What's new with the 2014 Vivid • Counter Measure negative spring • Rapid Recovery damping • Re-worked piggyback bridge and adjustment dials • Smoother oil flow paths for less turbulence | Vivid R2C and Vivid Air R2C Details • New for 2014 • Adjustments: separate beginning and ending stroke rebound, compression • Weight: Vivid - 402 grams (depending on size), Vivid Air - 520 grams (depending on size) • MSRP: $430 USD (coil), $674 USD (air) |
Vivid Air R2C The upsides of an air-sprung shock include less weight and the ability to precisely fine-tune the spring rate, but we'd be seeing them on every racer's bike if they were without fault. There are two major points of contention: one, the sometimes inconsistent spring rate and damping due to heat buildup (RockShox's Hot Rod, an adjuster needle with a thermoplastic resin core that self adjusts in size as temps go up, goes a long way towards remedying this), and two, the increased friction from the high-pressure seals required by an air shock. Yes, a modern air-sprung shock, especially a long-stroke model, is much more active than they were from years past, but most can't compare to the extremely supple nature of a coil-sprung model. You don't need to be a suspension engineer to see that an air shock is the ideal application for RockShox's Counter Measure system, and that much felt to be true during our day's testing with the new Counter Measure-equipped Vivid Air R2C. In practice there is a marked increase in sensitivity at the top of the stroke between the 2014 Vivid Air and previous versions, with a supple feel that rivals a coil shock in ease of entry into its travel. The difference is night-and-day when pushing down on the bike's saddle, offering an impressively smooth feel to the back of the bike. That translates to a very fluid-feeling rear end when on the trail, with a noticeable improvement in sensitivity. While the Counter Measure system may only affect the first 10mm of the shock's stroke, the extremely light action certainly changes the shock's personality for the better as a whole - it felt more active to us throughout its stroke, likely because it is so eager to go into its travel at the very beginning. We are not going to go so far as to say that the Vivid Air R2C is ever going to replace the coil-sprung version on the World Cup circuit - top racers can be a finicky bunch and air suspension has not been popular so far - but we wouldn't be all that surprised to see it pop up on a few top riders' bikes more often than in years past. And as for the average rider and racer, air suspension is beginning to make a lot more sense, if not for the weight loss, certainly for the adjustability. | Vivid R2C The coil-sprung Vivid R2C is always going to offer a more active ride than its lighter weight brother simply due to it not having to deal with the seals required by the air spring, but like any long-stroke shock, it still employs the same IFP within its piggyback - every time the shock is compressed it must also push against the 250psi behind the IFP. Fitting the Counter Measure negative spring to the standard Vivid R2C has created a shock that is so gung-ho to get into its stroke that it takes only the slightest impact to have it activate, and it is fair to say that we were impressed with the responsiveness that RockShox has been able to create. The difference in performance between a non-Counter Measure Vivid and the 2014 model doesn't seem as pronounced as the contrast between the new and old Vivid Air shocks, but that is to be expected given the already active nature of the coil-sprung Vivid. Unfortunately, there were no older model Vivids for us to compare back-to-back, but you can expect a comparison review in the near future that goes deeper into the performance differences. |
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Now they say that 97% of their costumers are too bad for their latest products.
Great Move RockShox, i think your marketing director should be fired.
You doubt me? Why else give us the price? 99% of us would look at it once and say no way, but when they say we can't have it suddenly we all want it.
This is going to sellout in 2014 when it goes on the market for the rest of us.
This is 100% Marketing and steps as follows:
1) 1st Part - Create Desire - Introduce Product as "PRO'S Only" ("Special Edition") technology through mass media, etc...Why would they show us in the first place then if they really wanted only Pro's to ride it? To brag in your face? To really tell you "HA HA you guiseee suxx0rs!". No. This creates Desire. Show us something we can't have, for now. The MTB crowd especially DH, LOVES to follow what the pro's do/use..if they literally told you that piece of cardboard was good as a rear axle, 80%+ would follow.... Marketing in MTB is fairly straightforward, we all drool over the stuff the Pro's and only Pro's have access to, for good or worse.
2) 2nd Part - Create Demand & Wait - This period where they say "Pro's Only" is a good time for them to keep eye on things and see how the product performs before "real" release, whether due to problems, refinement testing, etc. Cause, no company without their Consumers can sustain themselves, 98% time, IT IS for the consumers. That's just how economics work. So for them to tell us, this isn't for you is pretty much see-through tactic. More marketing at this point for us to see and be reminded of. 1 year down the road?
3) 3rd Part - Delivery - All of a sudden, one day, they say "Hey! Through some process of ___insert thing___, we got this technology or decided to pass this product to you, YES YOU, the 70%+ who thinks they must have the latest and greatest!". They'll make it seem very special that the product gets passed on to us..
4) ???
5) Profit.
Surprised RS decided to go this way with marketing...Either way, this stuff will be passed down to consumers whether or not this is a "strategy". Competitiveness from other brands/companies and need for money will push the product to us. MTB products is usually 1/2 marketing anyways...
This is absolute f*cking truth, i's all there is..
You just sold me a Cane Creek Double Barrel Air for my new bike
Here Cane Creek "Please take my money"
They are acknowledging that they are not able to mass produce a decent and reliable rear shock, so that they have to hand pick guinea pigs to ride it, and still try to spin it like something positive.
"Counter measure"? Really? For a negative coil spring? Just like I have in my old fork?
Their target audience are gullible 15 year olds it seems.
On the other side, you have DVO poping up with CG and saying to everyone that they can understand and tune their fork and shock if they follow the steps they'll give us and that we are good enough to do so.
This kind of sensation whoring is like Paris hilton or Lindsey lohan or Geert Wilders, its like a little child who resorts to the negative attention of throwing tantrums, just because it wants attention and cant get enough in a positive way. Plain pathetic.
www.facebook.com/rockshox/posts/573987202620769
"The RockShox Vivid and Vivid Air will be available to all at your local bike shop and distributor starting May 2013. [...]"
Their PR/marketing are just not professional. They do not know what they are doing.
also, what's this about specialized's bikes getting stolen?
This plan adds exclusivity - once anyone can buy it people will feel like they're getting pro level stuff. Also, after the first season's testing is finished and the riders offer feedback the shock will be better fine tuned for general release (i.e. the pro racers are guinea pigs/soft release for Rock Shox). Pros are a good test panel since they do scheduled maintenance and can really exploit the differences from one shock to another. Most riders can't be bothered to set up a bike correctly, regardless of cost.
I'd also assume Rock Shox has limited production capabilities one way or another and can't fill all the orders right away ...
If you're going to spend 6 years doing R&D to make such an "amazing" product, how bout telling us how we're going to benefit from the trickle down of technology rather than just wagging it in our faces and sticking your tongue out at us? Don't forget what Eddie Murphy said:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=J61aeN7apF0
Do not know about you, but I am neither.
They are just not capable of mass producing a reliable part, that's all. Came out with the most idiotic plan ever to hide that fact.
RS not capable of mass producing a reliable part? You obviosly weren't a fan to begin with if you think that. As for me, I've had 2 rs forks and have been extremely pleased with both. I've only had fox shox in the back, but i have had repeated problems with the rp23 and my brother has had 3 dhx coil shox stop functioning in some way. He swithches to marz and rs and has not looked back.
It is not the question of whether you can tell the difference, or care about it. (I can and I do) It is the question of how you treat your customers. What I was referring to was the implied message: "You are to clueless, so you can only buy second best stuff". It is an idiotic message. Nobody in his right mind will treat his customers like that.
My customers do not need 90% of features in my product. Telling them that is the easiest was to lose a contract. Not because they do not know that, but because it is obnoxious and insulting to communicate in this way.
Do not try to defend idiocy. They either can't produce the goods, or they are morons.
@Axxe: yes, I am sure their intention (implication. . .) was that you and all the rest of us we are clueless. That was the goal. That explains why they said they all enjoy carnal knowledge of your sister, made fun of your mom and insulted your haircut.
Bunch of premadonnas. . .
It was either a marketing gimic gone wrong (though how wrong will really be seen when it really does go on the market), or they are the engineers and pros who know something about it and not all improvements are significant enough to improve the ride enough to justify calling it an upgrade, but it might be the first step towards something that does. Either way, it obviously is not intended to be an insult. Look forward to future innovations or buy your self a CCDB. Either way stop taking it so personally.
I accept the neg props that will come of this. It means you read it.
@taletotell: I do not take it personally. I do not care about their rear shock at all, would not buy it in any case. And I will keep using my Lyrik DH, which I think is the best AM fork right now. I am commenting on a blatantly idiotic PR move from Rock Shox. And you are trying to defend them - which actually seems far more personal.
The bottom line is that many riders have not gone faster for years.
The Fort William time seems to get slower and slower, year on year on a track that is often faster than the previous year.
Many riders still use the Minion up there, there have been many newest, best, most pro, fastest tyres since then but they have not slaughtered the minion.
Many pro riders use more compression damping on their shock, you cant pump the back side of an obstacle with something that is super mega brilliant, best ever, floating on oil, plush (never heard so much BS in my life).
As for the marketing strategy, of trying to create desire.... who cares.
My Vivid coil is faster on my Scalp than the air, as the frame is designed around a coil, mu vivid Air is faster on my Nomad than the coil as the frame is designed around an Air shock (timing on Freelap).
The best "feeling" shock I have ever owned is an Avalanche Woodie, I wonder when they will move away from air again and Nitrogen charge shocks, telling us how good that is compared to air....
2 weekends ago a guy on a Hard tail beat over 50% of the field on Dh bikes. He had this new technology for rear suspension called..... Legs!
Must stop ranting.... I have been a development engineer for nearly 20 years, marketing do my nut in.
The purpose of including the performance of someone on a hard tail, taking part in a downhill race was to illustrate that it is not the suspension that made him fast, but the pilot.
It is true that this shock may make a rider 0.1% faster down a hill than the previous version, in certain conditions. But what next, is the rear shock now better than the front shock, so a new fork iteration is required.
I would love to know what the engineers who design for RS would like to see in a fork, that is outside of their COG's allocation from their sponsors. What can really be pushed in terms of performance, weight, reliability etc. I would guess that this shock would not look like it does just now.
Having worked for SME's to very large multinational companies in R&D in oil, military, aerospace, and the medical industry, it is amazing who is constrained by what budgets, what decisions are over ruled by the needs of marketing, who gets to do the "real" development, and what influence you have when you work for a mass manufacturer compared to a bespoke design house or high reliability, high temperature downhole tool manufacturer.
If you look at the bike industry, the small companies are often constrained by material selection, the large by marketing requirements, some try to deviate, develop and integrate new solutions but often we, the consumer revert to type due to what we are used to. The gearbox bike, the Empire, the millard bike, the Anchilotti all were different, but essentially we all ride bikes that have no great innovation that has been ground breaking. Which brings me back to.... a guy on a traditionally shaped hard tail with a short travel fork beat many on their high end Dh bikes, dripping with kit.... because the pilot is still the main influence on suspension, we have more influence on how a bike rides than any shock.
it is WELL proven suspension that does not drop wheels into holes IS faster as less square edge hits so less loss of speed. all they are doing is sugar coating a tech that is implemented in the wrong way to claim itll make you faster when factually it wont.
why do you think ALL top pro's run their super hard (less loss of energy in suspension) with super slow rebound, to stop wheels falling into holes. i know this for fact having spent time with Al bond last season (ex crc/nukeproof rider) and now actually have his old fork, having left at his settings is admittedly so much better then i achieve before with my old 888. so actually stiffened and slowed my CCDB to suite and can easily say i am in more control with more speed then ever before. even to point i have spring rate in fork one up from what i am supposed to run and a shock coil 75-100lbs heavier then supposed to. and its really really works, 30% sag is too much.
sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/181060_571916799494476_1816286664_n.jpg
That's ridiculous.
However, thanks to my bike, I can somewhat ride the double diamonds on North Shore or pro lines in Whistler, and if I didn't have my boxxer wc up front, I would pretty sure eat mud much more often (had a RC couple months ago, and still can use the difference). Not to mention riding it on a bike that's "my level", 'cos then I would just ride down the shuttle road. Same goes for replacing my Atlas bars with some cheap 680s or maybe jus a shock the discussion is all about here. I could use a bit more high speed compression, but to tinker with that, I need either to get some of the best shocks, or do a custom tuning, why shouldn't I be allowed to do that just 'cos I'm not all that good. To me, downhill biking is all about having fun and getting faster, riding harder, and having a proper bike clearly makes it happen ever since my begginning not even 3 years ago.
How many negative reviews are user error? Don't give us too much credit man. A vanilla r coil is more than enough for most riders.
PS this was the topic of an article recently, and there was a cool video of a couple of guys on xc bikes doing crazy FR a while back too.
That's not a new idea. An invention called the "internal combustion engine" uses textures on surfaces to maintain hydrodynamic lubrication and has for the last 100 years or so.
I guess Anne Caroline is not in the top 3%
You just managed to blow smoke up the @ss of 97% of your customer base...
Not the brightest move surely :-/
"We are not going to go so far as to say that the Vivid Air R2C is ever going to replace the coil-sprung version on the World Cup circuit"....
Errm, didn't I just read here:http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Pinkbike-Poll-Air-Suspension-in-World-Cup-Downhilling.html
This:
"There is no doubt in my mind that there will be a time when we see air-sprung forks and shocks widely accepted as the best equipment for World Cup downhill racing."
So I am genuinely confused now as to what you actually think, because use of the word "ever" in the first quote does seem to eliminate the potential for the second.
On another note, the Nukeproof Pulse is really growing on me. Still don't like the 'Nukeproof' branding, looks and sounds cheap
I am probably in the bottom 3% of DH riders, but still can tell the difference with every click of CCDBA adjustments - and appreciate a well performing part.
www.vitalmx.com/videos/member/Chad-Reed-My-Way-Suspension-Testing-For-Monster-Energy-SX,8524/ocscottie,405
Re-releasing an product saying its better and then telling everyone that they are too slow/dumb to use/tune it and its exclusive for pro's..... its completely see through marketing and treating your customers like idiots is going to get your sales through the roof no doubt. NOT!
"The new counter measure feature of your marketing strategy will no doubt increase the friction between RS and the customers money....."
Btw, love my new 2013 Boxxers......haha
Glad I'm running FOX front/back, always will...Crackers.
www.bikemag.com/news/news-of-the-tweet-97-percent-of-the-internet-is-as-dumb-as-a-hammer/?fb_action_ids=10152681622505026&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582
if i went to a bikepark and took the front wheels of everyone who wasnt cornering as fast as is humanly possible then there would be alot of unicyclists around!! just because we cant take it to the limit does that mean we arn't allowed it???
im not a poser, i don't have a 5000 carbon framed dh bike or a 29er hardtail with xtr bling but it seems pretty silly that you wont let average joe have one of these....
more importantly though what have you done to stop the lower shock eyelet unscrewing itself from the sanction that was my biggest problem with the vivids of past, the fact they dissasembled themselves as you ride!!
"Hey kids, remember when grown men used to wear spandex, tease their hair, put on their mother's make up and sing about roses having thorns? Remember how awesome that was? That's how awesome our shock is."
The only good thing to come from the glam metal scene was the thrash metal backlash.
Honestly though, are you guys dumb? Of course they're gonna sell it like any other shock the sell; it's a marketing campaign to get everyone excited about it being exclusive.
The first 2,5% of the customers are the so called innovators (willing to purchase the product the very second it is released, despite a high price and questionable quality, just for the sake of being first)
Thereafter follows Early Adopters (roughly 13,5%), Early Majority (roughly 34%), Late Majority (roughly 34%) and finally the laggards (roughly 16%).
Regarding which target market to satisfy, you can follow the principle that if you get access to satisfying the first market (innovators), you can then move along and get access to satisfying the succeeding ones, thus getting access to selling the product to a larger amount of potential customers during the product life. If your target market at the point of releasing the product would be the early majority, you will loose out on roughly 16% of the customers since they don't find it being exclusive enough for their need of "being special". Rock Shox's 3% rule corresponds to this quite well to the 2,5% mark of innovators, and this "theory" would imply that the shocks will indeed be sold to "normal" customers at some point in the future.
(disclaimer: this could just be one out of maaaany reasons; not enough manufacturing capacity, supplier trouble etc., I'm just adding this for the sake of discussion)
Science bitch.
You don't need to be a card-carrying Mensa to realize that the best way to properly evaluate a shock, would be to mount it on a bike you have a LOT of experience riding on, and a track you know like the back of your hand.
When you hop on a new-to-you bike, and ride it on a new-to-you track, you're not only NOT gonna ride the bike (hence the shock) in its performance window, you're not even gonna be able to tell between what the chassis and linkage is responsible for, and what the shock is.
Until you memorize every bump, line, and corner on the track, and become comfortable enough with the bike to learn to differentiate between what the chassis is doing, and what the suspension is doing, you're quite frankly gonna be worthless as an evaluator.
And anybody with a pulse is gonna realize, ONE day riding on the shock is NOT enough to do so. That is, unless your name is Aaron Gwin, and you learn tracks in two runs, and have the ability to ride above a product's capabilities at will.
2013 vivid rc2 = top 50 PRO riders only
top 50 PRO riders only = 97% consumers
97% consumers = ROCKSHOX ad tah dah!!! Now available to the public
ROCKSHOX ad tah dah!!! Now available to the public = HUGE $$$$$$$$ vivid rc2
HUGE $$$$$$$$ vivid rc2 = fox’s rc4 price
fox’s rc4 price = mike levy
Anything over three inches of travel, with less than 27 gears, more than 1" headtube and with hydraulic brakes is waaay more than I need for my skill level...yet, I ride a 38lb 7" travel bike because every time I run out of skill having more equipment than I need has saved my life...I guess RS doesn't care about my health...Thanks RS!
A bladder literally has NO stiction, whereas an IFP has massive stiction detracting from damping performances. I also recon it should last at least as long as the o-ring on IFP's. Think about drive belts and all their applications, they fatigue so slowly, and only because they dry out; which they dont in an oil bath. And, I doubt it, but if cavitation could be reduced if the IFP moved faster (less stiction, less friction, lower mass), a bladder would be the solutiont: no stiction, éven lower friction (just viscosity of the rubber really) and probably less mass too. Furthermore a bladder thermally insulates the air from the oil and from the barrel, so the shock is less affected by heat buildup (the air also cools down slower, but that heat didnt get in there in the first place). I never gave it much thought but wtf.. could someone tell us why not all shocks run a bladder? Sealing is super easy too.
Forget about those jokers - buy Cane Creek/DVO/BOS/Elka/Xfusion...
You f%$*ing sh@£ sm%@~ing fu£%ing turkey!
Did he really say that?
And here I thought it was 2013.
Well so who is registered and will send me air version?
BWHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAA hhaahaahahaaaaaaa!!! SUCKAS!
Any ideas anybody?
www.bikemag.com/news/news-of-the-tweet-97-percent-of-the-internet-is-as-dumb-as-a-hammer