You probably don't know who Daniel Berger is. As a man who prefers to keep a low profile, working for a company who keep a fairly low marketing presence, there is little reason why you would. Yet in many ways, he is one of the most influential people anywhere in mountain biking when it comes time to talk wheels. As head of product at DT Swiss, it is his responsibility to decide which products they develop and which they don't. If that doesn't sound too impressive you need to put DT Swiss as a company into context - they are arguably the most important wheelmaker in mountain biking. Founded as a spoke maker, their spokes are ubiquitous throughout cycling. Their high-end hubs are amongst the finest money can buy and they provide the OE hubs and hub internals for giants like Trek and Specialized. In recent years, they have started taking rims more seriously too, and their recent racing heritage would make a strong case for them being the finest in our sport, regardless of whether you race XCO or downhill. So when you put it like that, the man who decides what direction a company like that heads in is kinda important. We sat down with him at DT Swiss' headquarters in Biel, Switzerland to talk about diameters, widths and development.






Did you start with DT early on?

When I started with DT we were just 28 people and we just had spokes and nipples. When I would take my bag with me to talk about them I had three or four different types of spokes. I had to talk about them for maybe an hour, explaining threads, the J-bend, double-butting, cold-forging, the whole story - why our spokes were so different to other spokes. Today you see our product range and it's enormous, honestly speaking.


Didn't DT buy UK suspension manufacturer Pace at one point?

Yeah - 2006. I took over product management, the whole team, about four or five years ago, and also the marketing crew. So I am a member of the board and responsible for all products, product planning and marketing. That's my job.


That's a lot of progression!

Yeah, it's incredible. Today we have 42,000 SKUs, article numbers, and we will launch some new wheel lines in the Springtime. Now with the standards, or so-called standards, or whatever they are, with the two wheels sizes, 27" and 29", with the different inner widths, different categories - from cross-country, trail, all-mountain to enduro, with Boost, non-Boost, six bolt, Centrelock, 100mm front, 110mm Boost... When I now open up new products and try to do all the combinations I have to open up 200 article numbers. So you can imagine the logistics of everything behind this...


I think as recently as maybe even 2011, for most people outside the industry mountain bikes had 26" wheels. At what point did DT realise that you had to start catering for multiple sizes?

It was a little bit before because we always develop products that conform to the ERTO standards. This is not about wheel size, this is about the dimension of the rim itself, the inner width, the hooks, everything. This is a norm, a hundred-year-old industry norm and there came new players, like No Tubes, who showed us more conservative companies like us how things could be done. At that time, it was a little bit dangerous, because developing outside these ERTO norms means you a little bit on your own with the product reliability. If somebody goes to court and says, "You are offering products that are not within these standard norms," well maybe then you have a problem. So then we had to check, we sat down together our lawyers to see if it was possible to go outside these norms. We talked to independent people, a Zart Verständiger (???) in Germany and they are experts certified by the government and if they say, "Yes, this is fine," then you don't have a problem to bring out this product. It would probably have been ok, but you have to consider what would happen if something happened in the US or wherever. So then we found out that we were too narrow, we were not state of the art anymore, so we had to go forwards. That's when we started with Spline ONE, for example. That was the time when we said, "We need 26, clearly, but 29" are coming too." Because we're working with the Scott-Odlo team with Nino Schurter, we knew they were heading straight for 27.5". So we decided we had to do everything. Because we do everything - rims, spokes, hubs - for us a wheel size is not such a big deal to make a wheel in 26", 27.5" or 29". In aluminium, it's not a big deal at all. In carbon, it's different because you have toolings, it's more complex.






For a company your size was it difficult to effectively triple your range overnight?

Absolutely. But what I can say is that all of our hubs are built around a modular system, so that means when we went from 135mm to 142mm it was a question of end caps, not hub shells. Now it is not the case because we go from 142mm to 148mm, which means a new hub shell. We invested heavily in logistics, in software like SAP just to control our fabrication in Switzerland, Taiwan the US and Poland. There won't be a problem for companies to make a good product, but offering this range of standards, of products, in certain quality and a certain quantity will be the challenge of the future. That is why we are such a strong partner right now because we invest - not just in innovation and development, but in logistics. It means we can build up what our clients need, we can deliver on time all these different standards.


On Pinkbike, we see a lot of negativity in the comments about this proliferation of so-called standards.

I understand these people, absolutely. It's not easy anymore. For the model year 2016-17, it will be even fancier because there will be new standards, or non-standards, or tyre sizes or whatever... For me, it's a problem because my job is to develop products that are coming in one, two, three years. I hope I don't to sound arrogant, but these guys are five years back, because if you bought a super-high-end 26" bike two years ago, you would expect that there will be parts around for it. It's the competition of the big guys to offer different solutions, maybe to sell a bit more, but it's also the innovation itself. It is not a bad thing that we are now going to wider tyres, wider rims, trying to have different wheel sizes. There is always of a little bit of a performance win. Sometimes it is small, absolutely. This industry is so driven by innovation, but also by marketing and competition because they guys want to sell more than the others and they want to try and offer different solutions. For us, as a big industry supplier, we are not in the position to say, "Ok, we are sticking with 26" because all the rest is not good. When you want something from us, buy 26." We helped them with solutions for their needs. That said, I have a certain understanding for these guys, especially for the dealers - what should they stock? They now need tubes and tyres in all different sizes - this is not easy, honestly speaking.


Do you think this will be a continuing trend, or will things come full-circle and come back to a more unified idea?

No. Today at DT we need to offer what we call parallel developments. If you look at the progression with 135mm, 142mm and now 148mm at the back. Now we can see clearly that 135mm is almost gone, but we still sell 135m because there are still frames offered for 135mm. Now they are going to 142mm and coming in parallel is 148mm. I'm pretty sure that in two years 142mm will be gone and they will go to 148mm.


So you think Boost is going to become a general thing?

Yes. In sales figures of wheel sizes, you can really see trends. These trends mean that a superlight hardtail will be 29", it won't be 27.5". But, trail and enduro bikes are going to 27.5" and 26" is clearly gone. I am pretty sure that in two years time, 80% of DT Swiss' wheels sold will be 27.5".


So 29" will return to being more of a niche product and 26" will be gone?

Yes. Where we are, and DT Swiss is always in the mid- to high-end, it is completely gone.


One of the most popular comments we see when a new wheelset is released is asking whether there is a 26" option. You always offered your Spline ONE style wheels in 26" - can you put some numbers to the breakdown of sizes sold?

For example, our Spline ONE wheels have been on the market for two years unchanged. In the beginning, we saw some 26" selling, but in the last year that has almost gone. There is a little bit of aftermarket remaining, but from our numbers, this is really tiny. You can really say that XR version with a 20mm width we sell 80% in 29". In the wider diameters, it is almost 100% 27.5".


So with your next generation of wheels, should people expect to see 26" gone?

There is no longer development in 26", no. However, in the meantime, the industry is now talking about 26"+, but this not coming for model year '16, maybe for '17 or '18. When we now go for new projects for '18 or '19 it is clear that we do not do any more 26" wheels. And, for example, I have a full range of wheels they will be in 27.5" and 29".






Boost is one of the things we see the most anger in the comments about, and I wonder if maybe part of this is down to the timing more than anything else - because there has been this huge shift in wheel size and almost immediately after people are being told that the axles are too narrow?

Absolutely. Boost started, for example, with Trek two years ago. I was at Trek and in December two years and that was the first we talked about this. They pushed hard and we helped them to develop solutions. The problem is that for those Americans, the new year starts at Sea Otter, so model year '17 will start at Sea Otter, they will bring products to the market. In the meantime, maybe someone is still buying a model year '15 bike and they see online or in a magazine these new products, but they just ordered this and then they see that... They ordered 142mm, thinking it was the newest, best, then learns that there is now 148mm and then they are getting a little bit angry. I was recently reading a comment from someone who ordered a Giant Ypsilon and they were told it would be late, July or whenever, and in the meantime, they showed the new bikes that are coming soon with other standards.


From an engineering standpoint, do you see the benefits of Boost?

Yes. We do. Everybody thinks that base idea of Boost was because of the big tyres, but that is not true. The intention was that if you go for a 29" wheel, because it has longer spokes, if the hub width stays the same the geometry is getting worse. If you go wider and have different angles for the spokes the wheels get stiffer and we can measure that. Then, somebody, I think WTB, started with 27.5"+ and this brings benefits. It is this development that brings it - if we stayed with 26" wheels, Boost is not needed, absolutely, but now what it is coming with all these new developments, you need new solutions to reach the same performance you had years ago with 26".


So if you can see the advantages of Boost, do you see this at the limit of this direction of development?

No, clearly not. We can talk again in two years...


The question that I think people will want answers to, is if all this change is coming, why does it come in all these little steps, why not just a big jump and be done with it?

That's correct, this is the kind of competition that exists amongst the big guys and they are so particular on millimetres. There is this incredible flow of thinking, of innovation. Our job at DT is always to judge, to decide if we do something or not because it is always an investment, but in the meantime, your turnover does not change. Sure, we as DT Swiss are growing, but it takes much more cost and effort to develop all those products. Life would be much easier for us if we were still just with 26" and two tyre widths.


What is the decision-making process from your side when one of these big brands comes to you with an idea?

It all depends. That is my responsibility to decide what we do and what we don't. It's not easy. We can tell the customer that from our point of view this doesn't make sense. In the end, we can say that if you really want to have this you can, but this means delivery time, this means costs, this means certain quantity or we won't do it. On the other hand, one of the keys to our success is our network of innovators who already have '18, '19 or '20 in their heads, so we can prepare for what is coming. This is one of DT Swiss' biggest strengths.






How do you keep a balance of staying at the cutting edge versus reliability?

It's not easy. For me it's a question of experience - we look at things and try and work out if it could be a trend, or shall we wait. In the meantime, we have such good internal controls that I can see that when we go for a new project I can see how much it will cost, what quantity we can do for what price, what our margin would be. The commercial part is extremely important as you can imagine. Sometimes we can say, "This we can do, because it will be ok for us," sometimes we can't. Mostly, in 80% of our projects, what we decided commercially was good, and technically good too. Maybe 20% weren't so good. An example of this is fat bikes. We developed a wheelset, alloy, very light. We had a German customer and they told us that if made that wheelset they would buy 1,000 wheelsets. So then we started working it out - with engineering, the new rim tool we needed. Is it worth doing it for the price? I was a little bit sceptical about fat bikes. We decided it was reasonable, so we did it. Now there is no more demand for that here in Europe, people are not willing to pay DT Swiss prices for a product on that level. In the US they want carbon, they want tubeless... We are in the middle and we realised we had an unsellable product. We made 1,000 sets for our clients, they were happy and they sold their bikes, but that was it. For me, it was clear that we should not invest further in the development of fatbike products because it's really niche. I have to concentrate on other things, like 30-35mm rims, maybe carbon rims.


I think it's fair to say DT Swiss have a mixed history with rims - some of your early products, like the EXC1550s or the 5.1 downhill rims are what can be best described as learning experiences for you.

When we began, at its simplest level, we put technology into a piece of wire. Then we went straight into hubs, and I think we are the strongest in the industry for high-end hubs. Then we started with rims and looking back at our early years it is a case of building experience - what kind of materials we would use, what kind of alloy? Now we have guys like Andreas, who are good riders and fantastic engineers, there are new kinds of production technologies, we can achieve the quality we have now. The same with carbon. When we started with carbon mountain bike rims we basically had a look in the catalogue and said, "Yeah, that's the rim we want." Now, we have built up a team of engineers for carbon and for alloy, now it is a step-by-step experience to get further with this.


Is it fair to say riding has become a much bigger part of your development process then?

Yeah, it's a balance. They are not paid by how many kilometres they ride, but whenever I recruit people, whether it's marketing, sales, graphics or product managers, they all have to put their ass on a saddle! 100%. Clearly they need their professional skills, but this is a big part of it too.


If you had a say in the development of wheels, what would you like to see as the next step?

I don't think there are major steps, tremendous things coming. For us, it is more about trends. Right now there are e-bikes, and you will see that e-mountain bikes will be huge. I know you guys maybe aren't into that... With my team, I started riding e-mountain bikes last February and now I just do e-mountain biking. I wanted to try this because I have to develop further products for this segment as it will bring us further growth. I have to say that this is the best thing that could have happened to me, I am 50-plus and I did 3,500km, 85,000m descending and now I know exactly what is going on with e-bikes. If I put 200+ watts, all the torque through it, understanding what it does on the freehub, on the materials, in this, you see much more about the quality of something than if it was ridden on a hardtail 29er by a 50kg rider. We are pushing into triathlon, going into downhill and DT Swiss will stay with plenty of teams and now new segments. This, for me, is more important than saying, "Yes, there will be a 1kg carbon wheel for downhill."