 actually replaced by a whole new model, rather than updated. Something that differentiates it more from the SB115. They really are very close now.
I think you’ll see Yeti have a more XC frame.

 I'd of gone for a sb150 revision, 2021 is it's 3rd year. That's usually the switching point for Yeti.

 Didn’t they file a bunch of new patents for suspension design?

Wheelbased did a guest article on here about them, maybe one of them is for the SB100.

 @Upduro: I saw something about a gearbox ebike patent from them... the Pinkbike comment crowd will have a field day with that $15k piece of everything they say they hate.... but deep down they want so bad they have been taking online dental school courses.

 @Mjwilson82: I have a suspicion bikes are going to be stretched for another year due to supply and demand being at odds right now

 The 130 is due for an update. Make the lunchride spec standard, steepen the seat tube, and add SNACK storage in the frame. That's my dream.

 @laksboy: Snack storage and an accessory mount, maybe adjustable chainstay length with a flip chip like some brands do, but I don't see their geo changing a whole lot. I don't think it needs to

 @BigLips93: yeah, I'm a M size, so probably don't need the longer chainstay, but I totally agree, it should be a thing for the L & XL sizes.

 @BigLips93: Yeah... adjustable geo will be all the rage for the next few years. Any new release will have to have it or risk getting bashed by reviewers. Adjustable geo is the new "long, low, slack".

Ill pass on any cubby holes or hidden multi purpose tools that are hardly functional. I carry a hydration back pack and its capable of transporting anything I need on a ride?

 @Baller7756: you must not be very sweaty. I was a Camelback guy for 2 decades until this year. Getting all the water and weight off my back has been amazing. I'd love to have all my stuff inside the frame instead of strapped and taped to the outside...

 @laksboy: Clearly there is a demand for it. I suppose, if I didn’t carry a bag, I would want somewhere to transport the necessities.

I just don’t want any excess rattles and shakes. I also don’t want excess weight on the bike. Carrying weight on your body is different than bike weight. I have been less than impressed with multi tools on the trail... I much prefer to carry real tools (hardly a few more ounces). I don’t think a water battle would be sufficient volume for my typical summer ride.

Sure... if it was race day... I would save weight everywhere, but just riding... real tools and sufficient water supply are a must.

 @BigLips93: I agree, definitely going to be a year of catch up

 The current Bronson is almost entering its third model year (released in 2019). I'd bet it's got another 1.5 to two full years left.

 @Trudeez: yep. expect to see 27.5 bikes get longer and longer life cycles....

 I hope so! I would like to see an increase in reach to bring it more in line with the 5010 and Nomad.

 Yep Santa Cruz usually updates their bikes every 2 years. It will be 3 years July 1st since this Bronson is out so I'm guessing the new one actually comes out this Spring. I wouldn't be surprised if the Hightower gets a redo on July 1.

 @conoat: Wheels cant get mush bigger than 29"... you can already feel a pretty strong gyroscopic effect. So where do we go from there? We have a tendency to make "whats old, new again". You already see Mullet setups taking off... its probably in line with the adjustable geo trend to offer frame adjustments that allow for 27.5 or 29 or mullet setups. Leave the wheel size choice up to the rider.

 @Baller7756: we did leave wheel size up to the rider. almost everyone picked 29. the issue is with production costs and sales volumes. there's a baked in cost to develop a new bike. you pay 100% of that cost before you sell a single bike. if you know you are going to sell 1000 bikes, cool. but what about the bike you maybe sell 100 of? you still going to spend the same amount?

 @conoat: We did choose 29 the last few years. But that was most likely do to the “something new” factor, and the “bigger is better” factor.... oh and the “Strava” factor.

I just built my first modern geo 27.5 bike, and to me it’s like taking the training wheels off. I think most riders experienced 27.5 with older bikes with poorly designed frames, and suspension components... well all components actually.

I think there are enough riders who would prefer the ability to choose or switch wheels sizes on a single bike, that manufacturers will incrementally one up each other and offer it.

 @Baller7756: I rode all the baller 27.5 160-170mm bikes from 2013 or so until 2018. Literally no expense spared. the best of the best. the second I jumped on my first 160 29er, back to back on the track I am most used to(maybe a 1000 pulls on it over 4 years or so?) I was instantly 5sec faster than my PR. And have since sliced 20 sec off of that. this is about a 3:30 track over 1.4 miles or so. 1300ft drop.

there is no reason for that besides wheel size. that smaller front wheel saps so much speed and momentum when you hit holes and rocks and roots. I think Mullet is the future for 27.5.

 I'll add on the eeb front the new Orbea Rise is pretty innovative in that it sits between the Levo SL and full sized battery ebikes. The sweet spot IMO, the Levo SL just not different enough from an analog bike to justify the motor and battery.
For after work rides, all you need is 360wh, so you get to enjoy a light ebike for those. (more laps in daylight in winter) Slap the range extender on for longer days and you've got a full sized eeb all in one.

 For sure. I actually just checked on that myself.

 Yep, same since 2017. Way past due for a geometry (and style update). I mean, 448mm reach in size large?? Unfortunately, their site shows 2021 Trances, and it's still the same frame. So that's five straight years of the same bike.

 @tmargeson: And apparently people are still buying them too.

 I think they are just going to let the 27.5 Trance die off.

 I've got a 27.5 trance that I bought in 2019. Last year I slapped a 2 degree angleset on to "modernise" the geo. The reach is still tiny but its whatever. The bike shreds but I am definitively going to get something else eventually. The slack seat tube doesn't help it at all either.

 It's even stranger when you compare that and the Trance 29 to the Trance X and Reign 29. Giant's release schedule for bikes is bizarre to say the least (and completely ignoring how their North American e-bike line-up changes every year).

 I really like my 2017, but have been thinking getting something new and updated in the next year or two. Well interestingly enough I just discovered that the frame is cracked. Giant it’s going to be replacing the frame. So now I’m going to be getting a brand new 2021 frame with the exact same geometry as my old bike. I really can’t complain though because my old frame was pretty beat. I think instead of getting a new bike in the next year or two I’ll just update a couple parts on this one and roll with it for a few more years. Like I said it’s still super fun bike

 What is the difference between Trail and Downcountry? They would appear to be synonymous.

 @SuperHighBeam: trail has tended to grow travel over the years opening up space for a new category that will sell more bikes?

 @Mazador: That doesn't answer the question. You seem to be suggesting that Downcountry fits between XC and TR, so a 100-120mm travel bike is downcountry and 130-150mm is TR, 150mm-180 Enduro, 180-200+ FR/DH, and likewise 100mm is XC?

 @SuperHighBeam: i was just being a bit snide about marketing being used to sell more bikes. For what it's worth, most people shouldn't be on xc bike which are made for racing. Here's what mtbr have to say:
"Unlike most mountain bike classifications, downcountry is not just signified by how much travel it has. Downcountry bikes are all about the combination of short travel and progressive geometry."
It does sound a bit like a modern trail bike with travel from a few years back no?

 @SuperHighBeam: well my Element has 100 mm of travel in the rear with a 120mm ribbon and weighs 26 pounds. It's a great endurance XC race bike as well as a very capable trail bike, but only in the hands of an expert bike handler. I guess that's why so many people dont understand #downcountry it's a way of life bro. Sounds like a cushy trail bike would be perfect for you

 Came here to mention the Element. It was ahead of its time in 2017, but it already seems old compared to modern downcountry bikes, or even modern XC bikes.

 @SuperHighBeam: I think the TR isn't going anywhere, but I also think its not necessary anymore. Recent geo designs have improved the downhill capability of short travel bikes, and improved the climbing and everyday riding capability of Enduro. The TR is kinda in the middle and doesn't outperform in any particular category... sort of like all season tires... jack of all trades master of none.

 @Baller7756: So you're suggesting all that is needed now is XC, EN, and FR/DH. That seems a bit of a stretch unless XC bikes get more travel or a greater range of travel say 80mm-150mm, but that seems a bit ridiculous. For a lot of people a 150-180mm bike is just too much bike that beckons for terrain that is either beyond their comfort zone, beyond their ability, or of little interest to them. No sense in overbiking; get the right bike for 95% of one's riding, rent for the rest and save the coin for better components or other niceties in life. That I think justifies the continued presence of the TR category. Go XC if your terrain is relatively smooth or you race a lot. Go EN if you regularly ride some pretty rowdy terrain, otherwise TR is likely the place to be. TR fits a certain fun but not crazy niche. It doesn't need to outperform anything, it just needs to accommodate a very common use case. Same could be said of the other categories too.

 @SuperHighBeam: I think the downhill capable XC bikes... better know as Downcountry and the improved geo Enduro bikes (no new name yet) have put the squeeze on the Trail category.

DC if you want to set Strava records (summer tires), Enduro if you want more confidence in the chunk (winter tires). Or Trail if you just wanna putt around in a Toyota (all-season tires).

Lots of people buy Toyotas...

 @Baller7756: Downhill capable XC bikes...sounds an aweful lot like a synonymous term for a trail bike. What what I'm hearing is that Downcountry IS Trail but perhaps it sounds cooler. There will always be dedicated low travel XC bikes for those can't quite tolerate the hardtail super racey variants so to say that all XC bikes are putting the squeeze on the Trail category seems like a farce. Admittedly the line between XC and TR and TR and EN has gotten decidedly blurred. Just like categories in the automotive world.

"DC if you want to set Strava records (summer tires), Enduro if you want more confidence in the chunk (winter tires). Or Trail if you just wanna putt around in a Toyota (all-season tires)." I'm not following your analogy here. Seems more like your comparing tires than bikes. I think what you were suggesting is if Go-fast is your goal-> DC, if you want to tackle some gnar ->EN, if you just want to enjoy trails at a modest pace with moderate difficulty->TR. Guess what, most people do TR...TR ain't going anywhere. I'd also argue that many of the 130-140mm travel TR bikes can manage DC pretty well thanks to their slack and long geo.

 @SuperHighBeam:

There is no such thing as Downcountry, the proper term is #Downcountry
Do you race XC regularly? Apparently that is the only way you would understand #Downcountry.

A #downcountry bike is an XC race bike that has been modified to also be able to rip trails (Burlier fork, long travel dropper post, wide handlebars, maybe meatier tires) Usually a hardcore XC race bike would have none of this. If you have ever tried to win an XC race on a trail bike, you would know it will not happen. That is where #downcountry comes in. I can win XC races on my Element and still beat you down your favorite descent on it. Now brands are starting to spec XC bikes this way. Look at the new Epic vs Epic Evo.

Just because you don't understand a category doesn't mean you should try and shoehorn it into your own twisted worldview and tell us we are all wrong. Accept that you may not know what you are talking about and move on. You obviously don't need a #downcountry bike so why do you care?

 @SuperHighBeam: Yeah... sorry about the tire analogy. You would have to be into that sort of thing to get it. I believe you got the idea though. And you're right TR isn't going anywhere... its the safe zone, its the bike people choose when they are non-committal to their riding style or just not that into bike details... the bike you just buy and ride... take it to the LBS when its not shifting well. They are easy to sell too for those same reasons. Point is they are middle of the road... not great at any particular aspect of riding.

@hardcore-hardtail offered a great example of the TR squeeze with Specialized:
Epic... Epic Evo...Stumpy...Stumpy Evo. I'm saying the Stumpy is the odd bike out... the Epic Evo is tons faster and still trail capable... the Stumpy Evo can handle rougher chunk and still pedal well on the Greens... the Stumpy is just in the middle... blah.

 @Baller7756: "And you're right TR isn't going anywhere... its the safe zone, its the bike people choose when they are non-committal to their riding style or just not that into bike details... the bike you just buy and ride... take it to the LBS when its not shifting well." This comes across as a bit offensive. Trail is a not a non-commital choice. Trail is for those that ride more aggressive and want a more comfortable ride than a conventional cross country bike. To really justify an enduro bike you need to be regularly riding over large obstacles, hucking drops, hitting large jumps, or just riding otherwise very gnarly terrain. That just isn't most riders. That more a matter of being conservative than being non-commital. Trail is a sweet spot where you can maximise the fun factor without taking large risks. So I do not agree with your sentiment about why buy a trail bike. Plus I'd say there are plenty of serious bikers that ride trail and care for there own rig. You make trail bikes out to be overly compromised, and I just can't seem to agree with that either. They are really good for the right group of riders, which is also true for all of the other bike categories.

 @SuperHighBeam: I'm disappointed... but not surprised that someone is offended... its the in thing now a days. No offence...

I can have fun on any bike...but I just cant buy a TR again. It just feels a little too slow when I want speed, and a little too limited and compromising when I want to "take risks". I can do all the middle ground stuff with a DC or EN bike... so it just makes more since (to me) to choose a type of riding that I'm more inclined to do (DC or EN) and do that really well... but also use the bike for the middling stuff.

I myself have a couple bikes... so I can choose a bike for the type of riding I want.

 @Baller7756: That's fair. If a TR bike doesn't meet your needs so be it. I am curious though, in your opinion what physically differentiates a DC bike from a TR bike? You obviously feel there is a difference so I'm curious what you perceive that to be. It may also be worth pointing out what you feel the difference is between an XC bike and DC bike.

 @SuperHighBeam: Sure... Ill give it a go.

XC = 80-100mm, less aggressive geo, 23+/- pounds, less aggressive/light weight tires.
DC = 110-120mm, low/long/slack geo, 26+/- pounds, aggressive/light weight tires.
TR = 130-140mm, less aggressive geo, 29+/- pounds, aggressive/mid weight tires.
EN = 150-170mm, low/long/slack geo, 32+/- pounds, aggressive/mid weight tires.
DH = 180+mm, low/long/slack geo, 35+/- pounds, aggressive/heavy weight tires.

In this example... the TR looks like it has a nice slot to fit in... and it does (as I have said). I just prefer the speed and aggressiveness of the DC, or the bomber capability of the EN... both of which can do the middling duties of casual riding just as well as the TR (thanks to modern geo).

 @Baller7756: Interesting. You're argument seems to hinge entirely on TR bikes not have modern geometry, i.e. low/long/slack. Yet many companies have made these very changes to their TR bikes in recent years. So are you suggesting that DC bikes merely have lower/longer/slacker geometry than the already modern low/long/slack geometry of contemporary TR bikes while also having less travel and less weight? This gets really confusing too when you consider if a bike's suspension travel is dictated by the fork or by the rear suspension. For example, my bike has modern low/long/slack geometry, 115mm of rear travel, and 130mm of front travel and is marketed as a TR bike. But, by your definition, my TR bike might actually be a DC bike despite having the weight of a TR (XL full carbon frame with dropper post and aluminum wheels).

 @SuperHighBeam: So you have an SB115?

Yes... I think the issue at hand is that traditional TR bikes with "modern geo" have pushed themselves very close to EN. creating a gap that has been filled by DC bikes. And that is the whole issue... traditional TR bikes have been replaced by DC and modern geo TR bikes now more like EN bikes.

 @Baller7756: Actually no, I have a carbon Pivot Mach 429 Trail. But same tier of bicycle I guess you could say.

That is an interesting assessment of TR bikes. It's almost like you're suggesting that there are two tiers of EN bikes. Compromised EN bikes formally called TR bikes with 130-140mm travel and actual EN bikes that have 150-170mm travel. This is an interesting theory and opinion. So here's a funny thought, I wonder where you would place my previous bike a 2012 vintage 110mm front and rear travel FSR bike (that was also considered a TR bike). It wasn't low/long/slack by current standards but it was compared to the XC bikes of its day. By your rubric though, I wonder if you'd consider that an XC bike today.

I have not had the opportunity to ride a contemporary DC bike, but seeing as how I able to fully utilize my 130mm/115mm rig, I doubt the DC bike would have enough travel to meet my needs, yet a 150-170mm bike is far too much bike for my comfort level to fully utilize. Nonetheless you posit an interesting argument about why the market needs DC, TR, and EN. I think there are probably valid arguments for the elimination of either DC or TR. But now that, for example, FOX has a 32, 34, 36, 38, and 40 I find it hard to believe any of the categories (XC, DC, TR, EN, FR, DH) are going anywhere anytime soon. It a buyers market and you can now find a bike that fits your needs perfectly, or buy multiple bikes to address multiple needs (that is what the bike industry wants us to do)...that good old adage of how many bike do you need? N+1 is always the answer and the bike industry is making sure there is always an option for that +1 bike.

 @hardcore-hardtail: Didn't realize hashtags were so critical these days. I thought that was just a social media tagging thing, not actually part of a name.

I do race XC, but I also race other categories. I feel like you described a compromised XC bike rather than an enhanced XC bike. If I were serious about racing XC I'd just own an XC bike. I want a quiver killer bike I'm not going with a #Downcountry bike that isn't going to be aggressive enough. I really doubt your DC will be as pleasurable, comfortable, or as fast my TR bike to descend. I wouldn't say I am trying to shoehorn the DC category in my world view to tell anyone their wrong. But certainly do question why the DC category needs to exist but perhaps it could be argued that a DC bike is compromised XC bike in the same sense that a TR bike is a compromised EN bike. That is probably a fair argument."You obviously don't need a #downcountry bike so why do you care?" Touche. I care because I feel bad for those just entering the sport that are likely overwhelmed by the diversity of bikes to choose from and the lack of clarity about what each category of MTB of is best suited for. Besides that, who does "need" a DC bike and why won't another category meet their needs? I think that is probably a tough question to answer and I suspect a big factor is simply stigma. I bet a there are a lot of guys that enjoy riding XC but don't want, what may be perceived as, a soft, weeny image so they forego the XC bike and select a DC bike because that's more macho and perhaps a little more versatile and because one bike is all they can afford to have. Winning races isn't important to me, I'd rather have fun and push myself in the company of others in XC, DC, and TR races hence a TR bike was the best choice for me (and I only have one bike).

 @SuperHighBeam: I was just having a laugh with the hashtag.

Your last statement "Winning races isn't important to me" is my best explanation of why you don't understand.

If winning races was important to you and you could only afford one bike that you still wanted to shred rowdy trails = Downcountry.

I'm done with this silly conversation,

Happy Trails!

 @SuperHighBeam: I do enjoy this conversation... so thank you for that.
I believe what may be missing from my ability to convince you that DC and EN have pinched TR to the point of obsolescence, is your not having ridden a modern geo DC or EN bike.

You mentioned your concern for enough travel with a DC bike... that's the brilliance of DC... the modern geo allows you to engage all but the most extreme conditions with confidence and speed beyond what a traditional TR bike could... with less travel... and less weight.

On the other hand you mentioned a 150-170 bike is far too much for you... but again a modern geo EN bike makes that additional travel unnoticeable, and you always have enough for any challenge.

I have a DC and an EN... if I had to choose one, it would be the DC. But I do enjoy virtually eliminating the trail with the EN every now and then.

 @hardcore-hardtail: "If winning races was important to you and you could only afford one bike that you still wanted to shred rowdy trails = Downcountry." I can agree with this scenario/ justification for a Downcountry bike. I don't see much of any other reason for one though.

Happy Trails!

 @Baller7756: You're welcome for the constructive discussion!

"I believe what may be missing from my ability to convince you that DC and EN have pinched TR to the point of obsolescence, is your not having ridden a modern geo DC or EN bike." Possibly.

"that's the brilliance of DC... the modern geo allows you to engage all but the most extreme conditions with confidence and speed beyond what a traditional TR bike could... with less travel... and less weight." Maybe. You're suggesting I could ride faster with more confidence on a bike with less travel assuming the DC bike had geometry more aggressive than my trail bike. I just doubt their is much difference in geometry compared to my current bike for me to draw that conclusion about a DC bike.

"On the other hand you mentioned a 150-170 bike is far too much for you... but again a modern geo EN bike makes that additional travel unnoticeable, and you always have enough for any challenge." I don't want to tempt myself to take on challenges bigger than I already contend with; I'd just be asking for bigger injuries...played that game once already when I had a DH bike and got overconfident with the bike. I would consider an EN bike if I decide to further progress my riding abilities, but I'm pretty content with where my abilities are right now. Alaska trails are not so rowdy as to really need EN levels of travel. If lived in the American SW again or the North Shore of Vancouver BC, EN bike all the way. What can I say, I buy bikes that match 95% of the riding I do and TR fits that quite well. I think DC would have me wanting a little more bike and EN would give me way too much confidence to do dumb things for which I lack the skill to succeed at riding resulting in inevitable injuries. The TR bike is a good insurance policy; keeps me in check. If I ever get the chance to demo a modern DC bike (or shoot an EN bike) I won't hesitate to try it. Sadly not many bike makes venture up here to strut their product. If anyone was really likely to, it would be Trek.

 that bike has looked the same forever

 Yeah that one has not been updated since 2015. Which could also mean that they worked so well there wasn't any need for change.There were some pictures of of a 29'' wheeled prototype in 2019.

 If they made it more progressive and 29 it would be current now. Maybe a bit longer but they were ahead of their time with the geo.

 Hahaha!! :-)

 Bet it'll die in their lineup just like Marin. That frame has been very universally scorned and rightly so.

 None of you guys have spent much time on one obviously. It is an amazing suspension system. Travel for days, real bob free climbing, it lives up to the marketing hype. My mate has one and if there was ever any stock in my size, I would be on one too now. Instead I own two other bikes to cover the riding a single xquareone does.

 I actually asked them about this about a month ago, and they said they felt there were other bikes that needed to be updated first. Based on that I'd gather 2022...especially since they had the "enduro" model come out this year

 @DBoyle: wow, they're missing out on a lot of sales with a bike that leans heavy and conservative on geo. too many other good alternatives now.

 Hmmm....I think this bike will be new in 2021.

 They will release a new version with updated geo, this bike should be competing against the Spur, Ripley, etc... and it's out of date. Of course you won't be able to buy one for another 5 years, but...

 Maybe but it was just updated in late 2018. I bought mine right before the new version came out, glad I did. The new one wasn't nearly as pretty and the geo wasn't particularly different.

 New Firebird this year I think

 @Brasher: That seems more likely.

 Right on!

 @Brasher: My wallet hates the prospect of a new firebird

 I own the current Mach 5.5 so I'm not really in a rush to have it be "outdated" officially, but I believe its the oldest bike now in Pivot's line up. Unless they just do away with it?

 Prototypes were ridden at the cranworks summer series. I suspect we'll see it announced closer to spring.

 It’s coming....

 Norco is going to release a high-pivot enduro/all-mountain bike this spring/summer that will sit below the Shore in terms of geo/travel. It was originally slated for March but production delays have pushed it back to Summer as Norco would like to have manufactured stock upon release. Should be a good one!

 There's always Chinese whispers coming from trek, I wouldn't be surprised to see the current remedy continue for a year at least. I was working at the WC 3 years ago and the trek staff were talking to us about the 'new' slash that was to be released the next year.

 Which is funny because there used to be a Remedy 29 that seemed pretty good (and won EWS races).

Maybe they'll mullet the new one... if they can nail the geo (for once).

 How bout not moving every single bike to 29" wheels?

 I think the remedy is going to die entirely. Already barely any models available.

 No thanks. I love my Remedy on 27.5 only thing is I wish it had a TWAT box and steeper STA

 @TadejStrah: then all mtbs will have the same wheel size...isn't it incredible to think of a situation where all bikes are on the same wheel size??

 probably going wild with reach will not happen, since everyone refers to the remedy as "BMX handling MTB". Can't see Trek moving the remedy to a "enduro 27.5" approach.
Shorter seat tube hopefully, and a little more steep.

 @HopeFbn: wouldn’t want to go crazy with the reach either, circa 470 for a large would be nice. Also wouldn’t want to lose the playful handling though....

 @Dav82: Yes. This please with the TWAT box and I'm in. Even if I have to "rIdE aRounD on a TrEk."

 @Stoaks: yep, if they add the box like they did with the Fuel Ex and the Slash them I am going to buy a frameset right away.
Hopefully they add it on the alloy version.
Remedy won't increase wheelbase I assume.

 If they remove knockblock I'd buy it in a heart beat

 @Cambornerider: I love my remedy as is, but barspins would be nice....

 Mullet is a good option, but not for everyone. I think 27.5 will always have his place in the industry

 @timcloutier: I agree. People with a jumping/freeriding influence like the balanced/ symmetrical feel of keeping the wheels the same front and back. 26 to 27.5 had nice advantages, without taking too much away from that nimbleness. Jumping up to 29 makes enough difference to alter the way you ride. I think both wheel sizes have their place and definitely have their pros and cons. NSMBs review of the Nomad had a good point. 29 is fast plowing over rough terrain and maintains traction well, but 27.5 accelerates faster when pumping backsides and is more nimble. If you ain't racing, 27.5 and mullet are great options and arguably more fun (bike dependant of course. I've had an absolute blast on some short travel 29ers).

 2021 Instinct [new frame with updated geometry] is out in a few months [March/April?] with XS and S sizes in 27, and S to XL in 29. Thunderbolt may be relegated to entry-level alloy.

 I think the thunderbolt is being phased out. RM will combine the instinct/thunderbolt platforms like they did with the altitude/instinct bc and the blizzard/Suzy q. Also their website now lists the 2020 instinct as archived in the drop-down but no option for 2021 yet. The announcement should be soon. I know they can be ordered. My lbs ordered one with delivery anticipated in April.

 Lol no

 @freeridejerk888: Yes, I have proof

 @timcloutier: proof you care to share?

 @CircusMaximus: Unfortunately I said too much so I can't. But I know a guy working in a SC dealer and saw it

 Lmao well he’s wrong so @timcloutier:

 Good call! That's WAY out of date!! Forgot about that one, it's so old.

 Norco will release a high-pivot enduro bike this summer. Been in the works for a long time. Hotly anticipated by many folks at Norco shops!

 Still riding my "XC Trail" 2017 RM Thunderbolt with 130/120 mm travel. Was hoping they would come out with a mid-travel 29er replacement that has a bit more travel than the Element? (I certainly don't need a 170mm enduro or a 150mm trail bike.)

 Looks like a Gambler

 It will be a high pivot. Trek info..

 Any information about that? I'm interested!

 @Chnoux: No. But they have not released a 2021 model. And no updates to the frame since 2018.

 Naming a product like that without dying of laughter is the real accomplishment.

 I disagree on the Jeffsy, but only a little. I rode a friend's J29 (top build) and loved how agile and light it was, it handled amazingly compared to raked out enduro sleds. I say keep it an everyman's trail bike. You can already upfork it to 160 which gets the hta down to 65 1/2 ish. It's a fun bike that shouldn't be enduro-ized too much imo.

And the sta is already refreshingly steep plus in the high setting and with a 160 fork it looks like it'll work with a smaller rear wheel without killing the geo or putting your pedals at too much risk of killing you in the rocks.

 Hightower just got it last year, right?

 @dmondave: I feel like its already dated geo wise, along with the megatower. I know santa cruz is somewhat conservative but its fallen behind quickly in the geo category

 A Megatower update in ‘21 was alluded to by a SC email floating around in an owners group.

The fact that they added a coil and long forked it this year seems to confirm the geo is already dated and soon to be updated. Every time SC mutates the original bike they update it the next model year.

 Agree, the geo on the Capra almost looks pre-historic compared to it's fellow enduro bikes

 I was thinking Spider. But yeah Uzzi makes sense.

 Isn't the scout just a modern br? But I agree tbh. I love mine, just wish it were lighter and a bit longer.

 @Kamiizoo: pretty sure the br was heavily slopestyle focused. people used it as a trail bike (actually had a 888 on mine and used it for dh, lol) but I don't believe it was intended for that.

 @happycatbasket: freeride. Meant to take an absolute beating on the biggest jumps you can do. Yeah now that I think of it the scout isn't really a modern br.

 It was updated in 2017

 @boozed: that's a negative. The Spark was updated for MY2017, the Genius for MY2018.

 My guess is if they even keep those bikes in line up.. they get mullet options.

 Forgot about that one. It's way out of date too.

 Eifeltower

 delete

 Trumptower..........I'll see myself out...

 @mildsauce91: that was some spicysauce here

 @Hamburgi: Megatower went out not even 2 years ago. 64.7 HA is still a trend. The reach is a bit short but I don't think it's a necessity for bike brands to update bikes every 2 years just for 15mm more reach and 0.5 degrees slacker HA and steeper STA.

 @timcloutier: Exactly, still relevant. Strip the paint, change the color and voila good to go for another year. err maybe not.

 Oh my, the pinkbike world would end as we know it, jk. Or what if the new session looks like all of the other bikes in it's class, who's the copy cat then? Would you still say that everything looks like a session, or would a different bike become the benchmark since they were first?

 Internet implodes

 You're kidding right? The HTA is 1.5-2.5 deg steeper than its competition, STA the same though too slack, Reach is so short you'll be cramped on the bike. It needs a big overhaul.

 @Mjwilson82: i just put a -1.5 headset in mine so there is nothing to complain about geometry wise. Lack of bottle holder is a pain though. The seat tubes are quite low, I sized up to a large despite being closer to a medium, so reach is fine. Amazing bike for the price.

 @Mugen: Certainly not disagreeing that it's a great price for the bike. Though you could argue if you are putting an angle set in and sizing up beyond what you usually would there's something that needs changing in the design?

 @Mjwilson82: YT sizing is different as they go Small to XXL so people can size up/down. The reach is definitely modern. Is it the longest out there? No, but it’s definitely not a short bike. When I bought one it was one of the only long travel enduro bikes that was over 500mm in its biggest size. Most new bikes are 500-520 in their biggest size.

Head tube angle is at 65 degrees. Most new enduro bikes are 64. I expect the next gen to slacken a little.

Chain stays 435-440 depending on size. They were ahead of the game by changing the length based on bike sizes. Modern numbers here.

STA is pretty shit. 75.5 effective is definitely not realistic. Biggest issue I have with it, especially running a 210mm dropper.

Just look at the new slash for comparison... the Capra is pretty darn close geo wise and is 3 years old. With the exception of the STA and a slightly steeper HTA, the bike has pretty modern geometry.

 @Mjwilson82: of course it would be better if the geo was up to date or even pushing the boundaries, but compared to a lot of bikes in this list, saying the geometry of the current model is completely out of date is pushing it a bit. I'm just saying with a 60e upgrade mine has geometry that is about the same as many 2021 bikes. No need to downvote everyone in the discussion...

 @cocatellez @CMRider I was thinking the Bronson was just done in 2019 for 2020. No?

 New Warden and Delirium were just released. If you mean Endorphin, I hope so too. I asked Knolly about and they said it not until late 2021 or early 2022.

 Needs to be more progressive!