FOX Hits Back For 2014
FIRST IMPRESSIONS - FOX in Hood River, Oregon
2014 34 TALAS CTD Adj fork
Float X CTD Adj shock
Float X CTD Adj shock
WORDS Mike Levy
PHOTOS Colin Meagher
2014 Factory 34 TALAS CTD Adj Fork
• Intended use: trail/all-mountain
• Updated CTD damper with increased compression tune
• Completely redesigned TALAS travel adjust system
• Available travel/wheel size:
- 160mm of travel for 26” and 27.5” wheels
- 140mm for 29” wheels
• CTD Trail Adjust damper
- 3 on-the-trail CTD compression settings
- Additional 3 clicks of adjustability in Trail mode (soft, medium, firm)
• Kashima coated upper tubes
• 15QR thru-axle.
Our biggest question about the 2014 CTD forks boiled down to if FOX rectified their 2013-spec damper, which they have. The revised damper features ''increased compression damping of CTD system across the board'', meaning that riders can expect a more controlled feel to the fork in all three of the CTD settings. This should indicate that aggressive riders will be able to take advantage of the fork's more active 'Descend' mode without it diving too much. In fact, the 2014 CTD damper not only features heavier compression damping than last year's fork, but also more than the much liked 2012 RLC model. The heavier damping also applies to both the 'Trail' and 'Climb' settings, with the latter featuring a stiffer tune that limits movement during long, smooth climbs and hard out of the saddle efforts.
While it might be easy to lay into FOX for not coming out of the gate in 2013 with firmer levels of damping, it is key to remember that they must produce suspension for every type of rider, from those who are just starting to ride, to expert-level media hacks and racer types who hold a professional license. This is far from a simple task, and while we have been critical of FOX over the last year, we're excited to see that they have made changes for 2014. ''Our high performance suspension needs to be ridden on casual weekend rides yet handle the velocities and forces the expert/pro level rider needs. Finding the balance of a comfortable ride and fast riding fork is an ongoing challenge,'' Fitzsimmons says.
• Intended use: trail/all-mountain
• Updated CTD damper with increased compression tune
• Completely redesigned TALAS travel adjust system
• Available travel/wheel size:
- 160mm of travel for 26” and 27.5” wheels
- 140mm for 29” wheels
• CTD Trail Adjust damper
- 3 on-the-trail CTD compression settings
- Additional 3 clicks of adjustability in Trail mode (soft, medium, firm)
• Kashima coated upper tubes
• 15QR thru-axle.
Revised CTD Damper
Our biggest question about the 2014 CTD forks boiled down to if FOX rectified their 2013-spec damper, which they have. The revised damper features ''increased compression damping of CTD system across the board'', meaning that riders can expect a more controlled feel to the fork in all three of the CTD settings. This should indicate that aggressive riders will be able to take advantage of the fork's more active 'Descend' mode without it diving too much. In fact, the 2014 CTD damper not only features heavier compression damping than last year's fork, but also more than the much liked 2012 RLC model. The heavier damping also applies to both the 'Trail' and 'Climb' settings, with the latter featuring a stiffer tune that limits movement during long, smooth climbs and hard out of the saddle efforts.
While it might be easy to lay into FOX for not coming out of the gate in 2013 with firmer levels of damping, it is key to remember that they must produce suspension for every type of rider, from those who are just starting to ride, to expert-level media hacks and racer types who hold a professional license. This is far from a simple task, and while we have been critical of FOX over the last year, we're excited to see that they have made changes for 2014. ''Our high performance suspension needs to be ridden on casual weekend rides yet handle the velocities and forces the expert/pro level rider needs. Finding the balance of a comfortable ride and fast riding fork is an ongoing challenge,'' Fitzsimmons says.
 | We received feedback from our racers and enduro riders that although the 2013 fork is comfortable to ride, it was difficult to push hard when raced. Taking that information, we applied it to the 2014 forks and are very satisfied with the results. The production fork is what won the DH race at Sea Otter and is what our 2013 athletes are racing on. - Mark Fitzsimmons, Race Program Manager |
New Hydraulic TALAS
While all four of the previous iterations of TALAS utilized an air transfer system to raise and lower the fork in its travel, FOX has moved to a hydraulic system for 2014 that allows the fork's stroke to be tweaked in 5mm increments and 30mm of overall change. There are two reasons for the switch, with one of them being the new layout's use of just one dynamic seal as opposed to the older style's three. This should equate to a smoother stroke that requires less breakaway force. The other advantage is that the TALAS system is now decoupled from the fork's air spring, giving the engineers at FOX more flexibility when it comes to dialling in the exact spring curve that they want. This has also allowed them to have more
control of the fork's spring curve when it is lowered into its travel, with FOX telling us that the new TALAS forks can be ridden far more aggressively when set to shorter travel. ''With larger wheel sizes and higher front ends, the new TALAS can ride in short travel position for most riding conditions and go to long travel for steep descents,'' Fitzsimmons said. ''This is a new way of thinking for travel adjust.'' The new hydraulic TALAS system sits within the top few inches of the fork's spring-side cartridge, and FOX was happy to report that the entire cartridge can be retrofitted into older models for those riders who are looking to upgrade without purchasing an entirely new fork. While all four of the previous iterations of TALAS utilized an air transfer system to raise and lower the fork in its travel, FOX has moved to a hydraulic system for 2014 that allows the fork's stroke to be tweaked in 5mm increments and 30mm of overall change. There are two reasons for the switch, with one of them being the new layout's use of just one dynamic seal as opposed to the older style's three. This should equate to a smoother stroke that requires less breakaway force. The other advantage is that the TALAS system is now decoupled from the fork's air spring, giving the engineers at FOX more flexibility when it comes to dialling in the exact spring curve that they want. This has also allowed them to have more
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The 2014 Talas system works by moving oil from one chamber to another by way of check balls that block the oil's passage. When in long travel mode, the TALAS unit sits fully extended at the top of the cartridge, with the majority of the oil in the TALAS unit itself. Turning the TALAS lever to the left allows the check balls to move, opening up ports that let the oil flow from the larger TALAS chamber to an area between the cartridge wall and the outer wall of the TALAS unit, thereby pulling the TALAS element down into the cartridge and effectively shortening its overall length. The fork's air spring is still adjusted via a schrader valve in the center of the TALAS dial, with a long tube running down through the center of the unit and into the air spring chamber.
The new TALAS system has also allowed FOX to incorporate a simple and quick way to adjust the fork's travel when in its shorter travel setting, with clip-on spacers (shown at right) that fit over the outer tube of the TALAS unit. These 5mm spacers adjust the position of the shorter travel setting by limiting the movement of the hydraulic travel adjuster. If you're looking to tune how much travel the fork has when dropped down, simply unthread the spring-side topcap and clip on one or more of the 5mm spacers that restrict the total movement of the TALAS unit. For example, if you want your 120/150mm fork to offer 130mm in its shorter setting, clip on two spacers and call it done. At the other end of the stroke, a 'shuttle bumper' can be added to the opposite end of the cartridge to tune the fork's total travel. This mod won't alter the adjustment range of the TALAS unit, and it does require more assembly to accomplish.
The new TALAS system has also allowed FOX to incorporate a simple and quick way to adjust the fork's travel when in its shorter travel setting, with clip-on spacers (shown at right) that fit over the outer tube of the TALAS unit. These 5mm spacers adjust the position of the shorter travel setting by limiting the movement of the hydraulic travel adjuster. If you're looking to tune how much travel the fork has when dropped down, simply unthread the spring-side topcap and clip on one or more of the 5mm spacers that restrict the total movement of the TALAS unit. For example, if you want your 120/150mm fork to offer 130mm in its shorter setting, clip on two spacers and call it done. At the other end of the stroke, a 'shuttle bumper' can be added to the opposite end of the cartridge to tune the fork's total travel. This mod won't alter the adjustment range of the TALAS unit, and it does require more assembly to accomplish.
Revised TALAS Air Spring
While a lot of the criticisms of FOX's 2013 forks centered on the CTD damper, some blame can also be placed on the air spring system that was too linear. Now that the new hydraulic TALAS system has been decoupled from the air spring, FOX has more control over the spring curve in both long and short travel modes - 2014 sees a more aggressive ramp up at the end of the fork's travel, but also a big difference to how the spring acts with the TALAS set to short travel mode. This is in line with FOX's way of thinking that a lot of the latest longer travel 29ers, with their relatively tall bar heights, are being ridden in short travel mode the majority of the time until the rider requires more travel for a demanding downhill, which is the opposite way that many riders think of TALAS. While this won't be the case for everyone, we have to agree that we often find ourselves thinking the same when riding a 140mm travel big-wheeler. To that end, FOX's 2014 TALAS forks ramp up much more aggressively than past offerings when set to short travel.
While a lot of the criticisms of FOX's 2013 forks centered on the CTD damper, some blame can also be placed on the air spring system that was too linear. Now that the new hydraulic TALAS system has been decoupled from the air spring, FOX has more control over the spring curve in both long and short travel modes - 2014 sees a more aggressive ramp up at the end of the fork's travel, but also a big difference to how the spring acts with the TALAS set to short travel mode. This is in line with FOX's way of thinking that a lot of the latest longer travel 29ers, with their relatively tall bar heights, are being ridden in short travel mode the majority of the time until the rider requires more travel for a demanding downhill, which is the opposite way that many riders think of TALAS. While this won't be the case for everyone, we have to agree that we often find ourselves thinking the same when riding a 140mm travel big-wheeler. To that end, FOX's 2014 TALAS forks ramp up much more aggressively than past offerings when set to short travel.
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2014 Factory Float X CTD Trail Adjust While the current Float shock can perform well on the right bike, it is limited in its abilities once the bike's travel exceeds 160mm and intentions shift from trail riding to pushing the limits on a mid-travel machine. The DHX Air, on the other hand, works well on some longer travel bikes but lacks any sort of on the fly damping adjustment that can be a benefit when the trail becomes tame or some pedalling is required. Between those two shocks is where the Float X comes into the picture. Available in multiple sizes between 2.0'' and 3.0'' of stroke, the Float X features a reservoir that allows for more oil volume to combat heat buildup during extended, hard use, as well as a higher flow bridge between the body and reservoir that FOX says greatly helps in terms of preventing high-speed spiking. As its name suggests, it utilizes FOX's CTD damping principle that allows for three different levels of compression damping at the flick of a switch, as well as three different levels when set to the middle 'Trail' setting. | Float X Details • Intended use: trail/all-mountain • Intended travel: 140 - 180mm • Evolution of DHX Air • • CTD Trail Adjust damper - 3 on-the-trail CTD compression settings - Additional 3 clicks of adjustability in Trail mode (soft, medium, firm) • In-line rebound adjuster • Compatible with CTD remote • 7.5 x 2.0'' - 9.5 x 3.0'' sizes |
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As with the CTD damper on FOX's forks, the system is all about controlling the flow of oil. By limiting the flow of oil via opening and closing circuits, FOX is able to manage the shock's compression stroke: less oil flow equals a firmer feel, more oil flow allows the shock to remain active. The blue CTD lever on the reservoir body rotates a cam within shock, with the cam controlling the position of a stepped plunger that has a valve plate (picture a stiff, inflexible shim) attached to its inner end. Oil is free to flow when the lever is set to the full open 'Descend' mode, but turning the lever to the 'Trail' setting shuts off an oil path and firms up the shock's stroke. The three levels of damping in 'Trail' mode are fine tuned by a small step on the plunger, allowing for smaller levels of damper adjustment. Moving the lever to the 'Climb' setting brings the stiff valve plate down over the other two damping circuits, greatly limiting the flow of oil and nearly locking the stroke out completely. FOX has designed-in a small amount of oil flow that translates to a touch of compliance at top of stroke in climb mode for traction, and using the valve plate for only the 'Climb' circuit has allowed FOX to de-couple it from the other two settings, thereby letting them create a much stiffer 'Climb' setting than they would otherwise be able to employ.
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New CTD Remote
FOX's dual lever CTD remote of 2013 didn't win over many riders, which isn't a surprise given its rather large size. And while it actually functioned quite well when mounted on the underside of the bar in place of a left shifter (which obviously only worked if the rider was using a single chain ring drivetrain), it was cumbersome and exposed when bolted in an upright position. FOX was showing off a new remote in Hood River, one that not only took up much less room, but also still features the surprisingly useful two-button design. The remote, with can be used to control both a CTD fork or shock, is unfortunately not retrofittable to work with last year's models due to different cable pull ratios. It will also not work with their D.O.S.S. seat post, although it's safe to assume that FOX is working on something similar for their dropper post.
FOX's dual lever CTD remote of 2013 didn't win over many riders, which isn't a surprise given its rather large size. And while it actually functioned quite well when mounted on the underside of the bar in place of a left shifter (which obviously only worked if the rider was using a single chain ring drivetrain), it was cumbersome and exposed when bolted in an upright position. FOX was showing off a new remote in Hood River, one that not only took up much less room, but also still features the surprisingly useful two-button design. The remote, with can be used to control both a CTD fork or shock, is unfortunately not retrofittable to work with last year's models due to different cable pull ratios. It will also not work with their D.O.S.S. seat post, although it's safe to assume that FOX is working on something similar for their dropper post.
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 It isn't every day that you get to ride with supercross legend Jeremy McGrath. The "King of Supercross" was aboard his trusty Specialized Enduro, fitted with FOX's latest 2014 suspension offerings, naturally. |
Supercross Trivia with Mcgrath
It's fair to say that many mountain bikers are big fans of other two wheeled sports, especially supercross. That actually goes both ways, with many successful supercross riders also spending a lot of time on their mountain bikes, Jeremy McGrath being one of them. McGrath spent two days with our group, riding the slick Hood River Enduro race course with us in the rain and mud aboard his Specialized Enduro. When not on his bike he was being peppered with questions about his racing career, the bikes he's ridden, and what he thinks about Ricky, Bubba, Eli and the rest of today's racers. This quickly devolved into a sort of supercross trivia drinking game, with McGrath asking the questions and the teams divided up to represent the different media outlets in attendance. Did Pinkbike win? It was all a bit hazy, but one scorer had us ahead by a few points, while another said we just missed out. Either way, having McGrath quiz you on supercross isn't something to take lightly.
It's fair to say that many mountain bikers are big fans of other two wheeled sports, especially supercross. That actually goes both ways, with many successful supercross riders also spending a lot of time on their mountain bikes, Jeremy McGrath being one of them. McGrath spent two days with our group, riding the slick Hood River Enduro race course with us in the rain and mud aboard his Specialized Enduro. When not on his bike he was being peppered with questions about his racing career, the bikes he's ridden, and what he thinks about Ricky, Bubba, Eli and the rest of today's racers. This quickly devolved into a sort of supercross trivia drinking game, with McGrath asking the questions and the teams divided up to represent the different media outlets in attendance. Did Pinkbike win? It was all a bit hazy, but one scorer had us ahead by a few points, while another said we just missed out. Either way, having McGrath quiz you on supercross isn't something to take lightly.
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| Mark Fitzsimmons, FOX's Race Program Manager, lets it hang out on the Hood River Enduro course. As you might expect, Fitzsimmons can throw down... he put most of the media in attendance to shame. |
Riding Impressions
With an entirely new TALAS system, a re-worked CTD damper, and a heavily modified air spring, we expected the 2014 Factory 34 TALAS CTD fork that we spent three days on in Hood River, Oregon, to be an entirely different animal from its 2013 predecessor. And it is. One of issues with older TALAS style forks was that they simply never felt as smooth and active as a non-TALAS fork from FOX. Given that the old TALAS design worked by transferring air from one chamber to another, and that it required more seals to function, this wasn't really a surprise. What did take us by surprise, though, was just how active and supple the 2014 TALAS fork felt on the trail. The completely new hydraulic TALAS system utilizes just one dynamic seal as opposed to the three dynamic seals employed in the old system, meaning that the breakaway force required to have the fork enter its stroke has been greatly reduced, and this was immediately noticeable on the trail.
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| While the terrain in Hood River, Oregon, consisted of a lot of smooth, fast singletrack, there were a few gnarly rock sections to make riders pucker up. |
While the fork's increased suppleness was nice, it was the re-worked CTD damper that was most appreciated. It's no secret that the 2013 CTD damper, with its under damped compression stroke, left a lot of more aggressive trail riders a little underwhelmed, and the fork's 'Descend' mode was basically unusable for this reason. ''We received feedback from our racers and Enduro riders that although the 2013 fork is comfortable to ride, it was difficult to push hard when raced,'' Mark Fitzsimmons told us. ''Taking that information, we applied it to the 2014 forks and are very satisfied with the results.'' It was clear within the first few minutes on our 2014 test fork that the changes Fitzsimmons is talking about are for the better, with the fork
feeling much more supportive and less eager to gobble up its travel when it shouldn't. This was very noticeable when hard on the brakes, with our Norco Range's geometry staying much more static thanks to the fork not diving deep into its stroke. The result was more predictable handling and more useable travel, two things that allowed us to ride faster and with more confidence when the fork was in the 'Descend' mode. Turning the CTD dial to 'Trail' and 'Climb' offered a substantial difference in ride feel, with the latter being much firmer than what was available from the 2013 fork.
The 2014 Factory Float X CTD Trail Adjust shock bolted to bike was also an obvious improvement over the 2013 Float shock that it replaced. Admittedly, the terrain in Hood River, Oregon, didn't push the outer limits of the back of our 150mm travel Norco Range, but there was very apparent difference in feel between the stock shock and its replacement. Travel felt ''deeper'' in that there was little to no spiking when impacts at the rear came when the bike was already into its stroke, and, much like the fork, its action felt very coil-like when set to its open 'Descend' mode - supple is a word used
far too often, especially in this article, but it best describes how the Float X CTD Trail Adjust shock performs. As far as the shock's CTD functions go, there is a drastic difference between each of the three settings. 'Climb' offers what is essentially a locked out ride, ideal for climbing access roads, while the three position 'Trail' mode offers a good mix of performance that was great for the fast and smoother sections of the Hood River trail system we spent time on. The 2014 Factory Float X CTD Trail Adjust shock bolted to bike was also an obvious improvement over the 2013 Float shock that it replaced. Admittedly, the terrain in Hood River, Oregon, didn't push the outer limits of the back of our 150mm travel Norco Range, but there was very apparent difference in feel between the stock shock and its replacement. Travel felt ''deeper'' in that there was little to no spiking when impacts at the rear came when the bike was already into its stroke, and, much like the fork, its action felt very coil-like when set to its open 'Descend' mode - supple is a word used
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| The wide open trails made for very high speeds in many sections. |
Pinkbike's Take:
| We gave FOX a lot of heat for their 2013 CTD-spec forks, often criticizing their performance relative to what an aggressive rider would be looking for from their high-end suspension. We weren't the only ones, though, as many consumers felt the same way. It turns out that, much to their credit, FOX was listening to those complaints and working hard on a much improved damper that would silence the critics. The three days we spent on their newest offerings, while far from being a true test, have shown that the California company has made a giant leap forward in regards to performance for advanced riders. Those who have 2013 CTD forks haven't been left out in the cold, either, with FOX offering a relatively inexpensive upgrade program that lets riders have their forks converted to use 2014 spec CTD damping levels. The parts to make the change retail for $35 USD, with labour costing $65 USD if you send your entire fork in, or $45 if you ship them only your CTD cartridge. We're looking forward to putting more time on the 2014 Factory 34 TALAS CTD fork and Factory Float X CTD Trail Adjust shock that have been fitted to our Norco Range - stay tuned for a full length review down the road once we have more time on both. - Mike Levy |
www.ridefox.com
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There still bad, the ctd damper is a restriction of the forks action (via a hole that gets bigger or smaller) not being speed sensitive it restricts the forks movement for the whole travel stroke and ignores the trail conditions underneath it, this forces the rider to keep faffing with the knobs depending on the trail they can see in front of them.
Riders dont like it as there ride feels restricted i.e the enduro racers that require a firm fork turn on the ctd so their front end feels supported under extended pedal sections but get battered around on rough sections, forcing them to turn of the damping and blow all the way through the travel.
Fox need to put CTD back in the box until they can add a speed/force sensitive threshold gate, and for the money they charge dual speed rebound to go with it.
Maybe if its too hard for them they can spend 10 minutes on the Manitou website like they did with the new amazing 40 airspring.
but they cant copy stuff right away.. you wait a couple of years.. and then bring it out to the market . say its new and "better"
Oh really? I don't remember getting a negative impression from any pb 2013 fox shock reviews... I'm happy to be proven wrong though, link to a pinkbike review that called out the CTD stuff for the crap that it truly was?
How can your customer feel good after buying your product, when after less than half of a year, he is told that what he has is wrong and you fixed it for the next year model?! It seems that with the price tag, Fox counts on after-purchase postrationalization and fear of admiting to making a bad decision for so much money. Give a call to Crankbros how they eneded up with such practice
Their rear shocks are better, but you have to send them back to California to have them serviced, sometimes it takes a long time, and it's expensive.
The new air 40 is going to be disappointment from what I've heard. It's a little lighter, but requires even more maintenance than the old high-maintenance 40.
Their forks are disappointing considering how much they cost, and I wish companies wouldn't spec them so much on high end bikes.
Focking
Outrageously
Xpensive
I basically look for the downside and mentally multiply it by ten, because that is how I would feel if my fork wallowed or flexed after I dropped $800 on it. Levy doesn't feel that outrage since he didn't pay for it. He can be objective.
Just find some old and cheap RS, Marzocchi or Fox on sale, send it to Craig at Avalanche and ta-da: best fork ever!
I did this with my Lyrik and I can only compare it to BOS forks. Rest of mainstream forks don't come even close.
As for the cost, my brand new Lyrik + AVA came cheaper than all that new shiny artsy fartsy Fox forks.
The best part is that AVA cart needs service every 3-5 years! And you can do it yourself!
More here:
www.avalanchedownhillracing.com/AVA%20ADV%20Products.htm
forums.mtbr.com/knolly/lyrik-avalanche-%3D-good-786602.html
ouch
Older 55/66/lyrik/fox36 ( $300) + AVA ($550) = $850 for the best fork you have ever ridden. Custom tuned to your weight and riding style.
but my friends ride RS.. boxxers dont work properly new from purchase.!. and every pike i have seen leaks in the first week.. till its dry..
2step air totems that blow up.. and the new ones work better when the floodgate is removed.. ohh wait ! REMOVED !
right.. highly effective..
and then there is me who can ride a fox40 for 2+ years without really looking after it..
hell i ride my VAN 36 for 3+ years maybe more.. never looked at it once.. you know. why ? cause it worked all the time fine
my fox forks dont leak like pikes and they dont flex..
service aint that bad either.. printed the manual.. been doing them myself for years now..
and to close it off.. bring me a pic of a 40 who is broken like boxxers do.. (snapped both lowers in one go)
if anything tops fox.. its marzo imo.. bought a '07 -66- and that works even a little better than fox regarding bottoming out...
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Some guys above were saying that Pinkbike didn't criticize the damping on the 2013 fox products. Not saying you need to look at every article, but perhaps you should chill a little. This is their analysis from the 2013 release article:
www.pinkbike.com/news/fox-suspension-2013-float-ctd-first-ride.html
"The reason for us staying in the Trail position the majority of the time was due to what we feel is too light of valving in the Descend position. It was light enough, in fact, that we actually spent nearly all of our time descending with the fork in the firmer Trail setting, defeating the purpose of offering three different damping levels. There was just too much fork dive when with the CTD damper set to full open, allowing the bike to pitch forward and compromise the geometry when braking hard for corners, as well as not giving us a firm enough suspension 'platform' to push against when trying to work the rocks and undulations of the test track."
interesting enough, ive found the opposite with my ctd on my trek slash, i generally keep the shock in "t" all the time, except for long flat climbs, and i keep the fork in "t" or "d" for the downhills. granted i probably have more air in my fork than i should, i do like the feel of the descend mode in the fork, but feel i blow through travel way too fast in descend mode on my drcv rear shock.
just my two cents
From the Rocky Mountain Element review: " We feel like we're beating a dead horse when we talk about FOX's CTD-equipped forks, but a bike's front suspension plays such a vital role that we can't not mention it. We were forced to run much higher than recommended air pressure in order to hold the front end up under braking or on steep sections, and the 'Descend' mode employs so little compression damping that it will be near-useless under an aggressive rider. We left the fork in the 'Trail' mode 90 percent of the time."
From the Ghost review: "Unfortunately, the 120mm travel FOX fork has a tendency to gobble up more travel than it should when on the binders or on a steep portion of trail."
From the original CTD First Look article: "The reason for us staying in the Trail position the majority of the time was due to what we feel is too light of valving in the Descend position. It was light enough, in fact, that we actually spent nearly all of our time descending with the fork in the firmer Trail setting, defeating the purpose of offering three different damping levels."
From the recent Norco Range review: "While the bike's handling shines in many places, its 'Evolution' level FOX 34 TALAS CTD fork can feel overwhelmed on fast, successive impacts. This means that choosing to plow through any chunder can result in the fork seeming to lose its place in its travel, with an undamped feel to the stroke..."
From the Votec review (admittedly a Terralogic fork): "...with it tending to eat up its travel quickly after the first impact, likely a large factor in the bike's overly quick handling when aiming down steep chutes."
From the DB Mason FS review: ''Up front, we preferred a firmer setting for the FOX 34 fork..." which is a reference to the fork's underdamped feel.
From the Yeti SB95 review: "While we've aired our concerns over the lack of low-speed compression damping inherent in FOX's CTD-equipped forks, the extended trail-time that we've now spent on them has allowed us to come to a quick setup that gets the most from the design. Depending on the terrain and rider, adding at least 10 to 15psi over FOX's recommended pressure settings for the SB95's 34 fork, along with rotating the CTD Trail Adjust dial to the firmer middle selection, allows an aggressive rider to use both the 'Descend' and 'Trail' settings of the fork."
I'm glad they've improved it, but really, they should bring back the RLC dampers and let us have more specific tuning options. I've got a fox RLC fork and a rockshox mission control fork, and I can set them so they both function they way I like. I think it's fair enough if someone has a preference to a brand, but the level of passion on the subject here is more than a bit irrational in my view.
As for the complaints that Pinkbike is a paid advertising service; wake up. Do you see the ads in the banner...AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE? You are reading an article about new products, right? A lot of folks are interested in reading reviews of products so they can make somewhat educated decisions about what they buy and generally keep tabs on what's out there for their bike, not because they're inherently interested in the performance of damping and moving parts in general. I'm guessing that not too many of these folks read about the stuff that Thomson makes other than bike parts. So yes, this site is a participant in the bike industry by way of marketing and advertising. Great discovery! Pat yourself on the back! I do have the impression that the Pinkbike guys do a pretty good job of giving an honest opinion, without trashing products that aren't up to the gold standard. And, I for one enjoy the reading.
Thanks for taking the time, I think it is safe to say that this is just what the users want to see from this site. I dont want you to feel that it is get Mike Levy week. I enjoy your writing and find the technical element most interesting.
A quick search for CTD on Pinkbike brings up quite a list and most reviews dont mention these problems, in fact from general reading it seems that a bike is marked up or down depending on weather a bike is equiped with CTD or not. It is because of this that there has been such a response to my comment. Pinkbike is Fox heavy and any negative comments are subtle.
I take as much interest in suspension (mainly forks) as I do in riding. I recondition forks, try my hand at tuning and produce custom paint and decals. When a rider comes to me I have to consider there weight, their bike and the style and type or riding they do. I think this is what Pinkbike users want to see on this website, we want your opinion on how the fork performs with the bike and the rider over the terrain, not if its Fox or not.
There are multiple brands out there and we are all riding them, these brands all have pros and cons, some have great customer support while some really dont, this all factors in so please can we hear about it!
my 66 isnt 7lbs.. go metric ! its 2.6-ish?kg since its air..
seconds.. i am NOT comparing forks.. not even looking at performance.. just stated leakage ..
your argumentation is a bit like politics.. weapons of mass distraction.. bring up another point to evade the subject.. and mix stuff up for distraction..
i have seen stanchion wear.. and most of the time its POOR maintainance ! i ran my 40 seals for maybe 5 years before they flawed and my inner legs are scratch free
as final remark : kashima is smoother. not harder or better than standard coating.. it was also stated (by fox and reviews) that it would be more likely to wear faster.. (know your shit !)
do u need water bro ?
and to be clear,.. i am not thrilled with all this ctd crap.. i dont even use the talas option i have.. preload rebound and compression and i am a happy biker. (and occasionally propedal for the shock)
but since MTB became popular we have to deal with rich wannabees.. who buy all this shit as stated above by a few.
the real riders aint making the companies rich.. its the little people who ride too and they have their right to do so.
and since there are enough peeps with a lotta cash.. marketing happily steps in to sell and sell and sell ..
one new tweak a year does the trick.. the reason the everlasting light bulb never was mass produced... you should know consumerism since your an american't
You don't earn nearly as much money on rich people as you do on "poorer" ones. I assure you that Shimano makes waaay more money selling Alivio that they do with XTR. Porsche executives and key shareholders are nowhere close as rich as their colleagues from Volksvagen. Fox made CTD because they discovered that majority of their clients are not adjusting their suspension properly, because it is too complicated to do for them. There's a whole world out there outside of MTB forums. Most of their clients do not spend a fraction of time on bike-internet, they just buy a complete bike with it and expect it to work - when the fork or shock gets worn out due to lack of service, they buy a replacement one, and they don't give a shit because they have no time for it. they are die-hard MTBers when on the bike in their shiny outfit, but when they are off of it, they don't care (unlike us who care too much in the off-bike mode). Products designated to end up on after-market is a small piece of production. Most of them end up on complete bikes, even from a company like Fox.
High-end shit has an extremely important function, much more important than pushing the development, inventing or just providing a porduct to cater exclusive clientele. It is a show-off of what a company can do so that people who are on the market to buy one cheaper products - buy their stuff more eagerly, to create a belief that this high-end shit is in in the cheaper stuff as well, only a bit trickled - why do you think BMW or Renault sponsors F1 cars? So that people believe that F1 technology is in their Clio, which is utter bullocks, because there is absolutely nothing those two ever had and ever will have in common
And American consumerism: let's do it European style! New fashion line for each season - shall we? Look at fashion world ruled by Euros, it's just a matter of size of the market...
and you answered yourself.. most consumers (not bikers) buy completes.. and there is where the money is at.. the masses (90% are cheap bikes out there ,, therefor the money made with alivio) your stating the Obvious here now.. i had a proper education.. and a wide common knowledge.. your barking up the wrong tree here, ,
i never referred to the "rich peeps" that are making them the money.. its the consumers. .
Just too busy with kids and life to build a complete bike, but in the future I will.....sooooo stop runnin your mouth about shit you can't bac up!!
The ctd just needs to have pressure adjusted and its fine. Everyone acts like its ready for the trash. What a pile of morons on this forum here. Un believable.
your now here butthurt , hiding behind your family as an excuse.. (you dont even need) ...it's truly pathetic..
stop taking shit up upon yourself.. and have fun with your stock bike.. hell i even bought a stock bike.. twice..
i didnt want to fight.. and i do agree with you arguing can be fun, educational and occasionally eye opening..
i just really dislike it.. when the line of discussion get misdirected or statements get wrongly interpertated..
each can prefer a different brand indeed.. no fuss about that.
you go ahead and like your leaky pike
cheers
You made some remarks on American consumerism so you got your Euro shit for it.
the world is ruled by consumerism.. that is what keeps kapitalism running.. its everywhere..here there everywhere,,,
its just an unlucky fact that the usa is pretty big.. and is number one with it..
and believe when i say, i am really sad for Americans and all the shit thats going on now over there.. but even I abuse stereo-typing from time to time,.
As Dalai Lama says: usualy when you have a vague problem with somebody you have a real one of the same kind with yourself...
\
but dude you are seriously mis informed.. do a little rechearch about sweden.. at the moment the country is going to hell due to the muslim infestation ,,
sweden is better ruled then every other country in europe.. do some rechearch,.. and if you read something somewhere.. check it double.. dont copy-think-type..
seconds ,, what is your problem with fashion,, >? its for women and gays maybe ? ow and metrosexual men ?
men who follow fashion are deluded .. and pretty pathetic.. in my honest opnion.. fashion is for the peeps with poor self esteem,.
and you are too obsessed with it i think.. bringing it up over and over again,.
Fashion is for everyone, everyone is a part of it whether they like it or not. Kashima is fashion, slack head angle is fashion, Enduro is fashion, carbon is fashion, black red white is fashion, raw is fashion. Denying it is pointless, consciously or not, someone always follows a trend, because it is there. Maybe my dad isn't but he doesn't give a shit about almost anything, and he isn't the most social and liked person you could meet.
Your racist and you generalize everyone into categories cause that's how your simple mind works.
Go watch all the thousands of PRO riders shred there completely STOCK bikes!
Not everyone has the time,tools,knowledge,money,patience,space to build a bike from frame up if that makes you think your hardcore well congrats
You should change your screen name to I'm hardcore cyber hawk who talks shit on forums and I also have a cool barb. Wire tattoo and drive a red Prius.
How's that for stereo typing?? Seriously get a life bud!
jeff you moron.. . first time ever i am falling back to cursing now.. a pro will shred anything ! your argument is invalid..
and for the rest.. you know that assumtions are the mother of all f*ck-ups ?
well you just made quite a few....a lot...everything really... and waki lost it in his second paragraph....
to make one thing clear.. i dont hate ANYONE who bought a stock bike.. if jeff had read everything, i bought 2 myself..
it was to make a point regarding the MARKETING subject..... there are more bikers than on pinkbike alone.. ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
well lets just agree on that one thing then.. football is for tossers.. as you typed before you changed your comment..
But we aren't any happier... we just can't shake off being prepared and trained to be an outsanding employee... soldiers get graves or medals at best, but it is the general you want to be
but why do you allways fall back on engineering ? like almost every other engineer does here.. ?
i get the feeling that engineers feel like they are top of the world or something ? and if that is so.... us dutch lifted the kursk..
buttttttt we're straying off again
Yet they can tell you what you have to change, what you have to do, and you have no other choice but to listen to them - hence arrogance of some of them - because they told off the guy that in theory sits above them in the product development pipeline, then they are 100% entitled to steer all the guys below them in the pipeline. I can't express how much less stressful is the work of modyfing and adjusting the idea rather than inventing it.
There is no better example than Apple - why would someone want to paint all the factory in white, and further more, let go 30% of cleaning staff and tell employees to clean after themselves? Is there any less practical colour? Why would someone want a phone with one button?!
Ego can be ego, but in terms of a designer or engineer it can be limited by the laws of physics. Politicians operate in realm where laws of physics are asbolutely irrelevant. to be honest, the capitalistic architecture, urban design and city planning shapes our environment way better than some ridiculous politicaly correct hippie ideas. Abuse of power is one thing, but working against the natural development, against urban tissue formed by geography and economics is a total f*ck up. Especialy that it is done by completely incompetent people. In the past cities were brutalized by tyrans desire, these days by a reality-show level cliché
Fortunately there are guys like you in Netherlands who get it really right, especially in Rotterdam
A further moan, may not find many backers but even on my 110mm travel xc bike (I also ride a 180mm fr), I would be willing to carry an extra 2lb of coils to give a nice smooth supple ride, I imagine I would be faster since I'll have way more traction, swapped an rp23 for a van r coil on my old alpine 160 and it totally transformed the ride. It's not all about weight is it?
We all know you can do it, and do it awesome, so why bother with ctd? I get the accessibility part but damn.
Maybe I should manufacture it myself.
Thing I don't get though is why Marzo changed ETA for that unbelievable crap that ATA was.
Then Shimano brakes, not sure... they are really great until first overhaul, then it is a lottery. My 2008 XTs are half of the power they had, 2010 Saints also got a bit slack. No matter how much I bleed them (and I bleed tem right) or change pads, it just never gets back there somehow. I have 2012 XTs now, we'll see. But Elixirs 5 opened my eyes for Avid really...
SRAM shifters do not do it for me. Current Saint is the pinnacle of shifter ergonomics so far. I will never buy SRAM brakes again. 2012 XT and XTR work beautifully (and much easier to service - had to do that when shortening hoses).
Few hours a year totally worth not having to ride a compromised bike for me.
Those original orange Marzocchi Z1s were buttery smooth and showed no signs of wear after years of neglect. Fox, please use that material and those seals.
I don't know if it can be said that Pinkbike is directly getting paid to do so, but to some extent, it is probably a business decision to keep industry relationships healthy. It would be nice if they were a little more assertive with their honest reviews of product, sponsors be damned. Drop the brand love affairs. What are they going to do, boycott you when you have so many riders subscribe to your site? If you lose us, will you still have the ad revenue you are trying to protect?
Get with us and get dirty with your reviews. Let's read what you are really thinking. Pretend it's a conversation with your riding buddies. Being riders yourselves, you have to have objective and non objective opinions. Throw them out there. If it's a personal opinion, say so. Let those that disagree, disagree. If you can't realistically communicate about product, then stick to race, travel, character, etc. stories. You guys deliver on those.
Help shape the industry instead of being and apologist for it. Let's see a new and improved Pinkbike for 2014.
From the Ghost review: "Unfortunately, the 120mm travel FOX fork has a tendency to gobble up more travel than it should when on the binders or on a steep portion of trail."
From the original CTD First Look article: "The reason for us staying in the Trail position the majority of the time was due to what we feel is too light of valving in the Descend position. It was light enough, in fact, that we actually spent nearly all of our time descending with the fork in the firmer Trail setting, defeating the purpose of offering three different damping levels."
From the Votec review (admittedly a Terralogic fork): "...with it tending to eat up its travel quickly after the first impact, likely a large factor in the bike's overly quick handling when aiming down steep chutes."
From the DB Mason FS review: ''Up front, we preferred a firmer setting for the FOX 34 fork..." which is a reference to the fork's underdamped feel.
From the Yeti SB95 review: "While we've aired our concerns over the lack of low-speed compression damping inherent in FOX's CTD-equipped forks, the extended trail-time that we've now spent on them has allowed us to come to a quick setup that gets the most from the design. Depending on the terrain and rider, adding at least 10 to 15psi over FOX's recommended pressure settings for the SB95's 34 fork, along with rotating the CTD Trail Adjust dial to the firmer middle selection, allows an aggressive rider to use both the 'Descend' and 'Trail' settings of the fork."
Yet another reason to explore weather the 36 can fit a 27.5" tire... I'm NEVER going to be happy with CTD and the 34 is a wet-noodle for us bigger guys. Way to thoroughly "drop the ball" FOX... Clearly you "know better" then us lowly riders but if this site is any indicator, you're gonna be loosing market share by the shovel full unless you make a solid change and give riders what we WANT, not what you THINK we should want. AS it stands I'll be looking to X-Fusion, RS or BOS (hell even DVO will be making good forks before FOX pulls it's head out) before I ever lower myself to use another Fox Fork. The Float X looks promising, but I'll remain skeptical as they've proven they can screw up even the simplest of good ideas.
Can someone tell me why if 650 seems to be aimed at enduro why can't we have a burly fork?!
I too am thinking HARD about running X-Fusion at both ends on my next build. I rode on of their HLR Air cans (with the ext res) and it was awesome. Every little click of adjustment makes a noticeable difference and makes tuning your bikes sus. SO much easier. I like that you can run 650B on the Vengeance and have a 36/20/160mm fork. FOX needs to pull their heads out and make the 36 an option to the 34 for those of us who aren't gonna drink the coolaid. God knows I won't miss CTD.
www.surf-sales.com
www.pinkbike.com/news/fox-suspension-2013-float-ctd-first-ride.html
"The reason for us staying in the Trail position the majority of the time was due to what we feel is too light of valving in the Descend position. It was light enough, in fact, that we actually spent nearly all of our time descending with the fork in the firmer Trail setting, defeating the purpose of offering three different damping levels. There was just too much fork dive when with the CTD damper set to full open, allowing the bike to pitch forward and compromise the geometry when braking hard for corners, as well as not giving us a firm enough suspension 'platform' to push against when trying to work the rocks and undulations of the test track."
it's over priced crap. 2014 forks what £900 or more? black marzocchi 55s with gold stanchions simple use own settings bomb proof £400 so you can still look cool with your gold stanchions for half the price bargain. and they won't break down like shitty fox.... shove your fox up your ass never buy fox again.
Why not go back to the RC2 cartridge? All other Fox's since then have been a step backwards
"It's no secret that the 2013 CTD damper, with its under damped compression stroke, left a lot of more aggressive trail riders a little underwhelmed, and the fork's 'Descend' mode was basically unusable for this reason".
Fox are out of order for not testing properly first, distance seller regulations in the UK might give some people grounds to sue, it would just take one victory for 1000's of people to get a refund/upgrade.
fight the power!
I'm glad the new stuff works much better and validates your original opinion, but that does little for me. What am I going to do, take the '13 off my bike and try to sell it to someone (at a depressed price because it's a '13...) and then shell out full retail for a '14? Absolutely not.
Fox is compounding their mistake here by NOT also announcing some sort of compression damper upgrade program. Listen, I don't expect that to be free as that would cause a huge influx of forks to be fixed... imagine the cost to them and how long it would take to fix... but they SHOULD offer it as a free UPGRADE when you send your '13 in for annual service... and offer 10% off the service to boot as compensation for spending a year riding an under performing design. I think that would be fair, and that would keep me interested in Fox products.
If they don't do something like this... this will be the last Fox product I buy, period. Rockshock's new Pike looks terrific and there are multiple rear shock options (DB Air, Monarch, Vivid..) that are equal or superior to the RP. I don't think I'm the only one that will feel this way.
So... poor journalism on your part. Why are you not taking to task on this?
So... $100 to fix their mistake?
Hmmm....
I think my idea is better... include it as part of the annual rework. At worst I should be on the hook for the new damper ($35).. not your labor! PUSH industries... opportunity is knocking!
I wonder if they still had extra 2012 forks at the Yeti factory or if they made a judgement to not ship a CTD fork with that bike.
I love my 2011 180 RC2, for the setup requires thought- therefore teaches suspension action/response and preference.
My friend has just spent the largest investment he has ever made on his bike for a 2013 Float 34 Kashima CTD adjust, and now I am sending the link of this article to him and telling him that his fork is now an officially defective product with the wrong damping and there shall be no recall.
The Talas 2014 have a coil fork feeling. A lot better mid stroke of the RLC. For my style of riding ( trail, enduro, all mountain) Its the perfect fork. I don't like the 2013 damper but its all new beast in 2014. I said if you have a 2013, send it to Fox for 50$. The best 50$ you can invest in a bike. ( sorry for my bad English....)
(Oh oh, am now expecting the obligatory contact from FOX CS representatives, asking me when and where and what happened. It's not necessarily a single instance; this is endemic. Instead of contacting me just because I am whining online, why not get a big meeting at your HQ, study the processes currently in place (or not), then get back to ALL of us, not just one whining internet dude.)
Guess I got lucky?? I keep trying to find these things but I don't!! I ride it full out dh in desend mode and rip down the mountain just fine.
It sound like fox has improved their products but I wont buy. I am too cheap to upgrade. I may have my shock "pushed" but I wont upgrade the fork any time soon. I am not racing and it works well enough for now.
But, of course in pinkbikes review of the lyrik, they suggested the RS put a type of 3 position lever instead of all the adjustments, to make it easier.. haha
love the lyrik.. the fox rear w/ctd.. not sure yet..
On a side note, this article is a little funny. I don't keep up with everything that goes on in the MTB industry or what is posted on pinkbike. But I've never once seen a review from Pinkbike that said anything negative about the CTD dampener. All I ever saw was praise about how great it was. There was light critiquing, but nothing like "a lot of heat". I think this site has a lot of weight in the industry, so bad reviews on a product would likely have far reaching effects. But at least for me, the credibility of Pinkbike's reviews just tanked after seeing this article.
Good luck Fox, it will be a long while before you have my business again.
Wonder how much they're gonna want for the cartridge?
Stick to mountain bikes Pink Bike, as if you asked JM what he thought of 'Ricky's Chances this year', he would've politely answered your question(s) without pointing out how IGNORANT you are, then started looking at his watch every 30 seconds.
'Ricky' retired quite a few years ago, and the only current rider worth talking about is Ryan Villapoto-the guy who's won the last three SX titles, as well as the last MXdN, and who's STILL leading the '13 MX standings after 8/12 rounds. And YOU don't even know who he is..
'Bubba' flushed himself down the toilet last year.
Moving on, it's 'nice' to see Fox blaming the people who PAY THEM MONEY for the '13s woes, and as one of 'em, I'll definitely remember that next time I go to replace my suspension, which come to think of it, just happens to be NOW. I'm one of the SUCKERS that PURPOSELY purchased a NEW mountain bike(Slash) BECAUSE it had Fox suspension on it, and after riding the things on my local trails(which don't contain any decent hits or drops), I'm scared to take the bike up to Big Bear or Mammoth, as the damn things (both forks and shock) are using up damn-near their entire travel on SMALL shit.
I'm sure I speak for other '13 Fox 34 CTD owners, when I say we're glad for Fox that they seemingly 'fixed' 'em in 2014, but where does that LEAVE US?
If you want a downhill fork, get one. And try to climb then...
Rebound damping on rear shock (CTD DRCV), however, suffers too much from the CTD position...
As for the DRCV, I love it! You can run the fork stiffer and still swallow big hits without having to mess with high-low speed compression and bottom out settings that - anyways - only downhill oriented forks offer. I feel I would not like much my 32 CTD if it was not for that DRCV feature.
On can't expect the best of downhill and cross-country to be fulfilled by an only fork with reduced settings. But in the end, I feel that CTD DRCV combo is a very nice compromise.
That being said, I am eager to try out the 2014 CTD! Hope they will offer the upgrade for DRCV equipped forks!
And this 2014 stuff feels much improved, although I will add the disclaimer that I need to put much more time in on it on my home mountains.
Where's the pic of McGrath throwing down on his bike?
its really not that hard to sit down and spend an hour or two and research all of the current suspension offerings on the market today, including reading reviews.. which is honestly what any smart person with half of a working brain would do. (yeah, just went there)
dont group all of fox's dampers with the CTD one, theyre not the same.
If you were to sit down and research there's no way you would end up with FOX unless you want the chassis for an Avalanche Mod.
do i need to go on? what im saying is no suspension company is perfect, they all make mistakes. hell do you have any idea how much sh!t i read about people struggling with the BOS stuff? do you see me dissing on it? no, you just wont see it on my bike.
stop whining, we know its not on your bike and you dont plan to run any of their stuff, we get it.
im not taking it personally, i just dont like seeing this many people bash on something that theyre trying to fix.. im constantly reading things about how people cant get their BOS forks to work, or the adjustments on their shocks dont work, and you dont see them taking any huge heat for it do you? as already stated, i think its awesome that theyre helping out people who were hit the worst and retrofitting them with the new stuff for pretty damn cheap. i know a lot of manufacturing companies in general dont necessarily care about retro fitting some of their products into their older stuff (more $$ on their end)
although ive been told that foxs custo service has been terrible and i dont doubt it. ive called before asking a couple of basic questions (where should the rebound knob be when i take apart my damper), and they couldnt even help me (the guy i talked to told me to close off the rebound all the way, the opposite of what should be done -__-).. when i want to 'upgrade' ill be going through push or avalanche. IMO more bang for your buck.
...2 max?
there are too many good suspension companies out there today to be a 'brand whore', buy what you like and what you think you can benefit the most from! youd be an idiot to buy a fork based on just the name or cause it has 'gold shiny tubes'.. although im sure it happens, i just laugh at those people and keep riding past em!
edit:
with that said, i have no CTD stuff and have no plans to buy CTD stuff.
buttt i could actually care less about CTD, as i was never interested in it anyways. currently my dj has a f32 Fit RL on it and its freakin awesome, im also building a operator thats got a dhx rc4 and a coil 40 on it. if you couldnt tell, i like the fit damper a lot! couldnt be happier!
honestly, if youre an informed consumer and read into every part before you buy, especially big parts like suspension (which you should be doing anyways), you would know that CTD doesnt work as advertised, leading you to not buy a CTD fork.. say it again and again. its not that hard, COMMON SENSE PEOPLE
+1