What's Up With Aaron Gwin's Bike?

 Best comment on pink bike ^

 One protour was unhappy with your comment. @nocoolnamesleft

 If spesh chose a 135mm axle for handling, I'm sure they're tuning frame flex as well. It may never see production because clydedales would be warrantying their frame like every year, but for a one season frame it's probably perfect.

 Oh just you wait, PB never fails to produce a bunch of fucking jackasses to post ridiculous shit to support their hair-brained theories that have never been seeded within reality. Thank god I'm too busy watching Beavis and Butthead Do America or else I might lose my mind in the idiocy.

 New Protour sketch in 3...2...1... www.pinkbike.com/u/protour/album/Potential-2016-Demo

 You think gwin going over the bars was because of the bike?!?! You gotta have a couple crews loose to think that. What about gees crash? What about the other 50+ racers that crashed through out the weekend? It's all part of the sport. People crash. Gwin crashes once and now you say it's because of the bike? Lol

 Gwin Did Not Crash! He just got off his bike to stretch his legs and sign a few autographs during qualifying.

 I can't remember Troy ever going over his bars... Protour's tin foil hat is in full gear. Must be from eating all the crow,

 @jaydawg69 - Troy Brosnan Massive OTB - www.pinkbike.com/news/troy-brosnan-crash-video-2014.html

 ....say Protour, I didn't know you were a yoga expert too .... www.pinkbike.com/photo/12067446/#top

 Sorry this seems like a noob question but can any one tell me what in the hell is Protour?

 ha ha @ fantaman, no offence but we've been asking the same question for years now :O) ...

 Think of these crackheads shouting conspiracy theories at the subway stations, only digitally and about bike related stuff.

 You guys seriously think specialized, one of the largest bike companies out there, would let a bike as important as the demo go into production if it is "unsafe"? Lol. Surely if something was so bad that people on pinkbike would see something wrong, a spec engineer who deals with this stuff every day would have picked it up a long time ago.

 What's the Frequency, Protour?

 Last thursday I went over the bars after riding off a drop and smacked my face right into the ground, getting loam stuffed right into my mouth turning it into an open wound. Banana shake and yoghurt are my main sources of food for next two weeks. I could blame it on many things, like being tired, unfocused, I pumped 5PSI more into the air schock and took 2 clicks off LSC, but above all I commited two main crimes: I had too little speed and I looked down. A slight fool would say I should have had a fullface helmet (just not the Bell Super 2R, it has no certificate = unavoidable sudden explosion of the chin guard without a warning!) but only a complete, utter idiot could blame it on a thing like head angle or weight distribution, or suspension system.

 I think specialized simply put a tracking device in the seat mast and paper mache'd over it, so in case the bike was stolen they could find and castrate the thieves. They also ribbed it for your pleasure and its just icing on the cake that its also to cause an uproar with pinkbike users. cause if we're talking about it then we're thinking about it. which means we're that much more likely to buy one....i still wont buy one.

 @WAKIdesigns Did I read that right, Your Bell Super 2's chingard exploded? causing more injury from the pieces? I was going to get one, maybe not now

 I do not own such helmet, however there's been a gigantic troll fest here on Pinkbike after release of one, and people claimed without even seeing one that it is extremely dangerous and the only argument they had was lack of certificate. I DID own a Giro Switchblade which I crashed in twice, once landing almost stright on my face after no hander suicide attempt from a gap drop off, 2m drop, 6m horisontal. My face remained intact. I think you can buy one and it will surely add some protection to your face, unless you believe the words of board of PB engineers and physicists from the Church of Rationality acting ONLY upon reason and logic, guided by true sciencific facts

 @WAKIdesigns Count yourself lucky. From the sounds of things, you are a very good rider and being down and out for two weeks should be bearable. I went over the bars two weeks ago, hitting the ground really hard. Broke/dislocated my right thumb, cracked a couple ribs, and broke my upper left humerus in three places. Had to have surgery to fix the humerus - many screws and a plate. I'm down and out for 6-8 weeks. I ride Spec. Was it the bike's "design flaws" (as some village idiot on here - who will remain nameless - wants everyone to think) that caused the wreck? No, it was the rider; I'd raised my seat back up thinking the hard, fast riding was done only to find out it wasn't (we were only 150 feet from the parking lot/end of the ride) and thus I was catapulted off of the bike. Noob mistake from a not-so Noob.

 ...told ya so.

 ^ this is why I get so confused as to why carbon wheel manufacturers are trying to push super wide, super stiff carbon wheels onto us. Too much stiffness, especially in your rims, makes for a shitty ride.

 Better to have controlled flex in the frame than noodly wheels, I would think.

 never did I say noodly wheels. Wheels need to be stiff but there is a limit where they become too stiff.

 Of course you need flex in your wheels. Otherwise it's going to vibrate throught the whole bike (suspension won't be able to fully dampen all those tiny vibrations), it's going to feel really harsh and it'll f*ck up your hands

 gotta love when someone just pulls something out of their ass and actually believes it enough to write it down and post it for everyone to see. @rhanrick, just do some research before you make such bold claims.

 I remember Fabien Barel saying in the early 2000's that they used to slacken the spokes slightly for some rough tracks because the rim was so rigid and with this setup they could go faster. This was before carbon rims.

 Vouilloz always uses aluminium instead of carbon for better compliance/flex. Back in the days when he was dominating, they also played with spoke tension depending on the track.
People who do not realize that the wheels are a part of the suspension on a bike will never have the optimal bike setup.

 That is a very common belief that has been debated and misunderstood for decades, and I am sure it will be debated again here and now. And I mean no disrespect to the amazing Barel in any way. So long as your spokes maintain pre-load and tension, meaning they don't go slack under load, then the wheel stiffness does not change with spoke tension. Spokes are pre-loaded springs and it still takes X amount of force per mm to displace them regardless of that pre-load. The point at which your spokes loose tension, your wheel stiffness becomes non-linear, somewhat unstable and the strength drops off quickly. This is a scenario one tries to avoid by keeping the tension sufficiently high. As long as your stay in the tensioned world, the stiffness is constant. Running spokes with tension low enough to regularly live in the slack world is generally ill advised, but certainly occurs in DH.

The only real ways to change wheel stiffness are with spoke count, spoke gauge, bracing angle and of course rim stiffness (material, x-section, thickness)

 Tires make a big effect, control vs grid vs DH . . . . . .

 We went with 135 to keep the rear end as narrow as possible - for heel clearance and to tuck in the dropouts and rear dérailleur. Scraping your dérailleur against rocks and roots scrubs speed unnecessarily and you risk bending or losing your rder altogether.

 @fatenduro being bitchy before your question gets answered will not get you far in life...

 @jason-at-specialized - disclaimer: this is a question asked to learn something, not to provoke anything, there are no hidden meanings, it is bike internet I had to write this. I am asking this like a small boy standing by a race car

so... the thing you wrote about wheel stiffness is interesting: my "cheap Chinese" 380g carbon rim with 28mm internal width, FEELS stiffer than my 670g Mavic 729 aluminium rim with similar section. But does it have any influence on actual grip, does properly tensioned wheel with aluminium rim provide any larger tyre patch than a carbon rim? (given same tyre type and pressure, on same bike, with all variables being the same off course)

Congratulations for the winning race BTW!

 With 7sp drivetrains incoming, (and maybe gearboxes some day) 135mm (or 142) will be the future of DH, in my opinion. no more 150mm required.

 @WAKIdesigns Here's an excellent article by Nox Composites that addresses your question & actually does the rather involved math required to demonstrate the potential range of rim deflection.
Scroll down to "Vertical Compliance":
www.noxcomposites.com/wheel_building

Punchline? The engineers at Nox don't believe that the tiny variance in vertical rim compliance is a meaningful part of the equation compared to tire casing deflection.

 @Veloscente - thank you, that is gold! I get it and I am 100% aware of psychological bias a man has. But the question remains can there be any water in the sensation I get that aluminium rim of comparable section with same tyre choice and pressure FEEL comfier to me? May this be due to aluminium rim section TWISTING under load more due to more elasticity? I could get it with thinner internal width, where the tyre deflects more to the sides, but with same section?

 Why do you only discuss VERTICAL compliance of the rim. I doubt you can provoke effects in that respect without messing up the all-over wheel performance (tyres provide massive vertical compliance, and last but not least the bike's suspension handles vertical forces btw). However, there's also the aspect of LATERAL compliance, especially riding off-chamber. I can't claim that I myself feel a difference (I also haven't done any testing with an identical frame and identical tires+pressure but different wheelsets on the same track) but I find the experience others discribe very plausible. i.e. that a overly stiff wheel makes you loose grip a bit earlier and more suddenly.

Moreover you could discuss the issue of vertical compliance in the "snakebite" case, where more compliance (= bending of the rim) could safe you a flat tire

 Matthew - the article that Veloscente posted points out that there is virtually no difference in vertical compliance of the rim thus bending, between alu and carbon rims. Off course one could want to see at least two more articles of this quality, preferably a counter theory. I am unable to fully believe in any "science" companies quote when releasing a product like that bullcrap about 20% increase in stiffness of 148 Boost over 142, or even worse, that Adobe Illustrator generated science that Giant released about 275 wheels.

As to off cambers or rockgardens, talking rims alone, the rim lateral stiffness does not play as much role as rim width, eventually combined with tyre size and casing type. Wide rims that I tried 24mm and 29mm are hands down, absolutely superior to other ones I had like XC717 (17mm internal) or Mavic Crossmax ST (19mm) when it comes to tracking on off-cambers and in rockgardens because tyre stops acting like a jelly spring. Given the same tyre pressure, and type, a rock hit at an angle may deflect the wheel with narrower softer rim less than a stiff wide rim, BUT the moment that tyre touches the ground again and rim, then whole bike, finaly you, cushions on it - is a totaly different story. Wide rim will keep things relatively in line while narrow rim will slide on tyre side to side for some good half of an inch or more, negatively affecting your balance. I will never forget my first ride on xc717 rims with thin nobby nics on, holy sht... Another detail about rim stiffness - go ride those cheese ZTR rims like Crest or Arch Ex on a 29er and tell me how do you like dynamic cornering with them, hit some berms with them!

I can only comment of fork stiffness though - my shiver sc 120 is a freaking GOD of off cambers. I did one shitty rooty off camber with it on high line in wet, that i barely hold on to in dry on 36, in wet I always get tossed to the low line.

 @WAKIdesigns Your contact patch is determined almost entirely by your air pressure, so no, rim material or construction does not increase contact patch size or traction.

Randoms - A wider rim creates a bigger tire, allowing you to lower your pressure. Carbon rims generally are stiffer laterally that alloy rims. Vertical compliance is so great on bicycle wheels that you can't really tell the difference compared to tire deflection - Nox article was correct. Lateral stiffness is where you notice differences in rim width, material, etc.

 Thanks for answer Jason - but what can generate the harsh feeling? Is it the rim not bending sideways, twisting? After riding Mavic Crossmax ST for half of a year and destroying 2 tyres, two different occasions of landing sideways off a drop/jump (Rocket Ron and Purgatory Control) I deicided it is time for wide rims and I bought carbon hookless ones - I was expecting compliance, but my initial impression was - harsh. Any chance that it isn't just in my head? I accept that answer though hahah, I know I am messed up

 Without any direct experience with your set-up, I can't really offer a specific answer. In general, carbon wheels are stiffer laterally which provides a different feel. Also, carbon wheels have a lower inertia than heavier alloy wheels, and this can feel more harsh to some people over a heavier wheel that holds momentum better. Your results may vary.

 Thanks for insight Jason! A big fan of your stuff, it is actually very cool to see stuff that regular people can't buy, nobody complains they cannot buy an F1 or LeMans car. I think it is good from PR standpoint I wish you more occasions for champagne at the office! Cheers!

 @jason-at-specialized Are the new airshocks like the one currently on gwins demo much more progressive than the coil shocks previously used? I was surprised to read that the new cnc'd link run with the airshock was apparently more progressive than the original carbon link, Is this information correct?

 You can tune an air shock to be more or less progressive with air spring volume. Remember that coil springs are also progressive if you factor in the bottom out bumper. The CNC link is more progressive, yes. Honestly do not know where the final tune on that air shock landed.

 When you say "bottom out bumper" do you mean the foam type device that sits in the shock shaft? Now MX suspension's (both shock and fork) have used some type of hydrolic bottoming cones forever. We chose the ohlins/spring bikes (evo and demo) over air anytime.

 Yes, I am referring to the foam or rubber bumper that rides underneath the coil spring and on the shaft. Coil springs usually are more plush and have less seal friction and Air springs are significantly lighter. Pros and Cons to both. Looks like Fox may have found a sweet balance in the middle.

 Curious, as I hear that more from other mountain bikers than from roadies. I'm a Tarmac rider, although not synthetically enhanced, and if you are born with a great set of lungs and a great heart, the machinery doesn't matter at all. For us mere mortals, the machinery does help give us a little performance boost and I can guarantee you that we all know what each other is riding!

 It can't come as too much of a surprise that roadying has that rep surely? These guys were dosing waaaaaay before lance. Coppi, mercx etc etc. the list goes on.
I'm not casting aspersions, I couldn't care less! Actually it makes it the most exciting sport in the world, because even 10 years later, you're still not sure who won!
I read that the next placed rider on many of lances wins who had no association with doping was 13th!!!!!

 I'm afraid it's worse than that Dobbs, the *majority* of the peloton doped in the Lance years, not just 13th place down. I followed the sport closely in those years, and based on what we know today about teamwide organized doping programs & the clientele lists of the sport's top doping doctors, there were no credibly "clean" riders who finished anywhere near the top 30 prior to operation Puerto.

 So a joke at the expense of our skinny colleagues isn't really out of order?
I've no idea why the average roadie gets offended anyway, they are as far removed from the TDF as I am from the DH WC!

 For the record, I'm not a "roadie," I'm a cyclist. Been riding dirt since before there were MTBs, but I'm not going to pigeon-hole myself as a dirtie either.
Second, no one who actually understands road cycling gets personally "offended" by doping jokes, most are just sick to death of knee-jerk insinuations that come from every ignoramus who hears you occasionally ride a bike on pavement: it's like being in the housing & insurance sector and hearing the same AIG joke being flogged for the millionth time.
As for performance enhancement, it is incredibly naive to think that DH has any less going on than any other sport. HGH, cortisone, & steroids will benefit a downhiller just as much as they do a downhill skier or track & field sprinter.
Skill is what makes you a pro, but as Claudio said during the Lourdes broadcast, to run your suspension harder than other pros like Gwinn does, you have to be strong enough to hold on.
I'm not pointing a finger at any rider in particular, just underlining the sober fact that modern drugs are *extremely* effective, and the science of avoiding detection is always one step ahead of the testers. At the highest level of sport, PEDs provide an incremental boost that makes a winning difference, that's why they're used.

 I haven't suggested that there's no doping in mountain biking, let alone DH so I have no idea where you got that from. I don't understand roadying, and I have no interest in doing so. I will continue to take the piss though, because I find it amusing. I mean no harm, or even offence. I haven't said anything spiteful or hurtful. I'd suggest that some tarmac riders should be a bit less precious.

 From my response, did you think I was offended? (I certainly wasn't at all - "hit dog hollers") I was actually replying to the "It's not about the bike" statement is all and my general observation, since I'm involved in both aspects - dirt and pavement. I threw in the synthetically enhanced bit since I most certainly don't belong in that category!

 What do you think of the astana deal joe?

 Nah, it's just like the old days of works bikes in motocross. The bikes out now are awesome, the pros just get custom, more awesomer stuff. They do deserve it though. The amount of skill it takes to do this at their speeds is insane.

 there should be homologation rules.

spesh should produce 10 frames with the mods.

they can charge whatever they want for the frame (20k+), but as long as its homologated thatd be alright.

 What good would a rule like that be? Would it do anything other than stifle innovation?

 no, it *might* help take away any perceived performance advantage a large factory team might have over any smaller teams.

not that there is one, but if it gets bad it might help.

 There is a rule like that in road racing i believe, any frame that is ridden has to be available for sale

 And look what that's done to road biking. It's sooooo boring to watch..until they crash.

 i wouldnt say its the bikes that have made road racing boring.

personally i enjoy road racing, but the races are endurance races, not sprints. its like rallye vs 24 hrs lemans, two totally different styles of racing, but each enjoyable for their own reasons.

all out razors edge craziness vs unflappable consistency as well as mechancal and human endurance.

i just think it puts smaller teams at at least a slight disadvantage if larger teams can constantly modify their bikes to give them a competitive advantage.

also did anyone notice the raceface crank booties on this years bike? interesting. also it looks like the whole rear triangle has had some kind of layup mods done to it, not just the front triangle.

 @jaycubzz I agree with You. Homologation rule works in many smaller car racing series and it helps a lot with equalizing the chances of grassroot teams, racing on cars "from the shop" against big tuning firms. Might do the same in downhill, IF it ever comes to be needed.

 you guys realize that homologated sports cars have much bigger changes between whats raced and sold than what we're looking at here right? Bonding extra carbon patches onto a production frame isn't rocket science, not exactly expensive or inaccessible either.

 "Homologation" rules wouldn't impact MTB racing any more than they do the road - which is to say not at all.
The UCI rule that all gear used by road pros must be production model is largely ignored by the industry as it is written so vaguely that it is toothless. The rule states that a model must be "available" to the public, but does not place any cost or quantity constraints. The British National team, which runs what amounts to a Formula-1-level factory-works program, "complies" with the rule by offering their track & TT bikes for sale to the public on a skeleton website which says they make no guarantees about lead times, availability, & only mentions price to suggest that if you have to ask, you can't afford it. Even the biggest mass-manufacturers are constantly doing special layups or even creating brand new, $50,000 molds to build just a single frame for a star like Tom Boonen that no amount of consumer money can buy.

 Even if the rules were written with language that gave them teeth, they wouldn't do much to level the playing the field in cycling. Unsurprisingly, just like in baseball or soccer, it's payroll that establishes the pecking order on the road: a team with a $15+ million dollar budget can go out and buy a half-dozen of the biggest names in the sport, & an army of top-tier lieutenants to ride for them. For every team in the World Tour with a sky-is-the-limit budget, there are 5 teams whose budget is 50-60% of that. The smaller team may have a top-tier bike sponsor, but if they can only afford to buy winning riders, it won't matter.

 It would be interesting to see the day when UCI imposes rules on how DH bikes should be built. I think they would not hire a true bike engineer, they'd hire someone like Protour as an expert to set the rules.

 edit: ...if they can *not* afford to buy winning riders...

Punchline for Downhill? The sport is so heavily predicated on athletic talent that, fortunately, even a cost-is-no-object Formula-1 style R&D program would not give any one team an insurmountable edge. Imagine, however, if someone came & hired Gwin, Atherton, Bryceland, Brosnan, Hill & Mulaly to ride for a single team at *double* their current salary? This is not an uncommon occurrence in road cycling.

 Bullseye Waki! That's *exactly* what the UCI has been doing for the last half-century: some petty bureaucrat with zero industry experience has sat in an office & just reacted to ban tech developments his bosses deem to be at "philosophical" odds with the UCI party line.
Cookson, the new UCI president elected last year, actually took the "radical" step of implementing a new rules committee that actually incorporates industry engineers. They still have yet to revamp decades of reactionary regulation, but it's at least a signal that reason has been introduced into what used to be a strictly dogma-driven equation.

 I just hope that our sport will not evolve like Formula 1 with it's crazy customization efforts and homologation rules.

 Yup. The comments usually fall into a few (non-mutually exclusive) categories:

1. Authoritative reviews of how a product which isn't even out yet totally sucks!

2. Pointing out how the new product/technology is exactly like something superficially similar that came out in 1987

3. Conspiracy theories about how the new item/design/technology is just a marketing ploy to make current bikes obsolete.

4. Complaints about how much new bike stuff costs.

5. Complaints about how the author of the article is unethically pandering to company who produced the product.

 I am surprised that you enter this site at all then, you must like pain if it irritates you so deeply to read comments here, oh yea baby. Or do you just boost your ego by telling others how stupid they are in a polite manner?

Look! I am meta-meta-trolling - I complain on people complaining on people who tend to complain on products. Interstellar inception that is!

 Mostly It's an ego boost for me to pick on kids, Waki.

But really, I'm bummed that you feel the need to chime in all the time.

Look! I'm meta-meta-meta trolling. WHERE DOES IT STOP!?

 I wasn't serious troll meth is a hell of a drug

 I know! Party on you crazy rabble rouser.

 The mods look clearance was added for the can on the air shock. I'd guess a chunk of the frame was cutout, and maybe shifted over and a tube of carbon was patched in place. At least that's the way I'd do it. In a small area like that an extra 100 -200 grams of carbon goes a long way.

 You could be right, it would be interesting to see a close up photo of Troy's bike as he was running a RS coil shock.

 It's not for clearance, but I can see how it might look that way. Air cans and coil springs take up about the same real estate.

 I'm inclined to think Jason knows what he's writing about. There are some irregular bulges on the top and down tubes, along with the bulge immediately visible. My second guess is a frame with some custom geometry. Maybe a longer top tube or reach? A couple frame sizes patched together? With a bunch of reinforcement on overlapping pieces.

The chain stay has some hand written notes on it as well. Maybe it's an entire frame with custom longer geometry. That track looked really steep. Gwin even said there weren't many turns on it. For the old Mt Snow, Vermont course, I'd hear stories of a few places making a bike just for that course.

 The S3 "style specific sizing" geometry was built exactly around Troy and Aaron's specifications so there would be need to create custom sizes for them as you suggest.

 "...no need..."

 Was this the first WC win with an air schock?

 Nope, it is the second time an air shock equipped bike has taken a world cup win, the first time was when Remi Thirion won Andorra 2013. His bike had a Bos Void.

 Incredible memory @TFBikes ^^^!

 Weren't the early Yeti's and Cannondale bikes using air shocks? Back the Kamikaze, Big Bear, Norba heyday.

 I pretty sure they floated on pot smoke and fish bone necklaces

 I agree dude!

 *the arm-chair

 An ellipsis has three dots...

 At 3 in the morning I really couldn't care to be totally honest.

 I totally agree with you, but on this post. Nahh, racers need the slightest edge to help them win. Every second counts (and in some cases milliseconds also) and they need the most up to date stuff to help them get an edge over everybody else.

For us mortals however, we DO NOT need these fine adjustments, which is why I think all these new "standards" that have wormed their way out of the racing circuit should f*cking stay there. It drives prices up and it makes us constantly have to upgrade. It f*cks me off the state of the MTB scene these days, there's new standards coming in all the time we don't need, it's almost as if the big brands want to con you out of all your money, "you need this new mech, you need this cassette, oh what's that? Mid range product? NO! YOU NEED THE HIGH END CARBON FIBER VERSION OF THAT!!"

 As Gwin proved in his run today, he doesn't use brakes. :-)

 They are heavier... very slightly.

 It was mentioned in a previous article

 I mean how the eyelet on the link side is aligned in a way that avoids using a typical bushing, not the actual link.

Looked in the other article, but it isn't mentioned: www.pinkbike.com/u/mikelevy/blog/aaron-gwins-modified-specialized-demo.html

 That's the same as the production bikes have been for years.

 "Chamberlain actually employed the eccentric flip-flop chip from the old Demo" - There ya go. From the article you linked.

 you ever ride one?

 3.and was not a fan.its ok not to like something right?

 Oh ya, was just wondering. you hear a lot of people say that they don't like something, but they've never had any experience with what they're talking about. This is especially common when talking about frames

 Demo probably one of the best bikes for that Lourdes track - demo always seemed to excel the steeper and nastier the track got

which was a valid criticism for the Demo as a choice for many amateur riders:-not going fast enough, on gnarly enough tracks to make the bike come alive.

 Integrated Hydration Pack ! The future is now !!

 What's happening PB? No air spring rants in the comment section????

 True!! C'mon pinkbike

 he's using an air shock because it's lighter weight than a coil and no worse in terms of performance plus he rides for fox so they will want him to prototype their new air shock which is the one he's using

 Avid Code

 Code caliper with Guide lever

 Actually it's standard Avid Codes without Guide levers, see here:
cdn1.coresites.mpora.com/dirt_new/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Aaron-Gwin-is-looking-fast-and-characteristically-cool.-The-American-was-taking-his-time-to-study-every-line-yesterday-and-were-sure-that-hell-be-a-contender-for-the-win.-1020x680.jpg

 You're right, that's on Troy's bike I saw this set up so I tought Gwin used the same, my bad.

 Entirely possible, but how could you tell from that picture?

 There are internal tubes that run the full length, so you will find that routing the cables through is quite easy.

 You still have to disconnect and reconnect the caliper/derailleur/lever/shifter, and route the thing in and out of the frame, multiple times by the looks...

 Yes, you have to disconnect the brake line at the lever, and push it through from the back. There is also an option to run it externally if you don't want to do that, or you are in a hurry.