Rider: Mike Kazimer. Photo: Irmo Keizer / Shimano
Shimano chose Riva del Garda, Italy, as the location for the official hands-on unveiling of their new Deore XT M8000 gruppo, timing the launch to overlap with the
Riva Bike Festival, a massive gathering of mountain bikers from all over Europe that arrive in the picturesque town for a weekend of riding, racing, and partying.
The biggest news about the new group is that it's designed around an eleven speed cassette, with an 11-40 tooth option that's intended to be run with one or two rings up front, and an 11-42 cassette that's meant to be run as as single ring setup. Many of the refinements found on the M8000 group have trickled down from the
XTR M9000 components that were released last year, and save for the weight difference between the two groups, Deore XT's performance is closer to that of its more expensive sibling than ever before.
Front DerailleurI'm firmly convinced that front derailleurs aren't necessary for the vast majority of riders out there, especially considering how wide of a range is provided by an 11-42 tooth cassette, but for those that haven't yet seen the light, Shimano's Side Swing front derailleur design makes front shifting quicker and more positive than ever. This design sees the derailleur cable routed along the down tube, rather than along the seat tube, with the spring for the derailleur oriented vertically, almost like a door hinge, which helps decrease the amount of room the derailleur takes up. The cage itself is shorter as well, providing more tire clearance for 29ers and bikes with short chainstays. There's even a triple chainring option, for rider that feel like having 33 gear options. A 22 tooth chainring with a 40 tooth sprocket in the rear should make nearly vertical trails scalable, providing you don't tip over from the slow speed spinning.
Rear DerailleurIn order to ensure smooth shifts and maintain chain retention across the entirety of the 11 speed cassette, the XT rear derailleur's slant angle has been reduced, which helps keep the upper pulley wheel close to the cassette across the full gear range. Riders that choose to run a single ring up front gain access to Shimano's new 11-42 tooth cassette, creating an even wider gear spread than what is currently available with the XTR 11-40 tooth option.
The derailleur's clutch mechanism is now externally adjustable with an allen key, a feature that allows riders to easily fine tune the amount of retention to their liking. For instance, cross-country riders on smoother terrain may prefer to reduce the tension in order to have a lighter feel at the shift lever, while all-mountain riders or enduro racers may run it tighter in order to increase the amount of chain retention. The same goes for riders who are still running a front derailleur versus those with 1x setups, with the front derailleur crowd not needing as much clutch tension as the single ringers.
1x OptionThe single ring version of the XT drivetrain uses what Shimano calls Dynamic Chain Engagement (DCE), a tooth shape that supposedly results in a 150% increase in chain retention. This isn't a narrow-wide design like the one employed by SRAM and a host of other chain ring manufacturers – it relies on a more squared off tooth profile that's slightly hooked in order to keep the chain from popping off in rough terrain. The rings are available in 30, 32, and 34 tooth versions (the lack of a spiderless crank option prevents smaller rings from being offered).
Shifters
The XT shifter paddles are now slightly longer and more textured, with dimples on the thumb lever used for upshifts and vertical ridges on the smaller downshift trigger intended to provide a more positive surface to reach for in wet conditions. Like the previous version, they feature Multi-Release shifting, which allows riders to downshift two gears with one push of the lever.
Brakes
To go along with their sleek black color option, the XT brakes now get the dimpled braked levers previously found only on XTR, along with a revised master cylinder design that gives them an even more low profile look, as well as a lighter weight. The handlebar clamp has shrunk in size as well, making it easier to have the brakes play nicely with a dropper post remote, or another brand's shifter.
Ride ReportThe demo bikes on hand for the launch were a little different than what I'm used to, with 100mm stems, narrow handlebars, narrow tires and not a dropper post in sight. Not exactly a setup that's conducive to hard charging, but as they say, “When in Rome...”
It was the single ring configuration that intrigued me the most, but unfortunately there was only a display model available, so the questions about the design's effectiveness will have to wait until we can get our hands on a production version later in the summer. That being said, the XT front derailleur worked flawlessly, providing very quick, positive shifts between the two rings. It was extremely quiet as well, since there's enough room between the chain and the derailleur cage to prevent it from making any annoying clanks or rattles. That, combined with the clutch equipped derailleur helps make for a drivetrain that calls minimal attention to itself out on the trail. At the rear of the bike, the derailleur exhibited the performance that the Deore XT group has traditionally been known for – it simply works, consistently traveling the entire span of the cassette without issue. The shift lever's new ergonomics are as intuitive as ever, and with an eleven speed cassette the ability to drop two gears at a time is especially appreciated.
I've had a very positive experience with the current generation of XT brakes, but I found that the M8000 brakes had an inconsistent lever feel on extended downhill portions of the trail, occasionally pumping up during sustained braking. More than likely an errant air bubble was the culprit, and a quick bleed would have fixed this, but in any case I'd need additional time on them to offer a final verdict.
Pinkbike's Take: | Shimano's new XT group is a welcome addition to the marketplace, one that adds another relatively affordable eleven speed option to the mix. The fact that the cassette works on a standard freehub body is a plus, saving riders the cost of purchasing a new driver in order to upgrade from a 9 or 10 speed drivetrain. While it may not have the 10 tooth cog that SRAM offers, for many riders it's the easier climbing gear that's most important, not the ability to keep up with road bikers on a paved descent. We'll have a full group on hand for testing as soon as one is available, at which point we'll be sure to give it a thorough thrashing and offer a comprehensive evaluation. - Mike Kazimer |
www.shimano.com,
@shimano
As far as gear ratios, 28-48 is only .2 higher than 22-36, and 28-10 is only .2 smaller than 32-11. It is .9 smaller than 36-11 though, so it depends on how your double is setup.
Both of these options are better than the 10 speed 1x that I have now which is cool.
Its funny, when XTR was released everyone was bitchin about no 42t option. Now the Sram fanboys are moaning about no 10t when Shimano has provided a group that doesn't require upgrades to your hub, has the range where riders actually need it, is less expensive (XX1 and X01 cassettes are outrageously expensive by comparison), and gives riders the flexibility to change to 2x or 3x without a wholesale change of the drivetrain.
Rule # 5 Pick a drivetrain, then be a dick about it!
The reason I prefer shimano is from my experience it's more durable and it's also cheaper. Performance wise they are very similar.
Personally, my priority is having a gear that is equal to or harder than 36/11 as well as being able to climb up super steep long hills without burning out all my energy.
I always look for four thins in bike products - cost, durability, weight and performance. These priorities change depending on what in buying specifically but for drive chains id prefer something cheaper and better quality with a good performance and I find that shimano is cheaper and better quality for my riding (mainly dh) and also just as good as sram. Having said that I use sram x9 2x10 on my enduro bike which I've slammed pretty hard and haven't needed to do too many adjustments.
I think the best part about having two major drivechain manufacturers is that the competition is always direct so as consumers we get cheaper, better products.
The masses are right, M8000 is going to be huge. Reasonably priced 11-42t that works with ANYTHING. Home run.
I know for sure that where I live and the type of riding I do I would not be able to have anything easier than 36/11 but a single 36t ring wouldn't get me up everything I ride either.
Also your argument is only valid assuming everyone needs a 1x set up. For now, I'm relatively happy with 2x10 because like you say, I can't justify the money for a 32/10-42 1x11 set up even though I'd like to. My front mech is the Bain of my life! In all my races this year I have dropped my chain into the lower ring even set up so that the click down only just changes the gear. To resolve it I have to set the hanger over the top ring to act as a chain guide and then change it back for normal riding.
I just don't feel like I could manage a 36/11-42 set up where I live. That 10t for me is far more than just a tooth. It's a massive difference in effort needed compared to teeth at the front.
Also, I can't even count at this point how many bikes i've built and owned over the past 20 years, and i've NEVER had significant issues with a front derailleur. For me, there's nothing easier to set up on a bike. Hell, removing a QR9 wheel from "safety" dropouts is harder! I couldn't tell you the last time I dropped a chain while downshifting the front rings. I know it's happened but it was like forever ago.
Many have a convertible hub, so that is cheaper.
Many, like me, are already considering a new hub, so XD vs standard is a no cost issue.
And many more are buying a complete bike, so XD vs standard is a non issue.
For those cases, the only difference is cassette price.
See?
Mountains. I'm riding real mountains that stick a vertical mile above the surrounding landscape.
I ride singlespeed most of the time, but 50 miles and 10,000' of climbing will bring out the 2x machine.
Nobody is going to ride up this beast on a 1x anything: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandia_Mountains#/media/File:Sandia_Crest,_Albuquerque_PP_AB.JPG
But the whole point is that when you buy a new bike, it could come with the GX and not be any premium over a 2 by 10
Also, while your point about new bikes is true, consider that now that same bike could come with M8000 and be cheaper, since the OEM can use a cheapo wheelset.
So, if you are already buying a new bike it is no issue if you are already considering buying a quality bike. There really should be no reason an XD hub from Shimano wouldn't also be $50 like their non XD. So if Shimano just sucked it up and admitted SRAM beat them to something, we could move on.
Really all i'm saying here is m8000 is going to be huge, and assuming that SLX follows suit, it's going to be SUPER huge.
Went to shimano xt/xtr 2x10 and am happy as a clam. i'll keep that setup on my xc bike.
Im going to do shimano 1x11 to get my pig of a trailbike closer to 28lbs. I don't ride it on the road like i do with the xc bike, so i'm not so concerned with the loss of top end. The cost of not buying an xd driver and getting shimano quality shifts is worth it in my mind.
I agree this XT is great as it brings 1x11 to the affordable market, but at XT level I expect at 10-42 to at least be an option. Maybe when SLX comes out, XT can go 10-42 and SLX stays 11-42.
Having to mod stuff is one of the things making me not convert to 1x10 and why this is a consideration. But why upgrade a full system to 1x11 when 10-speed cassettes can easily have that range and options like Praxis are coming out at the same price? SRAM makes sense, wider range than you can get with 1x10.
I like the cheapness this 1x11 is compared to SRAM Xs. But 11-42 maybe should have been left to SLX with XT having something to offer over current 10-speeds.
My whole point in all of this is simply that SRAMs price is far too steep for a one tooth range improvement. It's ridiculous that the MTB community bitches about all the new wheel standards but goes hog wild for a $1000 groupset that requires a $500 rear wheel just to offer ONE TOOTH.
Despite the thousands of us that have convertible wheelsets, there are MILLIONS who do not. M8000 will be, most likely, their only 1x11 option. They won't care in the slightest...heck they probably won't even realize...that they could have one more tooth of range on their cassette.
www.oneupcomponents.com/collections/all-products/products/xtr-nw-rings
....probably should have patented that first.
I don't know how much clearer we can make this point: no one wants a front derailleur unless its absolutely necessary to their riding.
Climb wise, I know what you mean. My 34/42 is an a*shole on steep climbs.
Also, stating that 10 tooth is what makes or breaks the 1-by setup is just stupid. You loose 9.1% top speed... So if you were able to hit 30 mph on a 10 tooth, you're going to hit 27.3mph on a 11 tooth cog. Seriously, who cares...
Why would someone take the front derailleur off of their 2x setup and ride through rock gardens?
@dfiler: well, that's another way to look at it, but the outcome is the same: you're gaining 9.1% more range. Downside: New freehub, new (stupidly expensive) cassette, new (expensive) derailleur... The reason why 1x10 is so popular is because to get the benefits, you don't really need the 10 tooth. You can get by with a 11 tooth just as well, you're just going to compromise some range.
Cheapest 11-speed SRAM derailleur: 160€. Same money as an XTR M9000, 10-spd XTR is 130€, XT 50€.
Cheapest 11-speed SRAM cassette: 220€. XTR M9000: 190€. XT 10-Speed: 41€+60€ for a 42t cog
So even the cheapest SRAM 11-Speed parts cost as much as Shimanos most expensive sets. Rewasonable, but still high-end 10 Speed costs half as much as SRAM 11spd.
Feel free to continue the hate fest though.
Having a replaceable spider is awesome on a 2x set-up, I scrapped a couple cranks due to spider tweakage, but when you swap to a 1x set-up, it should be spiderless IMHO. Even with a stainless chainring, it could be pinned to an aluminum center like a brake rotor.
Full X1 1x11 upgrade would cost $900.
XD doesn't just add $80-100 for the driver, but an additional $150 for the cassette as well. Every time you replace it.
The SRAM GX XG-1150 11 speed cassette is MSRP: $144 USD, while the XT M8000 11 speed is $139.99.
The GX price is more comparable, but I'm not sure the quality is. I don't have the experience to know. Nor do we know the weight difference.
Nevermind that the VAST majority of riders are still riding on non-convertible Shimano or Shimano-clone cup-and-cone hubs. For all those people, the ONE FLIPPIN TOOTH increase of GX/X1/X01/XX1 now starts at $500, and that doesn't include any drivetrain parts. So those folks are faced with the choice of XT at $600, or X1 for $1500. Or they can accept a lesser, heavier drivetrain in GX (which wasn't meant to compete with XT, thats what X1 is for), for only $1100.
11-42 will very quickly overtake 10-42.
That's irrelevant however, as if you want an XD-equipped hub of any quality, you are paying $200 minimum. If you simply need a reliable standard hub, the XT is perfect at $50. But i'm talking from the point of view of the vast majority of buyers out there who are simply looking for the cheapest way to equip a reliable bike. This means that to them, an XD hub is four times the price of a standard hub.
The majority of riders are using whatever wheels came on their bike. so for many of them , they're on 10(or even 9) until they buy a new bike. Their new bike will come with whatever hub standard is appropriate for their drivetrain, & almost certainly one that can be converted, these days(or the shop will offer them trade value.) From a shop perspective, upselling them to a model with 1x & an XD compatible cassette is a no brainer.
You are right about new bikes, but remember that convertible hubs are pricey, and as such will only be spec'd on higher end builds. The vast majority of riders are riding bikes under $3k with cheap wheelsets. An OEM cannot put X1 or GX on a cheap wheelset, but it can put M8000 on a cheap wheelset. This opens the doors for XT to trickle down the line a bit.
If you think the factory houses in taiwan don't have a XD drivers in their catalog waiting for some manufacturer to ask for it, you're nuts. Hub availability problems, aren't, if you're Trek, Specialized, or Giant.
I did say that if you're passionate about building bikes, you should know how to rebuild a cup and cone hub...cause it's old. Without question. If you cannot handle the simple process of disassembling the hub, cleaning, greasing, re-assembling and tensioning, then you should not be touching sealed cartridge bearings either because you can do far more expensive damage there. Just because you are scared of it doesn't mean that everyone else needs to be too. Second, it's clear you have not replaced many sealed cartridge bearings in your time. Believe me, i'm not the slightest bit intimidated by them and actually DO have the $200 puller set, because of how many times I have to replace cartridge bearings (not just in hubs, mind you).
Your second paragraph has less than nothing to do with anything I said. Nothing I said had anything to do with hub availability, problem or otherwise.
You said an OEM can't put GX on a cheap wheelset, because convertible hubs are expensive. You also complained that there aren't any cheap ones. How is that not commentary on hub the availability? If an OEM wants to put GX on a cheap wheelset, all they have to do is call up novatec & ask for a XD model of one of their cheap hubs. I guarantee they have it drawn up already, & only haven't produced it due to little demand for a cheap, XD compatible hub, since, until now, the groupset was too expensive to put on cheap bikes.
As for the second matter of "hub availability"...remember XD tech carries licensing fees while the old "Shimano" freehub does not (patent expired long ago). You will not see truly entry-level XD hubs for some time.
Sram really has a huge advantage with the X-Dome cassette. It is much lighter and a feat of engineering compared to Shimano XTR, who's still sticking with the old school "individual cogs pinned to a carrier" design. Now that Sram is releasing pinned versions of the cassette, we're going to see OEM prices drop significantly, and although the pinned versions will be heavier, they will probably still be competitive with XTR's weight. If Shimano sticks with their standard freehub body, the only way they can compete on gear range is by adding a 44t cog, which is going to be even heavier.
GX1 + XDDriver will be cheaper for OEM than XT + standard, and GX1 will have more gear range and be the same weight or lighter. I imagine the OEM market is many times the size of the "I want to upgrade my drivetrain, but not my freehub/hub" market, and I think Shimano has made a major error in going after a seemingly small minority of riders. @TheRaven Giant for one is already speccing XDDriver freehubs on relatively low-end OEM Formula hubs, and I imagine other brands are doing the same.
I think Shimano has let the 1x market pass by because they're betting their R+D resources heavily on electronic shifting instead, but that doesn't seem to be what the majority of mtb riders want.
GX is NOT going to be lighter than XT. The GX cassette is almost 400g, The M8000 cassette will be 340-350g max. And how about the rest of the group? The XT cranks will be lighter than X1 for example (roughly 680g for XT vs 750g for X1). XT will be competitive with X1 in weight, and cheaper in price.
Surprised somebody hasn't fired up a CNC machine and just made one, they would make a killing. Would buy.
Not that other cultures & companies don't do the same(Campagnolo, anyone?) but it seems to be especially prevalent in Japan.
So you're telling me that if the standards board selected XD as the new standard, Shimano would just close up shop?
Really?!
I think we've got a SRAM fanboy here.
Also, OH PLEASE. SRAM fanboy? I'm not the one spreading misinformation, like "XD requires a licensing fee." In fact, you can find multiple examples, going back quite a long time, including in this article, that I'll be buying XT, next time I buy a drivetrain. Multi-release is a game changer, & I won't spend money on another drivetrain without it. Heck, I've got a perfectly good SRAM drivetrain on my second bike that I've thought about taking off, just because I want multi-release. That said, when I go 11 speed, I'll be putting a 10-42 cassette on that bike, not an 11-42, because XD is something that SRAM got right.
The whole point of the my theoretical "standards board" is that "doing their own thing" would not be an option as there would be no compatible bikes out there, they would all require the "established standard". So Shimano's options would be to accept the standard, or concede the market. Again, it's not a viable idea and was never meant to be. I was just making a point.
Cost/specs/weight are the only unknowns when a new Shimano product comes out.
Is that different elsewhere?
2.) High torque is in the big cogs, not the small ones
3.) 10T is where the magic comes from. A 32T ring with a 10T cog gives you the same top end as a 35T chainring with 11T cog so you get to keep your low end too.
I have a hard time any of you are maintaining speeds that are a workout (90+ rpm/23+mph) on a road bike on a mountain bike with knobby tires in a non-aero position.
I'm just saying that "I can't ride on the road with a 1x setup" is an ignorant statement. You can make it work if you want to, easily.
Shimano is totally wrong when they're still supplying 2x/3x systems. Obviously.
for anyone curious about what these coots are talking about. the video halfway down the page is crazy
Hang on, I could use a 30 chainring and a 50-tooth cog... oh...
Oh well, looks like we got lots of suckers here. That should drive down the clearance prices on 10-speed XT!
I still don't understand why Shimano is getting praise for being "cheaper" when if you want cheaper just by the current XT and a one-up 42T cog. Makes a better drivetrain, like you said.
Do you think I could fit 8 of an 11spd cassette onto a zero dish rear hub? Now that would be good...
To your question...I'd be curious to hear if it works.
www.oneupcomponents.com/products/r-a-d-cage
- A front derailleur that sucks a lot less (everyone reviewing this kit tells the same story on smooth shifting - plus it no longer limits frame/suspension design as much).
- A 1x11 setup that delivers roughly 90% of SRAM's 1x11 range, without the need for an XD driver, at lower cost, and if it lives up to the usual Shimano RD goodness, nice performance.
So there's choice now - which is great.
Ironically, the front derailleur improvements may have been at least partially a result in what they learned in making electronic shifting work well. And so an innovation I absolutely don't care about (electronic shifting - seems more trouble than it's worth in MTB to me, from a cost/benefit perspective) may have just made manual 2x drive trains much more attractive. I still like 1x for where and how I ride - but hey, again, choice is good.
I've only had a front mech for a couple of months in the last 10 years and it was rubbish so I went back to a 1x. 8/9/10/11 whatever, you get used to it....
But I'm sure most would agree the XT brakes have been the bench mark for functionality and value since the last ones hit the market. Now reports of the new ones suffering pump. Yes, could be air bubbles but this wasn't the only report of pump-up and surely the test bikes would have been bled properly!?
Anyone else ridden the M9000?
- Still pushing 2x and 3x like it's 90s: yeah, choice is great, but to me this is an indication of either loosing contact with the changing MTB landscape or focusing on XC/marathon bikes
- Indication of the latter is the fact that they only had XC bikes on display at Riva Bike Festival equipped with the M8000 groupset. 1x doesn't seem to be a priority to them.
- No XTR level 11-42 cassette, but now XT has one?. It's ackward that their top-of-the-line 1x groupset is hugely lacking in this respect.
My prediction is that the M8000 1x groupset is NOT going to be big hit in 2016 trail and enduro bikes. SRAM has a strong offerings across all price ranges with XG, X1, and XX1 groupsets. M8000 is just too little and too late.
www.oneupcomponents.com/collections/all-products/products/45t-sprocket-18t
Yep, probably an XT with oneup 34x11-45 in my future...
1x without angled chains, no derailleurs to get ripped off, and gears that last a lifetime with minimal maintenance.
Electronic and/or clutched shifting could bring shift times to a tenth that of derailleurs.
Widespread adoption would reduce costs, weight, and bring money to develop new ways to improve the efficiency.
And remove the drivetrain monopoly.
If he got a big enough single ring to not spin out easily on the road (36, 38, etc), he would be screwed for steep trail climbing.
If I got a 11-42 or 11-45 it would be even less necessary.
What you meant to say was for people who ride to the trail-head a tiny percentage think they still need a 2x. For the massive majority of those that ride to the trail-head and everyone else in the mountain biking community including journalists the front derailleur needed to die 2-3 years ago as it lingering around is hampering newer frame design geometry, and is an ugly piece of noisy low-tech garbage.
The front derailleur hate is unfounded in my opinion. Sure I've ridden crappy FD setups that grinded and missed etc. But I have the current (now old) Shimano 2x stuff and have never had a problem. It shifts quickly and precisely. It's cheaper than 1x, not much heavier, and has better range. For me it still makes more sense. I like the direction 1x is heading, but for me I'm too frugal. I might try a 1x10 setup with a standard cassette, but I don't see the point in adding weight and expense to the rear cassette just to avoid using a front derailleur when mine works just fine...
The XTR 11-40T weighs 331g. Going from previous XT versions, they usually weigh about 20% more due to the alloy spider (compared to CFRP on the XTR). Therefore it should be something like 390-400g. That is the biggest issue to me- the fact that the new XT cassette will be weighing the same as an old Deore cassette. Wouldn't surpise me to see the total groupset weights going up a bit...